British United Airways Britannia's

[QuePee]

I have seen many threads starting with "this is a bit of a long shot but", so I will not say that but I would be very grateful if anyone has any info they could share with me.

My father was posted to RAF Seletar in 1961 and we flew out to Paya Lebar on a BUA Britannia, leaving Stansted on 11th November 1961 and the route was via Istanbul and Bombay (as was). I would really like to try and identify which aircraft was involved as I have faithfully recorded dates, times, registration etc for all the other flights I have undertaken and this one and the return are the only ones for which I don't have anything. I have found out that BUA were operating the following Brits in Nov 1961 G-ANCD, G-AOVI, G-APNA and G-APNB. My question then is this, does anyone on this forum know the whereaboutas of any of these aircraft on the 11, or 12th November 1961, or can you make any suggestions as to how I might find out.

As for the return journey this was also on a BUA Brit on 9th May 1964 with the route being the reverse of that going out. BUA had a greater selection of Britannia's as indicated by the research I have done, possibles being...G-ANCD, G-ANCE, G-AOVI, G-APNB, G-ARWZ, G-ARXA or G-APNA. Same question really, is there any way to eliminate any from this list ie undergoing m,aintenance, or being used on a different route etc.

Any help or information would be gratefully received.

[merlinxx]

You can try via British Caledonian (BCAL) Reunited. The online portal to connect ex British Caledonian Employee's from around the world. (http://www.bcalreunited.co.uk) as that site also includes all ex BUA folks as well as Caledonian/BCAL:ok: I can't help as only joined BUA in '65. Good luck.

[GK430]

I'll check my father's Log Books when I get home later. He flew everything in the BUA fleet - more or less, however on those dates?
Get back to you.

[Postfade]

My father was an RAF Warrant Officer, working in Signals. We flew out mid 1961 in a BUA Brit and returned in G-ANCD Jan 64.
Here's BUA Brit G-AOVE at Paya Lebar 1962.
http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/BUA%20Brit%20G-AOVE%20at%20night%20at%20Paya%20Lebar-S776A.jpg

BUA Brit taking off. He's put his gear up very promptly-that's because he's showing-off...it's during the 'Singapore Flying club air show-mid 1963'
Love the guy at the side of the runway as well.
http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/BUA%20Brit%20G-AOVE%20leaves%20Paya%20Lebar%20in%20style-mid%201963-S094A.jpg

Shot taken from G-ANCD during take-off from Paya Lebar-on my way home..Jan 1964

http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/BUA%20Brit%20G-ANCD%20during%20take-off%20from%20Paya%20Lebar-Jan%2064-S425A.jpg

Finally a wet and dismal Stansted. How I hated the UK for awhile!

http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/BUA%20Brit%20G-ANCD%20on%20the%20tarmac%20at%20Stansted-S225A.jpeg

David Taylor.

[GK430]

Well you were not a pax in G-APNA nor G-APNB.
My father left LGW on the 9th to Khartoum & Entebbe in 'NB. On the 12th flew Entebbe - Nairobi - Entebbe in 'NA and on the 14th Entebbe - LGW in 'NB.

At this time they also operated G-AOVE and G-ANCE as well as 'NCD and 'OVI.

He had pleurisy in the May/June of 64, so can't help. At the same time he was flying ATL.98, Viscount, DC-6 and first flight in VC.10 in the April of '64.
Other Britannia's flown that year and into early '65 were: G-AOVA, 'VJ, 'VP,
G-ASTF, G-ANCH and G-ATGD.

Hope you track down the info you are looking for.

POSTFADE - Lovely shots - if memory serves me right, the 'gear up' shot was quite a long way down 02 at Paya Lebar and they had probably been quite flat when the gear went up and then climbed? Very nostalgic!

[WHBM]

Did the BUA Brits need to have the pax seats turned round to face backwards when they were operating the military charters ? Was this for charters for the RAF only or did it apply to army/navy charters as well ?

[GK430]

I flew in the Brits in '62 and '63 down to East Africa and remember facing forwards. Maybe specific a/c were kept for Troopers with rearward facing seats?
I recall the BUA 1-11's with rearward facing seats.

