OXFORD/KIDLINGTON

[NotMeMate]

Delayed again I hear!!! :E

[NotMeMate]

Rumour has it that Minoan have delayed yet again? :bored:

[Cyrano]

Rumour has it that Minoan have delayed yet again? :bored:
Are you sure it's not just that the F50 positioning from Greece has run into headwinds so will be aloft for a few weeks longer?:p

[latedownwind]

No delay - 04 March start as planned

[No RYR for me]

Let me start by saying that I have no insider knowledge on either the airport and the operator just a few decades aviation experience...

New airport, new (or at least unknown) operator, new routes....: I guess late start and early finish... :{

So my money is on NotMeMate ... :\

Again that is pure speculation on my side... :oh:

[latedownwind]

Let s see what happens 4th march then !

[fjencl]

NotMeMate


Where did you get your info from ???????

[NotMeMate]

Military secret! :oh:

[rob39]

Noticed Minoan are utilising 2 aircraft for 2 routes (f50's are these thirsty birds??), with the first EDI rotation landing back at OXF 1110hrs. next rotation not until 1730hrs. DUB rotation returning to base at 1015hrs and next off at 1730hrs. Surely having 2 aircraft sitting on the tarmac for 6-7hrs is not viable???
Looking to book EDI-OXF 11/3/13 back 14/3/13 £102:15 :ok:

[CelticRambler]

Well, as most airlines only lose money when their aircraft are flying :} it's probably better to keep them on the ground. At least until the operation is properly established.

I know of two profitable "niche" European airlines that keep their costs under control by doing just that. One flies just 4 hours a day (double rotation on a single route).

[BEagle]

It's a shame that Minoan aren't starting a daily route to Dublin in time for the trip I have to make in early April. It's only 20 min to the airport from home and the flight would have saved me about €90 for one less night in an hotel.

I wish them well and will be keeping a close eye on their success. But whether Kidlington has the right level of infrastructure to support further routes, particularly to European destinations, I'm not entirely sure.

Oxford to Köln/Bonn would avoid Heathrow Hell and would be very welcome!

[fjencl]

When are the Minoan Air Fokker 50's due to arrive, bearing in mind that there new services to Edinburgh and Dublin commence a week tomorrow.

[PhiltheReaper]

Rumour suggests Wednesday I heard?

[latedownwind]

Minoan arrives OXF Friday late morning

[davidjohnson6]

It's now Friday (well, gone midnight in the UK at least), and one-way fares for all Minoan flights next week to/from Oxford remain at about £50 or £55
Compared to the cost of flying from Luton, Birmingham or Heathrow at short notice and at peak times, and assuming flights operate reasonably close to on schedule, then Minoan's tickets now look like being a bit of a bargain...

[LTNman]

This could indicate a general lack of passengers wanting to fly Manoan from Oxford or an opening offer to stimulate demand.

[dead_pan]

Are they there yet?

[Wycombe]

There is something that looks very much like an F50 on the OXF webcam:

London Oxford (Kidlington) Airport EGTK/OXF - Airport Webcam, WeatherCAM, Web Cam, Live Camera (http://www.oxfordairport.co.uk/pilots_guide/weathercam.htm)

[Phileas Fogg]

With regards to suggestion that flying from/to Kidlington, whilst taking in to consideration rural public transport and taxi service expenses or travelling by private car at circa £0.40 per mile plus any car parking charges, to save a quid or few on, merely, the air fare(s) versus planning more than a week in advance to fly from/to one's doorstep airport ... Well I know which I'd prefer!

Perhaps the only reason the fares from/to Kidlington remain at the levels they do is because nobody wants them ... were nobody to want the DUB/EDI fares out of LON, BHX, BRS etc. then, just, perhaps those fares would be equivalent or less than the fares from/to Kidlington!

Still curious, mind you, as to what's going to operate Kidlington's New York services? :)

[EMB-145LR]

Routes Online report that a second carrier is due to announce flights from Oxford next week: Routes News - Oxford lands second carrier (http://www.routes-news.com/news/item/1050-oxford-lands-second-carrier)

My money is on a Saturday JER flight from Blue Islands, Flybe or Manx2.

[No RYR for me]

And? Have they started? If so what loads?

[latedownwind]

First flight to Edinburgh departed on sched at 0730

[ScotsSLF]

The Scotland on Sunday newspaper yesterday ran a competition to win flights with Minoan and hotels in Oxford.

[Phileas Fogg]

First flight to Edinburgh departed on sched at 0730

Come on ... How many fare paying punters were there on it?

[davidjohnson6]

In summer 2012, Manx2 / Citywing ran a IoM - Oxford - Jersey route. CAA stats show the 2 routes out of Oxford each managed a summer peak of about 110 passengers per month - that's 55 people in each direction. Allowing 4.3 weeks per calendar month, a once per week flight would achieve less than 13 passengers per flight. If Oxford is to get a new route to IoM or Jersey, it will need some good marketing to be a success.

[dead_pan]

Spoke to a couple of chums over the weekend who live south of the city. They were completely unaware of Minoan's new services - they've seen/heard nothing in their local press or on Oxford's commercial radio stations.

Sounds like there's more promotion going on in Scotland.

[dead_pan]

Still curious, mind you, as to what's going to operate Kidlington's New York services?

Howsabout:

Reaction Engines Ltd - Space Access: SKYLON (http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/space_skylon.html)

...based just down the road at Culham Science Centre

[Yak97]

I wonder if Minoan included deicing costs in their calculations? Not a lot of de-icing required in the Greek Islands, unlike Oxford!

2nd morning - 5 or 6 pax - nearly outnumbered by Hi-Viz jackets!

[bac3-11]

With a huge demand of 100,000 per year, the gap in the middle of the day could be filled with a rotation from bournemouth.positioning would only take 30 mins and could even take pax

[Phileas Fogg]

You mean a once daily Fokker 50 could carry 100,000 per year?

[bac3-11]

OF COURSE NOT! BUT SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING.
SEE ANNA. AERO- ROUTES REQUIRED . RYAN DID THE ROUTE , THEN PULLED OUT FOR NO GOOD REASON . NUMBERS DROPPED AFTER RYAN CHANGED TIMES. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DEPART AT 10.30 pm!!!!
EUROSCOT DID THE ROUTE WELL BUT THEN HAD A PROBLEM WHEN THE PLANE BECAME UNAVAILABLE

[Phileas Fogg]

People fly Ryanair because it is cheap, the larger the aircraft then the cheaper per seat to operate it, any positioning sectors increase the airfares on the live sectors, just as a ballpark figure a F50 positioning in/out would need to charge something like 300% to 400% the fares of a B737-800 with no positioning in/out involved ... end result ... "We won't bother going" or "We'll travel from an alternative airport instead"!

P.S. And please don't shout :)

[Groundloop]

EUROSCOT DID THE ROUTE WELL BUT THEN HAD A PROBLEM WHEN THE PLANE BECAME UNAVAILABLE


Where did you get that reason from? According to Jack Romero, Ryanair forced them out:-

Airline chief Jack Romero had turbulent time with Bournemouth operation (From Bournemouth Echo) (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/features/8404115.Airline_chief_Jack_Romero_had_turbulent_time_with_Bo urnemouth_operation/)

[bac3-11]

Sorry if I seemed to shout, unintentional but passionate about getting flights in to Bournemouth. Agree the positioning would kill it if a permanant arrangement , if they got the numbers perhaps they would like to base a plane at bournemouth. Plenty of other routes they could try for the middle morning/afternoon gap. eg Belfast

[No RYR for me]

With a huge demand of 100,000 per year, the gap in the middle of the day could be filled with a rotation from bournemouth.positioning would only take 30 mins and could even take pax


What have you been smoking.... :ugh:

[Phileas Fogg]

bac3-11

And I just happened to, in a previous life, work for and know personally the gentleman that designed the BAC3-11 (Please note the Block Caps in "BAC"!)

Back in the day I recalled a Shed330/360 mob that based itself at BOH, think they were called "Metropolitan", with circa 30 to 36 seats they tried all sorts of routes in/out of BOH and they went out of business PDQ.

No doubt you're comparing BOH with SOU's success, much alike CWL bitching about BRS's success, alas SOU has an on-airport rail station connecting it directly with London whilst Hurn remains out in the countryside someplace.

However ... We are in the Kidlington Aerodrome thread, no appropriate place for discussing BOH's lacking so, as some might say, "Go discuss it in the BOH thread" :)

[dead_pan]

Kidlington Aerodrome

That'll wind the Reuben boys up...

[No RYR for me]

Any updates on the loadfactors so far?

[G-JNHP]

Achieved load factors (ALF) are only one element in determining airline operating performance - the others being unit costs and yields. It's the interplay of these that matter.

In any case, airlines traditionally took up to 3 years to make a route profitable (if it became profitable), and it's highly likely that this route will take many months to become profitable (if it does). Of course, this would have been factored into their financial plans, with difficulty arising if they were overly optimistic or if reality deviates from expectation.

Of course, FR has previously said 'it X route isn't profitable very quickly...' but that's very much the exception for airlines.

[Phileas Fogg]

G-JNHP,

Are your words a diplomatic way of suggesting that these operations in and out of Kidlington are a lost cause, that the writing is on a wall, but to be polite we should wait three years before determining so?

[Cyrano]

Achieved load factors (ALF) are only one element in determining airline operating performance - the others being unit costs and yields. It's the interplay of these that matter.

