Licensed vice Non-Licensed Airfields in the UK

[SASless]

In the CHC thread there has been a bit of discussion about whether North Denes is a licensed airfield or not. There was also mention of approved operations that can be conducted there if it is licensed and not if it is unlicensed.

Can anyone explain the CAA thinking behind allowing Public Transport operations from an unlicensed airfield (non-scheduled only) but not allow type/license training to be conducted at the same unlicensed airfield?

By unscheduled.....does that mean the flights must be completely ad hoc....and not leave at the same time each day?

If we find North Denes to be an unlicensed airfield for some period of time...does that invalidate all training that took place there during that period and thus warrant a CAA investigation into that situation with a view towards invalidating every pilot license involved in the illegal training?

If the place is/was unlicensed....and one conducted IFR approaches to the airfield on an IRR....does that invalidate the IRR?

I fear a huge bucket of worms could be caused should the airfield actually be unlicensed.....or am I wrong in thinking that?

[Whirlygig]

Can anyone explain the CAA thinking
I doubt it - it rather presupposes that a thought process was involved :}

Cheers

Whirls

[TCAS FAN]

There is nothing which indicates that North Denes is "notified" (the legal term) as a licensed aerodrome/heliport. To be "notified" it needs to either be shown in the UK AIP or NOTAM. I can find no record in either.

As to the legality of conducting certain types of flights, you need to refer to the ANO Article 126. It may be interest to know that my understanding, after discussion with relevant CAA Departments, is that the aircraft commander is ultimately responsible for determining if his/her flight requires use of a licensed aerodrome, and if it does, establishing that the relevant aerodrome is licensed at the time of flight. However, the aerodrome operator (if licensed) is responsible for notifying any changes to the licensed state.

As for apparently carrying out instrument approaches to an unlicensed aerodrome, while operating public transport, without Air Traffic Control (not A/G), is this really correct? The UK normally requires ATC, or exceptionally AFIS if ATC is available from an adjacent unit (Barrow Walney Island springs to mind), have never come across using A/G. There must be something that has not been mentioned that has caused CAA to agree to such an operation.

[Bravo73]

There is nothing which indicates that North Denes is "notified" (the legal term) as a licensed aerodrome/heliport. To be "notified" it needs to either be shown in the UK AIP or NOTAM. I can find no record in either.

That's not necessarily true. Costock 'heliport' (9 miles east of East Midlands Airport) is a licensed CAA site but it doesn't appear in the UK AIP.

There is, however, an entry for Great Yarmouth (North Denes) EGSD in the Pooley's Flight Guide.



SAS,

My understanding of the 'training at a licensed site' only applied to ab-initio or initial training. This is due to the requirement for fire cover that you get at a licensed site.

[slyguy]

Let me set you straight.

North denes is not liceneced

it does have ATC service 7 days a week 0600-2300 hrs. It has 2 NDB approach which also use the DME at Norwich. all of this is approved by the CAA for approved operators i.e CHC, Bristow etc. The CAA audit the aerodrome and its facilities annually.

North denes does however fully operate to CAP 168 the licencing of aerodromes. the only part that it doesnt comply with is the security arrangements, i.e fencing area controls etc. It was not in the past deemed necessary to fence the 37 acre airfield in, but in the current state of the world this is now being looked at as is licensing. It does have a full H2 fire service available during all opening hours.

The ATC service is now supplied by Marshalls who also operate Norwich airport, this i belive now includes a limited radar service.

there is now no need for CHC staff to conduct an A to G service, although for an out of hours medivac, this may be an option, if this was done, it is as always the pilots discretion whether to use Denes as the return option, depending on conditions.

hope this clears things a little

[RedWhite&Blue]

Thanks Slyguy - we're getting there... Slowly.

One point - try callng the Tower after 18.30. You will get a response from Denes Radio. No ATC currently from Denes after 18.30 local. Just A to G.

