Newcastle Westpac 412.

[jinglejim]

Does anybody have any info on the B412 operated by Westpac Newcastle that came to grief yesterday?
I heard they were on a search low level in the hills with low cloud cover which resulted in rotor blades striking branches causing a forced landing. Fortunately all on board uninjured.
Any info appreciated.

[Turkeyslapper]

Teams Training averted Copter disaster. (http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/teams-training-averted-copter-disaster/1395063.aspx)

Try here. Interesting PR spin on it. Very lucky by the sounds of things and glad all are ok.

Turkey

[jinglejim]

Thx slapper,

I agree , a great PR job.

[KNIEVEL77]

And I thought there was only ONE Newcastle, the proper one!!!!!!:O

[gulliBell]

4 new blades, a new windscreen and a sudden stoppage inspection, that's what I'd call an expensive day out!

[Vie sans frontieres]

Newcastle-under-Lyme or Newcastle,Co.Down?;)

[Ned-Air2Air]

Mr Ratcliffe was flying the Bell 412 helicopter in thick, low cloud in the third attempt to reach the crash site north-west of Merriwa when trouble struck.

I know they were going to a plane crash, but the third attempt to reach it seems like excessive and put the whole crew at risk.

[KNIEVEL77]

Vie Sans Frontieres,

Cheeky.........there IS only one......Newcastle upon Tyne!!!!!:ok:

[Friendly Black Dog]

Hey Ned,

Wouldn't be suprised if that was a bit of journalistic license.

Happy New Year.

FBD

[Vie sans frontieres]

I heard that when all the UK Polytechnics were re-branded Universities a few years ago the original 'new name' for Newcastle Poly was going to be City University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne but only when someone designed a logo did they realise that they'd made a bit of a boo-boo.

Sorry, is this off-thread?

Ned-Air2Air : You weren't there mate.

[deeper]

VSF, I bet ned is glad he wasn't there, so am I.

Ascended into trees, now that's different.

Some one from the Hunter region once told me that their pilots are the best in the world and would NEVER make bad crew management decisions.

What fantastic spin, but then that's why these types of "accidents" keep happening, no one takes any responsibility for their actions and are in fact praised, as in this case, for their ability to fly into things in heavy cloud, get real.:yuk::yuk:

Now you will say, "trying to save lives" and all that stuff, tug at the heart strings, but it does not wash.

Lift your visor up mate, have a good look at the responsible world.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm .....

Why not give those guys at Newcastle the "benefit of doubt" and leave them alone at least until some real facts of the situation come out.

They ARE very good operators and have a very good reputation for doing it properly .... so how about lets wait and see what the truth of the situation really is.

"Monday morning Quarterbacking" is so unnecessary!

[Ned-Air2Air]

VSF - No I wasnt but doesnt mean I am not allowed an opinion like everyone else.

I know Peter Cook and some of the others there and have a lot of respect for them, but dont know the pilot in question.

[deeper]

Your right Ned, and a fair opinion it is too,

How deep in the fog or cloud was he to not see the trees on the way up???

Very very lucky to not be a tragic statistic.

End result, rescue not done, crew put in great jeopardy, machine seriously damaged and out of service for quite a while, lots of money no longer with rescue service.

:sad:

[clearances]

Glad all are ok but if we are questioning anyone it should be SH and his band of merry men at careflight for there "press release" after the ASNSW AW139 completed a successful winch recovery of the survivor. Miss leading the public will only get you so far, those who need to know see straight through it! :yuk:

[Ned-Air2Air]

Clearences - You got a copy of the press release you can post here.

[BigMike]

Damaged rescue helicopter limps home
BY DAN PROUDMAN
27/12/2008 4:00:00 AM
THE damaged Hunter Westpac rescue helicopter limped back into its Broadmeadow base yesterday as the performance of its pilot and crew to avert disaster continued to emerge.

Pilot Kevin Ratcliffe has been praised for keeping the Bell 412 in the air after its rotor blades struck trees while nearing a rescue attempt of a plane crash survivor north-west of Merriwa on Christmas Day.

Some experts believe Mr Ratcliffe's impressive skills, along with that of his crew, were all that saved the lives of the five on board.

"The pilot and crew are trained to the highest possible standard and that has probably saved everyone on board," the service's crew chief, Graham Nickisson, said.

"It could have been catastrophic."

The incident occurred when the crew began a third attempt to rescue stricken crash survivor Scott Kennedy-Green from rugged terrain atop the Liverpool Ranges.

As Mr Ratcliffe flew towards the crash site, low-level cloud rolled in and the former military pilot decided to abort.

But as he ascended through the clouds, it became apparent that the machine was inside the forest canopy and its rotor blades struck trees.

The debris crashed on to the fuselage, smashing the windscreen and causing unknown damage to other parts of the machine.

However, Mr Ratcliffe was able to take the helicopter to a safe height and flew it to a paddock four kilometres away.

The pilot, air crewman Danny Morris, rescue crewman Michael Legge and two paramedics clambered out uninjured.

A rotor blade was later taken by road to the scene where engineers worked to replace it before the machine was flown back yesterday afternoon.

A full investigation is under way.

Mr Nickisson said there was no relation between Thursday's incident and one involving a Tamworth-based machine in February last year when four crew were lucky to survive an engine explosion more than two kilometres above the ground.

Mr Kennedy-Green's family has travelled to Sydney to be with him in hospital.

The successful Sydney-based real estate auctioneer has minor fractures, cuts and scratches and is in a stable condition, according to a hospital spokeswoman.

http://www.theherald.com.au/multimedia/images/full/423435.jpg
BACK SAFE: The Westpac rescue helicopter yesterday. - Picture by Peter Stoop

[Ned-Air2Air]

Mike - Thanks and provides interesting reading, especially the PR spin on it. Very similar type spin as the Kiwi BK117 that clipped the top of the hills between Wellington and Masterton.

Was actually after the NSW ambo press release that was being referred to.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...

Ned .... I'm not sure there is any comparison to the Kiwi Bk incident!

Perhaps we shouldn't even go there.


:eek:

[Te_Kahu]

I suspect Ned was referring to the media coverage/angles/spin from the publicity machine more than anything else.

Certainly it has been my observation that the Hunter Valley operation has, at least in recent years, had far superior CRM, procedures, experience and training than LifeFlight and its aviation supplier Airwork.

The BK incident in the Tararua Ranges was an accident waiting to happen.

Back to Ned's point! Both were written up as "pilot was a hero" story.

TK

[Blackhawk9]

Interesting interpretation of the Maintenance Manual, Chapter 5 Conditional Insp 5-30 (Blade strike or rotational system torque spike) clearly states, If a blade is sufficiently damaged to require replacement, main rotor hub req's over haul, how could they change a damaged blade in the field then fly home?, i've been involved in the odd one or two blade strikes on 412's some with minor blade damage but ok to fly home and others requiring blades, hub and MGB change in the field, there isn't realy a grey area here, its stuffed and you change the lot or its ok to fly, to me if the blade or blades contacted trees so hard debris smashed the windscreen and damaged the airframe and a blade has to be changed you are up for major component changes before it fly's again!
I hope i'm wrong and it was only a press Bullsh1t story (poetic licence in the news story attached by Big Mike) again , or that helo should still be in a padock 4 km from the impact with the tree waiting for major work

[jinglejim]

'The pilot and crew are trained to the highest possible standard and that has saved everyone on board' said crew chief Graham Nickisson.

I think Mr Nickisson needs to have a hard look at his operation if he thinks his crew are trained to "the highest possible standard"
I would have thought a professional crew would not have put themselves in that situation they found themselves in the first place, proper decision making was clearly lacking given the fact they attempted 3 times to reach the accident site, in low cloud high terrain? Where was the CRM?

[MS29513-017]

Well said Blackhawk9 i was thinking the same thing.
I hope they have not made a seriously bad maintenance decision on top of an ops incident for the sake of tying to gloss things over.
They tend to be the worst ones to make and normally come back to haunt you.

[tribal]

Interesting comment that Jinglejim had..."a professional crew would not have put themselves in that situation"
Are we to assume then that professional crews never have human failings... and that CRM is the answer to all of our prayers?
Clearly this captain, while having been in receipt of quality training with this outfit ( if what is said here is true) found himself in a predicament where he wished he wasnt.
So what would solve this type of thing?
It sounds as though this company has done all it can to avail the pilots to training and decision making...Is there a factor of this being a high profile incident, ie plane crash, that swayed the captain into pushing the envelope? Is ego at play to a degree?
I think the situation solves itself in that he (and we) learnt a lesson here....and maybe we all should keep this in mind when we decide to "give something a go"...whatever our reasoning.
I think that attempting to punish an operator on Pprune, because of tall poppy syndrome is harsh....we all should be looking at ....hey it can happen to a good operator....how should this type of thing be avoided in future.....Because they put some effort into providing a safe service through investing in training doesnt mean they are exempt from incident....or from on the spot decisionmaking which goes awry.
I make no comment on the 3 attempts or the flight of the helicopter after the work in field....as Im in doubt as to its truth.
The decisionmaking of the crew is clearly in question here, its lucky it turned out as well as it did.....Think about what happened here and take it home with you....Im sure this crew has...and will be more capabably equiped in future......but be careful before you throw those stones, you may find yourself looking down the barrel one day.:ooh:

[gulliBell]

Do we know if the blade strike occurred before or after the survivor was winched out of the bush by the 139? If I recall, the video that was broadcast on the TV news shows the 139 winching the survivor out of the bush with the 412 hovering close by. I can't imagine after a blade strike as described that the 412 would hang around and watch whilst the 139 completed the rescue. Makes me suspect they went in after the 139 departed the scene, and their job was to recover the deceased passenger. I didn't see much in the way of low cloud on the wide shot of the winch. I'm only speculating here, but it would be an interesting development if the 412 whacked the trees after the 139 completed the rescue. No doubt all will be revealled at the subsequent enquiry.

[piswit]

GulliBell:

Get your eyes checked. It looked like a BK117 to me.

[gulliBell]

Glad we got that cleared up...
p.s. maybe those involved in whacking said trees should get their eyes checked as well :oh:

[Clarence]

From my observations, the standard at Westpac Newcastle is decidedly "ordinary" and they have a long history of covering up their mistakes. Amazing how you can make a massive stuff up and yet come out of it as "heroes". It is very concerning that professionalism and safety get pushed aside for the sake of a good story or a good media release.

And yes, everyone makes mistakes (I should know I've made enough of my own) but you don't nearly kill yourself and then tell everyone how well trained and fantastic you are.

[Blackhawk9]

Something I have noticed before with the Westpac 412 SP at Newcastle they are about the only 412 operator in Australia operating with their Nitesun in the forward position just under the Radar ,all the other operators have moved their Nitesuns back to just fwd of the fwd crosstube , in the Fwd position as on the Newcastle machine then the aircraft is limited to a max speed of 100kts (as per flight manual sup) , how often has that machine been flown over 100kts with the Nitesun fitted? (which is why all the other operators moved it back , as in the aft position no speed restriction applies!)
But obviously their Engineering and Operations department know this and Placarded the instument panel with a decal ( Max Speed 100 Kts with Nitesun fitted)and enforce the speed restriction......

[heliduck]

Heliduck Observation 1 - The quantity & quality(?!?!) of comment on an incident is proportional to the size of the machine involved. Knew a bloke who clipped a tree in an R44 once & he lost his job with barely a whisper on pprune - hero to zero!
Heliduck Observation 2 - As mentioned previously those of us not present don't know the facts & therefore shouldn't comment, but I will anyway. The way I see it there is only 2 possible scenarios which took place - the pilot knew the trees were there & decided to fly through them with his rotor blades or the pilot didn't know the trees were there & inadvertently (read **** himself) flew through them with his rotor blades. Either way, with most employers he would be called a few things, but hero isn't one of them.
Heliduck Observation 3 - Bloody hell they were lucky! I'm very happy they all walked away from that one. I couldn't imagine the stress levels in the cockpit going inadvertent IMC that close to trees(if that's what happened). A good day for all that they landed skids down, & after surviving that experience the pilot will no doubt have different thought processes if ever faced with those decisions again.

[Turkeyslapper]

BH9...do you have some intimate knowledge of how operations and maintainence are conducted at Newcastle?

I don't work for them and never have but you are starting to make some serious accusations and assumptions (crews and engineering routinely and knowingly breaking flight manual limitations, aircraft flying without appropriate maintainence action etc).

So enlighten us, how do you know what goes on there?

Turkey

[Blackhawk9]

Turkey, I don't know what goes on there.

But, having worked on one or two EMS equiped 412's both in oz and overseas and been involved in more blade strikes on 212's/412's than i'd like to (about 6) only 2 of these machines were within damage limits to keep flying all the others reqd major component changes due to the limits in the Maintenance Manual, so in that respect I find it hard to reason that the aircraft is in the major component maintenance class and not in the fly away class, given the description in the press and the fact they changed a blade in the field ,

the Nitesun install on the nose has caught out at least 2 operators I know of who were blissfully flying along at over 100Kts with that installation, the nose attachment point is the old 212 point and a 212 is lucky to do 100kts with a Nitesun on, the 412-FMS-12 Nitesun has no limitations for the performance of the a/c with the nite sun on BUT that is with the nitesun in the aft position (fwd of fwd cross tube)approx station +50, the fwd position is approx station -15, most operators operate a flir on the fwd positiom which has a climb limit on the a/c when fitted and the Nite sun on the rear position which does not have any restrictions on it.

Why did I bring this up , I have an enquiring mind and I like to see a/c operated correctly, by ALL operators, if all is above board no harm no fowl, if not....

[gulliBell]

Eagerly waiting to see how this one gets written up in their mission log here (http://www.rescuehelicopter.com.au/wrhs/operations/MissionRegions.asp):

[piswit]

BH9

FYI

" A blade strile is any incident during which a rapid deceleration of the drive system occurs due to conact of the main or tail rotor blades with the ground, water, snow, dense vegetation, or any other object sufficinent to cause any of the following:

Main rotor blades- Any impact damage to the leading edge or lower skin which exceeds the limits spcified in Chapter 62. Any skin cracks"

There are other criteria but not relevent to this incident based on the info on this forum.

The Question is did the drive system experience "RAPID DECELERATION" ?
and what constitutes it?

[Blackhawk9]

Don't know about you piswit but if I hit a tree at 324rpm i'd consider myself "rapidly decelerated"

[LHSboy]

Clarence


From my observations, the standard at Westpac Newcastle is decidedly "ordinary" and they have a long history of covering up their mistakes.


I'm interested to know how you come up with your observations, some facts to back them up would make a great read. You are obviously in the know when it comes to the goings on behind the scene there so do enlighten us. :)

[riadbec]

Careful what you say

[Clarence]

:hmm: Oh LHSboy, where do I start!

[Red Wine]

Blackhawk9.

What an impressive Resume, you are quite obviously qualified to make comment:

been involved in more blade strikes on 212's/412's than i'd like to (about 6) only 2 of these machines were within damage limits to keep flying all the others reqd major component changes

Most EMS pilots in Oz, [including myself] have never hit anything hard in their entire career, yet alone 6!!

Quite impressive.

[Nigel Osborn]

Is Blackhawk a pilot or a LAME?

[Curious2]

No matter what you say about them you do have to admire their PR amchine. They do have a reputation for being very professional but to be fair all of these comments generally come from within the organisation and I haven't heard any from outside.

If you look at the history of their service you will find that their new machines have generally been to replace crashed ones! Prior to the Bell 407 it had been a while, but still things like this do spike curiousity. I have no knowledge to pass comment either way.

Incidentally BlackHawk9 by my reading is a LAME and to suggest that he personally flew the 6 bladestrikes is a bit extreme.

[sunnywa]

All I can say is that I'm glad everyone is okay and they were lucky they were flying a Huey. This story goes well with some of the events in Chickenhawk. I don't think my BK would have stood up as well.

Safe Flying to everyone at Hunter.

[TODDLER21]

Curious2,

A comparison between the B407 accident and the B412 should not really be made given the circumstances of each event. If you are unsure of what happened to the B407, check the thread " Westpac Helicopter" on Prune.:ok:

[Sandy Toad]

Well a quick glance at BH's profile shows he is a widely experienced LAME. Tho I guess the blade strikes could still be his fault if he is really really bad at towing helis in and out of hangars! :)

[Curious2]

Careful what you say

I can't believe this quote came from riadbec - this is the guy with all the crap to say about the NSW EMS contract.

If nothing else at least you are consistent in your blind defence of non-government rescue organisations without bothering with any facts.

Maybe you are just turning a new leaf for the new year?

[monkeytard]

I have never worked at Hunter. But one of their ex crewy's did tell me that "Hunter are the elite in EMS/SAR in Australia". That in its self has to make you think about how they operate...........

[deeper]

They have always had that opinion of themselves, a mutual self admiration society,:rolleyes::rolleyes: