The use of A-levels? [Archive]

student88

4th Jan 2009, 22:24

Unless you are wishing to apply for sponsorships which require them or the forces, in my opinion, they are of little use when it comes down to job hunting.

That said, in the current climate, they might give you something to do whilst this recession blows over. They do offer you something to fall back on and allow you to progress your career into other areas if all fails on the flying front. You should take a look at your position and weigh things up. If you're at the age where you're making the decision to either stay on at school after your GCSE's - I'd suggest you carry on with the A Levels. Many say that you can never have enough qualifications.

Some people say that if it comes down to an airline having two similar candidates, one with a levels, one without - they'll choose the one with. That probably never happens, and even if it did - they'd choose personality over high school education. Person a might have 2 A grades in Maths and Physics but he's a right pillock - his qualifications wont get him the job.

bjkeates

4th Jan 2009, 22:29

I would suggest that a grasp of certain A-level concepts in Maths and Physics in particular will give you a good foundation for studying certain aspects of the ATPL Theory. It's not strictly necessary, but in my opinion it is extremely useful.

I know it doesn't answer your specific question, but it's something to consider nevertheless.

Bealzebub

4th Jan 2009, 22:48

Some people say that if it comes down to an airline having two similar candidates, one with a levels, one without - they'll choose the one with. That probably never happens, and even if it did - they'd choose personality over high school education. Person a might have 2 A grades in Maths and Physics but he's a right pillock - his qualifications wont get him the job.

Except the reality is the airline doesn't have two similar candidates, it has hundreds. The grades will be used as one method of whittling the lists down to a managable level for interview. Unless you get as far as the interview, your personality is going to have little chance to shine. However imprecise a science it may be, A-levels at good grade and in the right subjects, show the selectors that a candidate made good choices in relevant subjects and appeared to apply the necessary levels of study and aptitude to achieve the grades that they did. For a job that will continue to require the incumbent to apply the necessary levels of study and achieve a high standard (and grade,) that is significant.

In the current and forseeable market, good grades will (in the absence of significant relevant experience) be a likely prerequisite for interview, simply because so many candidates will have them. Personality is a factor at interview, but in itself will not compensate for a lack of accreditable application and achievement. If achievement and personality are required and Candidate "A" has the former but not the latter, and candidate "B" has the latter but not the former, then "A" is likely to get the interview then fail to progress, "B" is likley to get a "Thank you for your interest" letter, and the rest of the alphabet and scores beside will be queueing up to satisfy the limited number of vacancies actually on offer.

Best advice is apply well armed.

Re-Heat

8th Jan 2009, 00:18

Yes, there are people who don't have them who have managed just fine, and are flying, but if you can't display a reasonable academic background, you are placing yourself at a serious disadvantage, and have yet to display the ability to knuckle down and pass some tough exams (even if you actually hold that skill now).

georgesantos17

15th Jan 2009, 13:38

The moral is this, do not listen to anyone when they say do not bother with A Levels. They are very important indeed although some airlines do not factor them in, you do not stand a chance over people who have them, expecially if you do not have the money to go Self Sponsored, you want to be attaining the maximum grade to knock everyone else over when it comes to assessment time. ;)

Conclusion - A Levels are extremely important and show how dedicated you are to becoming a pilot.

If you want this career so much, you would obtain A Levels to get to where you want to be in life. True fact! :)

George

4engines4longhaul

15th Jan 2009, 14:37

As a Captain on a wide body jet, I can say that my lack of O and A levels has not held me back. That said though, it continues to surprise me how many F/Os need a calculator for the most simple of tasks. Quick quiz...

Flt plan fuel to JFK is 60,000kg.
Estimated ZFW IS 240,000kg.
Note at bottom of Plan says 285kg per 1000kg change in ZFW.
Final ZFW comes through from Traffic at 237800kg.

How much are you to change your final fuel to?

If you can work it out in about 10 seconds without a calculator then good, and it doesn't matter what qualifications you have. If you need a calculator which many seem to need then Maths O level is definitely getting easier! Rant from grumpy old timer over!

