Qantas Reduces LHR slip Time

[packrat]

Qantas has now reduced LHR Slip Time to 38hrs for its Tech and Cabin Crew.
Minimum rest in this port is 36 hrs.If an inbound aircraft is late by more than two hours the crew must have this(36hrs) as a minimum.This means that the next service due to be operated by this crew will accordingly depart late.
Several years ago,in the northern winter,Qantas had 3 jumbos sitting at heathrow with no crew eligible to operate.
Having a local LHR base crew probably gets around this problem.
These new LHR patterns are now more arduous with many patterns now operating SYD/ADL/SIN and then onto LHR.
An already arduous trip has now become more so.Once the A380 starts operating SYD/LHR the trip will become incredibly physically and mentally demanding.
Sick leave and fatigue will increase exponentially.
The human body cannot cope with back to back to back trips of this nature.
Where is the duty of care?
How can crew provide an outstanding level of service when they are exhausted?
Who needs a name badge when you are just a number?

[twiggs]

If you don't want them back to back, don't bid for them.
They are not a junior trip and I'm sure plenty of the crew who are forced to do JoBerg back to back will take them off your hands.

[Transition Layer]

Tech crew have had LHR slips around the 38/39hr mark for at least 4 years. The only requirement being that we have to operate 4 crew up and back (which rules out BKK during summer which is 3 crew).

Our min rest is much less than 36hrs up there. Around 20 from memory.

I guess with the LHR base crew operating the 31/32 once the 380 kicks off, something had to change with slip times.

[mustafagander]

My quick look at BP 262 LHR patterns seems more of the same. There has been a mix of short (39ish) and long (62ish) hour slips for many years.

[SkyScanner]

The agreed planning requirements for tech crew are 1 short slip per day plus a short slip for the shuttler.

The minimum slip is a combination of options but the limiting is usually flight + night. TL is spot on around 20 hours.

Once upline, the minimum requirements may be required.

[Transition Layer]

So the question is, why do Tech Crew have a min rest of 20hrs and Cabin crew 36hrs? Our rules are covered by the Civil Aviation Orders, what dictates it for Cabin Crew?

Yes, the patterns shouldn't be planned to min rest, but during disruptions I don't think it's unreasonable.

[twiggs]

The cabin crew EBA requires the lesser of 2 local nights or 36hrs after a planned single sector TOD in excess of 14hrs.
This is reducible to the lesser of, 1 local or 18 hrs by majority vote.

[argusmoon]

The point is that they will become junior trips.Particularly the more arduous trips.
More junior crew will find more of these trips on their line ..back to back
A380 crew cant bid.
Do they have minimum rest requirements?
Twiggs you dont fly do you?

[Wod]

Once the A380 starts operating SYD/LHR the trip will become incredibly physically and mentally demanding.


What's the logic here. Larger aircraft: larger crew - what's more demanding?


The cabin crew EBA requires the lesser of 2 local nights or 36hrs after a planned single sector TOD in excess of 14hrs.
This is reducible to the lesser of, 1 local or 18 hrs by majority vote.



Looks on the evidence that everyone is comfortable. QF know the planning rules. Crew know the agreement.

With punctuality in the region of 90% this looks like normal risk management. Some late arrivals will result in crew rest delayed departures - but not often.

If all of Northern Europe is clagged, that has been the case forever and the passengers understand.

I think packrat has over reacted to a minor change.

In my younger days I was told by a Senior QF Management pilot that optimum crew rest was 12 or 36 hours depending on preceding slips, because going to bed, getting up fresh and flying beat the heck out of resting for 12 and then wasting 12 hours waiting for the next flight 24 hour after the first. So 36 hours makes sense to me as a planning criterion.

FWIW:)

[DEFCON4]

Why have a LHR base when you have QCCA?
QCCA are on the same Ts and Cs as the LHR base.
The administation costs in LHR are a duplication....
Rent,Admin staff wages and all the other ancilliary costs associated with the base.
If the LHR base was closed you would save these costs and still have the same crew cost.
Anyway just a thought
Some of those new LHR patterns are arduos though

[lowerlobe]

It looks like yet another straw has just been placed on the camel's back...

For the pilots reading this you have to understand the basic difference between the job satisfaction of pilots and cabin crew..

Pilots like to fly (preferably during the day) their aircraft,get their hours done and get home...

Cabin crew do not fly for the satisfaction of walking around an aluminium tube for 14 hours or so being hounded by passengers...

International Cabin Crew join or want to fly because of the lifestyle.That means travelling and seeing the world...

With the start of the LHR base there was an agreement that Australian based crew would still get one LHR trip per day leaving Australia.This meant that we could still get to LHR and do whatever you wanted to do.

That meant you could visit relatives,sightsee,shop....whatever.Now since the opening of the base, Australian based cabin crew have had this reduced again and again and now it's down to 38 hours...

It seems as though it does not matter how many things you give the company in terms of efficiency they will always want more...

[Transition Layer]

lowerlobe,

What you say, in theory, sounds correct, but I am astounded at the number of cabin crew who admit to spending entire slips in places like LHR, FRA and LAX in their room or venturing out only for a quick trip to the supermarket.

I would say that on the whole, tech crew are far more likely to be out having a beer, seeing the sights, enjoying good food etc.

Allowances form a much larger proportion of cabin crew pay and are therefore much more inclined to save it!!!

[lowerlobe]

Transition Layer...That may be the case today and especially with crew these days on less pay such as QCCA and BKK,AKL,LHR crew on much lower pay than original Australian based crew...

When I was flying we would do trips,hire cars etc....and it was a lifestyle more than a job.

Sitting in a room was not something we would do unless you were crook.In fact you almost needed a doctors certificate if you did not turn up for crew drinks....

I lost track of the number of times we would get back to the pub literally an hour or two before call...

Then again I also remember when it was tradition that the crew member on their first trip to the US would buy the rest of the crew a slab of beer.Then the suspects in the mushroom factory started telling crew that was wrong so it ended....

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Cabin crew do not fly for the satisfaction of walking around an aluminium tube for 14 hours or so being hounded by passengers...

Umm. 'Scuse me........Isn't that your job? SERVICE? :rolleyes::ugh: So, being long haul cabin crew is purely a means to get you to a slip port.

No wonder QF's on the nose with punters if that's the general attitude!

See youse! TDI

[funbags]

TDI.

I have to agree.

It sounds as if long haul cabin crew (judging by lowerlobes comments) see the job as a free ticket to their next shopping location. :hmm:

[speedbirdhouse]

A little more sound than seeing flying as your next free ticket to an alcoholic binge.

You know it's true :ok:

[lowerlobe]

see the job as a free ticket to their next shopping location
As usual it seems as though some here cannot understand what other people do ,see and think what's important in life....but then again being isolated in a flightdeck might do that to you...

funbags and Co,I said lifestyle..... not shopping and seeing how you either cannot comprehend others posts or try to selectively twist words then a career in journalism could be for you.....:E

However,getting back to your post funbags...did you apply for a job as a pilot because you liked the idea of endless hours in sim sessions?....Or is there more to being a pilot than training in a simulator?

Funbags....I know this might be difficult for you to understand but there are a number of reasons people choose a career and lifestyle is one of them but it's nice to know that tech crew do not shop when they are overseas.....:yuk::yuk::yuk:

Personally funbags,I did enjoy meeting people and that includes tech crew when I was flying and I'm glad that you do your job 100% for the benefit of the company and not for even the slightest enjoyment that you might otherwise derive....:yuk:

Getting back to the thread it's obvious that the company as usual is doing their best to take away any enjoyment crew have in their job so that they stay for as little length of time as possible.

[funbags]

Not even close speedbird.

We see flying as a career. Most of us have wanted to fly since we were little kids. Alot of us have spent tens of thousands getting a license so we can have that career. We have to do an annual medical to keep said license, and we like to have a few drinks at the other end. One "alcoholic binge" (as you put it) too many, and we could lose our job. But of course we like to have the odd big night. In fact it was lowerlobe who said that it was a crime for a cabin crew member not to turn up for crew drinks in the GOD's!

Remember, it was one of your own (lowerlobe) who said that cabin crew fly for a lifestyle. We fly aeroplanes because we love it, and for me, I want to be at home with the family more. Shorter slips (within reason), for me, are great. I couldn't give a toss about the allowances, I spend them anyway, usually on presents for the kids. That's why I agree with lowerlobes comment "Pilots like to fly (preferably during the day) their aircraft,get their hours done and get home...:

You might want to take up your opinions with lowerlobe. He apparently doesn't like the aeroplane bit of a flying career (because the passengers hound him). Cabin crew apparently are there for the lifestyle, and the crew drinks, and the sightseeing bit! I hope the passengers don't get in the way too much!

PS lowerlobe, I just caught your post. I learnt to fly because I like flying aeroplanes. I actually like going to work and the other stuff (crew drinks, travel, shopping etc) are a bonus, and not why I work for Qantas. Enjoy your retirement, realise times have changed, slips will get shorter and things aren't like they were 30 years ago.

[lowerlobe]

I couldn't give a toss about the allowances,
Funbags....

Now that's funny because one the more interesting and heated things I have read on Qrewroom was the thread about cabin crew getting more allowances than tech crew at times.....apparently not all your colleagues feel the same as you....

By the way,talking about meal allowances.What is the definition of a tech crew dinner in Narita....

A dozen or more beers and 6 Gyoza's.....
One "alcoholic binge" (as you put it) too many, and we could lose our job.
Not that that hasn't happened in Narita after a session at the truck has it Funbags????

Speedbird....It looks like you hit a sore nerve with your comment ....So let's get off the anti cabin crew comments funbags and back to the thread about the slip being reduced in LHR.....

What's next....let's see,how about re-scheduling departure times by 5 minutes so that crew miss out on a dinner allowance...Hang on they've already done that....

[speedbirdhouse]

Like I said.

You know it's true...............

[funbags]

You sound like one of those blokes that just can't give the job away, especially the politics!

Retire gracefully already, get away from Qrewroom and Pprune (1900 posts!!!!), and go and play some golf, or sail a boat (or lawn bowls).

As for anti cc comments of mine, good to see you've got a few anti tc comments of your own as comebacks! Looks like I hit a raw nerve too!

re NRT and the truck episode, exactly what I said!

Bring on the shorter slips I say! As long as fatigue levels (through proper research) aren't too great, why wouldn't Qantas want to reduce them to minimum levels. We don't have to agree with them, but Qantas aren't there to provide a travel service for the cabin crew to facilitate their sightseeing and shopping overseas!!!!

I've got to go, I'm on a short slip and it's almost time for call. See ya!

[lowerlobe]

Funbags.....I don't know about you but I haven't lost my interest in life simply because I have retired from flying....I do like taking the boat out and fishing not to mention other pursuits but I think I might leave lawn bowls to you when you retire and forget about flying.

As I said Cabin crew join because of the lifestyle and not because we want to to live on an aircraft....

If you want to have a go at cabin Crew then start up a thread about that....

[ciprian]

Some people tend to forget that this is a JOB. There are many options out there if you do not wish to spend your time in a tube for 14 hours. For some this is a career and you make the most of what you can when you are out on line.
If slip times are reduced then contact the FAAA. After all, the company is not braking any rules.
Patterns are examined by the FAAA and deemed to be 'ok' before they are released.

[roamingwolf]

ciprian,mate I don't reckon any of us forget what we do is a job and yeah the company is not breaking any rules but they are stretching them all the way to the bank.
The drivers are lucky because most people don't get paid to do what they like to do.I go along with lobey and it is a way of life for us.I don't like anything 9 to 5 or driving in traffic jams everyday to get to work.I would throw an office job in 5 minutes if I was stuck with it.Teachers don't do their job because they like to be bagged by noisy kids but they love it because they are teaching kids skills.Blokes in factory's don't do it because they like getting filthy but it pays the bills and puts food on the table and beer in the fridge.If you look at other jobs it's the same
The way ciprian,funbags & Toluene Diisocyanate go on you would get the idea that the drivers never get upset when the company chips away at their conditions.If we get the sh!!$ about our conditions being taken away some drivers forget that they moan and blue about what their not getting any more and have a shot at us.If you want to remind them all you have to do is talk about Jetstar and remind them about their jobs.
Yeah thats right ciprian,starting Jetstar wasn't breaking any rules but it still takes jobs away from QF mainline and tell me that our drivers are not upset about that.
Calling the union about anything the company does legally is a waste of time.The only thing the company understands is when the crew vote not to reduce their slip and their stuck with a delay.I've seen the drivers do it when it suits them so theres no reason we can't.

[hotnhigh]

Pilots,cabin crew, it doesn't matter. What matters is it within the rules?
If so no one has anything to go on about. The major, major problem will be the full implementation of carmen. Geezus, the first question that should be asked is, how many airlines have had major problems with schedule integrity post full carmen implementation? All because companies get very greedy at the perceived cost savings and tighten the slip times to absolute minimum and then cannot fathom why it turns to a can of worms when there are the inevitable disruptions.
Qantas has only tasted the tip of the 'power' of carmen, once all modules have had their impact on roster construction, have a look at how good 'lifestyles' are then!:ugh::ugh::mad:

[ciprian]

Roaming:
Not once did I mention anything about the drivers. Not sure how you include me with funbags and co?

Like I stated before, the FAA has access to the patterns before they are released. What options are out there if no one ones to talk to the company or the FAA?

On another note the company had the option of slipping crew on AKL-LAX runs for 36 hours as they did with the AKL based crew, irrespective if they operated 2 sectors on an A330, but they didn't. All patterns had 56 hour slips.

It has been a long time since we last saw 36 hour slips in LHR but it is not the first. If it is deemed too ardous then waht options are out there if no one wishes to speak to the company about it or the FAA?

[speedbirdhouse]

There are no options except not to accept a reduced slip in the event of a delayed arrival.
They'll get the message. :ok:

[roamingwolf]

After all, the company is not braking any rules.
ciprian,mate you said it yourself.I don't know how long you've been flying but in my time I have seen the company push and push the limits of our work rules.
If they do something which technically doesn't break the rules then talking to them is as useful as an ashtray on a bike.You have to understand that they don't give a stuff if we don't like the way it's going.
The only thing the company cares about is money.If delays start costing them money they will think about it but until that happens it is a waste of time.

[speedbirdhouse]

Am I correct in assuming that the 31 ex LHR will now be operated by LHR based crew on the A380?

If so this will be an interesting development.

AFAIK the Thais are not [yet?] going to be trained on the A380.

Lets see then.......

Daylight flight ex LHR with no Thais on board to do the real y/c work?

Should be very interesting given the reputation of the LHR-HKG day light sector.:E

[SkyScanner]

Should be very interesting given the reputation of the LHR-HKG day light sector.

What reputation is that?

[speedbirdhouse]

Ah, I give up. Hard work??

[SkyScanner]

Really... News to me and the passengers we have on that flight.

[speedbirdhouse]

Obtuse, disingenuous or stupid?

I have my suspisions......

Let me help you.

Qantas Pilot's 13 hour night sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end.

Qantas Pilot's 13 hour day light sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end.

______________

Now concentrate. This is the hard part.

Use some imagination [if you can] and try and imagine what happens on the other side of the flight deck door and the differences [if any :rolleyes:] in flight attendant workload between night and daylight sectors.

[twiggs]

Speedbird,
the reason we will now be doing the 9 and 10 is because the LHR base will be doing the 31 and 32 which will progressively be on the A380, not 29 and 30 which is the HKG flight.

This also means that if we were to be delayed and voted not to extend, all the company has to do is is send us on the 30 to HKG instead and use LHR base on the 10 to SIN.
It would be no problem for the company, but many crew would not like that and I'm sure it would influence voting.

[SkyScanner]

You must fly the sector alot as you seem to be an expert.

Btw it is an 11 hr sector. Lunch service followed by putting the pax to sleep for 8 hrs before a quick breakfast.

You assume I am tech crew. We prefer the hong kong because it gives us a chance to go out and have a good time. We have often had our passengers invite us out for parties on boats to which we all obliged.

As for what the techies do, I don't care, so long as they get us there safely is all that matters...

[speedbirdhouse]

Twiggs,

I dont think that you and your office mates have thought this through very well which is understandable given the way this company is mis-managed. You lot have the corporate memory of not much more than a nano second.

The new brooms comes in, sacks everybody they can and replaces them with pet sycophants resulting a net loss of corporate history and experience.

38 hour slips don't work in LHR when the minimum is 36. My point being that it was tried years ago and failed.

Anyway. You make it sound like swapping English with Australian based crews is going to be operationally easy?

I don't have a bid book handy but my understanding of departure times EX LHR suggests that you are seriously wrong.

Of course QF are only working to the letter of the law and as such I can't wait to bid for back to back LHRs to recipricate.

Northern winters can be so much fun. :E

Two hours Twiggs.

You lot never learn.

Scyscanner,

is that the best you can do?

My sincere apologies to all QF drivers. I just twigged that we have a plane spotter in the room. :rolleyes:

[twiggs]

Speedbird, can you rewrite that last post when you are sober?

[speedbirdhouse]

Edited said post for your reading pleasure.

[jungle juice]

It would be no problem for the company, but many crew would not like that and I'm sure it would influence voting.
Twiggs,I don't know where you work but you are not doing yourself any favours with your posts!
I don't think it's neccessary to re-quote any of your other posts is it?.

You constantly seem to take the side of the company and to people reading this it gives the impression that you are indeed in the office.
To suggest that the only reason for this change in our slip is to accomodate the 380 flights is disingenuous at best.

The company did promise us a daily trip to London and reducing it yet again to 36 hours really does nothing for that promise.We might as well be in Wagga Wagga if we are asleep in a room recovering after a long flight.
If it is as innocent as you suggest then why not give Australian based crew other flights which gives them more time in London.Even if it ended up as they do with the Frankfurt trips and have a one night slip on the way home it would be better.

This is not however about fitting in with the 380 flights.This is more about making the job less attractive to Australian based crew or at least those Australian based crew not flying the 380.

As far as the company thinks the faster they get rid of us the better.

[funbags]

"Qantas Pilot's 13 hour night sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end.

Qantas Pilot's 13 hour day light sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end."


speedbird, so if our jobs so easy, why didn't you apply for it.

Isn't in terrible how all those nasty passengers get in the way of a good shopping trip, or a visit to the London Bridge!! :ugh:

[jungle juice]

Funbags,
Speedbirdhouse's post had nothing to do with pilot workload as you well know.It was to illustrate the difference in workload between tech crew and cabin crew on day versus night sectors.

[speedbirdhouse]

funbags,

have you nothing better to do than troll on pprune? :rolleyes:

[jet.jackson]

Funbags' posts here are designed to antagonize and provoke.
Funbags has been responsible for the closure of several QF CC threads.
Dont respond to funbags and place Funbags on your ignore list.
Eventually he/she will go away

[funbags]

jet jacka**

Just because I agree with Qantas's decision to reduce slip lengths and that upsets some cabin crew (because they would like a week everywhere), doesn't mean that I am a troll.

And if people want to get stuck into tech crew about sleeping for six hours and doing nothing on the flight deck, then I will defend pilots.

Oh, and the next time the side rips out of the aeroplane or we lose an engine or have to land in a 35kt crosswind, I'll give Right 5 a call. He can come up and handle it! :hmm:

[jungle juice]

Since reading jet.jackson's post I decided to do a little research.

Funbag's post started off well in that he was dealing with aviation matters pertaining to QF and Jetstar.From the beginning of 2006 his posts have shown a definite belligerence towards cabin crew.

In fact over 80% of his posts since the beginning of 2006 have been antagonistic towards cabin crew and not aviation related to pilots.

It appears that funbags is indeed attempting to have cabin crew threads closed down.

To any cabin crew reading these posts do not attempt to enter into any debate with funbags as this just feeds his vitriol and serves no purpose.

Moderators,please do not delete or lock this thread out because of the intentions of funbags to achieve this very outcome.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Oh, what the heck! It is Xmas after all - and the question just begs to be asked.

Given the Moderators propensity for sending threads to purgatory, how on earth do threads like this one get to survive in "D & G General Aviation & Questions (http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-aviation-questions-91/)"?

Dr :8

[speedbirdhouse]

Which of course begs the question.

If you don't like it why do you read it?

[ciprian]

Is ther any rason why one can't express themsleves without lowering the standards of a helathy debate?

Funbags:
I would have to disagree with you in that crew would not like a week every where they go. In this particular instance, they would like the 56 hour slips that we enjoyed in previous bid periods. So lets not generelise.

I still think that the company is not breaking any rules and therefore can and will give crew a reduced slip time in LHR. At least the FAA are on top of it as per their e-mail. Interesting they are also looking at EZE patterns?

I ask are they any different to JNB's?

[jungle juice]

ciprian,
I'm not sure which is more likely to result in the thread closing down,your spelling or some of the posts by others.

I did not know that the Americans are interested in our slipping patterns but thanks for the info and it's good to know that the FAA are on top of it.

I still think that the company is not breaking any rules
You have mentioned this a number of times so I'm wondering what your angle is but it's reassuring to know that the company is not doing anything wrong.

The point is that legality is not the issue here but instead simple business.If there is only a 2 hour safety gap between the minimum slip and rostered slip there is not much room for error.I don't think that is their concern though because it is part of a much larger plan to annoy existing Australian crew.

The reality is that now with QCCA crew they don't really want us and cannot wait for us to leave.As such I know that when the question "will I accept a reduced slip" is asked the answer will be an emphatic NO.

[DEFCON4]

Can we keep this thread civil?
Lets forget about this Pilot/Cabin Crew nonsense.
Creating patterns that have slips reduced to minimum rest is fraught with danger.Some patterns to the UK commence with a SYD/ADL/SIN sector(s)and then onto LHR.Having 27 hrs in SIN and then 37hrs in LHR and then back to SIN is fairly savage flying.
The only good thing about these patterns is the 6 days MPG.

[ciprian]

Ups! Sory!! Next time i wil run the spel check. My bad!

No angle. Just the facts. I don't represent any one. Just thought I'd add my two cents in.

And as stated previously . . . why can't we keep the thread civil?

[speedbirdhouse]

From memory BNE based crew were given 38 hours slips in LAX within the last 12 months or so.

Minimum rest requirement in Lax also 36 hours.

When the inevitable delayed arrival occurred BNE crew would routinely not accept a reduced slip resulting in disruptions to other crew who were being turned around so that the company could maintain schedules.

Have those 38 hour slips disappeared?

I suspect they have..........

[jungle juice]

When the inevitable delayed arrival occurred BNE crew would routinely not accept a reduced slip resulting in disruptions to other crew who were being turned around so that the company could maintain schedules.
Like we all know this is the only form of negotiating that the company understands and is interested in.
If it's legal and they can get away with it they will give it every chance they can.They will only look at it if it starts to cost them money and the way to do that is not to accept reduced slips.

The one thing the company has never understood is that co-operation takes 2 or more people or groups to work together so that the outcome suits all parties.

To them it's always meant they take and you give.

[hotnhigh]

Well,well... it appears some serious re-gigging of patterns are in order for BP262. With some nasties having been discovered that didn't meet the necessary rest periods. Carmen, she's a B(*&h i tell you!

[Shazz-zaam]

Speedbird,

38 hour slip in LAX for BNE crew have always been there since the basing opened, (actual slip 39:20)
For the majority of crew these are the preferred trip as it is good duty hours (30:20), it's only 4 days away from your loved ones and therefore allows people to lead a reasonable life at home.
You only need to do 6 and a half of these per roster, if you are lucky enough or senior enough to get them. The beauty is you end up with nearly 30 days off per roster.
There has been a lot of crew affected by reduced slips over the 3 1/2 years that the base has been operating. I would say almost everyone has been involved with one, it was particularly bad when there were the issues with the engineers and their EBA.
Qantas sop is to try blackmail. Ops would say that they will give you a longer slip in Lax, say 60hrs but will send you home via AKL or MEL and therefore you will lose your next trip.
Then they will offer reduced slip allowance to sweeten the deal.
I would guess that 95% of the time the crew will chose to take a reduced slip, it's no big deal and generally only a case of 4 hrs or so, and doesn't stuff up your plans at home too much.
For Brisbane based crew it's all about lifestyle.

[twiggs]

Shazz-zaam has hit the nail on the head.
There are many crew who like minimum slips in various places.
Yes there are some crew who want to visit their family in London or whatever, but most can't wait to leave the place.
Don't forget what you lot keep telling me, this job is NOT about the destinations!
Most people do like to get home faster, and that's exactly what the minimum slip in LHR will allow.

[speedbirdhouse]

What Twiggs completely fails to acknowledge, as she has her own particular [read company] barrow to push is as follows-

Those who have the ability to vote to accept or reject a reduced slip are ALL and ONLY QAC. They will have, almost to a person, chosen to bid for the LHR trip for a reason. That reason whatever it is, certainly isn't likely to be just so they can get out of there at the earliest opportunity.

They are going to find the opportunities for whatever they chose to be there for, severely limited and are, as such, very likely to be pissed off about it.

Your augment also fails to hold water given that there are plenty of other easier and shorter trips available for those looking to maximize their time at home.

This is going to be lots of fun.:E

Shazzam,

do BNE crew have the opportunity to slip for longer than 39 hours on any other LAX trips?

[speedbirdhouse]

24 December 2008
Attention All Qantas Cabin Crew

REDUCED SLIP VOTING PROCEDURES

In light of the company’s intended reduction of the SYD-LHR planned rest from 48 to 38 hours, it may be timely to remind crew of the voting procedures that allow for reduction of slip rest.

First and foremost, only QAL (part 1) crews are entitled to vote. Consequently, QCCA (part 2) are not counted, nor participate in the vote for reduction of slip rest.

If the company wishes to reduce the rest period to below the minimum, which is 36 hours, a vote is required. Importantly,

i) a majority decision is required;

ii) if the vote is tied, then the CSM will exercise the casting vote. In the absence of a CSM, the most senior flight attendant in the highest category shall exercise the casting vote.

_______________________

Reads like a "call to arms" to me..........

[roamingwolf]

this job is NOT about the destinations!
Most people do like to get home faster, and that's exactly what the minimum slip in LHR will allow.
twiggs,can you remember what you have told us?
Can you think the same for more than a day or 2 or do you like a lot of women change your mind all the time.
One day you tell us that it's the destinations that are important and it aint the money.Now your telling us it's not the destinations.WTF
So if it's not the money and it's not the destinations what are we here for?
Speedbirdhouse hit the nail right on the head when he talked about you.
Do you think crew bid for London trips if they don't like the joint?
I can see the crew going home to see the rels for christmas and then after a cuppa telling them have to go.
Yeah right twiggs time to go back to your desk and do some work.

[funbags]

roaming,

Qantas is not here to provide a transport service for cabin crew to go home to London to visit their relatives for Christmas. If 38 hour slips are in the company's best interest, and are safe for crew to conduct in relation to fatigue issues (techies have been doing them for years), then good luck to them. Just because they spoil someones visit to the English countryside or visit to Ireland is bad luck. Do it on holidays like most of the general population. Your job is to provide a service to the passengers on board the aircraft, have a rest, and then provide the same service on the next sector. That's what you are paid for. Not to gallivant around the world. If you can fit it in, then great. Otherwise, realise that the GOD's of long slips everywhere are over.

[twiggs]

And what Speedbird conveniently fails to acknowledge is that there are other reasons that people bid for LHR trips other than to go to London.
Other such reasons are the 6 day standown, generous slips on the way up and back to/from London in Singapore, nice allowances and longrange pay.

Do you think everybody that bids for back to back 4 day LAX trips do so because they love going there?
For most it's because of the money and the days off at home!!!!!!!!!!

[speedbirdhouse]

How long is a four day LAX trip Twiggs?

I'll give you a hint.

It's half as long as an eight day LHR :ugh::rolleyes::D

____________

People go to LHR for a reason Twiggs.

They are going to be angry.

They are going to vote no.

I know.

I fly...........

[twiggs]

As I said before speedbird, in the rare occasion a vote is needed, the company will just send the crew out the next day via HKG if necessary.
Someone else pointed out that the LHR-HKG is not even a long range sector, hence only one day required in HKG.
You reckon many people will vote no when that little scenario is floated?

And the reason I know this?
I fly!!!!

[cartexchange]

wrong again twiggs.
I go to LAX because I like it there!

[twiggs]

Cartexchange, I didn't mean everybody.
The point being that not everybody bids for trips for the same reason.

It's nice to hear that the job is about the destinations for you though.

[roamingwolf]

And the reason I know this?
I fly!!!!
Who said twiggs couldn't tell a joke.
Someone else pointed out that the LHR-HKG is not even a long range sector, hence only one day required in HKG.
You reckon many people will vote no when that little scenario is floated?

At the same time twiggs has got it wrong again.
Twiggs,if you have one night in Singers and one night in London then you have to have 2 local nights in the next slip port.It doesn't matter if it is long range or not.
twiggs is right about the company trying to change your mind with the vote.They will tell us if you vote no then you will not go home via Singers.
I will vote no because we have to send a message to the company.
What we have to remember is that a no vote will cost the company money.
It looks like there are 2 groups here.
The first are those who support the company and everything they do.
The second are those that fly and joined to see the world.They did not join just to see the insides of their eyelids in a hotel before fronting up in the giggle suit for another flight.

[speedbirdhouse]

Let me explain something to you Twiggs.

Whomever dreamt this little slap in the face can spin it as much as they like.

It's a serious mistake on so many levels and for so many reasons that I can't believe that even you lot could be so fundamentally stupid.

Firstly, to compare a four day LAX trip with an eight day LHR is absurd even for you.

Those who bid for LA trips can choose two methods. Quick and nasty as in the four day LA which is without question the most senior trip in the company bar none.

Or. The can get there via AKL trips, JFK shuttles or bid for other directs with longer slips.

Everybody's needs/wants are catered for. People are happy.

Compare that with LHR.

One trip. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Now. The LHR trips that I have done of late have had a large proportion of QCCA crew on them which indicates that they are not particularly popular, in that they do not resemble a four day LA.:rolleyes:

Keeping up? Good.

The ones who do bid for them have reasons to be there and they are the only ones who can vote in event of a delay.

They are not going to be happy? Get it?

Yes we know that scheduling will threaten them with the most dire of alternatives if they vote no but the vote will have already happened. There will be no re-negotiation as in the rolling type disruption where that parasitic ice queen was able to lie and intimidate that exhausted [ and truly wonderful] female CSM during the 20 + hour NYK shuttle.

Besides, most of us have learnt that lesson and [pardon my indelicate language] your suck holes have already gone or are going to, the A380. :eek:

Now. You lot under Dickson haven't treated either myself or my colleagues very nicely over the last few years despite our wonderful efforts. You know this to be true.

Passenger satisfaction at record levels and all that. You think and behave as if it is because of the efforts of office dwelling visitors.

Well I can tell you that it's not. It actually despite your efforts that crew perform to the level that they do.

Remember a few weeks ago when I explained the conversation I had with that quite senior career FA. The excellent one.

Well, she has a beef with you lot. She calls management a word that starts with C, ends with S and has five letters and yet, she is one of the most professional FA's I've ever worked with. Loves her job, treats her passengers like gold but she is angry.

She is just one, I know but remember. We've all been lied to, bullied, harassed and intimidated under dick son's regime and those that haven't will most certainly know someone who has.

This minimum slip stuff is just perfect for those of us with a score to settle which includes I might add, just about every single QAC cabin crew member.

You know us.

We are the ones who were promised in our EBA that we would crew the A380............

My FIRST no vote will be for Phillip Woodward Brown.

[twiggs]

You still don't get it do you speedbird?
It will never come to a vote.
They will just send the crew back on a later flight if there is a delay.
They won't even ask the crew for a reduction.
You think they haven't already thought of this?
If you don't then you are dumber than you think they are!
They have a London base for more than one reason.

[speedbirdhouse]

What you meant to say was that they'll have to send them to another destination with the resultant flow on effects that that will create.

Of course you also don't have a hotel full of aircrew up there just waiting to be turned around anymore do you Twiggs :E

[funbags]

speedbird,

Whether you, I, or anybody else likes it, shorts slips are going to be the norm soon. If you don't like it, then do something else. Stop living in the 60's where 14 days trips were considered "short". The world has changed.

Your job is to provide a service to the customer, not for Qantas to provide you with a private jet to see the world. If you can do this on a 38 hour London slip, then good luck to you. If not, rest up and provide the same high service on the way home. That is what you are being paid for!!

[cartexchange]

ignore the troll and just report it to the moderator/
a:mad:

[funbags]

Trolling for what cart. It's the truth. You are there to provide a service to the customers. What's so wrong about that?? We are there to fly the aeroplane.

It may not be your preference, but it's the way of life.

Get used to more and more short slips. Qantas is trying to run a business. Not a high speed limo service for cabin or tech crew to see the world. :ugh:

What are you reporting me to the teacher for? Having a differing opinion to yours, perish the thought! :{

[packrat]

Dont feed the Troll

[DEFCON4]

Fatigue is going to be a major factor in the coming months.
There is a company provided course on EQ.For your own protection and safety everyone should do it.
This fatigue protocol is backed by legislation.
Learn to recognize the signs of fatigue.If you are not fit for duty and are fatigued then write a safety report and absent yourself from work...wherever you are.
Maybe then someone in management will realize that CC are not made of Aluminium but flesh and blood.
There is a duty of care.This applies to QCCA more than anyone.Once QF have enough A380s you will be worked into the ground.
If you make a mistake while fatigued you will be perceived as being both negligent and culpable.
Be proactive in this...it will save your job and your arse

[twiggs]

Good advice Defcon, unfortunately too often I fly with crew who insist on operating when they are ill, just so they "don't get stuck somewhere" or so they can get home.
I doubt recognising fatigue will have much impact on that, but we can hope.

[DEFCON4]

If you are an Onboard Manager and you have reason to believe a crew member is fatigued you have an obligation to stand the crew member aside.
If you are a crew member and you believe another crew member is fatigued you should bring it to the attention of an Onboard Manager.
Following a safety related incident if an investigation finds that fatigue was involved and it was known that the crew member was fatigued guess who gets jumped on?
Fatigue can costs lives
Sound melodramatic?Think again.
Twiggs..being ill and being fatigued are separate issues.They can both however lead to costly mistakes

[speedbirdhouse]

At least one recent incident where an AKL based FA was stood down by their operating CSM for being too fatigued and therefore unfit for duty.

What happens in LHR when [if] multiple crew members are unfit to operate after their minimum slip??

The Thais don't answer their phones in LHR for obvious reasons and we can't cross crew with Qantas's English flight attendants................

I'm sure you and your lot thought of everything Twiggs :{

Merry Christmas all.

[DEFCON4]

Company Fatigue Protocol:
Fatigue must be treated with "compassion and confidentiality".
Done too many back 2 back trips with minimum rest.?
Report the matter to your manager and remove yourself from rostered duties until fit.Report any matters which are not treated with compassion and confidentiality to the Association.
This is the line in the sand and it is for the safety of your wellbeing.
It is protection from an uncaring employer who pays lip service to your physical and emotional welfare
It is now enshrined in OH and S legislation

[twiggs]

Speedbird, 38 hours is plenty of time to rest, it may not be enough to go clubbing or shopping or visiting the rels though.

Merry Xmas all wherever you are.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"38 hours is plenty of time to rest,".

_____________

That isn't for you to say which is a concept that you clearly [still:rolleyes:] do not get.

One thing that can be said with certainty however is that anything under 36 isn't.:E

[argusmoon]

How often do you go to LHR and do you do them back to back?

[lowerlobe]

Merry Christmas to all no matter what you do and where you work.....

Just to prove it is the season of miracles.....
Originally posted by Twiggs
38 hours is plenty of time to rest,
Apparently,Twiggs is now a qualified medical practioner,fully able to quantify the minimum amount of rest the human body needs.So regardless of how run down you feel, you can be reassured that your health is in safe and secure hands....

The company has many such people although they are usually reluctant to tell you the university at which they attained those qualifications and how they arrived at such arbitrary figures....

The problem Twiggs is that the effect of jetlag is accumulative.So how do your studies account for that affect on the human body.Just how many London trips back to back are possible with minimum rest before a dangerous level of fatigue is achieved.....

[Transition Layer]

I simply can't believe the 'old school' long haul flight attendants agreed to an EBA whereby fellow employees don't actually get the same rights as them. Let's not talk about the pay and other rostering practices.

Absolutely disgusting...:mad:

[skylarker]

I simply can't believe the 'old school' long haul flight attendants agreed to an EBA whereby fellow employees don't actually get the same rights as them. Let's not talk about the pay and other rostering practices.

Absolutely disgustingSpot on mate. Still shaking my head....a year down the track
Now wait for Peg and the rest of the gang to come on here and say how they had no choice, and the company would have done it anyway.....blah blah blah.
Can you imagine the techies allowing the company to start up a cheaper pilot group ....pffft never....you guys stick solid.

Anyway sorry for the thread drift....now back to the original topic.

[jungle juice]

T L and Skylarker,
No point in going over that subject again as that chapter has well and truly closed.

This thread is about the lowering of the slip in London and no doubt other slip ports in the future to just above minimum slip times.
Twiggs,I can't help you if you don't help yourself.If you continue to support the company in just about everything they do when you post then it's no wonder people here believe that you are in the office.
It doesn't matter if you are or not but to say 38 hours is plenty of time to rest is up there with some of your other well known posts.
This time however,you can't say you were being sarcastic when you said 38 hours is plenty of time to rest.
The major problem as some others have said is that there is not much room for error in the case of delays.
You know as well as most of us that it is only a matter of time before a vote is needed.
If there is a feeling that the airline is messing around with slip times then there will be no votes coming in with other acts of non co-operation when crew are asked by ops for something.
The other major point as made by lobey is that fatigue is accumulative.
If you are doing back top back Londons,then you are going to have problems.
Doing this in the short term might save a few dollars but when the delays start to happen and based crew are called out then the costs will mount and someone will have to answer why.

[packrat]

Its called Jetstar

[skylarker]

Its called Jetstar

Nice try there.....and that where cheaper cabin crew work as well. Well actually they dont, its QCCA isnt it packrat?

Dress it up anyway you like, but they dont work together on the same flightdeck, on the same routes. No way would a QF techie fly with a J* techie...period.

Anyhow, as said previously, its in the past and a done deal...so we move on.

I chose to forgive but never forget.

[jet.jackson]

Domestic Crew are about to be confronted with QD.
What will they do?
QCCA will eventually all work on the A380.Thats why they were employed.
JetStar is the Cheap Pilot Group.
Eventually they may fly with mainline pilots.
Never say never.
Anyway this is yesterdays toast...old and stale

[indamiddle]

to twiggs et al
if i vote to reduce my slip then get my wake up call 33 hours later and decide i am too knackered to work am i obligated to call the csm or do i call global lifeline. what if my vote to reduce the slip was the one that got it over the line? does this change the result of the vote?
what will be my next duty/pax? pax qf31 a.m. or operate qf10 p.m. 24 hours later? any answers appreciated

[Machinegun Fellatio]

If you are fatigued tell your CSM and seek his/her guidance.If you dont agree with the guidance offered call global lifeline and write a safety report.
Write a safety report anyway
You wont know if it was your vote that got the reduced slip over the line.The vote is supposed to be anonymous.
You dont go back to work until you clear yourself.This means that you are able to operate safely.That is your call .

[twiggs]

to twiggs et al
if i vote to reduce my slip then get my wake up call 33 hours later and decide i am too knackered to work am i obligated to call the csm or do i call global lifeline. what if my vote to reduce the slip was the one that got it over the line? does this change the result of the vote?
what will be my next duty/pax? pax qf31 a.m. or operate qf10 p.m. 24 hours later? any answers appreciated

Indamiddle, I recommend calling the union to get the answer to your questions, rather than relying on the misinformation posted on this forum.

(this is not a shot at your advice MF, which sounds reasonable)

I can't see why the scenario you described would be any different to anybody who at call time found that they were unfit to fly due to illness.

[lowerlobe]

I agree that having different crew on different pay scales on the same aircraft is not ideal....

However,the precedent was already set when we operated with Thai Cabin Crew as well as New Zealand based Crew.Both of these latter groups work and pay conditions are far less than Australian based Crew.....

The pilots union as far as I know have also made some decisions which in hindsight were not that good.Their decision not to allow impulse pilots to join their union was shortsighted at best...

These same Impulse pilots were then used by Dixon to start up Jetstar and they were not impressed with the rebuke from the mainline pilots union.If those pilots were members of the mainline union things would have been dramatically different....
rather than relying on the misinformation posted on this forum.
Does this mean any information other than your own?

Since most Australian based crew bid to go to LHR for a reason it is obvious that if they were given the chance to have an extra night would jump at the chance....

The crew doing those trips go there for specific reasons and to get an extra night would be a win for them.They will be back in Singapore next trip any way so it's a win/win for them because they are thumbing their nose at the company and getting an extra night in LHR.

In fact I think that the Australian based crew would be almost wishing for a delay into LHR so that they get a chance to have an extra night....

The company will have to pay a LHR based crew to operate to Singapore and that means taking one crew out of their pool.If this happens regularly the company would not be impressed regardless of what propaganda is being fed here .....

[lowerlobe]

indamiddle....Unless you have an immediate physical condition which necessitates a doctor then you should always call your CSM and let him/her know of your intentions...

You should then call ops or global lifeline depending on your condition if you are unable to work....

Whether or not your vote is decisive should have no bearing on your vote.If you don't feel as though you should accept a reduced slip then don't.Whatever ops do with you after that is variable so there is no point in trying to think of that angle...anything is possible.

The main issue is whether or not you are fit enough and believe that a reduced slip is warranted...

[twiggs]

Well BP 266 bid books show a change to the Aus based CC LHR trips.
Now they are going up and back via BKK with 38 hrs in LHR.

All the trips are SYD base which must be a bit disappointing for the MEL base.

Some of the TOD's for the sector BKK-LHR are less than 14 hrs, so if one of these was delayed, there would be no 36 hr long range minimum rest.

I wonder if this will have an effect on the BKK base?

[DEFCON4]

That would depend on how long the delay is.
Fatigue is a also a factor.If you feel you have not achieved suitable rest and are unsure that you can safely operate then dont go to work.
Self reporting and culpability in the instance of an accident should be foremost in any crew members mind.
Twiggs-Is that you louise?

[astroboy55]

twiggs,

so the 9/10 AND 31/32 are all LON base now??

That sucks, I know the CC always enjoyed the SIN slips on those trips...

[twiggs]

Yes it seems so.
I'm sure there are just as many crew who will enjoy the time in BKK now though.
Just like the old days!

I've just noticed that there are now some 62 hr slips in LHR!