In any case, airlines traditionally took up to 3 years to make a route profitable (if it became profitable), and it's highly likely that this route will take many months to become profitable (if it does). Of course, this would have been factored into their financial plans, with difficulty arising if they were overly optimistic or if reality deviates from expectation.

Of course, FR has previously said 'it X route isn't profitable very quickly...' but that's very much the exception for airlines.

You're right that it's (obviously) about revenue (load factor and yields) versus costs, rather than just load factors. However "load factor doesn't tell us anything" is really only a valid response to someone who says "look! The load factor on route AAA-BBB is 80%! It must be profitable!" Normally airlines can manage to deliver high load factors if they drop their fares low enough, but that doesn't mean the route is profitable.

The alternative model is Eastern's: not worried about relatively low load factors because the yields are very high (which can be seen from the available fares).

In the case of Minoan, if I want to fly within a few days (e.g. OXF-EDI on Monday, or OXF-DUB next Wednesday) their cheapest fares are still available, so they are certainly not emulating Eastern, at least not yet. I therefore know the yields are low; having an idea of the load factors gives me a good sense of how effective their marketing presence is (are they managing to fill their seats even at low prices?).

The era when airlines (other than rich state-owned airlines) could take 3 years to make a route profitable is long gone, and I don't know any European regional airline that isn't extremely focused on route profitability. If Minoan is unable to demonstrate that these routes are on a clear track to profitability not within 3 years but within 3 months (not necessarily profitable, but close to profitability and with a clear upwards trend), then I wouldn't expect them to stick around. They are apparently bankrolled by venture capitalists (http://www.anna.aero/2013/03/06/30-seconds-with-marcos-caramalengos-chief-commercial-officer-minoan-air/), who as a rule don't get rich by throwing good money after bad.

[G-JNHP]

Think my "traditional" comment was taken out of context and that the inherent historic perspective of it was ignored. I didn't say or imply it would take 3 years. I said that it's highly likely to take "many months" - which could be 5 months or 7 months or 9 months or more - especially from the newness of this operator within the UK, lack of awareness, effectively brand-new route, etc. Of course, we could argue all of this, but unfortunately without access to data it's somewhat academic. But I hope for the best.

And yep: lower ALF offset by higher yields (revenue per passenger per mile) or often vice-versa.

[PPRuNe Pop]

If this company require advertising on PPRuNe they can pay for it like everyone else. There is no more free space available to them. No more discussions on whether or not they will be operating out of Kidlington.

They merely go to the first page and click on advertising.

AA&R mods

[sxflyer]

With all due respect, unless I've missed something that has been deleted, I don't see how discussions on Minoan at Oxford are any different to EZY at Southend, TOM at DSA, or any other example of a new entrant or dominant carrier at a particular airport.

We're all professionals, or should be, and the performance of a new entrant to a little-tested market is of interest and intrigue.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Minoan are NOT an operating entity and until they are they or their agents or their owners will not get free space on PPRuNe. That, is the end of the matter.

[Flypuppy]

Pop, Minoan ARE an operating airline. Flights bookable on their website, and a report on Anna.aero.
New airline routes launched (26 February (http://www.anna.aero/2013/03/06/new-airline-routes-launched-26-february-4-march-2013/)

[mart901]

minoan are a small, unknown quantity, easy to pick on-you will notice numerous posts are deleted for ryanairs sake, fear I believe drives that one

[Pain in the R's]

From the forum heading.

This forum is called Airlines, Airports & Routes
Topics about airports, routes and airline business.
Now I am very confused.


Minoan are NOT an operating entity and until they are they or their agents or their owners will not get free space on PPRuNe. That, is the end of the matter. I fully understand the no publicity rule like providing links to airline websites but just by mentioning any plans from any start up airline is also banned on prune?:oh::oh::oh:
M******* are now operating between O***** and E********* and D***** yet we can’t talk about it but if FlyBe were we could talk about it? Is it the airline or the airport that are the issue?

I am not being awkward but I am totally lost on this one as I want to follow the rules.

[Expressflight]

I have to say that I agree with the last couple of posts and am equally confused. As the previous poster has indicated, I have no wish to be awkward either; simply enlightened.

I was always under the impression that full discussion of, and comment on, any airline whether actually operating or proposed was a given. I honestly cannot see that anyone posting here has deliberately sought to give Minoan 'free' advertising. Indeed, most of the comment has been of a negative nature.

Is this ruling to be applied to all start-ups in future (such as Little Red, Brighton City Airways, Maastricht Airlines etc.) or is there a particular reason, that I may be unaware of, why Minoan is a special case?

[fairflyer]

As the previous poster implies, I don't think anyone here is trying to 'plug' a specific route or airport or airline, just need an intelligent debate about the viability and expections for for a new player on the UK domestic aviation scene, launching new routes at a 'new' regional airport for the provision of commercial air services. For a bunch of Greek investors to scour the whole of Europe for opportunities to utilise their fleet of unexpectedly redundant Fokker 50s and settle on starting up completely remote, based operations at Oxford and Lugano, is pretty bold and adventurous.

It's a hugely risky venture for whoever is taking the bulk of the risk (could be shared risk on part of the airline or the airport(s) concerned?) and frighteningly expensivve until the loads get up to acceptable levels - whatever that load factor is.

But despite the economic downturn, high fuel prices, wretched APD charges etc., someone out there has had the balls to go for it and based on some pretty sound statistics and demographic analysis, it's giving it a crack. Where it takes £200-£400+ of your hard-earned cash and six hours with one or two train changes on our hopeless rail system to get from Oxford to Edinburgh, this ought to transform the productivity of those trying to earn a living doing business between the two great cities. Never been possible to do a sensible day return between the two before now - unless you trawl through the likes of BHX or LHR with all that entails.

Dublin's a no-brainer too.

Goodness knows the country needs a kick up the backside in terms of overall productivity - we are well down on the international rankings on that front, and if new regional air services can transform local transportation productivity, then, boy we should be embracing it, not cynically wishing for all airline start-ups to fail from the outset - 'cos that's what always happens nine time out of ten'.

So, give it a go and best off luck, small acorns and all that. It will be a tough ride, but stick in there. Whether it's 'London' Oxford, Cambridge 'Brighton City', Chester/Hawarden - any of the new UK kids on the block, wish them all well, are not most of the readers here pro-aviation?

'If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again' - or get redeveloped as a housing or industrial estate - in aviation.

[PhiltheReaper]

Bit of a shock that my posts were deleted! Can it be true that a post criticising the lack of advertising is seen as an advert in itself?

I rather feel there's a bit of a witch hunt going on here. However, I shall but out of Mod decisions. It is usually the safest option! :ok:

All I would ask the Mods to clarify is:

If we are not allowed to use this thread to discuss the biggest news topic at Oxford Kidlington at the moment. What exactly is this thread / forum for?

Regards,

[Phileas Fogg]

Guys,

There has been a member, location EDI, that totally busted pPrune's rules and not only commercially advertised but posted links to Fokker booking engine(s) etc.

That was a number of weeks back, as services were about to commence that member returned posting more, clearly, commercial info and a pic of a Fokker ... He wasn't so clever though, he referred to the Fokker as operating "our services" thus, clearly, directly or indirectly a certain Fokker operator are paying his wages.

Phil, don't worry, a post of mine became deleted also and I certainly wasn't commercially advertising, as pPrune suggest it the (paid for) commercial advertising that pays for us to sit here for free chatting etc. and we all need to play by the same rules.

[PPRuNe Pop]

PF is on the button. Links are not acceptable when they point directly at the operator and more especially when they advertise an operator.

Just don't get involved in what YOU personally think is going to happen without the facts to back it up. Choose your words carefully and all will be well.

Carry on much as you have been but culling WILL occur if anyone steps over the boundaries of PPRuNe's rules, and please note that we not obliged to give reasons for any actions we take.


Enjoy.

AA&R mods

[PhiltheReaper]

That's actually far enough then in my mind. Thanks for the clarity from both of you!

Phil

[onyxcrowle]

Moving on from the discussions about the newest route. Are there any others in the pipeline.
Is Oxford likely to be the next Southend?. Maybe Easyjet might like to start?

[Pain in the R's]

There is not a hope in hell that will happen.

[PhiltheReaper]

There was a murmur in the news a few weeks ago that a second scheduled company wanted to operate out of Oxford and it was due to be announced last week, although clearly that's either been delayed, or was mistaken media hype..

As for people like easyJet, I see that as a bit unlikely for the foreseeable! Oxford has an award winning business terminal yes.. but a terminal with capacity for larger airline operations (forget the rest of the infrastructure such as parking) it does not!

I think before any one of the "major" airlines considered Oxford it would need a serious round of investment and probably a direct link to London too.

Phil

[Phileas Fogg]

Phil,

Just a hunch but I'm reckoning the runway length might impede upon any "big boy" operations in/out of Kidlington!

[Cyrano]

I think before any one of the "major" airlines considered Oxford it would need a serious round of investment and probably a direct link to London too.

It would need a runway long enough for them to land on. That's a pretty definitive showstopper before even considering other investment, surface links etc. :cool:

[putneyuk]

A local Oxfordshire travel company is advertising flights to Belfast from Oxford daily and twice daily certain days on a Links Air Jetstream starting May 13th. Also offering Jersey from the same date with a daily flight and Guernsey twice weekly all on the Jetstream.