[Postfade]

No the commercial Britannias didn't adopt the RAF in facing the seats to the rear, even on 'troop flights'.

http://www.davidtaylorsound.co.uk/share/Aircraft%20pics/BUA%20Brit%20G-ANCD-interior-S60As.jpg

Inside G-ANCD on return flight Jan 1964.

David Taylor.

[nicolai]

Postfade,

Is the cocoon-like object hanging from the overhead rack in the center of the photo a baby cot, or something else?
Can't say I would fancy being underneath a small child if it got airsick! :\

[pjac]

You can cross out XA-t was an ex El Al aircraft, then going to British Eagle as XA

[WHBM]

For those who have old copies of Propliner magazine, a major article on BUA Britannias (they steadily did all operators in turn) is in issue 32, Autumn 1987, which describes how long-haul troop charters were the dominant use from the days of BUA's founders Air Charter and Hunting-Clan, both of whom bought two aircraft each in 1958, the former replacing Avro Tudors on this work. The two fleets merged into BUA at the end of 1959.

The BUA fleet was thus four aircraft by 1961, all surprisingly based at Stansted for troop work. Only after October that year did they start to be used on schedules from Gatwick to Africa, replacing Viscounts. Ex-Hunting Clan APNA and NB were transferred for this work, which accords with GK430's father's experience described above, while two more ex-BOAC aircraft (AOVE and VI) were leased to replace them at Stansted, joining ex-Air Charter ANCD and CE.

Of the May 1964 fleet AOVE was on lease to MEA following a Caravelle accident, while ANCD, CE, AOVI, ARWZ and ARXA were the Stansted fleet. BUA lost the Far East trooping contract to British Eagle in summer 1964, and the fleet was then reduced, although the last Britannia did not leave the fleet until early 1969.

There is of course a lot more detail in the article, but unfortunately none of this answers the original question.

[GK430]

In latter half of '64 they took del of G-ASIW and 'IX (VC.10's) which took over the East African run. Equipped with forward freight door for a Combi operation and ability to take F.A.L.'s RR on the inauguaral trip!

[parabellum]

I flew from Stansted to Aden on or about 6/7 October 1963 in a BUA Britannia and it was with rear facing seats, about 11 hours.

We came back around 6/7 October 1964 and were lucky enough to be on one of the recently introduced VC10 trooping flights, about seven hours. Shortly after that it was back to the Britannia as the VC10s were needed for the newly acquired South American routes.

[QuePee]

Many thanks to all who have so far provided me with information so far. It is fascinating to see the breadth of knowledge on this forum.

Thanks particularly to Postfade for his wonderful and very evocative shots at Paya Lebar. My flight was a little later than the shots you have in Jan 64 but they reflect my memory of some 44 years ago, very well.

Thanks also to GK430 for his help in eliminating some of the possibles.

A quick recap on the info so far :

11 Nov 1964 Outward Flight
G-ANCD
G-ANCE
G-AOVE
G-AOVI
G-APNA Eliminated thanks to GK430
G-APNB Eliminated thanks to GK430

09 May 1964 Return Flight
G-ANCD
G-ANCE
G-ANCH
G-AOVA
G-AOVI
G-AOVJ
G-AOVP
G-APNA
G-APNB
G-ASTF
G-ATGD
G-ARWZ
G-ARXA Eliminated thanks to pjac

So it seems that some have been eliminated but yet more added to the list. Is the above correct, does it accurately reflect the BUA Fleet in Nov 61 and May 64 or have I misinterpreted something?

In response to some of the other posters on this thread, neither of the two Brit that I flew on with BUA had rear facing seats.

Lastly, and slightl;y off topic, I watched the 1962 film "Flight from Singapore" last night. Very poor acting and dreary story line but many great scenes of Paya Lebar with Comets, DC3, etc and also many shots of RAF Changi with 205 Sqn Shackletons, N, L and E in particular. The RAF of course came to the rescue in the shape of Hastings TG561. Ah nostalgia.....

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

nicolai: the objects attached to the hatrack were known as 'Skycots' so you have guessed correctly.

In British Eagle service, the Britannias on trooping did have rearward-facing seats. This might cause puzzlement to the pax on the Glasgow, for example, if the scheduled Brit. went 'tech.' causing a hasty substitution!