Currently the 'on airport' training requirements for a type rating are conducted at Norwich and sometimes Wattisham.

TCAS FAN - Both instrument approachs can be made outside the towers normal operating times. A note on the plate makes it clear however that contact with Radar must be maintained.

[LXGB]

The ATC service is now supplied by Marshalls who also operate Norwich airport, this i belive now includes a limited radar service.


Didn't know Norwich ATC was done by Marshalls. Are you sure about that? Who's providing a "limited radar service"?

[the beater]

Only training for the issue of a licence or rating needs to be carried out from a licensed airfield. I can quite legally revalidate a rating from your back garden. It's only for the issue of a licence or rating that I would be required to conduct the training and test from a licensed place.
So yes, you are wrong.
Very wrong.:mad:

[SASless]

What is the logic behind that edict from on high?

What difference is the quality of training at either place...licensed or un-licensed?

I can see a requirement to operate out of a controlled airfield at some point in one's training but all of one's training?

What maneuvers are done on a revalidation ride as compared to the initial check ride that would make any difference?

....or is this just some more CAA bureaucratic mindset?

[Camp Freddie]

mr sasless,

I can see a requirement to operate out of a controlled airfield at some point in one's training but all of one's training?

a licenced airfield does not neccesarily mean that it has an ATC service, there are many examples of licensed airfields with A/G service, where effectively you are doing what you like.

e.g. white waltham, leicester are the first 2 i can think of.

regards

CF

[SASless]

CF,

So in the UK one can do your license/initial rating and not be required to operate at an airfield with ATC?

So....if a licensed airfield does not have to have ATC....what makes the difference between the two types of airfields? (Besides the License!)

[nigelh]

Sasless ... you just dont get it do you:rolleyes: We are brits and common sense doesnt come into it . We are programmed to obey without question . If the caa says you have to wear a blue shirt for a revalidation but a white one for ppl training ....then we do it :ok: That is why we have the morons we deserve governing us .......and THAT is why we ( professional pilots ) are all going to be unemployed soon . THAT is the CAA way:D and the joke is ....WE pay them :{:{ but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go.

[Bladecrack]

Nigel,

I don't think it is fair to blame the CAA for the state of the UK economy and the fact that lots of pilots are being made unemployed, thats down to the government.. :yuk:

BC

(Perhaps that what you meant?)

[Bravo73]

So....if a licensed airfield does not have to have ATC....what makes the difference between the two types of airfields? (Besides the License!)

SASsy,

A licenced airfield/site has fire cover. That's the important difference.

[SASless]

So.......having fire cover is the reason all that training must be done at a licensed airfield?

Why is it I am a bit.....well.....errrrr.....dubious of that being all that important?

Why would "fire cover" be more important than say....ATC?

So on a cross country flight for training....where one was to be doing an approach to a hover...then departing again for the next stop....one has to have fire cover to be legal for initial/rating training? But....not for any flying after you have your license or rating? Now that makes complete sense to me....NOT!

Nigel is right.....you guys are out of your minds to accept such bovine fecal matter!

Perhaps you might find some salt water somewhere and start chucking some CAA folks into the briny!

[windowseatplease]

Another curious thing is that you need a whole host of paperwork and approvals to conduct type rating training, yet you can setup as a 'registered facility' pretty easily (eg a portacabin in the corner of a field) and teach PPL students.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go

'where to go' is a short way of saying, providing feedback direct to the Authority with informed (rant free) criticism, appropriate reasoning, supporting evidence and indication of level of support from others?

[Ken Wells]

Sasless ... you just dont get it do you We are brits and common sense doesnt come into it . We are programmed to obey without question . If the caa says you have to wear a blue shirt for a revalidation but a white one for ppl training ....then we do it That is why we have the morons we deserve governing us .......and THAT is why we ( professional pilots ) are all going to be unemployed soon . THAT is the CAA way and the joke is ....WE pay them but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go.