[BHD2BFS]

I think that is citywing as they flew to Belfast last summer and I believe city wing uses linksair aircraft

[Yak97]

Wonder if they have put an application in yet for traffic rights? Doesn't seem enought time, if they are starting services in May? Nothing published by CAA (OF 2)

[PhiltheReaper]

As per runway length, with the 1500 or so licensed they might not be able to use fully laden 737's, but the more regional sized aircraft operated by the likes of Flybe would presumable be of little problem?

I imagine though that the current show stopper would be the fact that the apron is way waaaay too small to handle much more scheduled stuff than it already does. A significant extension would have to be completed before a (much needed as you guys rightly say) runways extension would be worth the cash?

Also, I don't know what you guys think, but the airspace around Oxford seems pretty congested, would this have much of an effect on their plans for expansion? E.g. with the Brize Norton MATS intersecting the Runway 01 extended runway, surely some major airspace re-arrangement would be necissary to make Oxford a really busy jet-traffic runway?

Also, I wonder what effect all the local drop zones would have on Airline safety cases...

[LTNman]

Runway is only 30m wide

[tws123]

According to the Citywing booking engine there are 6 flights on sale from Oxford to the Isle of Man between April and June?

[davidjohnson6]

tws - the Isle of Man TT might have something to do with these seasonal flights

[IOMspotter]

citywing are running flights to LBA and OXF just for the TT period. The OXF IOM flights often connected on to BHD.;)

[onyxcrowle]

Lba - Oxf could well become populat. Two University cities Leeds is upcoming in many ways and might just be a good route .

[davidjohnson6]

onycrowle - Leeds-Oxford takes about 3h30 by train and, allowing for a change in Birmingham, trains go every half hour.

I would imagine a Bristol-Leeds route has higher demand than Oxford-Leeds but Eastern fly Bristol-Leeds only 8x per week (less than double daily on weekdays) with rather small aircraft - is there really enough of an air market for Oxford-Leeds ?

[No RYR for me]

Any updates on the Load Factor (and yield if available G-JNHP ;) ) Just read that FLYbe / Logain pulled the Den Helder/Norwich flight after two weeks because they only flew an average of 6 punters...

[PhiltheReaper]

That would be interesting, because as someone who travels up to Yorkshire a lot, I have noticed that not only are the trains an absolute faff, but there is no coach service worth mentioning! You have to go into London and out again, or take a similarly indirect route I believe. Currently driving is the only sensible way to get to Yorkshire from Oxford, so far as I have found.

An affordable service could come in very useful!

On a related note to all of the potential commercial routes in or out of OXF, is there any likelihood of businesses setting up shop? I can't imagine a MacDonalds is a million miles away?

[EMB-145LR]

There's already a Starbucks/Cafe at the airport, along with somewhere to buy snacks, magazines, newspapers etc. I don't think McDonalds would really be an attractive option, it doesn't match the demographic very well, and I think the airport is trying to offer an 'executive' style experience.

[harriewillem]

robbie vision ‏@robivison
7 of us now on board a disturbingly old Minoan Air Fokker 50. quite luxurious tho - 7 leather seats each

[tarnehat]

7 onboard - Ouuuuuuch. Poor buggers aren't even going to last the Summer at this rate :/

[Centre cities]

Are you sure that was not the crew.

Centre cities

[No RYR for me]

it doesn't match the demographic very well, The last time I landed there the average person there was a spotty guy in an OAA uniform so I would say that it is spot on for the local demographics :E

Re 7.... That does not even pay for the catering truck and the crews per diem I guess...

[onyxcrowle]

Early days with an unknown airport not know for passenger flights. What sized jets can land ? 737/600 ( or 3/5). A318?. Paris airfrance ?. Embraer 170/90?.
What of props etc n obv a 146 fj100 .
Also what routes might work.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Also what routes might work. How much pulication of the route. Howabout Minian paint a Union jack or repaint to make the passengers identify with it.nn"

Good idea, suggested the name "British Minoan" in an earlier post, it's similar thinking!

Quote: "But in answer to the comments made about oxf . Lba, As said above there is no direct train. Better still get a heathrow rail link into oxf. National rail . Direct to heathrow abd perhaps make some smaller airports eg huy or randomly for example dtv or even syy a quick link into heathrow. No slots affected. Make the rubway bigger adx ils nexpand the apron. Might sound pie in the sky but the direct and properly timed no stop service tk heathrow could make a great feeder inti lhr . No impact on slots n free up the slots by transfering the rely smaller stuff from lhr there.
Final thing what is the smallest schedueld ac to fly into lhr ?. Any props ? Dont flame for this pls just a genuine interest In it n enjoy thr discussions here"

Hmmm, interesting idea, sounds a little like the "Northolt as third runway" idea, that appears to have died a death now.

Four parallel rwys at Heathrow is a much better idea!

Would this be a stopgap until 2 more rwys are built at Heathrow? If it is to be instead of 2 more rwys at Heathrow, forget it!

[No RYR for me]

Anybody near a window at OXF has an update on the LoadFactor today?

[Rougueg]

What i particually like about the Minoan Air website is the following...

PROPELLERSDowty Aerospace 6-bladedStructureCarbon fibre - easily repairable



Because your average pax wants to know the baldes are "easily repairable"... erm excuse me Captain does that mean they need repairing often enough for that to be their main benefit?!

The "Fleet" page on their website, reads like low grade notes for an airline interview...

[dead_pan]

But in answer to the comments made about oxf . Lba, As said above there is no direct train. Better still get a heathrow rail link into oxf. National rail . Direct to heathrow abd perhaps make some smaller airports eg huy or randomly for example dtv or even syy a quick link into heathrow. No slots affected. Make the rubway bigger adx ils nexpand the apron. Might sound pie in the sky but the direct and properly timed no stop service tk heathrow could make a great feeder inti lhr .

Despite the fact a main rail artery runs close to OXF's eastern perimeter there are no plans to put any station thereabouts AFAIK. Chiltern are going to put a parkway just south of the A34 but this is some distance from the airport i.e. will still require a bus or taxi journey. FYI Oxford to Paddington currently takes c.50 mins so an OXF-LHR link is really too far to be viable (may as well run a link from LHR to SOU - at least SOU has its own station).

The lack of publicity is killing Minoan's new service IMO. Where's the billboards, newspaper & radio ads etc etc?

[Rougueg]

Dead Pan:
despite the absolute importance to any airline of having a markerting campaign.

Having all those good things costs ££££. Something i think Minoan does not have a lot of.

[PhiltheReaper]

dead pan I believe their are plans to extend a branch line from the new rail project towards the airport, which I believe may have an important impact on the connectivity of the airport.

[SWBKCB]

citywing are running flights to LBA and OXF just for the TT period. The OXF IOM flights often connected on to BHD.

IOMspotters post back at #320 was about Citywings doing TT charters from the IOM to OXF and LBA, not flights from OXF to LBA - so lets knock that one on the head before another urban myth is created...

And a rail link? For an airport that has one actual scheduled service that has been running for a few weeks and another one planned - I know we are talking about the south-east, but really???

[dead_pan]

And a rail link? For an airport that has one actual scheduled service that has been running for a few weeks and another one planned - I know we are talking about the south-east, but really???

Fair comment. A nice entrance to the airport would be a good start. Last time I visited it felt like driving onto an industrial estate.

On the plus side it does have pretty good road links and is only a short hop into Oxford city centre. Rail links can wait - LHR managed fine without one for decades.

[derelicte]

Give it a chance.

Can you imagine how it would be in reverse, such that Oxford was up and running and then someone proposed starting at something at Luton?

Bristol is not exactly the dream location for an airport either.

[No RYR for me]

@derelicte Give it a chance.
I see you are Sheffield based. A great airport at the time with enough connections for a while by some "blue chip" airlines like Sabena, BA and KLM and a proper marketing team and budget. And still they did not make it work...

The reason I am interested is the fact that I think that this airport has a much better potential but is not picked up by the big boys and when it starts there is NO marketing what so ever it seems... Such a missed opportunity... In my world this would be a FLYBE base that could work...

ps what is the LF today/yesterday?

[PhiltheReaper]

If you chaps are referring to my rail link comment, I would ask that you notice I said "towards" the airport. I do not believe the rail network project is coming "to" the airport, just rather nearer than the current DCT Lonon rail routing.

[Phileas Fogg]

Kidlington is not an "Airport", it's an "Aerodrome", I can rename my house a castle but that doesn't suggest that Wills and Kate will be popping by for tea & biscuits anytime soon!

Lydd renamed itself "London/Ashford" gawd knows how many years ago and what has developed there and since? Kidlington, equally as ridiculously, renames itself "London/Oxford" and, at this moment in time, a tin pot (poor country) operator has come in with 50 seater geriatric turbo-props offering bucket shop fares that, by all accounts, are carrying load factors of some 15% and guys on here are talking about "Aerodrome" rail stations and "What routes next?".

Come on, get off your Scalextric and/or your Hornby train sets, Kidlington is a regional aerodrome that, alike Lydd, is trying to make it in to the big time, pigs will fly before that ever happens so, perhaps, time to land back on planet earth and start thinking realistically.

[WK622]

Seventy odd miles from Oxford in various directions, BA at Heathrow, EasyJet at Luton and Bristol, and FlyBe at Birmingham and Southampton offer around 40 flights a day to Edinburgh. For passengers originating from the Oxford area, the journey to and from each of these airports has its frustrations be they coaches, car parking or just the overall cost to them or their company. The challenge for Oxford Airport and Minoan is to tempt enough of these `locals' to its flights.