Wee Weasley Welshman

15th Jan 2009, 15:34

Answer - nothing. You're going to keep the fuel because you know the pushback will be all screwed up, you'll be number 12 for departure and there's gonna be 15 minutes in the hold that the plan doesn't allow for.

You make a very valid point. Two in fact.

Mental arithmetic is possibly the only useful skill that basic schooling gives a pilot. And. I've got two degrees, the best pilot I ever flew with left school at 15. If makes Jack.

When you're young you get a lot of messages that education is important and that school grades are key. Once you've reached middle age you realise that this is a crock of brown stuff. That's not to say encouraging children and youths to study hard by telling them that is important is a bad thing.. its just a white lie.

So don't hang yourselves up about grades and degrees. You are entering a profession whereby you're all licensed by the same authority and judged every six months by your peers. There is nowhere to hide. You're only as good as your last sim check and the good can become rubbish and the rubbish can become brilliant. That aspect of the job is a pressure but its actually quite satisfying. You are held to account twice a year under a microscope. Not many professions have that.

The saddest thing I ever experienced was someone I knew distantly who committed suicide because he mucked up his A Levels. It really didn't matter but to him, at that point in his life, it was life and death important.

Its important to be clever. Quick witted. Nice. Well read. Its important to have friends and have fun and be nice to your atrocious parents. Success at school is commendable but its small in comparison to the rest of your life.

By the time you're 30 ( I *know* you can't imagine that horror ) nobody will ever ask you what you studied or what you scored at school or university and you still have three decades of work ahead.

WWW

ps I had 4 A's 3 B's and a C at GCSE and 1 A, 2 B's at A-level but that was back in the early 1990's when exams were exams unlike now ;)

Nashers

15th Jan 2009, 15:39

FTOs will say min 5 GCSEs, but they want your money.

with an Airline you want their money. do you realy think they will rather have someone who has done GCSEs then learnt to fly for a couple of years, rather than someone who has work experiance and a degree somewhere else, then gone into flying? who would you trust more with one of your jets?

have a search through some of the threads discussing "should i/ should i not got to university". that will give you an idea of what people are saying.

Wee Weasley Welshman

15th Jan 2009, 16:09

You're 24, went to University, can't spell, have atrocious grammar, structure and vocabulary - why would I trust you with one of my jets over someone with no degree and no A-levels again?

WWW

4engines4longhaul

15th Jan 2009, 18:25

I have to say that I agree with WWW. Possibly the worst grammar I have ever read Nasher.
If you read through earlier threads on educational backgrounds, I think you will find the general view that a degree or at least a good education is valuable, but that this has little to do with pilot selection or ability, simply that it affords the individual a better oppurtunity in life in the event they do not become a pilot.

WWW. SOP these days is to knock 600kg's off the fuel figure. Oh how things have changed. Can't even get the engineers to put a splash on for the wife and kids these days:bored:

georgesantos17

15th Jan 2009, 20:30

Well adding on to what I said, university degrees will only get you further up in the airline if anything. Not at all necessary and puts you at no advantage to other candidates. Also your education at A Level is just as important if not more than any other aspects of your life. Bear in mind airlines look for a balanced person so make sure you can priorities your time correctly to maintain a sufficient balance between working and having fun. All in all, university gets you no where in this field and A levels do.

lukeharvest

15th Jan 2009, 21:14

I had 4 A's 3 B's and a C at GCSE and 1 A, 2 B's at A-level but that was back in the early 1990's when exams were exams unlike now

There's actually hardly any difference in the level of difficulty between Maths (Further Maths), Physics, Chemistry and Biology, to name a few A-Levels, now, to when you took them in the 90s.

Of course there may be 1 in 4 people achieving a Grade A at A-Level now, but that's not due to the Science/Maths A-Levels getting easier, it's due to the introduction of 'softer' subjects, such as Photography, Sociology, Accounting, Media Studies for example, courses that originally were aimed at lower-achieving Students, but have caught on and have overtaken Science/Maths.

aviatordom

15th Jan 2009, 21:30

lukeharvest

15th Jan 2009, 22:28

I've just got a C in one of my GCSE Maths Exams, which was foundation tier, i got 73 out of 75, which indicates that i am working incredibly well at my target grade.

I'm allowed to do a resit in March for the higher tier paper, meaning that i can get up to an A*

That's all good, but i'm absolutely c**p at mental arithmetic, i'll be honest now, i was simply staggered by the fuel question someone posted in this topic.

If i'm this bad at Maths, would it be possible for me to do Maths A-level and find it easier, if i start learning maths PROPERLY outside of school starting from i.e now?

For literally all Flight Schools you'll be put through Pilot Aptitude tests (numerous of them), where Physics and Maths play a heavy part of that process; especially Mental Arithmetic; the tests that involve Mental Arithmetic are very pushed for time, to disallow the candidate from trying to manually work it out, that fuel question is exactly the style of questions in the Aptitude tests.

The Oxford Aviation Academy Aptitude test (for Maths) comprises of 24 questions to be answered in 20 minutes, not giving candidates enough time to work it out in any other way than mentally.

BerksFlyer

15th Jan 2009, 23:08

There's actually hardly any difference in the level of difficulty between Maths (Further Maths), Physics, Chemistry and Biology, to name a few A-Levels, now, to when you took them in the 90s.

I can vouch for that, during revision for AS Maths I used a few 90s papers and they're no different to the current ones. Don't believe what you read in the Mail, you know how awful their aviation coverage and I can assure you their educational coverage is just as poor.

chai ja

26th Jan 2009, 09:38

Oi! nashers I havent done A Levels or Degrees but doesnt not allow me to fly the Airbus! See you tomorrow mate

preduk

26th Jan 2009, 13:09

I agree with WWW.

I done really well at school getting 8 Standard Grades (GSCEs) and going on to get 5 Highers and 3 Advanced Highers however when I left school no one would even touch me because I had no experience. It showed me how unimportant high school grades were in the real world, apart from when you're applying for University.

I then went on to do a University degree, but again I don't plan on getting a job with it, it's only for a backup career if things go wrong.

clear prop!!!

26th Jan 2009, 13:41

Agree with most of the above, however, if you look at most airline application forms, there is a large section devoted to your educational background.

As has been said above,... if it's you with nothing and another candidate with straight 'A's then chances are HR will make an uninformed choice.

That said that once you are 'in the system' it's experience that matters although I did have a bit of a soft shoe shuffle over my grades at one interview.

It now looks as if getting an interview is the hard bit and the more boxes you can tick the better...remember, it's these new fangled HR bods that seem to call the shots:ugh:

preduk

26th Jan 2009, 13:53

I forgot to add, even though they aren't relevant in the real world it's no excuse not to do your damn hardest to get good grades!

corsair

29th Jan 2009, 15:30

For literally all Flight Schools you'll be put through Pilot Aptitude tests (numerous of them),

That's not true, sure OAA does and FTE and no doubt one or two others. But most don't. One FTO introduced a test. I asked the one of the senior Instructors why. He said it was because a competitor had one and it gave the impression to the potential student that he or she has passed something difficult and thus reassured them they had the 'right stuff'. Plus, more cynically, it was yet another revenue stream.

Like it or not aptitude tests prove you're good at aptitude tests. School exams are to get you into university and lack of them doesn't stop anyone from becoming a pilot or indeed a millionaire.

DanielClarke

23rd Feb 2009, 18:24

Well, I'm a 15 year old student and I am doing all higher papers, meaning that I can get A* in everything if I am determined enough :)

I am not a major fan of Physics as it is not my 'forte'. However, I believe I HAVE to take it at A level to prove to the airlines that I have knowledge in Physics.

This may sound idiotic, but is Physics a major factor in written exams for your licenses?

Also, do all commercial pilots have a PPL?

Thanks,

Daniel.

preduk

23rd Feb 2009, 18:35

Yes they all started off with a PPL.

White Otter

23rd Feb 2009, 18:36

All you NEED to take is your ATPLs. Sure some may like Physics but I'd be surprised if they looked at a 1000hr PIC application and turned it down in favour of a 250hr one due to one not having Physics (and this coming from somebody who took Physics).

DanielClarke

23rd Feb 2009, 18:41

Haha, very true indeed.

Thanks for that, I think I may take Physics just improve my knowledge for those infamous written exams :uhoh:

Straight after Uni I better get out there and get my PPL.

I have no flying experience as of yet, so say if I went to an airline to train, would I get my PPL there then gradually mount up those licenses/certificates?

1mag1n3

23rd Feb 2009, 22:00

Hey dude.

I am currently doing physics at A2 level as well as Maths, Further Maths, and Geography. I believe that they will all come in handy in the future. I was looking at the ATPL syllabi and saw that quite a substantial amount of A Level Physics, Maths and Geography come up. Weather from Geography. Mechanics from Maths and Physics. They do seem to overlap- even if it is very minor. It also shows the people at the FTO's that you took subjects with becoming a pilot in mind, which I deem to be essential. Whether it is true or not is another matter, however it does show that you have had the passion for longer than a few months,i.e massive enthusiasm etc.

I mean, I know guys who have A Levels and have gotten sponsorships with ACD, one guy with two C's. Hopefully if all goes well for me I should get AAA in (Further) Maths and Geography and then a B or a C in Physics depending on re-sits.

The Physics A Level does contain some random stuff mind, with only one module of the 6 on Mechanics which relates to flying. The rest is on particles, nuclear instability, quantum theory and all that jazz. I decided to self teach Mechanics 2 to myself in Maths as well as doing Mechanics 1 in lessons, and have yet to sit these both. Hopefully having drove myself to self teach the extra module will show a passion to extend knowledge blah blah...

One thing I do think is good about A-Levels is the fact it bridges the gap between School and coming to apply to FTO's at the grand old age of 18, if this is what you want.

Imagine in an interview;
"So, since school what have you done with your time up until today?"

"Well sir......"

I mean if you were working and getting a PPL fair enough; but if you say you balanced A Levels and a PPL as well as a job and sporting commitments and social aspects then it does sound pretty impressive!

Just my thoughts anyway...
Take what you will from it :ok:

F/O UFO

24th Feb 2009, 07:07

Hmmm, not so sure about the relevance of A-level physics. Certainly not my syllabus anyway! Very limated in flying related stuff. I have managed to base my courseworks on flying themes- for example thermocouples in RR Trent engines!

I did maths and physics because I saw that many flight schools want Maths and a science- in hindsight mabye I should have done subjects I was good at. We will see!

I would recommend doing an extended project. search this on google. It's basically a qualification in whatever you want. Mine was on the aerodynamics and design of 737-NGs. I learnt more about flying doing that than maths of physics.

Mach086

24th Feb 2009, 07:41

I think the question of "The Use of A-Levels" was a little broad and should be broken into 2 questions with 2 totally different answers:

1. Do you need A-levels to fly a plane?

No- who cares. As others have said, you are only as good as your last sim check, etc.

2. Do you need A-Levels to get the all-important interview - especially in this market where there are hundreds of applicants for one position?

Obviously.

Fair enough, once at that interview you could turn out to be someone with the personality of cushion. But the top guy who also has the same licence as you, first time passes blah blah and who you could chat to for a 12 hour flight may never get a look-in, just becasue his/her CV never stood out.

I got sh!t A-Levels.

However, at Uni, I got a Degree in Aeronautical Engineering.
Will this get me an interview over other low-hour cadets? I bloody hope so.

Do I have the personality of a cushion? Maybe:ok:

Edited:

That fuel question? WTF! - so No. You don't need A-levels or a degree to fly a plane. But it "might" get you into the interview room.

Groundloop

24th Feb 2009, 13:46

Also, do all commercial pilots have a PPL?

Yes they all started off with a PPL.

Once again preduk leaps in with incorrect information. You need a PPL if you intend to follow modular training but do not need, or even get, a PPL if you follow an integrated course.

Please do NOT use this to start another modular v integrated rant. I was just correcting wrong information.

G SXTY

24th Feb 2009, 14:54

GCSEs, A levels and degrees are not required to fly an aeroplane, and once you have decent commercial experience on your CV (e.g. 500hrs multi-crew or an unfrozen ATPL) then school or even university qualifications are pretty meaningless.

That said, in order to get commercial experience, you need to get a job, which means getting an interview. As Bealzebub points out, airlines are constantly deluged with low-hours CVs, and they all look very similar. Everyone with a wet-ink CPL is reliable, enthusiastic, willing to relocate etc - the only things that differentiate candidates are life and/or work experience (subjective) and academic and/or training records (easy to measure objectively and very easy to filter).

If I was in charge of flight crew recruitment and wanted to keep the number of CVs down to manageable levels, I'd certainly impose a minimum level of academic achievement. You would be wise to aim for the best grades you can at school, including A levels.

F/O UFO

24th Feb 2009, 15:03

It should be noted that in getting a fATPL you can exercise all the privileges of a PPL.

Back onto the A-levels. I did maths and physics because thats what I need to do, even if it is meerly to tick some boxes on an application form. I know this is not the case for all flight schools- but to give myself the best chance, I thought this was the right idea.

I agree with 1mag1n3, I think (or at least I hope) it does show commitment. Maths and physics are'nt easy subjects- and they are harder when they're not your best subjects either!!

DanielClarke

24th Feb 2009, 15:41

Thanks for that :)

I would rather get straight into the CPL rather than getting a PPL.

Is 'hour building' a strong suggestion to get those hours up and make my CV look better when I get to that stage?

Also, may I ask what is the difference between integrated and modular?

I will research in the meantime :}

EDIT- I just researched,

So Integrated is all in one go like a school subject for example. Whereas, Modular is split up?

I was looking at Oxford Aviation Academy and they look very good.

Would they cover the basics of Meteorology etc?

F/O UFO

24th Feb 2009, 16:34

They will cover ATPL theory, like any other integrated school.

The main integrated schools you should consider are (and in order of my preference);

CTC
Flight Training Europe
Oxford Aviation Academy
Bristol Aviation
Cabair

As far as modular flight training goes there are a million and 1 different flight schools who would train you; in this country and around the world.

You are right, integrated is kind of an all-in-one package. You go to one flight school (usually with little or no flying experience) and come out with fATPL (or mabye MPL now). By going the modular route you will also aim to end up with an 'fATPL' but you can split up the 'modules' and do them where ever. Search this forum for there is a wealth of information in everything- including the modular v integrated debate!

Mach086

25th Feb 2009, 07:51

I would not take F/O UFO's advice on finding the Modular Vs Intergrated debate.:ok:

Simple search for posts by a guy called AFRAZ. He will tell you everything you need to know. :}

mtanz0

25th Feb 2009, 21:01

I wouldn't trust someone who wasn't capable/couldn't be arsed doing A-levels or some form of higher/further education to fly me anywhere. Simply don't have enough grasp of physics to understand the consequences of their actions.

RobStob

25th Feb 2009, 23:03

You may not need a PPL if you're pursuing the integrated route, however I have just received a place on the CTC Wings Cadet scheme and the initial phase out in NZ gives you a 72 hour PPL.

As far as the debate with A-levels goes, is it not pertinent to address the fact studying A-levels promotes dedication, hard work and comittment, which are absolutely integral to studies within commerical flight training? They undoubtedly make you a more well-rounded person and certainly more intelligent and competent. Take English, for example: studying it will provide you with sound grammar and sophisticated articulation, which will undoubtedly make a good impression and get you much further than someone who is illiterate or educated to an inferior level to you. You have to consider how people perceive you on face value, and how you can enhance your presentation in every way to an employer.

It's not a question of if you need 'A-levels' to fly an aircraft, it's whether you have the necessary intelligence/aptitude there to begin with and are willing to learn and better yourself.