Have to agree, look at the :mad:High VIZ vest crap! and increased CAA charges to cover their increased costs. Wouldn't occur to them to reduce their own costs first!!!!. Just look at how many Home Guaud they employ at reception at Gatwick and subsidised canteen, expensive buildings etc etc.:ugh:

[Bravo73]

Why would "fire cover" be more important than say....ATC?


I always presumed that the requirement for fire cover was because there is potentially a higher risk of bending an aircraft during initial or ab-initio training. The fire crew need to be there to help pull anyone out of the wreckage. :uhoh:



Bravo73, according to a post above North Denes has H2 fire cover - so why isn't it licensed :ugh::p?

Fire cover is obviously a requirement for licencing. But having fire cover doesn't automatically grant a facility a licence. I've got no idea why North Denes isn't licenced. :p

[Camp Freddie]

TorqueStripe / Bravo73,

I've got no idea why North Denes isn't licenced.

as discussed on the CHC thread, I dont know all of the reasons but one of which is a lack of perimeter fence

Mrs whirlygig also said on the other thread that it was licensed in 2003, when she did her qualifying cross country, I believe she is mistaken and should keep quiet in case her PPL gets suspended till she does another qual X-C :)

regards

CF

[RedWhite&Blue]

I think you will find that North Denes is not licenced for one reason and one reason only.

The owners (formally Bond and now CHC) didn't/don't want it to be.

To be licenced would incur even higher CAA charges, and to what end?

[Sir George Cayley]

STOP RIGHT THERE, thank you very much:=

I need a ...... d'oh

CAA - SchmeeAA. Got **** all to do wiv 'em.:ugh:

Direct your attention ladies and gentlement to the Air Navigation Order 2005.
Turn to article, er article.. oh it's late you find it.

It's the DfT who set out the rules for which sites require to be licensed, once decided it's the CAA who administer the discharge of the States function under Annex 14 of the 1949 Chicago Convention. Jeeez, doan they teach you anything these days?:\

Helicopters only need to land and take off from a licensed heliport or aerodrome under specific conditions as set out in the ANO. This applies to fixed wing ops too, but are different to heliocopeterers.

A to A, A to B, weight, training, scheduled PT and other criteria also apply.
I've read the pages time and time again and get a different meaning each time. How those loverly peeps at the Belgrano work it out beats me.

AOC heli ops are overseen by the Flight Ops Dept (H) of the CAA btw.

Once EASA take over all will be made clear. Alles klar:D

Sir George Cayley

[RedWhite&Blue]

Um... i think I get your point.

The Authority has for years been trying to convince CHC (and Bond/HS before them) of the advantages of North Denes being 'Licensed'.

There is no reason the aerodrome has to be licensed, and so to date it is not.

I think you will find that a fairly punchy cheque will have to change hands to purchase any aerodrome license. So the owners of the aerodrome avoid the costs and also the obligations that come with it.

Rest assured that if it had to be the Authority would ensure it was.

Maybe the day will come.

[nigelh]

Fairweatherflyer......your name suits you . It is due to people like you that we have ended up in such a terrible mess:ugh: There have to be rules in all aspects of life but i have never felt the need follow the daft ones . Who cares if a field is licenced or not ?? If the caa say it doesnt count ....put a different one in your log book :eek: who gives a sh*t:ugh:
I say if its safe and sensible ...its legal ( and tell them where to go :ok: )

[Whirlygig]

As part of my PPL course, (i.e. training requiring a licenced airfield) I landed at North Denes for my qualifying cross-country under an agreement between the school and Scotia. The CAA did not bat an eye-lid. So, was my flight valid? :confused:

I was lead to believe that North Denes was licenced at that time (2003).