A lesson from history suggests that a properly advertised, consistently reliable service from a passenger friendly airport can do just that. Back in the 70s & 80s Liverpool was on its knees. The motorways led all traffic east to Manchester and its sparkling terminals, leaving Liverpool with just the Isle of Man and Belfast traffic. Even the main IT players had deserted the airport. And then a gent called Stellios arrived with an orange tailed Boeing 737 and the rest is history. What he did was to advertise his lower fares in Manchester as well as Liverpool, and to stress that flying with him would be simpler, as he used a quieter local airport. Funny old thing, the masses suddenly recognised that the M56 was two way and today you are as likely to hear accents from across NW England as you are from Liverpool.

I am not saying LCCs should or indeed ever will flock to Kidlington. But the airport is correct in believing there is a market for money to be made on a small number of key routes. However, they really need to invest greater time and energy on the project. How much for a banner on the hedge alongside the A44 advertising the flights, for ads in the local press as far out as Swindon, Aylesbury, Warwick and Worcester? Compared to the recent significant investment in airfield aids, the lack of advertising is simply bizarre. And if London Oxford Airport really wants to be an airport it needs to act like one, for no where else do you have ask to come in at the quirky security hut, with its `Carry On' film barrier! Airports succeed by carefully identifying markets, then being passenger and potential passenger friendly. The more folk in the car park and cafe the more return they get on their investment.

I really hope Kidlington suceeds in this venture, if they started Glasgow I would use it for business. But you have to win your markets and sell your `edge' over the competition. You can make the best pizza in the world but no one will buy one if they don't know it exists! :hmm:

[LTNman]

Oxford Airport does not have the feel of an airport but of a general aviation airfield. Passengers have to pass though the main security gate then drive on restricted access roads to get to the terminal.

Not sure friends and family meeting passengers would even be allowed through to the terminal.

[dead_pan]

What about putting a new passenger terminal on the land to the north-west of the runway, with direct access from the A44? Wouldn't interfere with existing GA activities, plenty of space for a whopping car park, billboards etc.

Oh hang on, I appear to dashed off into the realms of fantasy again.

[PhiltheReaper]

Phileus Fogg, whilst I generally respect your posts and sarcasm is best appreciated in this country, I wonder if there was any actual constructive content in your last post at all.

I would point out that nobody has suggested a train station is to be built at the airport, so don't worry yourself about warning everybody off. I would also point out that there is a more strict definition of a palace than there is of an airport, and should you so desire to meet that definition (50 rooms or more from memory?), you would be welcome to re-name your abode.

Lastly, I feel it is important to suggest that Oxford has been in this "airport as opposed to aerodrome" game for such a short period of time, it's rather surprising they have come as far as they have. It is true that other airports in the country are trying to do a similar thing to Oxford, and that there may be an argument to be made for Oxford sticking with the business traffic for which it is well suited. But, I don't think that it's a fair comparison to suggest that the chances of success at taking scheduled movements are negligible. As I have said before in this thread, I think it's important to remember that this is a new venture and to be patient in assessing the outcome.

Many people have picked up on the unusual feel of the airport, with the little security hut and they are right, but perhaps as time goes on, and the operation at Oxford becomes more settled into this new role, the investment will be proven to be viable, and such issues may be dealt with?

It is my view that anybody, presenting any firm opinion on the success of lack there of, for this airport is probably a little more certain than circumstances currently allow for.


Rant over, if rant it came across as :ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

Phil.

Members were talking about an airport rail link, there is no denying that!

In the good ol' days UK regional operators would operate such aircraft types as DHC6's, EMB110's, Do228's, Do328's, SD330's, SD360's, Jetstreams or similar, all in the 18 seats to 36 seats range and such an airfield/airport might find itself serviced by an 18 seat (ish) aircraft.

And one operator I worked for in a previous life could, of a weekend, fill 44 seater aircraft from all sorts of regional airports to/from the Channel Islands.

However Oxford does find itself serviced by an 18 (ish) seater aircraft and it does find itself serving the Channel Islands ... and it can't even make that work, Oxford can't even, regularly, fill 18 (ish) seats to/from the Channel Islands!

And the comes along a (third world!) F50 operator ... If there is money to be made on such routes in/out of Oxford then why haven't the likes of Manx2 jumped on it with their modestly sized aircraft?

Because there's insufficient market to be had in/out of Oxford, that's why!

And sorry if my posts disappoint, that I don't share the level of enthusiasm of aircraft enthusiasts, but 50 seater operations in/out of Oxford ... Well it's just ridiculous.

And think about this one ... Had there not been a WWII and/or a Cold War would UK have as many airports as it does have?

[Fairdealfrank]

As for a railway station at or near Kidlington, it's very unlikely until and unless the airport becomes a lot busier.

Teesside has a station, imaginatively named "Teesside Airport". It's about 0.3 mi. from the terminal, and on a line that links Middlesbrough in one direction and Darlington in the other, but pax numbers do not warrant it being reopened, even before 2009 when the (BD) MME-LHR service was still running.


Quote: "And think about this one ... Had there not been a WWII and/or a Cold War would UK have as many airports as it does have?"

Good point! Probably not, but since we have the infrastructure, along with congested roads and expensive and crowded railways, let's put it to good use, and enhance the domestic air network.

[NCIS]

With reference to the station at Teesside Airport being closed it has remained open, albeit with a summer Sunday service of one train each way, presumably this being cheaper than all the legalities of closure. According to Wikipedia 'with 18 passenger entries and exits between April 2010 and March 2011 Teesside Airport is the least used station in Great Britain'. Whilst the airport is DTV Airport the station is Tees-side Airport (with the hyphen) on the National Rail website!

[onyxcrowle]

Perhaps though in future as the roafs become ever motf congested and maybe even tolled, People will want to use a more local airport or rail station.
Perhaps smaller air like Oxford could serve as feeder airports. Taking smaller aircraft ( with runway and other improvements ) such as the A319. . A link to Hs2 and Heathrow

[VickersVicount]

Any feeling on loads for the new Oxford routes ?

[Phileas Fogg]

A recent reference/comparison was made with Bristol/Lulsgate.

Well BRS's catchment area runs thru South Wales, up to around Gloucester, across to Swindon then down towards EXT and all the way down to Lands End and beyond.

All these people trekking up from Cornwall and Devon, LHR is a tiring drive away, LGW and STN and LTN etc. even worse and unless they dare to venture driving along the A303 they're all going to be driving along the M5 past BRS, the first 'realistic' international airport they pass by and 2 hours nearer to home than LHR, BRS has a mega catchment area.

On the other hand Kidlington is sandwiched between LHR, LTN, BHX and BRS not to mention others such as Gloucester, anything more than a 30 minute drive from Kidligton then far more convenient to drive to one of t'others which will offer better services, schedules etc.

UK is never going to have wall to wall airports, it doesn't need wall to wall airports, Gloucester, Kidlington and Coventry are just three trying to develop, they're all so close to each other and other airports also it simply isn't going to happen.

[Expressflight]

I spend a fair bit of time trying to estimate the feasibility of air services between city pairs. One of the first things to establish is the population contained within the natural catchments of both airports concerned. The demographics of those populations are also important.

As OXF is fairly central within the county of Oxfordshire it's probably reasonable to say that the county's population roughly forms its natural catchment, this being 635,000 souls with Oxford comprising 152,000 of that number. I haven't looked at the demographics but I would guess that per capita income is above the national average and that the professions rank highly among the employment figures.

Taking the above into account I would think that the potential may exist for an OXF-EDI double daily air service. One of the biggest hurdles is making the potential market in Oxfordshire aware that such a service is being launched and one of the first questions I ask any airport with similar ambitions is "How much are you prepared to spend in the first 12 months on marketing/promotion of the service?". Perhaps in this particular case the answer was "Not much" if reports of poor marketing are correct.

The above thoughts certainly aren't a detailed analysis of the potential for success, and I haven't even mentioned the type of equipment the route might need to be successful, but I wouldn't dismiss its possibilities out of hand as some posting here seem so keen to do.

[mixture]

I can't see what the problem is - the runway is exactly the same as LCY and now they've got all the boring stuff sorted - RFF, ILS, Security etc.

Another factor is probably the usual story of NIMBYs, more of which are likely to be found around OXF than LCY.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "With reference to the station at Teesside Airport being closed it has remained open, albeit with a summer Sunday service of one train each way, presumably this being cheaper than all the legalities of closure. According to Wikipedia 'with 18 passenger entries and exits between April 2010 and March 2011 Teesside Airport is the least used station in Great Britain'. Whilst the airport is DTV Airport the station is Tees-side Airport (with the hyphen) on the National Rail website!"

Interesting, believe that's what is technically known as a "Parliamentary" train. However, even if the station is de jure open for one train/week, it is de facto closed, because all but one of the trains don't stop there. That makes it worse than useless as an airport station.



Quote: "On the other hand Kidlington is sandwiched between LHR, LTN, BHX and BRS not to mention others such as Gloucester, anything more than a 30 minute drive from Kidligton then far more convenient to drive to one of t'others which will offer better services, schedules etc."

In the unlikely event of small scale operations or a LCY-style set up at NHT, would OXF survive? Could the two co-exist?

[Yak97]

2 F50 on the ramp but no where to go? Not a lot of movement for an 0730 dep to EDI. Canx??

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Just interested, would it be possible for Joe Public to buy a ticket for that ONE service....

Glf

[Expressflight]

The EDI arrivals board would suggest this morning's flight is NONOP.

The evening flight is shown as operating as scheduled.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Just interested, would it be possible for Joe Public to buy a ticket for that ONE service...."

That's a good point! One thing is certain....it won't be a return ticket.

[davidjohnson6]

At the risk of straying very much off topic, the parliamentary train in question calls at the airport only in 1 direction and only on a Sunday at 1219. The last preceding flight to arrive lands about 0930. The first flight after midday departs at 1725. Thus in the best scenario, one either has to wait almost 3 hours after landing before catching an onward train, or one has to arrive at the airport almost 5 hours before one's flight departs.

Description of parliamentary trains can be found at
Parliamentary train - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_train)

Train tickets are most certainly for sale (otherwise one could sue the railway company for no longer providing a service), but are of little or no use to people intending to fly in this case. It is possible that most tickets are purchased specifically by collectors - there's a nice BBC feature at
BBC News - On board a real-life 'ghost train' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18644343)

Numbers of people entering, exiting and interchanging at a UK station are published by the rail regulator at
Station usage (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529)
If you sort the spreadsheet by column V (total entries and exits) you will find that Britain's quietest station is indeed served only by a parliamentary train.

Back to the main thread:
While Kidlington might be deserving of a station in its own right, it is extremely unlikely that Oxford airport can possibly justify the expense of building of a station specifically for the airport for at least the next 5 years. Given that Oxford station is not in the city centre, and Oxford generally has good bus services, I find it very difficult to see public transport from city centre to Oxford airport being anything other than a long bus ride.

[dead_pan]

Given that Oxford station is not in the city centre

Its as good as - a ten minute walk at worst. You're right though there are pretty good road links north from the centre so buses would be the obvious mode of transport. There are two large-ish park & ride sites between Oxford and Kidlington which are both well served with buses which could travel on to/from the airport. They could also just about double as off-airport parking.

Incidentally the parkway station planned just north of Oxford as part of the Chiltern Line link-up is I believe going to be close to (maybe co-located with) one of these park & ride sites.

Does anyone have any info on the loads Minoan have been achieving?

[LTNman]

One has to ask with 2 aircraft available why was the EDI service cancelled. Maybe no one was booked on it?

[davidjohnson6]

LTNman - if you want to know Minoan's load factor from a reliable source, you need wait only another 3 weeks and then the CAA will reveal all...

[harriewillem]

Today's DUB also cancelled....

I would say flying less at 10 pax, you pay them the cancellation fees acc. the rules it is cheaper as operating...

Oh wait... they won't be flying at that time at all... :E

[Hangar6]

Never did ten either direction yet not even counting bags !!! Just make sure credit cards used for ticket purchases ! Odd set up no marketing at all , ever.:ugh:

[dead_pan]

I wonder if Minoan tied to GTE for their marketing, as most (all?) of the previous operators have been?

If they are, one look at their web site may explain why no-one is booking. Talk about amateurish...

AT THE MOMENT, YOU NEED TO CALL US TO ENQUIRE ABOUT PRICES AND AVAILABILITY ON ALL ROUTES, BUT WE WILL SOON BE ADDING AN ONLINE BOOKING OPTION FOR THESE GREAT DESTINATIONS. DUE TO THE SIZE OF AIRCRAFT FLYING THESE ROUTES (50-seater for Edinburgh and Dublin, 19-seater for Jersey, Guernsey and Belfast) EARLY BOOKING IS ESSENTIAL. CALL US NOW FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THESE EXCITING DEVELOPMENTS FROM OXFORD AIRPORT.
To make the general website even more helpful for our many clients, we have added two special functions. When you visit one of the pages, you will see one, other or both of the following buttons:

http://www.greatexperiencetravel.co.uk/images/buttons.png

[WK622]

Not sure I understand the last post - why wouldn't you just go the airline's website. I just did and and like them or not, it's perfectly functional, indeed better than many others.

Perhaps more significantly, I noticed this morning that the airport now has a pay and display car park - with just 3 cars in it. I think this is what most of us locals can't understand - why the airport is doing absolutely nothing to advertise the flights. More cars, more income for the airport and with start ups, particularly for non UK based airlines, it's the kind of help they usually need. And get. It will certainly take more than a few lines in the Oxford Times and the odd interview on BBC Oxford to make people aware of the flights.

[dead_pan]

Oops my bad. Its just in the past GTE have played quite a prominent role in marketing flights from OXF. Interestingly Minoan's site states return flights from EDI on some dates in April are fully booked.

[LTNman]

You can be sure that any passengers booked on those cancelled flights won't be flying Minoan again in a hurry.

[Barling Magna]

635 passengers in total in March.

[rob39]

Can you advise where passenger numbers can be obtained???

[tarnehat]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201303/March_2013_Provisional_Airport_Statistics.pdf

635 terminal passengers... jaysus, that's like a 15% load factor

[Phileas Fogg]

Percentages?

635 passengers over 85 x 50 seater flights equates to 7.47 passengers per 50 seater aircraft.

I told you all along that London/Oxford Airport would be a runaway success ... Didn't I? :)

[av354]

Actually of the 3900 seats available in March (including some cancelled dates) the average load factor was 16.28% (635/3900), therefore 8.14 pax per F50 :)

[G-JNHP]

Hardly surprising given its newness and an apparent lack of advertising, let alone convincingly communicating the time, convenience, and relaxation benefits to those within, say, a 30-minute catchment. This is obviously a shame, and it'll be good to see how it performs in the forthcoming months.

[LTNman]

If they last that long. Lets hope so but it will be a long slog and the airline might loose faith.

[Barling Magna]

I knew Loose Faith. Great girl.........:)

[mikkie4]

new her sister gimmy faith

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "I knew Loose Faith. Great girl...."


Quote: "new her sister gimmy faith"

Knew them both!

[WK622]

Local press has Air Links J31 flts to Jersey, Guernsey and Belfast starting May 15 from Oxford. There's no stopping London-Oxford now, next it will be easyJet! :):):)

[EMB-145LR]

The only way Oxford even stands half a chance of having a successful air service is if someone akin to Aer Arann, KLM, or Flybe started services. The Guernsey, Jersey, IOM and BHD services barely carried any passengers last year when they were operated under the Manx2 brand. Unless Linksair go all guns blazing with PR and advertising they will fall at the first hurdle. Minoan will probably also go the same way unless they get the word out soon.

[Phileas Fogg]

The posting of links to commercial airline websites, without paying for it, is a forbidden practice under the rules of pprune Freddy my boy :)

[davidjohnson6]

Linksair say on the website they will launch scheduled flights from 13 May (less than 3 weeks away) but ftickets are not yet on sale. I see an impending train crash. Anyone want to predict when / if flights will actually begin or how long the airline will last ?

[av354]

My guess is July

[airhumberside]

or how long the airline will last ?
They've been in business around 4 years already, and scheduled flying isn't all they do. If the scheduled experiment fails, that won't automatically mean the airline does as well

[dead_pan]

It is a mystery why the airport operators don't swing in behind the likes of Minoan and Linksair with their own PR and marketing. They appear to go to great lengths to attract them in the first instance, then seem to leave them to their own devices once they have got them there.

I work in and around Oxford and occasionally pick up the local papers - I can't recall ever seeing any adverts for the airport or the airlines operating from it. There's precious little press coverage save for the odd little piece about their summer timetables etc. The commercial radio stations I listen to don't carry any ads either, AFAIK.

[Aero Mad]

How is Links Air going to surmount the licensing requirements on OXF-GCI by 13 May? The ATLB in Guernsey requires a couple of months to approve licenses; unless they already hold one (which I'm not aware of), this is going to be quite a struggle. Overall it seems quite bizarre to me that they have set themselves such a tight target when they could happily have launched, to much fanfare and with great preparation, in early June and still taken advantage of summer traffic.

These services will need a lot of advertising to work. The Wetdream is unfortunately not as good as its nickname in several respects; yes, it does the job but I'm not confident of its ability to make money on the routes proposed by Link Air - especially with maybe a 10 pax load per flight. IMHO they should have a 6 month prep time with some effective marketing/promotions as well as excellent lead-in fares. Obviously that requires cash in the bank, but to make this sort of operation work long-term you've got to be prepared to invest.

[pabely]

Ok, I'm pro Luton but I can see no chance of any of these routes working. You need very deep pockets to start anything up and pull loads from established routes.

[Jerbourg]

The application for OXF-GCI was published in the local Guernsey paper earlier this week, so thinngs are obviously underway, however the ATLB are not known for speedy decisions...

[derelicte]

Lots of people with lots of lolly in the vicinity, also LHR is a major PIA to get to from the sticks. Never say never.

[davidjohnson6]

May I be so bold as to enquire why it takes so long for a route like OXF-GCI to be approved ? Assuming the airline is financially stable with ample cash and operates sensibly, I would struggle to see an obvious reason to turn Links down if they were going for a start in mid June rather than early May

[No RYR for me]

Anybody near a window knows what the LF is today? :confused:

[Barling Magna]

Why not open a window yourself? This is a live video webcam view:

wencam.oxfordairport.co.uk
(http://webcam.oxfordairport.co.uk/)

[dead_pan]

dead pan, Oxford airport is no mere ten minute walk from the city center

I was talking about Oxford's train station (at least I think I was). Check my post and the one before.