I had one flight in an RAF Britannia, from Aldergrove to Lyneham. The sensation of everyone travelling backwards was strange.

[Captain Anchovy]

QuePee

My father used to fly Brits for BUA - I will ask him to check his logbooks next time I see him

CA

[WHBM]

Rearward-facing seats :

I always imagined that setting these up was a significant task in the hangar, but someone on here a while ago wrote that BUA used to have to do this on the One-Elevens when chartered for trooping work, and then revert for commercial services, and it was a task just measured in a few hours, two fitters and a box of spanners, and often done overnight while on stand at Gatwick.

This was of course in the days before in-flight entertainment was projected on a screen on the front cabin wall !

Skycots :

Old University mate of mine became a translator at the MoD and travelled regularly to Germany, often by BA but on occasion (late 1970s) the departmental beancounter put him on an MoD Britannia Airways 737 troop charter. The first time he saw the skycots, apparently several of them, strung down the cabin, he was amazed (he also had comments on the joys of being stuck there in his business suit at charter 737 pitch between squaddies, squaddies wives, squaddies puking kids, etc !)

[GK430]

Amazing the story Log Books tell. I was so glad to get hold of my father's as I never knew where he was during most of my upbringing!

Parabellum
In early October '64, VC.10 G-ASIW was the sole a/c in the BUA fleet.
Overnight on Oct 4/5 it operated LGW-BAH.
P.M. on the 6th it went back to LGW - did it go to Aden in the transit?

On the 8th, it went LGW - Aden in 6hrs 55mins.

The production flight of G-ASIX took place on Oct 27th - presumably out of Weybridge and flew to Entebbe overnight on Nov 4th.

Postfade
Lucky you got back in Jan '64 because G-ARWZ was ferried back from SIN on three engines on Feb 6,7 and 8th. Total airborne time....28 hrs 10 mins

Digressing somewhat, many seem to think they work long hours in today's era.
Outbound to SIN was STN-IST 8:30 and IST-BOM 7:15 with just the tech stop.
In another airline, one day's work was TLV-ZRH-AMS-ZRH-TLV in 14 hrs airborne and must have had 3 on the ground plus report/brief and basically, no wonder he left after a short stay :=

[merlinxx]

Yup they did reconfig overnight with the frigging APU running, thus keeping all us vigilant ops folks awake in the old Ops Block, b'stards they was:{:E:ok:

[parabellum]

Hi GK430, (is that a BAC1-11 callsign? I flew Laker 1-11s!)
In that case I must have left Aden on the 8th/9th, definitely a VC10 and we were scheduled into LGW but, due fog, actually landed at LHR and customs went through us like a dose of salts, which, after a year in a rather unfriendly place, we really didn't appreciate!

[GK430]

Parabellum
Amazing - I had another pprune name - but I can't access it since I left my last place of work. GK429/430 was a 707 c/s (Gatwick-Palma on a Saturday)
Last flight I did with my old man on a Laker j/s - his last with them too and just levelling at 350 headed for Reus we had a pressurisation failure. Harry Clark(e) was flying in the R/H seat. I kind of remember it!

I will have to get the logbook out again as I have noticed an LHR dvt. If my old man was flying, it's no surprise customs rummaged away - he always seemed to attract their attention during that era :p

VIC - Australia?

[Warmtoast]

Reaward facing seats - RAF Brits

Here's what they looked like in RAF service (from a Bristol Aircraft brochure handed out at the 1961 Paris Air Show where I was with the RAF Brit on static display). And to think that way back in the early 1960's the standard seat-pitch in RAF Brits was 38-inches, reduced to 36-inches for max pax configuration.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin3Medium.jpg

Cabin looking aft.



http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin2Medium.jpg

Cabin looking forward


GK430

"On the 8th, it went LGW - Aden in 6hrs 55mins"

That's fast. My logbook shows we took an average of around 5½ hours from Lyneham - El Adem plus a further 6-hours or more from El Adem to Aden.

[GK430]

WARMTOAST

Apologies - I had digressed on to the first VC.10 trooper op by BUA - hence the speed - not a tailwind!
I remember going to Entebbe twice in the Brit - nearly 12 hrs and then in the 10 in just over 7. What a difference:ok: Old technolgy these days - but still fast!

