Logging IF time in flight instructing

[Fonz121]

Just wondering what everyone's opinion is about logging IF time if you are instructing IFR in actual IMC. The front of my log book states this...

"When an instructor is giving dual instruction in actual conditions, both instructor and student may record the time as instrument flight time"

I personally havn't been after being told I couldn't because the above phrase is contradicted in another document.

I think you should be able to as I find I have to scan more then I would if I were flying, when a student is handling the controls in IMC, especially during an approach.

[Snatch]

Fonz

I think it's CAO 40 something which states that only one pilot may log IF time, ie: the pilot flying or making input to the autopilot.

I'm not a lawyer but I reckon the CAOs have more weight in law than the front page of your logbook ;)

[Ando1Bar]

A number of experienced instructors (maybe even ATOs?) log the time. Why? They are the one in command directing this person around in clouds and bad weather who doesn't even have a CIR yet. Effectively you are the one ultimately making the input, much like a qualified pilot uses an autopilot. CIR instructing in IMC is more challenging that just flying it.

[Fonz121]

yeah exactly my thoughts! I know two very experienced ATO's and they both have differing opinions.

[neville_nobody]

The general rules is as follows:

b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;

However this comes from a document that has no legal standing, so that is why ATO's are suggesting otherwise. It would make for an interesting court case if someone tried to legally test your IF experience in court. (say you crashed an aircraft and they wanted to suggest you had been logging IF illegally and therefore didn't met the insurance minimums for the flight or something)

[kellykelpie]

On the subject of logging IF, how much do people log on a normal flight? I have just under 13000 hours (mostly airline) but only have logged 600 hours IF (about .2 or .3 every pf sector no matter how long). Does this sound about right?

Happy new year!

[Unhinged]

The rules in Australia are very simple; Only one pilot can log IF at a time, and that can only be when in actual or simulated IMC. Pilot Log Books (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm) The rules in other countries vary, and are usually significantly more liberal, but that is the rule here.

As a result, IFR instructors who stick to the rules, log much less than their actual IMC time, despite the fact that they spend much of the flight scanning instruments and ready to take over control. For anyone who hasn't instructed on an IFR flight in IMC, I promise that when you're in cloud you're doing everything you need to be ready to take over, because when a student loses it you'd better be ready to go !

Personally, I keep an extra column in my logbook for tracking when we're in actual IMC but the student is flying - That way I have a record of the time. Any time that I am manipulating the controls or the autopilot in IMC, I log as required in the standard IF column.

In the early stages of a student's Instrument Rating, I will usually tell them that if they want the autopilot to say "autopilot on", whereupon I will take control and hand fly the aircraft. That usually gives me 0.2 or 0.3 per flight that can be legally logged as IF if we are in IMC, and is more than enough for recency issues.

I'm not a slave to rules, but I get nervous when IFR pilots (of all people !) start to look for ways around them. This is one part of flying where the rules will save you much more than they hurt you.

Kelly, I fly GA not airline, but my logbook shows a similar ratio. For me that's the great thing about an instrument rating - We use it to get above weather at the start of a flight and back down through it at the end. The rest is mostly sitting above clouds in the sunshine or looking at the stars :-)))

[Fonz121]

Unhinged,

I do exactly the same as you. Act as the autopilot sometimes in actual IMC to stay current. I was just asking because on the job applications my IF time isn't looking to impressive where ironically its the only thing I do (teach IFR with a lot of time spent in IMC).

[43Inches]

Fonz, the rule being refered to in the front of your log book is in regard to an AIC released about 10 years ago, I think it was H10/98 'logging of flight time'. Some log books produced at the time made reference to this AIC in the front page. About a year later an ammended AIC was released which specifically removed the part regarding instructors, and hence only the pilot flying can log IF time.

[Unhinged]

my IF time isn't looking to impressive

Job applicants have been known to miss out because their IF time was too impressive. Any CP worth the title knows what the rules are ... and that some of us miss out on logging IF time due to those rules.

I keep the extra logbook column ("In command in IMC, student flying")for my own information, and so that if I'm ever asked to quantify the amount, I can give a realistic number.

There was a thread a couple of years ago where we all compared IF time to total time. Being much to lazy to search it out, I seem to recall most pilots who actually fly IF were around the same ratio as Kelly.

[boofhead]

The world does not always follow ICAO. I flew for an airline in Asia for a few years and there they logged every flight (all flights were IFR) as instrument time, the entire flight time less 10 minutes (never did figure out why they took off the 10 minutes) and every crewmember logged all that time whether they were downstairs in first class noshing or in the bunk. The FOs got all bothered with me when I would cut them back in the flight log book to show only the flying pilot as instrument time and only for that part of the flight he/she was on the flight deck.
Relevant only because you might be in competition for a job somewhere against one of those bozos.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Speaking with a CASA FOI recently, he stated that there was a possibility that the rules would be changing to allow the instructor to log the IF time if in actual IMC.

This would lead one to deduce that you definitely cannot do so now.

[Condition lever]

If Bloggs is being instructed for the purposes of instrument training and is thus under a "hood" of some type he/she is logging 'simulated' IF time. The PIC instructor is able to log any IMC as 'actual'.

[43Inches]

Under the present CASA rules only the pilot manipulating controls is allowed to log Instrument Flight Time. The instructor may only log Instrument Flight time if they are actually flying the aircraft, if the student is flying regardless of actual IMC or simulated the instructor can not log it.

CASA only has two definitions for logging of Instrument time and that is Instrument Flight and Instrument Ground time, refer to their web site. Simulated IMC (hood or blinds) is still logged as Instrument Flight time.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Condition Lever
If Bloggs is being instructed for the purposes of instrument training and is thus under a "hood" of some type he/she is logging 'simulated' IF time. The PIC instructor is able to log any IMC as 'actual'.

Don't think so...

CASA
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;

There is a reference to say only one pilot can log the IF time.
Can anyone actually come up with a reference that says the instructor can log this time as well??

[Unhinged]

The PIC instructor is able to log any IMC as 'actual'.

Rubbish. Care to provide a reference ?

In Australia, only one pilot at a time can log IF time. I already posted the link (Pilot Log Books (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm)), and MIHC has posted the salient bit above.

I'm not saying it's fair, just that it's the rule.

[compressor stall]

With respect Unhinged your link is not the rules in a court of law. It's only an interpretation, albeit by CASA.

It contains several contradictions, including that hoary old chestnut of IF on a pitch dark night.....

[Unhinged]

Gidday Stally, I completely agree - it isn't law or even regulation. But it is the regulators published position, which we all know they will argue to the full extent of their taxpayer-funded legal team.

Of course, exactly the same can be said of everything in the AIP book.

[43Inches]

Here is the CAR;

5.52 What must be recorded in a personal log book?

(1) The holder of a flight crew licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation must record in his or her personal log book:
(a) the holder’s full name, address, date of birth and aviation reference number; and
(b) any information about each flight undertaken by the holder that CASA directs be recorded in the log book; and
(c) the time spent by the holder practising simulated flight in an approved synthetic flight trainer.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
[Note It is an offence against regulation 283 for a person to make a false or misleading statement in his or her personal log book.]

(2) CASA may give directions in Civil Aviation Orders setting out the information about each flight undertaken by the holder of a flight crew licence, a special pilot licence or a certificate of validation that the holder must record in his or her personal log book.


Here is the CAO;

9 Log books
9.5 For the purposes of subregulation 5.52 (2), the information about each flight must include:
(a) the date of each flight; and
(b) the type of aeroplane flown; and
(c) the registration marks of the aeroplane flown; and
(d) the point of departure and the destination of each flight; and
(e) the nature of each flight; and

(f) the time flown on instruments; and
(g) time flown in single and multi-engined aeroplanes by day and by night; and



(h) in accordance with subsection 10, the capacity in which the person flew the aeroplane






10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the
autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Note Instrument flight time shall only be logged by 1 pilot at a time.

Quite clearly only one pilot may log IF time, either the student is logging it or the instructor is, not both!

The pilot log book page on the CASA web site was issued via an AIC which holds the same legal weight as the AIP. However as correctly stated it is just CASAs' interpretation and governing stance on how things should be.

[wish2bflying]

(d) the point of departure and the destination of each flight :(

Ooops. Having just checked, there's only a few entries in my log book from my training that lists these. Might be a good idea to dig out the old kneepad sheets and add some more info to the nav flight entries. All I've got in there now is "nav 1", "nav 2", "nav test", "night nav" etc.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

43 Inches......

:D:D:D

[Ando1Bar]

To meet recent experience requirements regarding instrument approaches every 90/35 days, could a flying instructor count an approach conducted by their student?

[Lasiorhinus]

No, because they didnt conduct the approach. The student did.

What most IFR instructors do, is fly an approach on their synthetic flight training device at least every 90/35 days, to satisfy recency.

[43Inches]

You could also demonstrate approaches to students, you are then not only capable of logging it for recency but the student should gain some insight on how its done properly.

[Fark'n'ell]

You could also demonstrate approaches to students, you are then not only capable of logging it for recency but the student should gain some insight on how its done properly.

From this and previous discussions as I understand if the AP is doing the approach,then no crew member can log the approach as IF as they are not flying the aircraft. Aussie CAA= NZCaa= Bunch of dickwits who would not know their a*se from their elbow.Rules over this side of the ditch are vague also.

[43Inches]

The rule states the Pilot manipulating the controls OR monitoring the autopilot may log IF time.


10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.



CAO refference, It is quite clear.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Sorry to resurrect an old debate but was asked about logging 0.1 or 0.2 of a flight if the instructor was actually demonstrating during IMC.

NOT ALLOWED unless you take that time off the student's IF time and I think you will find they're not too keen to pay for your currency.