Qantas Link in Crisis again....now its for Captains!

[bandot69]

Prior to the world economic crises, Qantas Link itself was 'in crises' (C.P.). The current recent unrest has reduced the stem of flow and increase stability in the ranks. The management in Sydney have avioded one crises, only now to be slapped in the face with another!

Much dispair in not being able to fill aircraft with F/O's (whilst screwing many of the possible CADETS and TRAINEESHIP applicants) is over, but now it's lack of experience that is causing the headache!!!:ugh:

Many of the next upgradable applicants for a command position, well, lets see.......they left! No one is here....echo...echoo!

The incentive 'bonus' that was implemented...with many conditions...has seen little in stemming the flow of pilots.

In the midst of 6 months it is amazing to see how management can be in such a panic. The South African entrants seem all but forgotten and now it looks like captains are going to be worked increasingly overtime.

Next time you fly Qantaslink...good chance there will be no Captain available! Especially out of Brisbane and Sydney. The company is absolutely struggling to find the appropriate experience and may have to bypass its own rules on 1 year on type...700hours ATPL etc... but the thing that gets around these requirments is the ability of the CP to forgo this in unusual circumstances.


It's a real shame those guys/girls who have recently left did not see the incentives to stay....so many great people stomped on...looks like its all coming back to bite the backside!:mad:

[DASHER 8]

There are still 2 experienced Dash Drivers coming from South Africa to Q-link early 2009, but there are a great deal more that looked at the whole Aus. move and after doing the maths, it is just not worth the move when you work out the real cost of living in Aus and the pathetic sallaries that are on offer, even as a Captain. There will always be one or 2 lured by a safer life, but be warned! You are in for a massive lifestyle reduction moving from SA to Aus.:=

[Fonz121]

Something Ive been wondering for a while is with the direct entry min.s being only 250hrs multi command, how does someone with those hrs get a command eventually? Noone seems to know the answer.

[Icarus53]

Fonz,

What don't you get? As long as you hold an ATPL (which requires 250 command), you can hold a command in a high capacity RPT aircraft. The kicker is that if you have less than 500 multi command, you can't be PIC of a low capacity aircraft (like DH8B for instance). If pilots in that boat end up with a command, it will be interesting seeing how the company manages the restriction, as it will mean that ops may not be able to "downgrade" flights to a 200 for some junior Captains until they rack up the hours.

[bettybd]

Direct entry commands are on the cards :D:D
Q -But are there any takers ??:ooh:

Forget the SA's - they won't come. SA Express has increased the coin. Too good a deal- QLINK will never match.

[hoss]

so does this mean MD has to go flying now?

can still remember him telling us during induction back in early 2002 that our backgrounds and experience would be considered and that we would be upgraded quickly blah blah blah. mind you this was to a room where the lowest time guy was about 5000hrs/1000hrs jet,the course average would have been 10000hrs.

almost six years later on the day i resigned my command upgrade would have been awarded. a few guys had left before the endorsement, others left over the years and now noone from that course is left.

now all i can do is shake my head and occasionally laugh at the current state QL has mismanagend to find itself in.

i find it very entertainng/schadenfreude watching the dashes fly down final on a calm day 'all over the shop' and then do some of the roughest/hardest landings i have ever seen. thankyou QL for allowing us to see what happens when you put someone at the controls who is obviously way out of their depth. fingers crossed nothing bad happens although the aircraft are a solid testament to bombardier.

merry xmas and keep it stable.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So how does the command get awarded in Q/link? Is it by seniority or based on merit and experience? If its seniority there is the problem for the Co.

[KRUSTY 34]

It's seniority Soup', but that doesn't present problems, in fact it is the only equitable way. If you are alluding to the fact that the guys/girls that don't have the mins for command are more senior to some that do, then these people are simply bypassed in favour to the first candidates down the ladder that meet the min requirements.

The problem for QFLink, and REX for that matter, is that most of the F/O's do not have the min quals for command. REX have decided to mitgate this problem by simply cutting services ( that's a well thought out plan!!!). How QFLink deal with a similar situation remains to be seen. As in REX's case, the employing of Cadets and low time trainees has not solved this particular issue.

The continuing deletion of G/A, along with the desertion of the profession by young Aussies will ensure this aspect of the pliot shortage remains with us for years to come. IMHO, the only solution now is twofold. Pay the existing Captains a remuneration that will keep them, and when neccesary, employ direct entry Captains from other operators. In order to attract enough of the right people however, the T&C's on offer would have to be superior to their competitors!

Surveillance Australia were facing the wholesale destruction of their Billion dollar + contract. They stepped up with the right deal. Not only have they secured the future of the company, but their crewing crisis had been eliminated once and for all.

The question for QFLink, REX et'al, is who will blink first?