[Joliet Jake]

Would your father remember Captain Chris Couch? He was my Dad!

[Joliet Jake]

I have all of my fathers log books for 1941-1980, but he didnt operate that flight. G-ANCD was doing the Bombay run. He flew it two weeks later!
Regards.

[GK430]

JJ
I have just looked through the Logbook for that period. I don't think they ever flew to-gether.

[flight of fancy]

Hi there

I was an AIr Hostess with BUA and kept a log book of my flights ask your father if he remembers me Una Tooth we use to fly Britannias out of Stanstead for trooping contracts. G-ANCE was one I remember thanks

[flight of fancy]

Hi I remember your Dad Looking in my Log book I see it has 3.1.1965
Flight on Brittania with Capt Cooch F/0 D Atkins Gatwick Tenerife
Is he still around would love to know . unfortunately Doug Atkins has died.

[flight of fancy]

Hi I was an Air Hostess on the trooping flights in the Brit 1964 i flew in G-ANCE and G-ANCD G-APNB on these flights . If you need help go to www.britishcaledonian.com (http://www.britishcaledonian.com)

[pjac]

I beg to differ-British Eagle's Brits DID have the seats facing rearwards on the Troopers

[WHBM]

A further article I recall (possibly another Propliner one) stated that British Eagle Britannias did get reconfigured to rearward-facing for trooping flights, and more than once when faced with an overnight unserviceability at Heathrow the morning Britannia schedule to Glasgow and back was operated by a rearward-configured aircraft, much to the bemusement of the passengers.

[QuePee]

The intention of this message is to finally close the thread as my original question has finally been answered. I have been struggling for the best part of 50 years to try and identify the aircraft that I flew to Singapore in 1961 and that for the home journey in 1964. Well thanks to the very kind person known as Captain Speaking I have at last solved the riddle. It turns out that both trips were conducted in NCD, as confirmed by the Stansted ATC logs. I am extremely grateful bioth to Capt Speaking and to PPRuNe for enabling me get in touch with the right peoiple to help me with my quest.


Thanks again and I hope Capt Speaking has not gone too red.........


QP

[pjac]

Not XA, that was a British Eagle Brit and prior to that, El El, never in service with BUA.

[brakedwell]

Would your father remember Captain Chris Couch? He was my Dad!

JJ
I remember Chris Couch. I renewed his Britannia qualification on May 21st 1976 with a Base Check and Instrument Rating in an (ex RAF) Britannia 9G-ACE.

[Tempsford]

Geminair, spent many hours working on that a/c at LTN.

[Proplinerman]

"Lastly, and slightl;y off topic, I watched the 1962 film "Flight from Singapore" last night. Very poor acting and dreary story line but many great scenes of Paya Lebar with Comets, DC3, etc and also many shots of RAF Changi with 205 Sqn Shackletons, N, L and E in particular. The RAF of course came to the rescue in the shape of Hastings TG561. Ah nostalgia....."

Following on from this, has anyone seen the classic 1955 British film "Out of the clouds?" Set in and around Heathrow, it features some superb propliner footage, but as a film is otherwise a complete dud-a typical 1950s British B movie. I recorded it from TV a few years ago, but as it's just become available on DVD on Amazon, I bought a copy last week.

[BEagle]

Warmtoast - we had those very same passenger seats in the early days of the VC10K2! And very comfy they were too - far nicer than the firmer 'Golf GTi' seats with which they were replaced.

Proplinerman - thanks for the heads up about 'Out of the Clouds'! I have a VHS copy-of-a-VHS copy from TV - complete with adverts - which I'd transferred to DVD. But that may now be retired as I've just ordered the DVD from A*a*on!

[Warmtoast]

BEagle


Warmtoast - we had those very same passenger seats in the early days of the VC10K2!

Probably standard issue for new transport aircraft coming into service in the late 1950's - early 1960's. Although I don't think the RAF Comets had them.

I had a pax trip in the tail-boom of a Beverley once and ISTR the Beverley's seats were relatively comfortable - were they perhaps the same?