Not sure what the Reuben brothers' game plan is either. Maybe it provides them with some sort of, ahem, tax advantage? They are clearly investing in it, however there's precious little point having a nice shiny airport with new terminal, radar etc if there's this seemingly constant turnover of airline operators. It doesn't exactly reassure the travelling public, knowing that a route may only be running for a few months before it is pulled. Business and GA work well; they just can't seem to get any traction with airlines for whatever reason.

[LTNman]

Oxford Airport Boosts Business Flights With Long-Distance Travel - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-02/oxford-airport-boosts-business-flights-with-long-distance-travel.html)

London Oxford Airport has more than doubled the number of departing business flights since 2006, making it the U.K.’s fifth-largest hub for corporate travelers, ahead of Stansted and London City Airport.

Daily business aviation departures rose to an average of 8.1 in 2012, compared with 3.2 in 2006, the airport said in a statement today, citing figures from Eurocontrol. More than 5,900 corporate flights flew to and from the airport last year, compared with 24,674 at London’s Luton airport, the top U.K. airport for business flights.

London Oxford has sought to attract larger business jets by adding ground-handling equipment, boosting its fire and rescue capabilities and increasing the licensed take-off distances of the runway. The addition of two Global Express jets by Hangar 8 Plc (HGR8), formerly based at the U.K.’s second-largest corporate hub, Farnborough, has added cities like Chicago and Mumbai to its charter destinations.

“These aircraft bring the wider world to Oxford’s front door,” James Dillon-Godfray, the airport’s development director, said in the statement.

Located about 11 kilometers (6.8 miles) north of Oxford and about 100 kilometers from central London, the airport was rebranded as London Oxford Airport in 2009.

Biggin Hill and Northolt were third and fourth in 2012 in corporate flights, according to Eurocontrol’s OneSky Database.

[pabely]

I had a dig at another spotters forum, a hell of alot of Pipers, Cessna & other turboprops listed as movements with the odd other biz-jet. Do we know the breakdown of these figures? I feel it is a little misleading as PR.
Just because you log a flight plan with Euro-control to go through controlled airspace is this what we call a 'business flight'?

[Heathrow Harry]

In the USA most business flights are in Cessna's etc etc and turboprops - only a minority of businesses operate jets for obvious cost reasons

[controlx]

Eurocontrol define the business aviation sector by the following aircraft types (ICAO designations). Those that are airliners normally, but used in a general aviation role are identified as 'Business Aviation' in their statistics:

AC TYPE ICAO CODE E55P GSPN DJET CRJ2 GLF6 HA4T G150 HDJT E135 E145 ASTR BE10 BE20 BE30 BE40 BE55 BE56 BE58 BE90 BE9L BE9T C208 C25A C25B C25C C340 C411 C414 C421 C425 C441 C500 C501 C510 C525 C550 C551 C560 C56X C650 C680 C750 CL30 CL60 DA10 DA20 DA50 DA90 E50P EA50 F2TH F900 FA10 FA20 FA50 FA7X GALX GII GIII GIV GL5T GLEX GLF2 GLF3 GLF4 GLF5 GULF H25A H25B H25C HF20 HRZN HS12 HS25 JCOM L29A L29B LJ23 LJ24 LJ25 LJ28 LJ31 LJ35 LJ40 LJ45 LJ55 LJ60 LR25 LR31 LR36 LR55 LR60 MU30 P180 P31T PA31 PA42 PA44 PA46 PAY2 PAY3 PAY4 PAYE PC12 PL12 PRM1 S600 S601 SBR1 SBR2 SJ30 TB70 TBM7 WW23

[OXF ATC]

OXF sees its 'Business Aviation' roughly split one third turboprops (King Airs, Cheyennes etc.) and two thirds jets. None of that includes the new airliner activity which comes under commercial ops under the Eurocontrol definitions.

[Winniebago]

Blueskynews published that story too and added the table comparing all the London region airports since the 2007 business aviation peak which showed (average daily business aviation departures):

NAME 2007 2012 % Change Since 2007 Peak Year

LONDON/LUTON 43.1 33.8 -21.58% FARNBOROUGH 32.4 26.2 -19.14% BIGGIN HILL 18.1 15.2 -16.02% NORTHOLT 10.4 10.6 1.92% OXFORD/KIDLINGTON 4.1 8.197.56% LONDON/CITY 18.3 7.7 -57.92% LONDON/STANSTED 9.1 7.2 -20.88% CAMBRIDGE 3.2 2.8 -12.50% LONDON/GATWICK 2.7 2.5 -7.41% LONDON/HEATHROW 3.4 2.2 -35.29% SOUTHEND 2.7 1.6 -40.74% CRANFIELD 1.4 1.1 -21.43% LYDD (LONDON ASHFORD) 0.5 0.6 20.00% MANSTON-KENT 0.8 0.5 -37.50%

TOTAL FOR LONDON REGION
150 120

[WK622]

Just to be fair, having been critical of the lack of advertising by Minoan in previous posts, a number of Oxford buses are now carrying adverts for the airline. They have also been advertising for Fokker 50 engineers based at Oxford in the last few weeks.

[Hangar6]

6 pax today highest in 13 dayside?
No local marketing
Very odd set up one flight had ZERO pax last week

[pabely]

Any advertising at the DUB or EDI end? Product awareness is everything!

[dead_pan]

Finally saw an ad for Minoan on a bus in Oxford a few days back - quite restrained compared to what you'd get from RYR etc. I think it could do with being a bit more shouty.

[No RYR for me]

I am a negative b@st@rd on these unproven start ups and still think that the lack of advertising is amazing but credit where credit is due: they are still flying after what must have been money hammering weeks... :ok:

[Barling Magna]

1,057 pax in April.

[EMB-145LR]

Where are you getting the 1,057 figure from? Bearing in mind that they were only operating two flights out and two back a day, six days a week (DUB:W, F, Su & EDI: M, T, Th) that gives an average load of 11 PAX per flight. From my understanding the majority of PAX have been using the EDI service, while DUB has been relatively quite.

These are far from groundbreaking figures, but it's a start, and for a company that has hardly had any advertising or press coverage, it's not awful. The potential is there, but maybe a more established operator, or better marketing is needed?

I note from the Minoan web site that the current chairman is stepping down too.

[Barling Magna]

April pax totals from CAA.:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201304/April_2013_Provisional_Airport_Statistics.pdf

Other stats show about 30 of that total are on flights to destinations other than EDI and DUB, so presumably air taxis.

[dead_pan]

They're very poor figures particularly given they include the Easter break.

credit where credit is due: they are still flying after what must have been money hammering weeks

I think 'credit where credit required' would be more appropriate. How long will Minoan's management and backers hold their nerve? They can't bankroll these routes indefinitely.

[harriewillem]

Chairmans job has been done, yeah right, leaving ship: Air Transport News (http://www.atn.aero/article.pl?id=43432)

And Minoan is owned by us all as the Greek state (investement group owned for 49,9% by Greek state) has an share in this total crap project. :ugh:

[Cyrano]

It appears that the Minoan schedule has changed (only not in the "schedule" page on the website). In the booking engine I find that this week DUB-OXF is now a single middle-of-the-day flight today (Tuesday) and Friday, morning and evening tomorrow (Wednesday), and not operating at all on Thursday (presumably cancelled due to even lower than usual loads :ouch:).
Why bother operating at all with such an inconsistent schedule?

I'm sorry, Minoan Air, but surely it's clear even to you by now that this just isn't going to work.

[SWBKCB]

Bank Holiday and half-term related?

[No RYR for me]

And the latest LF's are? :cool:

[Cyrano]

A related question: why does Oxford figure in the CAA total-traffic stats but not in the route stats? I see various even-smaller-than-Minoan routes in the route stats, both scheduled and charter (Eday to Kirkwall: 53 pax in April, Guernsey to Norwich: 24 pax in April,...) but no Oxford.

[Phileas Fogg]

But Eday, Kirkwall, Guernsey and Norwich are Airports! :)

[davidjohnson6]

RYR - is there a publicly available source for Oxford's stats during May 2013 ? CAA website suggests likely to be published around 17 June...

[Dontgothere]

If memory serves me correctly, there was only one return flight Norwich to Guernsey in April with a Do328...

[davidjohnson6]

Minoan seem to have reduced their operation at Oxford from 2 aircraft to just 1 effective from the start of July. The new schedule does not seem to be just for school holidays - it continues until the end of October

Dublin goes to 3 days per week, and Edinburgh goes to 4 days per week
No flights at all on Tuesday or Saturday and more limited flying on other days.

These are not encouraging signs.

[mustrum_ridcully]

Not surprising really, I was speaking to some people from Swindon the other day and despite being only about 30 miles away from Oxford/Kiddlington only one of them knew there was an airfield there and none of them knew you could get commercial flights.

:ugh:

[No RYR for me]

Interesting quote in the programme on Low Cost Carriers on the Beeb yesterday from the marketing manager of EasyJet. After the second week of operation they could see bookings where dropping so they splashed out a million extra in one week on advertising. That got everybody their attention and the rest is history... :D

[IOMspotter]

I saw that to. it was a good programe. Ballsy decision by Stelios:ok: and his million is now worth a billion.:D

[Yak97]

Any sign of them starting from Oxford? Was supposed to be end of May?

[Cyrano]

It seems the CAA has updated their stats for March and April.

March 2013:
OXF-EDI 390 pax
OXF-DUB 209 pax

April 2013:
OXF-EDI 596 pax
OXF-DUB 379 pax

I'll leave it to someone more familiar with the actual frequencies flown (as opposed to those published) to calculate the load factors.

To try to say something positive, at least the month-on-month growth rate is encouraging... :hmm:

[davidjohnson6]

For May 2013
OXF-EDI 948 pax
OXF-DUB 519 pax

Sounds like they are now doing slightly better than OLT Express...

[SWBKCB]

Shock, horror - who'd have guessed?

London Oxford (Kidlington) Airport EGTK/OXF - London Oxford Airport News & Press Releases - Latest News (http://www.oxfordairport.co.uk/airport_news/news.htm#minoan_statement)

[LGS6753]

... no surprise, but I'm glad they are doing it in an orderly way.

[dead_pan]

Airline business 101: you can't develop a new route with minimal marketing. Odd some companies have yet to learn this lesson.

[LTNman]

It wasn't helped by the fact that Oxford Airport markets itself as a London airport and not a Cotswold airport. I would have thought that not a single passenger on any of these flights went to or came from London.

The airport will be exploring all avenues to replace the carrier with another operator at the earliest opportunity.

Yes I bet other airlines are just queuing up to throw money away.

[mustrum_ridcully]

Trouble is there already is a Cotswold Airport (Kemble) so that wouldn't help. Just marketing itself as Oxford Airport should be enough (it's the 5th most popular UK city for international visitors).

[Phileas Fogg]

Top 20 Most Popular UK Cities for International Visitors

•1 - London
•2 - Edinburgh
•3 - Manchester
•4 - Birmingham
•5 - Glasgow
•6 - Liverpool
•7 - Bristol
•8 - Oxford
•9 - Cambridge
•10 - Cardiff
•11 - Brighton
•12 - Newcastle-upon-Tyne
•13 - Leeds
•14 - York
•15 - Inverness
•16 - Bath
•17 - Nottingham
•18 - Reading
•19 - Aberdeen
•20 - Chester

Even as 8th most popular do many of those international visitors hail from Scotland and/or Ireland?

[fatmed]

Are these visitors solely visiting Oxford, or merely making the short trip from london as part of a bigger visit?

[Groundloop]

Even as 8th most popular do many of those international visitors hail from Scotland and/or Ireland?

I don't think Alex Salmond has declared independence quite yet!:ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

More creative marketing, a.k.a. bull, from Oxford Airport:

As the nearest airport to the Silverstone race track, Oxford

Ahem, from the AA routeplanner:

EGBV to Turweston/EGBT (3,002ft rwy) 8.4 miles (shorter across the fields)
EGBV to Northampton/Sywell (4,160ft rwy) 25.7 miles
EGBV to Cranfield Airport (5,902ft rwy) 26.8 miles
EGBV to Oxford Airport (5,092ft rwy) 26.8 miles

[VickersVicount]

....and how many Easyjets could you get out of those first two fields...?

[Phileas Fogg]

....and how many Easyjets could you get out of those first two fields...?

And precisely how many loaded A319's can you get in/out of LONDON/Oxford and precisely how many orange A319's turn up for the British Grand Prix anyway? :)

[davidjohnson6]

The last time I checked, neither Turweston nor Northampton have had commercial passenger service available to the general public for a very long time - I very much doubt they are capable of handling commercial passenger aircraft on a regular basis.

Minoan may not be around for much longer, but Oxford does have normal commercial scheduled passenger flights. If Cranfield and Oxford are, as you say, equidistant from Silverstone, then it seems fair for Oxford to claim to be the nearest airport to Silverstone.

[Phileas Fogg]

David,

We're talking about corporate/business jet/prop traffic for the British Grand Prix, Turweston even has a fleet of 4x4's to whizz the punters across the fields to Silverstone Circuit:

http://www.turwestonflight.com/silverstone/Koleos%20and%20Drivers.jpg

And I'm curious wherever the suggestion of A319, orange or otherwise, operations in/out of Kidlington came from? :)

[Heathrow Harry]

that would be brilliant - market yourself on the basis of a 4 day show at Silverstone every summer when the area is jammed solid anyway...........

better to try and build some regional packages including trips to the Cotswolds and Stratford etc - or even bucket & spade trips for all the people who live around the city

but I suspect the market is just too small for a regular service

[davidjohnson6]

Perhaps an academic exercise, but for June 2013
OXF-EDI 1188 pax
OXF-DUB 567 pax

I think Minoan flew to Edinburgh double daily on weekdays and single daily on Sundays in June before the schedule chaged at the start of July - please correct me if I'm wrong. On that basis, the OXF-EDI load factor would be about 26 %

[EMB-145LR]

I actually find those figures very impressive considering that there was next to no marketing or awareness of Minoan even existing in Oxford. Most people I spoke to didn't have a clue that you could fly to EDI or DUB from OXF.

To me these figures suggest that should an established airline try these routes, particularly EDI, they could probably make them work. I believe the rest of the routes that Minoan originally announced (MUC, AMS etc) don't have a hope in hell of working though.

Loganair on EDI and Aer Arann on DUB would probably be just the ticket. Maybe even bmi regional on the EDI route, good market for a 135?

[Phileas Fogg]

Yes, but what was the yield, what silly prices were they selling these routes for just to get bums on seats?

[EMB-145LR]

Whenever I looked, I found it hard to find anything under £100 one way. Every so often I'd see one of their £51 promotional fares, but they seemed to be harder and harder to find as time went on.

[MARKEYD]

Not sure if this has been picked up on yet but Minoan Air is suspending operations from the Oxford from the 5 th August

[VickersVicount]

See previous page...

[EMB-145LR]

It seems Minoan pulled out because of a row with management at Kidlington.

Minoan Air pulls out of Oxford Airport after row with management (From Oxford Mail) (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10554901.Minoan_Air_pulls_out_of_Oxford_Airport_after_row_wi th_management/)

[Hangar6]

Route already closed

[NorthSouth]

6000 pax on 500 flights - eeek. Average 12 pax on a 50 seat aircraft.

This whole thing must surely have been some kind of "accounting vehicle" to allow them to run up some costs in an EU country outside Greece, or something similar.

However I hear tourism in Crete is booming this year so maybe they have something better to go back to - and good luck to them, there was never anything for them here.

NS

[the best protector]

Did Oxford increase RFFS to cover the Minoan air flights?

[Phileas Fogg]

I'm still waiting to hear where the proposal of orange A319's thru Kidlington came from?

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd be interested to know how many people in the Oxford area

a) know there is an airport there at all and

b) there is the chance of regular airline flights from it

[av354]

@ The Best Protector - yes RFFS CAT is increased at times when the MAV F50 operates. Fire CAT is often increased to accommodate the larger biz jets as well as the commercial operators

[virginblue]

Funny stuff going on:

Trucks 'halt plane take-off' in airport contract dispute (From Oxford Mail) (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10558633.Trucks__halt_plane_take_off__in_airport_contract_di spute/?ref=mr)

[Fairdealfrank]

Not convinced if adding capacity on two of the busiest city pairs (LON-DUB and LON-EDI) was such a good idea bearing in mind that DUB and EDI are already linked to most "London" airports (including LHR, the nearest to OXF) by various different carriers.

If trying to attract business from beyond the immediate Oxford area, should they have looked at destinations not available from LHR such as INV, JER, LPL, NQY, etc. and/or destinations that can be awkward rail or road journeys, like NWI?

Either way, new startups need to be promoted and heavily adverised, that much, at least, should be obvious.

[No RYR for me]

A new unknown operator, flying from an airport that people are not aware that it offers pax flights, without any advertising....

Afraid that I TOLD YOU SO is the only answer.... The only surprise is that they had the balls (money) to do it for so long.... The only thing I did not expect was the ending.. by blocking in the aircraft and few remaining passengers... :\

[TSR2]

The only thing I did not expect was the ending.. by blocking in the aircraft and few remaining passengers

And that's the way to really pi$$ off your few passengers.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "A new unknown operator, flying from an airport that people are not aware that it offers pax flights, without any advertising...."

A bit reminiscent of Brighton City Airways' ESH-POX route which lasted for just a few weeks earlier this year.

[davidjohnson6]

Frank - you are being unfair on Brighton City Airways. They lasted much longer than a few weeks. They lasted 2 months !

Commercially both Brighton City and Minoan may have been a disaster, but I have reservations about criticising these start-ups too much - if it wasn't for those entrpreneurs who are willing to put up their cash and give it a go, then the larger airlines of Europe would be much more slow moving and stodgy. A company can subscribe to the latest and greatest management theories, but ultimately fear (of competition) and greed (for cash) is what drives shareholders and senior managers - the possibility of entrepreneurs setting up in competition keeps those basal emotions alive. The losses by a small entrepreneur may be measurable and observable - but the gains through competition from increased efficiency by a much larger rival may well be both much larger and also impossible to measure or observe publicy.

At the very least, Minoan have shown that there is potential demand for an Oxford-Edinburgh route (CAA stats show with very little public advertising they managed 14 pax per flight in June) - it just needs an airline with a 50-seater and better marketing to get it going.

[VickersVicount]

weren't there often just single figures on that route ?

[Clink Boy]

I would not take too much notice of The Oxford Times, their reporting is questionable at the best of times; especially if they are reporting on the airport.

[Phileas Fogg]

Commercially both Brighton City and Minoan may have been a disaster, but I have reservations about criticising these start-ups too much - if it wasn't for those entrpreneurs who are willing to put up their cash and give it a go, then the larger airlines of Europe would be much more slow moving and stodgy.

You mean the directors of British Airways, Air France, Easyjet, to name but three, had underpants turning a shade of brown because some tin-pot outfit had started operating Shoreham-by-Sea to Pontoise with a Let410?

Yeah right, and I guess Aer Lingus's and Ryanair's revenues took a tumble when another tin-pot outfit with Fokkers started a DUB route out of Kidlington?

Way too funny :)

[No RYR for me]

You mean the directors of British Airways, Air France, Easyjet, to name but three, had underpants turning a shade of brown because some tin-pot outfit had started operating Shoreham-by-Sea to Pontoise with a Let410?

Yeah right, and I guess Aer Lingus's and Ryanair's revenues took a tumble when another tin-pot outfit with Fokkers started a DUB route out of Kidlington?


That is if these guys are reading Pprune too! That was the only way the outside world found out these flights where operating:E

[EMB-145LR]

Minoan very quietly ended their flights from Kidlington last night. Anyone know how the loads were in the final weeks? Any sign of a replacement? I know Oxford and Aer Arann were very close to finalising things when Minoan announced their expansion into Oxford.

[canberra97]

But is there any actual evidence to suggest that Aer Arran were close to finalising a deal at Oxford or was it just a rumour in the first place!

I would think it was the latter.

[TCAS_Alert]

As a booked passenger I had an email from them this morning:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Minoan Air announces the termination of Edinburgh and Dublin services from the 5th of August 2013.
All fares will be refunded by automatic transfer to your credit card account used for the payment.
The refund procedure is already in progress so it is not mandatory to contact our reservations department.
However, if you have any enquiries please send us an e-mail at [email protected].
Please, accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience we have caused to your travel plans.

Yours sincerely,
Call Centre
[email protected]


My refund came a couple of weeks ago without me even requesting it, must say I'm very happy with their communication on the matter. Just a shame that I've missed out on the F50 :sad:

[broadreach]

The Minoan Air site says this:

Quote
Termination of Oxford Schedule on 4th August 2013
After 5 months of faultless services, 99.75% punctuality, nearly 500 flights, more than 6.000 carried passengers and well over one million pounds that were invested in the operation, Minoan regrets to announce the termination of its schedule services from Oxford to Edinburgh and Dublin, due to our disagreement with Oxford Airport management on specific terms of cooperation deemed imperative for the viability of our flights.
Following the fall out of our discussions, the airport had been given advance notice of our intentions thus allowing adequate time to explore all avenues to replace the carrier with another operator.
Unquote

6,000 pax divided by 500 flights gives a pretty dismal 12 pax/flight, about the same number on an Edinburgh - Oxford flight we took at the end of May. Did Minoan ever advertise?

[LGS6753]

Summer (charter) flights to Jersey using Blue Islands ATR42 start May 10, to mid-September. Once weekly (Saturday) arr OXF 0910, dep 0940.

[Phileas Fogg]

Will they need ballast to trim the ATR42?

[davidjohnson6]

Phileas - we're talking about a 46-seat aircraft flying once per week for 18 weekends over the summer. Assuming everyone does a return rather than just one-ways, that gives a maximum of about 1,600 passengers for the whole summer.

In summer 2011 when the economy was a little weaker, the route managed 1,489 charter passengers. In summer 2012, Citywing on the route managed 3,590 scheduled passengers

Oxford-Jersey is being attempted on a very modest basis. There really isn't a need to be quite so negative about something quite so small.

[sxflyer]

Don't feed the troll

Shame they let him back.

[Phileas Fogg]

Thanks for "jumping down my throat"!

I presume the figures quoted of previous operations were achieved utilising smaller equipments on a more regular basis.

Take the NQY operation as an example, a route I know from old, one might easily and regularly transport 120+ passengers a day each way to/from LON but it wouldn't work putting a 120+ seater jet on the route once a day, or indeed a B747 on the route twice a week, the only way those figures may be achieved is by operating 3 or 4 services daily on appropriately sized equipment.

It's an old-fashioned concept that these modern day statisticians, it seems, don't grasp, it's called "operating the services when the travelling public actually want to travel"!.

Now back on to the subject of Kidlington, let it not be missed that they announced once weekly PMI services utilising S2000 equipment in recent years, it never got going.

Even more ridiculous than that was their announcement of NYC Xmas shopping charters from/to Kidlington and as for the short lived EDI and DUB services, well the less said about them the better.

The problem is, and shall always be, trying to round up enough punters if the equipment is oversized for the catchment area so what catchment area does Kidligton actually have?

Just down the M40 is the world's busiest airport, move more than just a little eastbound and one falls within LTN's catchment area, move north then BHX's catchment area, south then down the A34 for a host of C.I. services from SOU, south-west then BRS and west then Staverton, who it seems, agree with my belief that smaller equipments need to be utilsed more of the time to make such a route viable.

The problem will be that Kidlingtom are trying to fill 46 seats at 8 o'clock on a Saturday morning and from a very limited catchment area, I suggest that, at best, the operation will struggle but then what do I know, I'm just a troll ... apparently :)

[davidjohnson6]

I grant you that there are a number of other airports near Oxford. However, Jersey has no flights to either Heathrow or Luton now that Flybe have dropped the LTN-JER route, so Kidlington's catchment area on a Jersey route is not quite as constrained as might initially be imagined, unlike the greater rivalry to EDI or DUB. In June 2013 (i.e. shoulder season), the now closed LTN-JER managed 1,650 pax - in comparison, CI Travel are supplying just 460 seats of capacity for a 5-Saturday month.

If Gloucestershire can support a 2x weekly Fri+Sun Jersey route despite competition from Bristol and Birmingham, then it seem quite likely that Oxford has a fair chance with a 1x weekly ATR-42 charter taking people for 7 or 14 nights holiday.

Remember we're talking about a seasonal 1x weekly puddle jumping prop on summer Saturday to a leisure-centric destination run by a well-established Jersey tourism operator - somewhat lower risk than a daily operation from a carrier with no local brand recognition.

[Aero Mad]

Phileas, I'm often inclined to agree with you but on this occasion you might be barking up the wrong tree a bit. As davidjohnson6 points out this has a maximum capacity of 1600 over an entire summer - once a week on a 46 seat ATR 42 not being what one might call a high volume operation! Take your point on timings, but the fact is it has worked before on a very similar basis. Similar flights to JER from a seemingly bewildering array of regional airports (like Gloucestershire as discussed but also Cambridge, Humberside and others) which are operated on an almost identical basis (seasonal, Saturday-only) except sometimes using somewhat larger aircraft (78 seat BE DH8Qs). And yet they come back, year-on-year.

Given that this is such a similar operation which has worked in the past, what's the problem?

[mustrum_ridcully]

What use are flights if people don't know about them?

I recall mentioning here last year that I met some people from Swindon and despite being only about 30 miles away from Oxford/Kiddlington none of them knew about the now cancelled scheduled services and only one I think knew there was any sort of airport there.

In theory there is enough money in that area to sustain scheduled services, but if people don't know about them or the airport then there is absolutely no chance.

[Phileas Fogg]

Aero Mad,

DJ6 talks of 18 weekends and you interpret 18 weekends as an entire summer!

Well it has long been recognised that any summer season starts at Easter (19/20 April this year) thus 18 weekends terminates right in the midst of the school holidays @ 16/17 August!

Stop being a statistician trying to make the numbers look more attractive, the operator are offering a very limited service for a limited period with, for the catchment area, a large aeroplane.

You compare to Staverton, Staverton has a history of scheduled services, crikey back in the 1970's I would be controlling DC3's from the tower at Lyneham of DC3's to/from Staverton and the islands.

You compare to HUY, I worked for Air UK back in the 1980's when every summer Saturday and Sunday we would have Fokker's plodding the islands routes and, for the route still to be going to this day, might be credited that it is a long established route.

Cambridge, something of a chequered history with scheduled services, Suckling etc. but at least it has a history.

Kidlington ... Well it's a flying club come wannabee airport, charters to NYC and all that, I've got better things to do than occupy my time that discuss/ argue this point, I think it is DJ6 that has a habit of posting CAA stats, let's discuss after those have been posted and if I'm wrong I shall gladly hold my hands up.

Best Regards
The Troll :)

[Fairdealfrank]

Take the NQY operation as an example, a route I know from old, one might easily and regularly transport 120+ passengers a day each way to/from LON but it wouldn't work putting a 120+ seater jet on the route once a day, or indeed a B747 on the route twice a week, the only way those figures may be achieved is by operating 3 or 4 services daily on appropriately sized equipment.


This is an important point with regard to shorthaul flights, and the reason, for example, why LHR's capacity problems cannot be resolved simply by using larger aircraft as suggested by some.



Minoan were doomed doing OXF-DUB and OXF-EDI, especially without advertising, because they were up against neighbouring airports doing those routes with way more frequency.

JER may be another matter entirely.

[Callum Johnstone]

The CAA has today released the full confirmed route stats for the UK's airports for the year 2013 .... the OXF figures are as follows:

EDINBURGH 4,061
DUBLIN 2,174
ISLE OF MAN 133
BASLE MULHOUSE 92
JERSEY 92
MAASTRICHT 72
LUTON 23
PARIS (LE BOURGET) 18

TOTAL 6,665