Doom and Gloom at Air Partner

[Blake 7]

Dec 8th 2008

Shares in Air Partner fell by more than 10 per cent after the private jet airline group gave warning that second-quarter trading was below internal targets.
The company said that since its annual results in early October there had been a significant and well-documented further deterioration in the global economic climate, meaning that second-quarter profitability was 15 per cent lower than last year.
Moreover, the group said that its forward orders were down 50 per cent and that trading may remain below expectations. Aubrey Adams, the chairman, said that there had been a polarisation of trading conditions over the past year, from strong trading, through to the global banking crisis, to today’s economy woes. The shares fell by 59½p to 500p.

[hawker750]

Blake,
That is not doom and gloom it is economic fact. Nobody from British Airways to Air Partner to the corporate flight department of Ford will be able to escape the consequences of the economic situation. We all have to work through it and all have to accept the consequential pain. In my view it will not be before Summer 2010 that things start to return to a normal market in our industry. My company made good profits 2004-2007.5. I am glad the money is still in the bank!

[merlinxx]

Strange that Blake7, I thought Tony was still the Chair, not this Aubrey Adams?

Or maybe I've missed something?

[Monkey Boy]

Mr Mack stood down a few months back (it was announced formerly in November 2007) end of an era really. He's still around as the non-executive director I believe. The new guy started April 2008.

[V12]

Perhaps this thread could be more accurately re-titled "Doom and Gloom Everywhere"?

(unless some folk want to start threads to say their business is unaffected...)

[Affretage]

There is rumours flying around in France that AP have lost a lot of private clients , and they are in a desparate attempt to launch another AP card scheme here to try to prevent more clients to defect to Netjets. They are even thinking about paying potential client's penalties to enable them to break out of their chosen card scheme. Now that sounds like dirty tricks to me, if you ask me.

That's what you have to do when you are the biggest .....
.... in terms of office space, employees, coffees consumed, air breathed etc.

One day clients will understand, that using bigger brokers only means that you are paying bigger 'broker fees' - for nothing.

In the meantime, Air Partner brokers with share options have seen their options reduced by two thirds. Maybe they should ask for proper salaries instead so that AP has the same salary costs like other 'big brokers'.

Good luck.
Affretage.

[Monkey Boy]

They are even thinking about paying potential client's penalties to enable them to break out of their chosen card scheme. Now that sounds like dirty tricks to me, if you ask me.


Doesn't sound like dirty tricks, just an attempt to win business in a tough market. There's nothing underhand about that I'm sure.

[G-TTTT]

Affretage: wrong on all counts. AP isn't losing clients to NJ; it isn't buying business in by paying others exit payments. It isn't desperate. France is still profitable today and AP are just extending their UK JetCard product into Europe as planned last year.
As for 'bigger brokers and bigger fees', in case you haven't noticed it is a competitive world out there and no one can afford to be over-priced. Did you get muddled that AP France grew again last year and its biggest rival closed down last month? It's great to start rumours, but the facts are still the facts and they don't change.

[Blake 7]

AIP weren't having a lot of fun running up to the last AGM a few weeks ago:

"* AIR Partner is notoriously secretive. But it has now gone too far, says Pirc, the activist shareholder group. Pirc is calling for a revolt at next week's annual meeting over Air Partner's remuneration policy, which includes a “unique” non-financial performance bonus, a long-term incentive plan with no conditions attached, and “discretionary” payments to directors."

Any feedback as to how Pirc got on?

[Monkey Boy]

Hmmmm - sounds like a couple of people on here have hidden agenda's. I can take a guess as to who Affretage could be, and I'm sure Blake 7 could be an "ex" from ZRH perhaps.

The first post is a non-story, which purely reflects the market today and then it ends up as a bun fight about the director's renumeration package. Come on guys, it's difficult enough at the moment without anyone trying to stir it all up. And before anyone starts banging on about me being an AP employee, I can tell you nothing could be further from the truth! They wouldn't want me!

[Affretage]

Monkey Boy

You are obviously a monkey within the Air Partner cage. If you have anything to do with AP France, then you should be able to read and understand the following. Read it carefully. If you enderstand French and you still insist that previous comments are bullsh1t, then I guess it is time for you to va te faire .... :mad:[/font]


Compte rendu de l’entretien:



Analyse de l’existant :



- Le ralentissement économique va provoquer une baisse de l’aviation d’affaires

- Les officiels et les hauts fonctionnaires du gouvernement Sarkozy sont un véritable relais de croissance

- Perte de 40% des clients d’Air Partner au profit de NetJets (Attrait pour les cartes)

- Lancement d’une carte Air Partner en début d’année offrant plus de flexibilité et d’avantages que celle de NetJets :

o Pas de limites de durée (24 mois pour NetJets)

o Pas de contrats d’engagement

o Financement des pénalités imposées par NetJets en cas de rupture des contrats

ð Impact 60% de la clientèle perdue récupérée

- Très faible impact prévu du Very Light Jet : Les turbopropulseurs sont plus intéressants économiquement



Contraintes des acteurs du marché de l’aviation d’affaires :



- Manque d’adaptation de la réglementation Européenne à l’aviation d’affaires

- Les contraintes de sûreté

- Les contraintes environnementales





Facteurs clés de développement de l’aviation d’affaires sur un aéroport :



- Le développement de l’offre de services :

o Les cartes forfaitaires

o Les cartes de fidélité

[Monkey Boy]

Right, what part of:

And before anyone starts banging on about me being an AP employee, I can tell you nothing could be further from the truth!

Is difficult for you to understand?!

However, a rough translation of the French text would be:

"Report of maintenance:
What exists analyzes: - The economic deceleration will cause a fall of the aviation of businesses - The official ones and the senior officials of the Sarkozy government are a genuine growth relay - Loss of 40% of the customers of Air Partner to the profit of NetJets

- Launching of a card Air Partner at the beginning of year offering more flexibility and advantages that of NetJets:
O No limits of duration (24 months for NetJets)
O No contracts of service
O Financing of the penalties imposed by NetJets in the event of rupture of the contracts 2D Impact 60% of the recovered lost customers
- Very weak impact envisaged of Very Light Jet: The turbopropellers are more interesting economically Constraints of the actors of the market of the aviation of businesses:
- Lack of adaptation of the European regulation to the aviation of businesses
- Constraints of safety
- Environmental constraints Key factors of development of the aviation of businesses on an airport:
- The development of the offer of service:
O Contractual charts
O Discount cards "

So, Air Partner seem to think that they're offering a better product than NetJets, and are willing to put their money where their mouth is and buy people our of the NetJets scheme. Where's the problem?! Surely if the clients are happy at NetJets they will stay, and if they're not then they will want to try something new, and this could be for them?
I have never said that your claims are "bullsh1t" (paranoid much?), all I said was that there's nothing in them that people didn't know already and that it sounds like you've just got personal "issues" with a company that's trying to get an edge in a tough market.

[2604]

That is not doom and gloom it is economic fact. Nobody from British Airways to Air Partner to the corporate flight department of Ford will be able to escape the consequences of the economic situation.

If that is not doom and gloom, please tell us what it is then...:confused:

[learjet50]

LADIES/GENTLEMEN

Everbody is having a tough time Air Partner included however like me Air Partner have been in the business a good many years and have ridden out the recession before and they will again

There ar lots of good people at Air Partner who have worked there a good may years and have lots of experience.

There is no way these people will let the company down

There maybe Doom and Gloom at Air Partner as there is at a good number of other companies but rest assure they will weather the storm..


By the way I do not work for AP but I know lots of people there who are good loyal workers..


So is that it now can we put this to Bed


Bi Bi Good night have sweet dreams

[Affretage]

AP may have ridden out recessions in the past. But this time it’s different. Flying private jets has become ‘unacceptable’ and parasites (middlemen) such as AP will find it harder to earn their commission. As I said earlier, lean companies will survive this downturn, not ‘top heavy’ companies like AP. People like AP are proud to have more people, more offices, more coffees consumed and more gas emitted per person.

If Netjets and Jet Republic can’t make it work, how does AP intend to make it work ?
Their share price says it all. Investors are losing confidence in the model.

When the going gets tough, the last thing, customers want to pay for are ‘broker commissions’.

As we all know, broker commissions are money for nothing !

Good riddance.

MS
Affretage

[StressFree]

Why has the flying of private jets become unacceptable? (as is stated above)

:eek:

[Privatejetbroker]

there i was thinking that customers were paying for our service & account management & having a phone glued to ourbedside 24/7/365 incase they call!!

fair comment - oui or non?

[PPRuNeUser0215]

If Netjets and Jet Republic can’t make it work, how does AP intend to make it work ?
How can you compare Jet Republic with NJE ? One has been here (Europe) for over 10 years and the other one.... errrr....Ok they are involved in coffee advertising.
Surely you could have picked a more representative company than Jet Republic in order to make your argument heard.
As for quoting "Their share price says it all. Investors are losing confidence in the model.", it doesnt take 2 minutes of watching any stock market performance these days to see that loss of confidence goes well beyond the Air Partner stock.

[V12]

Worth noting that three quarters of AP's business is not private jets. AP has a mountain of cash the envy of every private jet operator in europe and so if AP goes bust it will be as one of the last one's standing. Woe are the rest of us first; lets hope not.

[His dudeness]

AP may have ridden out recessions in the past. But this time it’s different. Flying private jets has become ‘unacceptable’ and parasites (middlemen) such as AP will find it harder to earn their commission. As I said earlier, lean companies will survive this downturn, not ‘top heavy’ companies like AP. People like AP are proud to have more people, more offices, more coffees consumed and more gas emitted per person.

If Netjets and Jet Republic can’t make it work, how does AP intend to make it work ?
Their share price says it all. Investors are losing confidence in the model.

When the going gets tough, the last thing, customers want to pay for are ‘broker commissions’.

As we all know, broker commissions are money for nothing !

As much as I disliked brokers to earn money for nothing, I did work with AP and other for a long time. for me, there are 2 ways to do business as a little air taxi operator:
1) invest heavily in PR to get the clients
2) use brokers to get your aircraft airborn. let them do the advertisement

We did have a solid clients base and were able to fill in a lot through brokers. I always like AP since they were honest and paid.
I never viewed money earned by brokers as money for nothing. Lets wait and see, but I seriously doubt AP going out of business soon.

[Blake 7]

The only thing that Air Partner has is cash; how much more is the market cap of the business than the value of the cash it currently holds?

The commercial side of the business has been terribly wounded in recent months. Losing the only real commercial aircraft star performer they had, after all the other key people had left, gives the impression of a crew abandoning ship.

Truth is AIP really isn't that good, and is beginning to lose those juicy government contracts, either because of extraordinary margins it charges or providing aircraft that are unfit for purpose.

A recent example involved the Irish Defense Forces:

THE DEFENCE Forces paid €2.5 million to lease two helicopters in Chad that have effectively been grounded since it emerged they were not licensed to carry troops.
The cost of leasing the two Russian helicopters and Ukrainian crew is contained in a report on the embarrassing mix-up which will be handed to Minister for Defence Willie O'Dea.
An investigation into the matter was launched in September by Defence Forces Chief of Staff Lieut Gen Dermot Earley with Mr O'Dea requesting the full report.
The investigation examined how senior military personnel signed off on a 10-month contract valued at €2.5 million without realising the aircraft they were hiring could not be used for their primary purpose of carrying Irish troops around Chad.
The helicopters can still be used to ferry equipment and could be used to evacuate personnel in an emergency, a spokesman said.
The Mi-8T choppers were leased from Air Partner Commercial Jets, a UK company, and became operational in July. Dutch personnel serving alongside the Irish in Chad raised concerns that the helicopters were flying without proper certification.

With that level of service, governments will look elsewhere, AIP will continue to lose customers and profitability.

[Monkey Boy]

beginning to lose those juicy government contracts, either because of extraordinary margins it charges

You guys crack me up! These contracts go out to tender, and you don't win a tender if you charge too much! How do you know what margins Air Partner are working on? The Commercial Jets part of the business works on very low margins I believe. Maybe Blake 7 lost out on a deal to Air Partner and is feeling bitter?!

Face it - Air Partner have been around for nearly 50 years, there's money in the bank and they have a loyal customer base which isn't going anywhere in a hurry. Like it or not, they'll be around for a long time so I guess we'd all better get used to it!

[Affretage]

Monkey Boy

If they're using dodgy operators to win contracts on price, they are not going to last very long.

They've been telling customers for far too long how good they are. When clients start to see through the bullsh1t, AP start to lose clients, full stop. AP's profits have been far too big for far too long. It is a competitive world out there. And the old AP bullsh1t story of 'we have been around for a long time' is starting to wear thin.

As I said before, AP are the biggest in terms of chairs occupied, coffees consumed and air breathed under one roof. That's all.

Their share price says it all. They are on their way out.

They may have a bit of money in the bank, but it doesn't last long if you have to pay 120+ staff every month.

My opinion - the show's over.

MS
Affretage

[ithaca]

G-TTTT,

Ref your post on 24th December, #8:

"Did you get muddled that AP France grew again last year and its biggest rival closed down last month?"

Who closed down last month?!

Thanks.

[learjet50]

guys

I said it before and I will repeat..


A/P have been riding the waves for 50 + Years they started as Air London way back with Tony Mack Snr (RIP) a lovely gentleman.


They Have Massive Surf Boards with the Worlds Best Surfers so no matter how big the Waves they will Survive and they deserve to they are not goingy to give up and drown

Good luck to all at A/P you deserve it

Lets Knock this one on the head Guys/Gals A/P are here to Stay


As I said in previous statements I Do not work or have any financial involvement with A/P but have known them for many Years



Regards

[Affretage]

A/P have been riding the waves for 50 + Years they started as Air London way back with Tony Mack Snr (RIP) a lovely gentleman.

They may have been riding the waves for 50 + years, but as and when the punters disappear, it becomes extremely difficult to stop 120 + staff from drowning in those rather high waves !!!

AP's average punter is rich. But they are unlikely to add to their wealth next year or the year after, so they will tighten the purse strings. And guess what, the first thing they will cut out is private air charter. Suddenly, first class with BA seems good value for money !!

I am not the only one who has lost confidence in AP's business model. Just look at their share price. Doesn't inspire confidence, does it ?

Middlemen / Parasites get cut out when the going gets tough !

If you still have shares - start selling !!!!!!!!

Best rgds
Affretage

[Time Traveller]

Pathetic (de)ramping Affretage

Gone short on AIP, have ya?!

[merlinxx]

Agree Tony Mack Sr. was one of my mentors at LGW in the early 60s. I asked the questions, he gave me the answers, it still holds today:ok:

[Affretage]

Time Traveller

If you thing AIP is such good value, you had better start buying some shares. As for me, I am dumping my stock. Wanna buy some ?

Good luck.

Meilleures Salutations
Affretage

[learjet50]

Sir

why do have such bias against Air Partner.

if you have shares in A/P its up to you what you do with them..

You are obviously an ex A/P employee who for some reason left the Company or were disposed of.

Air Partner Management may be misguided at the interview stage with how good am i however they soon find out the true colours of any employee they are not fools and they dispose of the fool

Stop calling A/P and let them get on with the job which we all admit will be difficult in the next year and we shall see if your predictions come true
If they do I will eat my Beret @@@@@

I Think Not ....

A/P have a Strong Customer Base Worldwide they will survive maybe by the skin of there teeth bt they will survive.


Is the Uk Royal Family/PM going to start using
Esay Jet for Travel around I THINK NOT

As I have said before I Do not work for or have any dealings with A/P any more however they will survive (Trust me I used to be a Doctor)



Au Revoir

[Antanov]

Some good posts on this subject and almost everyone has a valid point of view despite the badinage. Fact is that the share price is down from a high of over 1360 to as low as 444 last week - but in reality, who in the world of AIM listed firms is doing any better?

AP has always been a solid performer and we can expect the hard working boys and girls to pull themselves out of the mire through sheer hard work and determination. AP does that better than anyone and it has an unshakeable belief in its own strength which can be a double edged sword. Of course, that won't work if all the hard working boys and girls go leaving only the not so hard working. The AP staff really don't love their management - in fact quite he opposite so the good staff tend to be easy pickings for those upcoming brokers who want quick wins.

The problem for AP is that this time round the recession is deeper, the heights they reached in the good times higher (so the fall is further and harder) and for the first time they face the bad times with the weight of an enourmous and unyeilding overhead at Biggin Hill which must be bleeding them of cash at an alarming rate in the current market.

If recent their press releases are to be believed they are going to build a big hangar at Biggin Hill - I think I actually saw it under construction when I taxied past recently or is that Bernie Ecclestones place? Anyway, that must be another drain on the money front surely? There are always huge costs to that kind of project and even with finance it must take 3 million in hard cash to kick start it all. Then of course, even when it is finished there will be a few years of losses as the business builds up.

Then there is the AP senior management. They have been running AP for over20 years and as a result have no real experience outside the charter broking industry. Operating aircraft is very different to broking charter and arguably a lot more complicated for much less return. I know that they have some inherited expertise but even so there is little anyone can do to turn a profit in the current market. I am surprised that market analysts have not picked up on this Achilles Heel in the AP model - it may be AP's undoing because this time around they cannot just shed wages, dig in, work harder and pray - they have fixed overheads in terms of rents, aircraft mortgages or leases etc. which if not serviced will turn nasty and bite.:}

Over the years AP has shed a lot of talent which has gone on to add value to other operations or set up on its own - Chris Chapman or Jonathan Breeze for instance:D

This, I am reliably informed, has been a result of the managements short sighted attitude to anyone who thinks outside their particular box. They cannot be questioned or contradicted. The question is, as well as AP has done over the past few years, how much better could it have done if it had recognised and harvested all that talent? Talent is apparently stiffled under AP managment unless it is prepared to be told how to do things the AP way. That is a question that the management should ask itself and the perhaps shareholders should ask the management.

No matter, I read that they are now losing government contracts by the dozen to other brokers and upsetting existing customer base. Half year results can only be expected to be poor (surely leading to a further decline in the share price)and then inevitably cost cuts and massive redundancies.

The problem with being listed is that you always have to dance to the tune of the City - well you don't have to but if you don't you will need to have deep pockets to buy back your own shares. The AP information releases on the London Stock Exchange web site suggests they have 21 million in cash and a market cap of $47 million - So by calculation, the share can go to about 2.06 before you will be buying assets at book value - IE paying no premium or goodwill price for the share in real terms - the price you pay will exactly match the value of the assets divided by the number of shares. This assumes they lose no further cash in the meantime.

With hindsight, AP has maybe been too liberal with its dividend policy in the past as it now needs to keep up its history of returns to shareholders in order to keep the confidence of the remaining institutional investors. However, how does a Board justify keeping more than 20 million as a war chest as opposed to paying it to shareholders when times are good? One way of course is to build a big hangar and pay cash for it and I imagine that is what they are doing. That is fine when times are good but dangerous in bad times - more fixed overhead and no customers to fill it when it's finished. A big broker needs a few million in cash to buy charter lift in emergencies, particularly if it has contracts with governments as AP does - the government concerned essentially pays the broker to be able to move quickly on its behalf - something which protocol might prevent the government doing for itself. If the cash is in the bank they can weather the losses of the coming 24 months. If not it will be terminal no matter how big and ballsy they think they are. G-TTTT sounds like a post from the management the way he poffs on about the brilliance of AP and its wonders - if so he has missed an "I" from his callsign:yuk:

So anyway, the good points for AP are that it has some good staff (excluding senior managment) and 21 million cash in the bank. The biggest threats to its survival are the disastrous investment in an operation at Biggin Hill and its senior management who have remained unchallenged for far too long - after all, it was the management who decided to buy the aircraft operation and move out of the comfort zone of broking. I can't imagine any other firm holding on to its managment for so long under such circumstances. heads have to roll surely? I see they have just appointed Justin Barber to the main Board. It is stunning that he has made it that far up he AP greasy pole - or maybe the greasy pole made its way up...:mad::ooh: In any case, perhaps he is in line to be the new CEO - in which case SELL:{:{:{:ugh:

Maybe there shareholders will demand that the CEO steps down. I notice form the website that a number of shareholders voted not to renew the appointment of the Financial Director at the last AGM :ok:- quite unusual in public companies. What lies behind that?

Anyway, I am going to wait to see how it pans out - when AP shares get to 250 or less I'm buying! But I will wait for their new hangar and see what happens in the Board room...! Justin case....;)

[merlinxx]

Antanov when the head constructer steps down, thus a form of initial leadership
mentoring falls away:=

[Monkey Boy]

This, I am reliably informed, has been a result of the managements short sighted attitude to anyone who thinks outside their particular box. They cannot be questioned or contradicted. The question is, as well as AP has done over the past few years, how much better could it have done if it had recognised and harvested all that talent? Talent is apparently stiffled under AP managment unless it is prepared to be told how to do things the AP way. That is a question that the management should ask itself and the perhaps shareholders should ask the management.

This has always been their problem, and I suspect, always will be. Lions lead by Donkey's.

[Flintstone]

Lions lead by Donkey's.

Who is this person named 'Donkey' and by what of his are the lions being led?*



Antanov. you had me thinking you knew your stuff right up to this point........

AP has shed a lot of talent which has gone on to add value to other operations or set up on its own -......... Jonathan Breeze for instance

.........then you lost me.





*Sorry. I'm an apostrophe nazi ;)

[Monkey Boy]

Who is this person named 'Donkey'

Ok, you got me bang to rights on that one, however there is a specific "Donkey" there I could mention.......


Antonov's post is very much on the money though, I'm guessing he may well be one of the many who made the break. There is life beyond Platinum House, and it's a good one too!

[Chippie Chappie]

I was staying out of this one but I must say, if the internet had smell-o-vision, I’d be overpowered. One of the things I’ve noticed with this thread is that there’s distinct difference of opinion between the people with many posts to their names and most of those with only a few.

Affretage - not sure what you’re background is but it’s pretty obvious that you’ve got some axe to grind, and you’re not the only one (if indeed, all the new posters are different people). Post #23 may be wishful thinking but certainly shows no resemblance of reality.

Monkey Boy

If they're using dodgy operators to win contracts on price, they are not going to last very long.

They've been telling customers for far too long how good they are. When clients start to see through the bullsh1t, AP start to lose clients, full stop. AP's profits have been far too big for far too long. It is a competitive world out there. And the old AP bullsh1t story of 'we have been around for a long time' is starting to wear thin.

As I said before, AP are the biggest in terms of chairs occupied, coffees consumed and air breathed under one roof. That's all.

Their share price says it all. They are on their way out.

They may have a bit of money in the bank, but it doesn't last long if you have to pay 120+ staff every month.

My opinion - the show's over.

MS
Affretage

“No, of course I’M not saying (insinuating) that they’re using dodgy operators, but if they were…” What a load of tripe. The only person to suggest as such is you who can’t produce any form of evidence to back up such an allegation.

Yes, it is a competitive world out there and AP have been doing well. How about you?

If you want to speak about coffee, you need to go and chat with Jet Republic.

With regard to the Stock Market, as has been pointed out, Air Partner is not the only company to have seen a drop in share price. The more observant among us have noticed that all of the world indices have taken a bit of a dive. The FTSE 100 is down something in the order of 30% over the last year.

Blake 7, regarding the helicopters in Chad, you obviously were part of the negotiations and have a copy of the contract signed by AP and the MoD, but you’re example is just as indicting of the MoD as AP. After all, we all know the success the MoD has had with its helicopter procurement.

Antenov, not associated with Will C at all are you? But then, it seems that you’re either not in the know and/or are fishing for the information about which you speak. How many aircraft at Biggin Hill are actually owned by AP? What other services are provided by AP? It may disappoint you but there are other activities that more than pay for the facilities at Biggin Hill. As it stands, the new hanger is going ahead. So, the investment at Biggin Hill is making them money, not losing it. But now I see you have only 10 posts.

Regarding cash, you seem to be unsure of whether having it is a good or a bad thing. You question AP’s holding large cash reserves and in the next sentence say that a good operator should. ?????. The fact that AP have large cash reserves means that they are more able to see out the current financial challenges while other brokers and operators fall by the way-side. Isn’t that good for the share holders?

Also, your assessment to the value of AP is also misguided and misleading. A company is not valued on the amount of cash on the books. It is valued on its total assets and its ability to make money in the future. Ultimately, serious investors look for long-term investments rather than making a “quick buck” (which contributed to the current financial mess). When you look around and ask "who will be here in five to 10 years time?", I’d put money on Air Partner being one of the survivors.

In all, this muck-raking exercise has run to two pages and there haven’t been too many responses from AP. Must be that they’re busy working to bring in some business.

[learjet50]

Chippe Chappy

Well said A/P are not fools and they will survive as its 2 of us eating our Breet s for Affretage (Never did like the French)


Regards and may they long suceed which they will

[Monkey Boy]

In all, this muck-raking exercise has run to two pages and there haven’t been too many responses from AP. Must be that they’re busy working to bring in some business.

Not strictly true - I believe their staff are banned from posting on internet forums during working hours and many probably couldn't be bothered to do it from home!

[Antanov]

:(Not sure about AP not getting involved - Chippie Chappie seems to be very AP defensive?

Not sure why though as I thought I had said it was a great company that would pull through the bad times if any could but with some problems with its aircraft operation and the senior management.

I have met some of the AP broking staff during my time as a pilot in GA - but not for 5 years or so now as have been mainly corporate since then. I used to work for Gold Air earlier in my career - so yes Chippie Chappie you could say I was once associated with "Will C" but not any more - I cut my teeth at GAI but I moved on to fly bigger birds as soon as I could - chasing the dollars like anyone. Obviously I stilll have ex-colleagues and even friends working there. I also like to dabble in shares (though I sometimes wish i didn't!) so their position is interesting as they are capable of good earnings when times are good - hence my interest in buying AP shares. I am sorry if my knowledge of how listed companies are valued is not to your liking Chippie Chappie - i am sure you are correct and I am totally wrong but it seemed to me that if they had 21 million in cash and the market cap was 47 million (all from the LSE web site) then given brokers don't really have many assets as a rule (just computers, office furniture and the cash in the bank) the goodwill is worth approximately 27 million. If you divide the number of shares by the assets you get 205 per share. Anything over you are paying for their future earning potential and goodwill.

Of course, that may be complete rubbish like most of this forum!

Anyway, didn't mean to upset anyone.;) Just wish i hadn't broken a 5 year rule and made a post. It almost always ends up with someone slagging you with venom and hatred and it is really a negative forum when it should be positive and helpful. :(

[Wicket Keeper]

Antonov - I quote from your last post:
"Anyway, didn't mean to upset anyone.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif Just wish i hadn't broken a 5 year rule and made a post. It almost always ends up with someone slagging you with venom and hatred and it is really a negative forum when it should be positive and helpful. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif"

Perhaps you should just re-read your earlier post and enlighten us into which parts of the personal onslaughts and insults towards senior AP Management were not meant to "upset anyone", not include "venom and hatred" and not be "negative when it should be positive and helpful". Am I missing something here!!

AP are facing exactly the same issues as many other aviation companies, sorry, many other companies, given the current economic climate - it is tough for us all. Maybe our industry would benefit from us pulling together and supporting each other rather than tying to undermine those who are working tirelessly to try and ensure employee's jobs are safe, companies survive and we come out of this downturn stronger and more resiliant. Our industry gets enough of a 'bashing' from those outside it!!

Justin Barber has worked at AP for many years and has led one of the highest performing brokerage teams in the UK or even probably Europe. He has been rewarded for his continued hard word and dedication with a board appointment. Why not offer congratulations?!!

You are entitled to your opinion, however is it correct to hide behind 'Antanov' when making personal comments? I have known and respected Justin Barber for many years as have several other 'players' in our industry. Your opinion is not shared by many!!

Just a quick note on your post - some is true, but some very basic facts are not!

Trust me - I am 'well informed' on the topic of this thread!

[eghi r20]

The government are considering printing money, Interest rate expected to be the lowest for 300 years. These ‘ARE’ exceptional times for any walk of life, not just aviation.
Excel, European Air Charter, Flightline, European Business Jets, Markoss, Woolworths and Northern Rock. By the grace of god go, well.... ‘all of us actually’.
All this drivel running companies down is pointless. All businesses are up against it, and most aviation companies still solvent have at least one negative thread from a disgruntled employee venting there spleen. Careless talk can cost lives. People should concentrate there efforts on helping their current employer weather the storm instead of pointless negativity about others.

[Antanov]

Wicket Keeper

I am suitably chastended and I will never again slag a good company or undermine a decent employer nor the excellent management of Air Partners. But I am intrigued by the concept of someone who knows and respects Justin Barber. Your not his mum are you?:suspect:

EGHI R20 - you are quite right. We must all pull together. Only we won't because that is business and competition sadly.

I vow not to post again for another 5 years... the hatred...the hatred!:ugh::ugh::ouch:

Adios...:D

[eghi r20]

I didn’t say lets all pull together and share the wealth in a hand holding happy clappie club. :ugh:

I simply said for people to get their own house in order, instead of worrying about other peoples. :cool:

Please lets end this thread and the pointless others on just about every other company in existence.

[flapassym]

But I am intrigued by the concept of someone who knows and respects Justin Barber. Your not his mum are you?http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gif


Tee Hee:E They are mutually exclusive aren't they?

[Algy]

Chart courtesy of Digital Look (http://www.digitallook.com) (free, and rather good)

http://mediacharting.digitallook.com/cgi-bin/digital/chart_image.cgi?finance_chart=1&&ac=207451&action=charts&chart%5Faction=chart%5Fdraw&chart%5Fannotations=none&chart%5Fcomparison%5Findex=50098&chart%5Fmoving%5Faverage%5F1%5Ftype=none&chart%5Fmoving%5Faverage%5F2%5Ftype=none&chart%5Fmoving%5Faverage%5F3%5Ftype=none&chart%5Fprimary%5Fticker=LSE%3AAIP&chart%5Ftime%5Fperiod=3%5Fyear&co%5Fdimension%5Eheight=360&co%5Fdimension%5Ewidth=590&csi=10740&finance%5Fchart=1&fixed%5Fticker=1&id=10740&intraday%5Fprices=1&intraday%5Ftrades=1&primary%5Fchart%5Ftype=stack%5Fline&selected%5Fmenu%5Flink=%2Fdlmedia%2Finvesting&show%5Fmin%5Fmax%5Fpoints=1&stock%5Fexchange%5Fid=1&username=Algy&co_dimension^width=590&hide_volume=&plot_colour=&canvas_colour=&&co_dimension^height=360

[Blake 7]

I think that you are all missing the point.

AIP tell us that their forward bookings are down 50%.
Forward bookings aren't private jet flights are they?
They happen the week before, not months before.

AIP forward bookings come from commercial flights, and if they are down by 50% then their earnings will fall off a cliff.
Sounds like they have lost some of those lucrative government contracts.
Contracts that still exist, they just went to better brokers, with more realistic margins.

They lost the head of Gold Air, the head of Marketing, the head of Jet Card and the head of Commercial. All in 12 months.

To respond to this by paying 4 Board Members £2m a year between them, when the company will make no more than £5m - £6m in 2009 does seem rather mad.
The CFO of this broker earns more than easyjet's CFO. Huh?

I like the previous chart. Try rebasing it to the last 12 months or 18 months, and I think you will seem them down 20% against the market.

:uhoh:

[learjet50]

Gentleman/Ladies

I Have known Justin Barber for many years

He is a Gentleman/Dedicated to A/P

Things are bad dont make them hareder by calling dedicated long serving staff members

Justin I Support U



Regards



Justin If u read this PM Please

[learjet50]

BLAKE 7

They at least make a profit so even if they make a pound profit in any one year its better then a one pound loss

Does it matter what they pay the senior staff ??

As I have said many times on this forum A/P are here to stay and ride out the trouble times ahead

[BandiB]

Antanov, with similar thoughts to yourself on rumour sites, I have to commend you for what i would consider to be an exceptional and well balanced summary of the situation on the previous page. In fairness to AP, nobody can question their success in previous years and growing a cash pile like they have is proof alone that whatever it was they were doing, was right. However, if we stand back for 5 minutes we see that their main focal areas have been and still are the city, banks, high net worth individuals, government and automotive. They are losing their segment of government, nobody is travelling privately in the city, high net worth individuals must be watching what they are spending on what are luxurious items such as private travel when in theory first class on flag carriers is acceptable and the automotive seems to be in serious problems as we all know. Add to this a very big hole in the bucket, that being the purchase at Biggin Hill, no matter how much cash you have, if the tough times last for long, that cash pile soon disappears and only gets worse especially when you have share holders to answer to.
My only final comments are that companies are dropping all over the place right now and I think to continue re-iterating how long AP have been around for is irrelevant. I'm sure Woolworths said the same thing (possibly the situation was different but the principle remains the same).
Anyway, I am not posting for or against, just some outsiders veiws just like Antanov :ok:.

[Affretage]

Has anyone got any updates on AP's trading forecast ? There seems to be little or no info out there. All I hear is that the private jet has become unfashionable and a sign of corporate excess / greed. Is it time to dump the shares or are they likely to recover ? Anybody have any answers ?

Salutations
Affretage

[Monkey Boy]

Has anyone got any updates on AP's trading forecast ? There seems to be little or no info out there. All I hear is that the private jet has become unfashionable and a sign of corporate excess / greed. Is it time to dump the shares or are they likely to recover ? Anybody have any answers ?

Salutations
Affretage

Well you seem to have all the information, why don't you tell us? More to the point, a few weeks ago you said you were going to sell your shares - bet you didn't!!

[learjet50]

Affretage

Why dont you ring A/P and ask them the Question direct ?

Explain you are a share holder and would like to know what is the current situation..


There Telephone number if you dont have it is 01293 549555


Let us know your actions


My suggestion is Sell up or Shut Up



Kindest regards this Snowy Morning

[V12]

Affretage:
You claim you own stock in a company (AP) that profits from private jet travel; then you say that you’re selling because the investors are bailing out, and then you make out that the product is just a display in corporate greed and excess. Why on earth did you buy them and what are you doing on this forum, created for people making their living from the private jet industry?!!! You call them ‘parasites’ who fly ‘unacceptable’ jets.

Having said you’re selling them a month ago, now you want this forum to give you a trading update. Yet this forum gave you that on 10th December, and any investor (a) knows how to get an update and (b) knows when statements are issued. If you had a half a brain and watched other sites on the net you’d also quickly figure that, far from investors bailing out, you can trace the evidence that existing investors are accumulating at today’s price. You forget that for every share sold by someone scared, some smarter person is quietly collecting more.
Boy, are you out of your depth!

Let’s be honest Affretage: you don’t trade in shares; you’re not bright enough to invest in anything; your posts are solely designed to undermine a company that you clearly resent, and in doing so you’re happy to take a poke at the whole sector. You must be someone that AP discarded when they found you out to have a smaller brain than you claimed at interview; your holding must have been given you and you haven’t figured out what you’ve got.

And you have a habit of posting again just as this tired thread finally goes to sleep. Have you done anything positive for your employer this year?

I don’t think the aviation community is benefitting from your contributions. Have you thought about a career in politics or estate agency?

[learjet50]

Affretage

If you cant get a job as a politician or and estate agent why dont you apply to A/P to become a cleaner then you could rummage thru the bins and pick up little scraps of paper..

Or go back to selling Onions


As V12 said I suspect you were ousted out by A/P and have a personal vendetta against them.

You wont win they have more brains in there dirty socks then you ever will..

Give up Sell your shares (If u have any which I doubt) and stop giving A/P a bad name.



Good day this snowy afteroon in England


If you are French then then your whole replys make sense (or not as the case may be)

V12 I suggest we dont even give him the decency to reply to his stupid remarks

[Affretage]

You can all relax. I dumped my stocks a while ago. And what a good decision that was !!! AP are very secretive about their prospects, hence my decision to sell. If you guys still own shares, stop being defensive about the whole thing and start selling - that is if anyone is still prepared to buy your shares !!! := After all, AP's shares have lost 70% of their value in less than a year. What a good investment - NOT !!!!!
At least TM managed to cash in his chips in good time.

Salutations
Affretage

[Monkey Boy]

So you have no shares, therefore this must mean an end to your interest in Air Partner! Au revoir poo-poo!

:ok:

[learjet50]

I Agree with Monkey Boy thank goodness you have sold your shares

I really hope this is the last we will hear from Affretage.

Now you have sold your socks maybe you could go and crush some grapes for the Wine Industry and then may be you could start a thread on the state of the French Wine industry

As Monkey Boy said Au revoir

[Tequilaboy]

... thread really still going?

[learjet50]

Its still going beacause the French man who was disposed of by A/P

has a personal axe to grind

I wish he would close it now and go picking grapes

[His dudeness]

After all, AP's shares have lost 70% of their value in less than a year.

Affretage, I don´t want to get involved in the french slagging some guy enjoy here so much, but have you looked at stocks in General over the last year? Lots of good, profitable companies stock value got slashed in the current crisis (and also before). The loss of value is IMO not related to the companies anymore...its about analysts and whatnot. Total unrelated to reality very often, it seems.
And even if A/Ps Business is down - thats the reality right now for all brokers and operators.

[Affretage]

Learjet

I have sold the shares. Just waiting for them to totally bottom out. I have lost a lot of money on this bad pony. If I am lucky I can buy them again for £2 or less a piece, and hopefully they will go up and I recoup some of the money I have lost. So it is a bit early for you to breathe easily about me selling my shares. My biggest problem is that for many years everyone says that AP can throw sh1t in the air and gold comes down. Maybe this is no longer the case with this company. All I am trying to find out, is it safe to buy the shares again ? Does this company have a future, or is it all over with the private jet biz ? The general news in the newspapers is that it's over for private biz jets.

And talking about slagging French people, don't forget we have many more airports and general aviation than the British, so please don't go on. You people live in a country that doesn't like aviation. This is why so many airfields have been shut in the last years without any intervention by the government !!!! In France every village has an airfield and every town has an airport. Try to beat that !!!

Now ... fous-moi le camp.

Salutations
Affretage

[Vertigo_FDS]

...and every village has one of you.

Salut

[merlinxx]

Who stole your toys, back in yer pram there's a good fellow, and don't throw your toys out again, otherwise Nanny will come and spank you:ugh:

[learjet50]

Affretage

I cannot believe your post

You have sold your shares OK you made a loss which is regretful

But now you saY You are going to buy some back and then you say the market for Biz jets is over.

Oo La La

you say every village in france has an aerodrome I dont think so ///

if every village had an aerodrome there would be an awful lot of airports

Is there an aerodrome at Balleroy near Caen NO

There is an airfield at CAEN I accept but not Balleroy.

I will send you some Toys are Us vouchers so you can buy some extra toys to throw out of the Pram OH NO I will buy you some A/P Shares instead.

Good evening from the UK have a Nice Weekend and stop posting silly posts as I Have always said A/P will be here for a long time or I will eat my Beret.

By the way i will say again I do not work for or have any connections with A/P

I worked with A/P for lots of years as an Aircraft Operator and have never had any reason to dout there Business.


Have you not got a job pressing Grapes yet (Although the French Wine industry is in decline) Maybe spend your money buying shares in the Wine Industry) and leave A/P to sort out there problems which they will



Au Revoir

[dynamite dean]

zzz....

la vie continuez

[Affretage]

Vertigo

...and every village has one of you. Salut

You are wrong !!! There are thousands of us :} But we don't mind you biftecks visiting us. And visit you should, as you should eat at least one decent meal before you die !!!

learjet50

Have you not got a job pressing Grapes yet

The way aviation is going, I had better look for a job pressing grapes (with my bare feet as it was done 100 years ago). I won't wash my feet, p1ss in the grapes, and will ask for the wine to be exported to Britain. Cheers. :)

PS: Before I forget - there IS an airfield in every village. Just because your 'english' AERAD doesn't have a plate for it, doesn't mean it doesn't exists. France has more airfields and airports than the rest of Europe combined, and probably more airfields than have been closed in the UK.
Flying in France is like flying in the US. The only difference is that we are shut between 12:00 and 14:00 for lunch as we enjoy our food. We don't do English lunch (telephone in one hand, sandwich in the other). We work to live, not live to work like you English.

Salutations and happy landings in France (when you get a chance)
Affretage

[Flintstone]

Troll starts thread because he has personal issues with AP.

Troll makes a number of self-contradictory posts and is exposed.

Troll switches tack and attempts to divert attention from his earlier idiocy using ummmm, different idiocy.


That about it?

[Flintstone]

Why me Merlin?

At least I'm saying the guy has exposed himself (with some prodding) for the fool he obviously is.

[Duck Rogers]

Affretage.

I let this run with the intention of giving you the opportunity to produce some meat for the sandwich but it seems that you've some as yet undefined problem with the company and now a country.

Enough.

[Affretage]

This post has been edited to show salient points only.

Duck

I have never worked for AP.

My only reason for posting was that I have lost a lot of money on the shares of AP and wondered if there was any prospect that they might go up again. Meanwhile AP's shares have dropped further to £4.10. When they reach £2.00 I might buy some more - 'might' being the operative word.

[Dumbledor]

The End...

[julian_storey]

France has more airfields and airports than the rest of Europe combined, and probably more airfields than have been closed in the UK.

Didn't the Germans build quite a few of them? :D

[Flintstone]

When they reach £2.00 I might buy some more


You sure about this? I mean, your business nous thus far has resulted in you only losing money. If you're that smart why didn't you sell sooner?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Got a point about the food though.... :}

And yes I did have lunch with a handset in one hand and a sandwich in the other....:rolleyes:

[Monkey Boy]

don't forget we have many more airports and general aviation than the British

And sometimes we can even get to them, when you're not all on strike :}


(Well, he started it)!

[Dumbledor]

And when they are not closed for lunch!

[Duck Rogers]

Think this one's just about had it. Let's put it out of its misery.


http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ejQ7rkWjD1UKbM:http://www.veryicon.com/icon/preview/Business/Free%2520Ecommerce/padlock%2520Icon.jpg