Comparison - EC, Bell, Agusta

[Cyclone7]

I am currently advising a company that intend buying a new chopper - they want range, speed and comfort mainly, and still have to decide whether to go for a single or twin. Operating conditions will be 5 000 feet and hot, seating up to 6 ( with reasonable baggage space ).

I was wondering if I could pick the brains out there and hopefully get some pertinent comments - to help us make the final decision - on the following types in their classes :

Singles - Bell 407 vs A 119 Kaola vs EC 130

Twins - EC 135 vs A 109. The new Bell 429 is just too new to get a feel for.

Much obliged, over and out to the experts.

[Makiwa]

Hang on there a minute... :=

You're supposed to be the expert if you are "advising"!

Sheesh, I hope this is a sideline for you and you're not charging a consultant fee for the "service" you are providing... :ugh:

[helopat]

I think you're right, the Bell 429 is still undergoing it certification, so you probably won't get any advice from experienced drivers on this forum.

I drive the A109E and know some folks who drive the Grand. I think you'll find it is a very easy flying, comfortable machine. The A109 has all the above; range (if you're not encumbered with lots of pax/baggage), speed (both machines have cruise at 130kias or better) and comfort (dependent on what the customer wants from the manufacturer). Baggage space is fairly good (don't have the actual dimensions or weight limit on hand). However, when you're talking about six people (and a pilot = 7) and baggage you need to ask some more specific questions. For example, with those 6 people on board each with just a small overnight kit bag, you're not going to get really long range (necessary, at least with the A109E to manage AUW so its either fuel or pax/baggage). Another thing to think about is whether your employer wants a new or used machine. As I understand it, new machines are taking a fairly long time to come off the assembly line...not entirely sure what used A109 availability is like.

I've seen the EC-135 but haven't flown it. Lots of glass in the aircraft so great in flight visibility (especially for crew) but I'm not sure on range, AUW, etc.

Hope this helps.

HP

[Lutefisk989]

For high DA, I would certainly prefer a twin...but, as always, that comes at a cost.

[BlenderPilot]

Well although 5000 is not really too high, you still need some good performance if it's going to be hot, I would narrow your decision to the only smart choices,

You asked about the EC130, Koala, and Bell 407, I would skip the 130 right away, in my experience Eurocopter can be a pain supportwise, and if you have a choice? The Koala has very good performance, speed, but it's more expensive than the 407, the latter, is proven, economical, has great performance, has great support.

Between the EC135 and the 109E there is a world in difference in performance, the Agusta being much better, I fly Power landing and taking off at altitudes between 7.5 and 8.5 K FTAMSL, it's as good as it gets.

Then I have a fried who operates the 135 at hot and high and it's marginal.

[Choppie]

Well if you were looking at singles then why not look at the AS350B3 which will out perform the others any day. Yes you may have delay problems with Eurocopter maintenance at some time but I think the helicopter is still worth it. Squirrels just dont break. The little experience I have on the Koala, you need a permanent engineer on site.

[Cyclone7]

After over 35 years in the helicopter industry, I still feel I am learning every day - maybe some folks are just ill tempered because they got such a lesson in cricket.

I will briefly outline my pedigree, lets see this great forum assess any other smart..s out there who has no constructive input.
I am ex AF, have over 20 000 hours on choppers, over 20 types on license, instructor rated and currently flying twins offshore in Angola.

The MD of the company buying the new machine is a personal friend of mine, and trusts me to do my best on the final selection - which is exactly what I am trying to do. Hence my resorting to this forum, to glean what I can from other more knowledgeable pilots.

It just so happens that of the 5 types being considered, I have only flown the Bell 407. I have flown the Bell 427 and EC 120, so at least have some experience of those manufacturers.

I appreciate the useful comments I have had so far.

Keep the revs up fellows, the moon is yellow tonight.

[Cyclone7]

Thanks for your comments Helopat, far more constructive than Makiwa the makandanga.
My friends wants a new machine, and I have already warned them of the possible wait on the production line. A good sign on its own I would imagine, especially in the present economic climate.
I seem to remember that the cabin of the 109 is a bit small, and intend physically inspecting one - as well as the EC 135 - in the next week or so, with my customers. I have even suggested a visit to HAI, for some good background data building.
Go well, have a great New Year.

[Capt.Gonzo]

Hi,

Operating conditions will be 5 000 feet and hot, seating up to 6 ( with reasonable baggage space ).


if you decide to buy a twin, I think the ec-135 will be to small to transport 6 people with baggage an a few liters of fuel.

But take a look at the ec-145, verry good helicopter with much room for px and baggage. Also power and speed is good.

I enjoy reading here, please let us know what your decision was, and which helicopter you choose.

[Cyclone7]

Lutefisk989, I wonder if you are from Ft. Worth as I will be there soon for sim training at FS?
Cost is in fact not the prime consideration, for a change. The high DA is definitely a consideration from my side.
The final decision as always will be a cocktail of considerations, whereby I will try keep us all happy with the final selection.
Thanks for your comments anyway.

[Cyclone7]

Blenderpilot - now we are getting somewhere. I was hoping to find a pilot who had flown all the types we are considering, but your input still makes for good digestion. I know that Eurocopter supprort lags behind that of Bell, but I feel that Bell are also losing the plot these days - I am currently flying the 427, 430 and 412 and hear our maintenance guys muttering about this.
Agusta is the least known quantity to me at this stage, but I hear good things about their performance.
My data base is slowly building up, thanks to all you considerate drivers out there.
It is much appreciated.

[Cyclone7]

Choppie, thanks for your pennies worth but this just in.....it seems that the requirements have been notched up a touch, and that the twin is the one to be decided on. I like that.
By the way, I have a soft spot for the Squirrel - having introduced that type into SA in 1980 - and have heard lots of good stuff on the B3 in particular.

[John Eacott]

C7,

A quick look at your specs (6 pax/high DA/baggage space/speed) would point pretty well at the 109S. It's got much more cabin space than earlier 109 models, even more than the 109E, and has gobs of power from the PW207's. The baggage space in the boot is extended way back over the earlier A/AII/C, it will cruise close to Vne when light, and has a good range with the aux tank fitted. Next year's models will also have HUD available, and the standard EFIS is really first class. Air con actually works, and I suspect that will be a necessity where you are.

The 407 and the Koala are good, but won't be as good. 6 pax won't have as much room as the Grand, nor will the cruise speed be up to the 109S. The 130 and 135 are nice but unlikely to have the payload/range, and there is always the issue of support: maybe do a search on Rotorheads for previous queries which will give you more information? There are quite a few threads extant, you'll see links to a couple at the bottom of this thread page to help you ;)

When are you in Ft Worth? I'll be there in 10 days time, for a couple of weeks :ok:

[Cyclone7]

Capt. Gonzo - thanks for your comments. Cost is not a huge consideration, but we still have to be realistic - and the EC 145 might just be considered a bit rich. I have flown the BK 117 at least, so I am familiar with the size of machine.
But who knows, the final decision will not be mine.....

[exata]

Hi Cyclone 7.

I have flown both the A109 and EC135 and both machines are very good.

The 135 has better OEI perf (in general) and would handle 5000ft and hot, the A109 is faster (retractable undercarriage) and is a great corporate machine (my experience is in the power, limited ops in the grand), but is less tolerant of every day wear and tear.

Both have a great OEI training mode that is very safe. Both are excellent choices. I prefer the 135 because of its single eng perf and roomier cockpit and cabin space (we operate at 500 ft AMSL and 38 deg c).

Availability is the key.......

Hope this helps,

Ex

:ok:

[Cyclone7]

John - thanks for your input, now I really feel that this selection process is being narrowed down. Way to go I think, pick the brains out there.
I will now definitely be looking a lot closer at the Italian machine - after all, just look at their cars and women. Why did I not see the light earlier.

If we are in Dallas at the same time, it would be a great opportunity to hear about the 109 S first hand. I will be in the Hampton Inn in Hurst from Sunday 11 January till Thursday morning 15 th and at Flight Safety in between.
PM me if you think we might be able to meet up.
Go well mate.

[rotorboy]

Cyclone7,

Must be a pretty cush job in Angola, with all the time you have to spend on the internet. Do you really fly or just post queries on the net?

Cricket, thats that primitive version of baseball.

rb:ok:

[Cyclone7]

Exata - Thanks for your input on my little project, now you have got me thinking big time. Range is going to be important, that could still be the deciding factor, best I start looking at how aux tanks affect baggage space as well between these 2 machines. Any info on this angle.
I have heard in our crewroom that the quality control at Agusta has to be watched, especially on taking delivery. Any comments on this ?

[Cyclone7]

Rotorboy - eat your heart out. Cricket, like rugby, is actually played in the civilised world.

[WhirlwindIII]

Cyclone7

You might do well to look at refurbished machines (initial cost factor) in the medium weight class as well.

My experience with 6 pax and baggage has never left me in the class you are at present, especially if you want some range and happy passengers.

Good luck.

WIII

[Mark Six]

I can only confirm what John Eacott says regarding the
A109S. Forget the 109E - too weight limited. The S is very quick, and even at VNE is smooth. Plan your flights at 155kts TAS. It's very easy to exceed VNE in the cruise if you aren't paying attention - there is even an aural warning ("airspeed") as you slip through 168 knots. Excellent autopilot, SPIFR certified, and CAT A up to MAUW under normal conditions. Cockpit is definitely cramped though. Not good for bush landings as the main wheels are quite small and the belly is close to the ground. Good range when fitted with both aux tanks - around 3 hours @ 150 kts from memory. Seats 8 in normal configuration. Empty weight is around 2100 kg, full fuel is around 640kg(??), and MAUW for take off is 3175kg.
Aux tanks do not affect cabin or baggage space.

[helopat]

Cyclone,

In the A109E/S the extended range tanks fit under the rear (forward facing) seats and don't reduce either cabin or baggage space. Only difference is that you have to think more about CofG when it comes to loading the beast.

HP

[ShyTorque]

Cyclone, Check your pms.