Cheers

Whirls

[finalchecksplease]

Whirlygig,

If not does that mean you will have to hand back that new, shiny license?:E
BTW congrats for that.:ok:

Greetings,

Finalchecksplease

[Camp Freddie]

whirlygig,

So, was my flight valid?

well done on your CPL ! , as for your X-C in 2003 you have the licence so forget it :)

regards

CF

[Whirlygig]

Thanks guys :ok: you detected the panic in my writing :} As an anally-retentive auditor, these things bother me.

However, I remember the chaps there were very hospitable, showed me round, explained the ops .

Cheers

Whirls

[niknak]

North Denes is licensed by the CAA, but only for IFR/VFR ops by CHC and VFR ops by other helicopter operators authorised by CHC (ie the CAA have delegated CHC with the authority to permit such movements subject to CAA restrictions).
Fixed wing a/c are not permitted to land at the airfield at any time.

Further to what Slyguy wrote;
Denes does have the NDB approach to 10 and 26, but the approaches can only be used in conjunction with the DME at Norwich by CHC , Bristow can only use it for legitimate training purposes and not for revenue flights.
Norwich Airport and ATC is not, never has been and never will be run by Marshalls.
Norwich ATC do not provide a radar service of any sort for Denes.

[SASless]

Nigelh,

The problem with not obeying the "daft" rules is they are enforced by the "daft" basters that concoct the things.:mad:

The old adage of "Who is the Fool....the Fool...or the Man arguing with the Fool?" springs to mind when dealing with the CAA.:ugh:

[RedWhite&Blue]

Niknak

Are you leading readers to believe that North Denes is either a civil licensed aerodrome or a civil licensed heliport as is the theme of this thread?

If so I think it may be worth checking your facts.

It may be of interest that the tower at Denes is now operated by Marshalls and I believe this is the case at Norwich too

The instrument aproaches are to 09 and 27.

Bored of this thread now:zzz:

[niknak]

RWB

I know my facts, clearly you don't, but I'll repeat myself so that you can sleep restfully.

I know that Marshalls have the ATC contract at Denes, I never disputed that.

Marshalls have never had the ATC contract at Norwich.

The runway at Denes is 10/28.

Denes is a CAA licensed airfield but only for the purposes of CHC IFR and VFR operations, CHC in turn are authorised to allow other helicopter operators to operate in to Denes on a VFR basis only.

Night night.

[RedWhite&Blue]

Niknak. Ok I'll take the bait.

I know my facts, clearly you don't, but I'll repeat myself so that you can sleep restfully

I fly off the runway most days of my working life. I can assure you that the runways, for which there are instrument approaches, are now 09 and 27.

Oh and 18 - 36 for vfr day light ops only.

Your info is somewhat out of date.

ATB

Red

[niknak]

RWB

Which airfield are you talking about?

I was refering to Denes.:confused:

[RedWhite&Blue]

NikNak

Me too.

[Camp Freddie]

niknak,

magnetic variation is reducing in the UK, that might have something to do with runway number issues

regards

CF

[nigelh]

Sasless ....beautifully put. You may well have a point:confused: but it does keep me amused so i may as well carry on:ok:

[jellycopter]

Here's another silly rule to ponder.....

To license an airfield for fixed-wing ops the fire crew must be able to reach any licensed portion of the field and start dispensing extinguishant within 3 minutes of call out. To license for helicopter ops, they must do the same but in 2 minutes!

WAFLOB!

JJ

[SASless]

Jelly,

So if I use Heathrow and land at the far end of the runway....the Fire Brigade has two minutes to respond.....or Coventry...or Aberdeen...or.......now just what is the possibility of that happening?

The fire bell goes off.....and the hose holders have to put down the cards, pick up their boots and turnout gear...man the wagons...and get to the end of the runway in three minutes? Yeah, right!

[jellycopter]

Yes. It's why my local airfield is only licensed for fixed wing and not helicopters. Some airfields only license specific portions for helicopters, ie the helipads, to ensure they meet the more stringent 2 minute criteria. Nonsense! JJ:ugh: