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View Full Version : Jaguar/Land Rover should they be bailed out?


GROUNDHOG
18th Dec 2008, 20:01
So what is the feeling, Tata have asked for assistance in keeping Jaguar and Land Rover going and it seems are in negotiations with Mr Mandelson to this end. This, on the same day they announce they are to sponsor the Ferrari formula one team. Would such financial support be appropriate?

tinpis
18th Dec 2008, 20:20
Free towing? :hmm:

Crosshair
18th Dec 2008, 20:24
From the Indian government? Fine with me.

SpringHeeledJack
18th Dec 2008, 20:40
Why would either Jaguar or Landrover sponsor an F1 team :confused: or would that be the Tata Group ? I find it strange that after doing due diligence that they should have misjudged the markets so badly now. Apparently there isn't a worldwide market for Defenders (3rd world) or Jags (for all the new rich) ?

Perhaps I'm no business man, but it's somewhat ironic that they are now wanting help from the British taxpayer when they took the company on very favourable terms not so long ago. I imagine that they'll get it from a government wanting to protect jobs and stop a local meltdown.

From the Indian government? Fine with me. :ok:


regards


SHJ

Brewster Buffalo
18th Dec 2008, 21:11
You can't support every firm in difficulty. Vauxhall also have factory near the Jaguar one and they are asking workers to take time off at one third pay. Not surprisingly they have been no takers. How long before Vauxhall want some help??

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2008, 21:27
Despite having spent my career in the vehicle industry (or maybe because?) I say NO.
TATA have adequate resources IMO . . .


The business will recover in time.

frostbite
18th Dec 2008, 21:49
On that basis, why didn't they bung Ford a few quid while they owned it?

Ford have provided a lot of employment in this country and that can't be said for Tata.

Say again s l o w l y
18th Dec 2008, 21:52
Absolutely not. Whilst the last thing I want to see is Land Rover or Jaguar closing down, they are no longer British firms. Their parent company I'm sure has plenty of money, so why should the British tax payer foot the bill?

tinpis
18th Dec 2008, 22:06
so why should the British tax payer foot the bill?

Because they inflicted them on the world? :}

cockney steve
19th Dec 2008, 00:15
Like the rest of the "british" motor industry.....poor detailing, almost as bad engineering, slung together by an indifferent workforce......let tata bring their jigs and tools over here and the current workforce will be like pigs in 5h1t :\

Japanese management has PROVEN that British workers, properly trained, motivated and LED, can better any world producer.

It is said that a UK produced Toyota is prized in Japan,as being better-built than the indigenous product.
We used to say the same about Ford....Cologne cars were usually Ghia -spec...and well built and rust-protected......Dagenham was ok, Ghent cars had shotty paint and rusted like sin.......

Land -Rover -Great when everything works on RR and Disco, Freelander is a guttersnipe in a coture dress, Landrover is a motorised stagecoach....they must have recouped the tooling costs in the last century.....to look at some of their spares-prices,you'd think that they use gold-plated titanium ....great for a farmer in wellies with a fertiliser-sack over his knees to catch the drips.....but that's it!...again! the price :ooh:

Jaguar.....vastly improved, but still have horrendous reliability problems and unfixable gremlins (neighbour got fed-up returning in "limp-home" mode or on a recovery wagon....gearbox/throttle-sensor and a host of other stuff....£2,000 later he got shot of it.

It's Tata's baby, they nurse it or commit infanticide at THEIR expense.

Blacksheep
19th Dec 2008, 08:11
there isn't a worldwide market for Defenders (3rd world) or Jags (for all the new rich) ?The REAL off the roaders who work in deserts and jungles drive Toyota FWDs while the world's nouveau riche aspire only to the Benz. To break that cycle will take a superior product. Which doesn't bode well for Land Rover or Jaguar: they're strictly enthusiast's machines.

Parapunter
19th Dec 2008, 08:17
I've had a quiet couple of weeks. I also got a customer hanging on to £30k of mine. D'yer reckon Mandy'll give me a few quid, tide me over?




Thought not. Never saw anyone from Jaguar knocking on my door asking if I was alright.

dead_pan
19th Dec 2008, 08:38
Absolutely not - TATA have got deep pockets, let them sort them out.

anotherthing
19th Dec 2008, 09:06
Yes, they should - I want the XF Coupe to come into production... it's the nicest looking car Jaguar have done in ages!!

I'm glad they are no longer owned by Ford - Ford are good at what they do - cars for the masses, but Jaguar went downhill under Fords tenure... suppose thats what you get when you use the floorplan of a mondeo to make a 'luxury' car

Effluent Man
19th Dec 2008, 09:12
We all have had to do things we prefer not to do in a changing economy.I sell cars and have gone downmarket because that is where the only demand is. Jag/LR have had all their eggs in the wrong basket. Overall it is probably true that car sales have dropped by 36% but the small economical models are mush less affected.Jag/LR products have been in freefall in the last few months.I have a February Glass' Guide in front of me that says I would have to stump up £33k for a 2 year old top model Range Rover,you can half that ten months on. I very much doubt if they are selling any new ones.I think they should be let go.

SpringHeeledJack
19th Dec 2008, 09:40
.I have a February Glass' Guide in front of me that says I would have to stump up £33k for a 2 year old top model Range Rover,you can half that ten months on. I very much doubt if they are selling any new ones.I think they should be let go.

Well that would explain the very swanky Rangerover that my local estate agent has purchased in the last few weeks. It belied the fact that there is almost no business. Adding an aviation theme, did I see on the news reports last night about Jag/Rov that almost all of Bruntingthorpe(?) was covered in their unsold stock. A very impressive picture, almost like the brick factory with a pile of 500million bricks left uneeded for the time being.

regards


SHJ

dead_pan
19th Dec 2008, 10:00
I think they should be let go


EM - have you changed your mind from last week, or are British carmakers to be treated differently to their counterparts in the 'states?

capewrath
19th Dec 2008, 10:06
Tata responsibility - 100%. Tata took the risk in buying because it appeared that big profits could be made. There was no guarantee.


The situation is rather ironic.

Notwithstanding the quality of the product, which is another issue.

Car industry has taken a downturn because of the credit problem that Brown's lot is responsible for.
Add to that the increase in car tax and forthcoming road tax hikes for gas guzzlers.

Having had a hand in aggravating the problem the gov is now looking at wasting more public money in trying to solve it (or trying to avoid the vote lose that would come with mass redundacies is perhaps a more accurate description).

BTW - gov is getting rid of it's Jags and replacing them with BMW's.

ford cortina
19th Dec 2008, 10:56
So let me get this straight, the Govt should help Jag and Land Rover out, because they are British, But Jag have not been British owned for a long time, Ford had them now the Indians. Land Rover as well was owned by BMW, for a while then sold to Ford. When Rover was dumped by BMW this Govt did not come running to help, I can see no reason why they should now.
Jaguar's were very nice cars once, then they went the way of BL/BAE/BMW/FORD/TATA, and the rest is history.
Same Problem with Land Rover, once the ultimate 4WD, even though the original was a copy of the Willy Jeep, now a Toyota Land Cruiser seems to be the frirst choice of serious off roaders.
There are more serious issuses at stake in the UK than bailing out a Luxury car maker.

oopspff7
19th Dec 2008, 11:40
They want to try selling their cars 50% cheaper IMHO.The cars would fly off the storage compounds,they would have instant cash flow,still make a profit and everyone would be happy.Any chance of it happening.....Never.Lets just go cap in hand to this crock of $hit goverment.

Standard Noise
19th Dec 2008, 11:56
In answer to the thread question - Nope, no, and never.

While it would be sad to see a marque (in LR), which is celebrating it's 60th birthday this year, possibly slide toward oblivion, the Indian parent company bought it as it saw £ signs all the way. Let them bail it out or sell it to the highest bidder. I don't care how much I love their products, I don't want my taxes to be used to prop up the company if it's in difficulty.

Besides, if they reduced their prices a bit, I might be tempted to buy a new one.

SN,
Disco owner

gas path
19th Dec 2008, 12:03
I heard some talking head on the news saying that they didn't want a 'bailout' but a loan and loan guarantees:confused:
If they do fold can I have an XF pleeeaase! coz they beat my 5 series into cocked hat:ok:
.......and they look better!

Brewster Buffalo
19th Dec 2008, 13:03
A key fact is that although Woolies will lose 30,000 jobs they are spread all over the country whilst the Jaquar/Land Rover plants are in a few locations with a number of marginal Labour seats nearby.

G-CPTN
19th Dec 2008, 13:09
GWB is granting the US Auto Companies three months funding (by loans) to plan an orderly recovery or withdrawal (ie bankruptcy).
BBC NEWS | Business | Bush unveils $17.4bn car bail-out (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7791999.stm)

Effluent Man
20th Dec 2008, 09:33
Deadpan, No I havn't,my reasoning is thus: Jaguar/LR are Indian,not British.They produce a product that nobody is likely to want to buy in the near/medium future. Jaguar's entry level car the X type is a ten year old design and all the rest are gas guzzlers.Land Rover make vehicles that nobody in their right mind would buy unless they want to burn money.I believe you refer to my contention that banks should not be allowed to fail, a different argument entirely.If you look at the US bailout there are strings attached and it is Americans bailing out Americans.

Noah Zark.
20th Dec 2008, 11:12
I am not a monied person, being an everyday bloke. But I always promised myself a Jag if ever I made the big time. I loved the E type, particularly the last one with the V12 in it. Also, for family motoring, I would have got an XJ. They have stood the test of time. But time moves on.
A couple of years ago Jag produced a "concept" car. I can't remember its name, but it was a belter! Real iconic looks, two seater, all the gizmo's, etc. Jaguar were implored to make it, and the potential demand was huge. But they declined, Lord knows why.
Now they are turning out the XF. No matter what, I cannot take to it. From the front, it could be a Lexus or even a Seat Altea, both of whom share a similarly shaped grill. From the back, it is crossed with a Merc (rear lights) and a Mondeo, with one or two other bits thrown in.
It doesn't matter how good or bad the car may be, it is mundane and run-of-the-mill. it doesn't stand out. That has probably gone quite some way to sealing Jaguars fate.
Unfortunately, like a lot of other businesses in the U.k., who are wholey home owned, they must now sink or swim on their own merits, unless they receive a rupee-flavoured life belt.

Brewster Buffalo
20th Dec 2008, 13:03
BBC NEWS | UK | Motor industry bailout 'due soon' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7793137.stm)

BBC reporting bailout from Gordon due soon despite what he was saying the other day but then Lord Mandelson runs the govt doesn't he?

Unions saying 845,000 jobs are dependant on the motor industry.

Overdrive
20th Dec 2008, 17:29
Why all this support (both commenced and in the pipeline) for the global car industry? I thought cars were devasting the planet and killing us all? I thought the governments now sanctioning the support wanted us to stop buying cars and take the bus? I thought the sales of 4x4s and gas guzzlers needing stopping particularly urgently by specifically targetted methods of taxation? I thought etc....

Squeegee Longtail
20th Dec 2008, 17:54
I always thought that Jag/LR (luxury brands) were dead the day TATA bought them. The current financial crisis has merely brought that forward a few years.

It's time to say TA TA to Jag/LR.

GROUNDHOG
20th Dec 2008, 18:29
I have owned a number of Jaguars over many years, always loved them, so couldn't wait for the new XF to be launched and was invited by Jaguar to go to the factory to see the first ones being built and discuss my order.

My new Mercedes Benz arrives in April.

Sorry Mr Brown but "Things aint what they used to bel!!"

I wouldn't be putting my money in though I am sure George and his croneys will be doing it for me.

Stockpicker
20th Dec 2008, 21:52
Picked up my X class estate (for which read: Mondeo, to all intents and purposes) from its MOT today - clean, again.

Comfortable, accommodating and - when asked - a fun drive, even if it is a diesel. Looks - well , they do help! :O

What's not to save?

tinpis
21st Dec 2008, 07:23
How the hell did they get the London cab to last?

CR2
22nd Dec 2008, 04:58
Is it true that Jaguar has never ever made a single penny profit in its entire history?

keel beam
22nd Dec 2008, 06:25
Definately NOT

Foreign owned former British companies should not be bailed out.

I am taxed enough for "other's" benefit. I really would like to spend MY money how I want :*

BombayDuck
22nd Dec 2008, 10:26
Tata to inject tens of millions of pounds into JLR (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Tatas_to_inject_millions_of_pounds_into_JLR_Report/articleshow/3874882.cms)

"Tata, the Indian owner of Jaguar Land Rover, has agreed to inject 'tens of millions' of pounds into the British car company to prevent an immediate cash flow crisis, while the government continues to consider the case for a taxpayer- funded bail out," the Financial Times has reported.

denis555
22nd Dec 2008, 11:07
I have owned a number of Jaguars over many years, always loved them, so couldn't wait for the new XF to be launched...

My new Mercedes Benz arrives in April.


Oh dear, if loyal ex-Jag owners are saying that what hope is there.

The XF does look like it should be carrying another badge (Saab?) but I thought its dynamics were enough to save it.

Whereas the old S-Type and X-Type were panned for having lousy dynamics and olde worlde Jaguar styling.

Is there any hope?

Say again s l o w l y
22nd Dec 2008, 14:16
Plenty of hope for the XF. The thing is, is that the car wasn't designed to appeal to the "traditional" Jaguar owner. It needed to appeal to a much wider audience.

I have driven one and it was superb, there were lots of nice touches and the interior was superb if not in the least bit Jaguary. I love Jags, but they were looking a bit old fashioned.

Anyway, heres a bit of news about JLR and TATA. From Pistonheads.

REPORT: TATA TO INJECT MILLIONS INTO JLR

Indian firm could put millions into Jaguar Land Rover in a bid to revive it


Tata Motors, the owner of Jaguar Land Rover, is to pump ‘tens of millions of pounds’ into the struggling carmaker, it has been reported. The Indian firm had asked for help from the British Government to bail out the brands.

A cash injection would give UK ministers more time to decide whether to use public money to help Tata Motors. Business Secretary Lord Mandelson has said that a Government bail-out would be the last resort.

Tata has not denied the report but would not reveal how much money would be put into Jaguar Land Rover.

‘It is our company and we are running a business,’ said Debasis Ray, head of corporate communications for Tata. ‘Discussions with the government, however, are confidential and cannot be revealed. We have to run the company and are doing so to the best of our abilities.’

Despite backing from unions for a bail-out Lord Mandelson has said Tata needs to ‘look at their own resources’ to finance the luxury marques.

birrddog
22nd Dec 2008, 17:43
If Tata can't afford the company they bought, they should put it on the market, at a valuation that reflects the value minus the cost of fixing the company.

If you bought a house that was a fixer-upper, at a fixer-upper price, you couldn't expect to force someone else to buy it at the fixed up price, just because you can't afford or be bothered to fix it up.

Tata knew what risks it had when it bought the company (and if it didn't - tough, that's risks of doing business (and possibly poor due diligence)).

I think Tata, as clever business folk, are just trying to get some cheap/free money whilst the hat is being passed around on the world economy....

Can't fault them for trying, though doesn't mean we should put anything in the hat either!

Side note 1, it is sad to see British businessfolk (gender neutral!) not believe enough in British Brands that they cash out and sell to overseas investors, and to see the companies flounder (further).

Possibly a lack of British Pride?

If the British don't believe in owning and running British Brands, why would the rest of the world (incl. Britain) want to buy their products?

For the record, I'm not against foreign ownership or global economies.

Side note 2, I often chuckle how "more English" some of my Indian friends are (or strive to be) compared to my English friends (incl. education, accent, lifestyle, the whole package)... Perhaps Tata is in a better position to restore Jaguar/Land Rover after all ;)

Say again s l o w l y
22nd Dec 2008, 18:15
There is also the issue of utterly rubbish reporting here. TATA have never asked for a direct handout, but asked for credit to be extended to allow punters to be able to borrow money again to buy cars.

Not a bail out in the sense it seems at first glance.

birrddog
22nd Dec 2008, 18:37
There is also the issue of utterly rubbish reporting here.
This is Jet Blast ;)

This is spin. The point remains the same.

Incentive's for people to buy cars they can not afford or get credit for in order to create artificial demand is the same as bailing out.

What, shall we now have a government sanctioned, created automobile equivalent of the sub-prime mess?

The government('s world wide) should help stimulate (responsible) consumer spending to rebuild the economy.

I don't see how a specific loan or credit facility to Jag/Land Rover is going to help the overall economy, lest the government is going to do same for all UK businesses.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

Say again s l o w l y
22nd Dec 2008, 19:57
One point I missed. TATA didn't directly approach the government. They were part of a joint industry approach between many manufacturers.

Gelande Strasse
22nd Dec 2008, 20:08
I started work for Jaguar in Coventry as a lowly engineering apprentice in 1972. 10 years later with a degree in Mech Eng and a job designing monocoques at Browns Lane, I decided to leave when we heard they were within two weeks of closure. So not an awful lot has changed in the intervening 26 years.
I still know someone who started with me in '72 and is still a design engineer for them (at Whitley). At the age of 53 and with no other experience, I fear for his chances. There again he's only one of many.
Another ex colleague started a company trimming seats (opposite Go Outdoors on part of the old Triumph site). He'll be a casualty too.

Sad days for all involved and I'm just glad I made another career!

GS

ChrisVJ
22nd Dec 2008, 23:39
While genrally I would agree with the "No Bailout" principle there is more than just a simple black and white picture here.

Giving a company gazillions to pay bills etc is rather unhelpful in the long run, or even the medium. The bills keep going and when the account is run up again we are back where we started, with lots full of unsold cars and more bills.
On the other hand it is a little unrealistic to think that car makers should have built their plans on the idea that pretty well all credit will cease tomorrow. Cars are mostly sold on credit and if credit dries up then cars don't get sold. I don't know about the UK but over here the B o Canada has lowered interest considerably and the USA fed even more, however the high street banks have been lowering their rates only about 1/3rd as much and not lending out what they do have. I guess they like collecting the difference. In the meantime consumer business is stalled because even credit worthy people are unable to take advantage of the lowered prices.

It does not seem so stupid to bypass the banks and give easier credit directly to purchasers through the manufacturers. Gets cars off the lots, which is where the action is really needed.

As for producing cars people actually want, well I came up from town the other day and counted it even, SUVs against small sedans, I think the 'wrong cars' argument is more emotional than actual.

In the meantime, if the major manufacturers are allowed to go under, the government will be paying all that Social Insurance for years to come with Zero productivity. Now that is an exciting prospect, much better than actually producing something, even a marginal product.

We have not even touched on the morale problems associated with having major portions of the country on the dole for years. Remember how that was? Keeping the businesses going at almost any price might be worth it.
Not saying it is, just that so many of the redneck reactions I am reading all over the place are just a tiny bit simplistic.

tinpis
23rd Dec 2008, 00:50
If they built this car again I would buy one
(sans Prince Lucas of course)

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Jaguar/66_Jaguar_MKII_BY-06_GW_08.jpg

Effluent Man
23rd Dec 2008, 11:34
The "wrong cars" argument is very factual.Over the last year the car buying profile has changed radically.A typical deal for me used to be a £6k 2/3 year old car sold and a £3k 5/6 year old coming in part ex,then the dead and the dieing coming in on those.This morning I sold two cars.An eight year old 1600cc estate car at £2000 to a man who dumped his Citroen outside my gate and said "give it to the scrap man" And a lady who straight swapped her V reg Merc for a W reg £1995 Punto.I cash bought both the cars I sold from a new car dealer who had them part ex'd on 0% financed deals subsidised heavily by the manufacturer,in this case Renault. He reckons he earned £450 from the 2 deals.