[Icarus53]

thankyou QL for allowing us to see what happens when you put someone at the controls who is obviously way out of their depth.

You might want to rethink that comment Hoss - not going to cause anything but gross offense. You are suggesting that the company's C&T organisation is happy to allow just any idiot to take a plane out. With the exception of early training flights (or were you perfect your first day?) you have no basis to suggest that any QLink pilot is "way out of their depth".

Nor can you demonstrate that "some of the hardest/roughest landings" weren't at the hands of Captains with 20000 hours plus.:ooh:

[The Truckie]

Coastwatch are no longer giving the bonuses to new guys. So anyone starting with them now will be on alot less than the guys they work with side by side. Not a happy situation as a new guy feeling your not getting what everyone else is.
I would love to be a fly on the wall in these management meetings to hear what they think should be done to solve all their crewing problems. I feel there is alot of buck passing going on.

[KRUSTY 34]

Thank's Truckie. If that's the case then, it just may come back to bite them.

Christ almighty! Is it really that hard to take the long term approach? :rolleyes:

[18-Wheeler]

LOL.
I applied a while back, just to see what reaction there'd be.
The only reply was that I didn't meet the minimum requirements - I didn't have a Dash rating.
Got 10,000+ hours, lots of turbine time, etc though ...... !

[60 & below]

Sorry to hear about that 18 wheeler
I thought you would have been a shoe-in with your experience.
So what is the pay for a Qlink Captain these days?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Krusty
I couldn't agree more. I would love to go work for REX or QL. I have thousands on turbo-prop cammand and at night. The problem is the massive pay cut I have to take to do that and sit in the right hand seat for a couple of years, even when a command does come along its still 10K short of where I am now and thats using the top tier. Not an option for a family man!


As for Coastwatch, I have recently been in touch with them and the deal on offer is as before except that the direct entry command positions have dried up due to the pilot attrition rate having slowed with the increased package. Its a good deal and it has solved their pilot issue for the moment. This REX EBA will define the way forward for the Co, continued pilot woes or problem solved, Its their choice.

Further pressure will only be applied when J* open the office again.

[Fonz121]

Fonz,

What don't you get? As long as you hold an ATPL (which requires 250 command), you can hold a command in a high capacity RPT aircraft. The kicker is that if you have less than 500 multi command, you can't be PIC of a low capacity aircraft (like DH8B for instance). If pilots in that boat end up with a command, it will be interesting seeing how the company manages the restriction, as it will mean that ops may not be able to "downgrade" flights to a 200 for some junior Captains until they rack up the hours.Sorry if I sound a bit ignorant, but am I right in saying that the smaller model Dash's are low capacity and the 300, 400's are high?

[Dragun]

Depends on how many years with company but a year 2 Qlink Dash Capt on 200/300 series is a tad under $85K.

What are coastwatch offering these days?

[Uncle Festor]

Agreed,

If they had the right idea 12 months ago rather than neglecting senior F/O's who had command experience, hours on type and the company history...I probably would have stayed longer

[KRUSTY 34]

Dragun, re: Surveillance Aus:

$100K first year Capt, $60K F/O + CPI per year or 2% whatever is the greater.

The bonus from memory is $100K p/a for Capts and $50K for F/O's, rising to $150K for Capt and $100K for an F/O in the 3rd year! From memory these bonuses were not available to fly-in,fly-out crew.

First year F/o with REX-$42K

First year Capt with REX-$69K

Sort of says it all doesn't it! :p

[TROJAN764]

Fonz

You are right in as much as the 200 does not require its operator to hold a High Capacity AOC whereas the 300 & 400 does. Unless things have changed, its the AOC (and its accompanying CAR 217 organisation) not the aircraft which dictates the pilot experience requirements. That is to say that I don't believe there would be any problem with 'stepping back' to the 200 as long as the aircraft was being operated under a High Capacity AOC.

[Dragun]

First year Capt on $100K? ...and they're not even flying 300 series. That's $16K more than a 1st year Qlink Dash Capt and $31K more than a SAAB capt flying pretty much the same size aircraft! I've always thought a Qlink Dash Capt should be on at least 6 figures and Coastwatch is proving they're worth it.

Unbelievable.

[gav_20022002]

Surveillance has had 4 -300's in their fleet for about a year now, 3 of these brand new off the shelf.

i believe the Pay/Bonus scheme is along the lines of
Capt yr 1: $100,000
Retention: $40,000
Productivity bonus :$10,000

Yr 2 is the same but throwing in CPI into the base salary

Yr 3 the retention bonus goes up to approx $90,000

FO's

Yr 1 Salary: $65,000
Retention : $25,000
Productivity: $6,000

Yr 2 is the same

Yr 3 retention goes up to approx $50,000
Productivity goes up to approx $10,000

I believe these numbers are pretty accurate to with in a couple of $k but dont take it as the holy grail unless someone else confirms it

[woftam]

You guys flying the regional routes in high performance turboprops are worth every cent you get and more.
It is ironic that the "group" pay some of the hardest working pilots the least amount of money. :confused:
When will this mob wake up? :ugh:
Give the guys a decent wage and career progression and all of your crewing problems go away!!!
Is it really that hard to understand by these "managers" ? :(
Their brilliant "policies" are merely supplying the opposition and others with a steady supply of experienced pilots. :mad:

[Stationair8]

Funny how you can flog up and down the East coast in and out of a mix of non-controlled aerodromes and international airports in the Dash-8, but not be good enough to progress onto the B737 or god forbid the B747 for Qantas mainline.
Thats right Eastern are the training airline for Qantas's competitor's.

[Kangaroo Court]

Obviously written by somebody who has never been over FL250 and 250 knots indicated. How about you guys give some of these airline's training departments just a little credit...they do actually learn something new when they go to their next employer.

Not everyone "learned" to fly at Eastern.

[Stationair8]

Humble apologies for expressing an opinion Kangaroo Court.

[Tee Emm]

There are still 2 experienced Dash Drivers coming from South Africa to Q-link early 2009

The fact that a pilot is "experienced" means SFA on the flight deck. Some inexperienced pilots I have flown with were superb operators. Others who had thousands of log books hours were bloody awful pilots.

[WynSock]

The fact that a pilot is "experienced" means SFA on the flight deck.
SFA? You really think so?

[Kangaroo Court]

Yeah, but I'll take an experienced grey beard over a newbie any day and the insurance carriers, the regulator and the majority of the fare paying public happen to agree with me. So I guess despite your youthful exuberance, you're outnumbered Wynsock.

I'm sure mummy and daddy are paying the bills while you play your Playstation at home on your days off. There are too many of these types right now with the culture of "arrogant ignorance" that has been present in the public school system for some years now.

As a result are seeing the same disrespect on flight decks, combined with lower than average IQs, poor work ethic, poor punctuality, poor execution of the most mundane flying tasks, poor dress and the lowest levels of mechanical aptitude we've ever seen. I honestly don't know how some of these people could even start a lawn mower let alone a jet.

Parliament needs to step in and stop all forms of bonding and other forms of identured servitude so that we can get the right experience back into the cockpit at free market rates.

[KRUSTY 34]

ooops!:confused:

Sorry Gav', and everyone else, those figures I quoted for the S/A bonuses were a tad inflated. Gavs figures are correct.

Still, about the right coin though

[newsensation]

A combined seniority list between Sunstate and Eastern would allow Commands to be taken from a bigger pool..... and give the Canberra pilots more options...:ugh:

[Normasars]

Kangaroo Court,

That's what happens when you pay peanuts; the monkey turns up.

Oh, and BTW, I forgot how much harder it is to fly above 250 and faster than 250 IAS. I think it took me an extra sector to get used to it. You must be REALLY clever to fly that high and that fast.

[b55]

To Tee Emm
Being a "superb operator" is only the very beginning to becoming a safe pilot.
Experience does not EQUAL safe, but it does make you inherently safer as you have seen, heard, been through, had different system failures, human factors experiences that a "newbie" hasn't. Each experience is always unique. An engine failure experience you have tomorrow will be different in so many ways than the one you had 10 years ago. But that experience you had 10 years ago will help you to some degree through the next one. Yes, after a certain number of flight hours the number becomes irrelevant and a "bloody awful" pilot stays a "bloody awful" pilot. But experience is the reason for the old saying "....there are no old bold pilots". Give me at least one "old" pilot up front when I'm sitting down the back, please. Qlink, Rex, etc. should be happy to pay for it. Thr "bean" counters are only responsible for the "beans".The Chief Pilots, not standing up for their pilots, will be held morally responsible for the known loss of their airlines experience levels.
(Ever notice when you sit next to a 'newbie", they want to tell you about their one "scary" experience?)

[43Inches]

Experience does not make you inherently safer, it gives you a base of knowledge which can be drawn on to make decisions. A pilot may become safer by utilising correctly their experiences and those of others.

Others may use this knowledge to operate outside of published procedure or push on because they've done it before, so actually increasing risk factors.

I would like to know what changes above FL250 (apart from the obvious oxy requirements), is it the division between Earth and space or the point from where the pilot just watches the 'playstation' fly the aircraft...

[b55]

43inches
"Others may use this knowledge to operate outside of published procedure or push on because they've done it before so actually increasing risk factors'.

Agreed. I should have used the word "SHOULD".This is the group I believe TEE EMM is refering to as being "bloody awful" pilots. Always bad apples in any basket. But his statement that experience means SFA is incorrect.

[Roger Greendeck]

I would suggest that the disparity in pay between SA and QLINK, REX has more to do with the customers willingness/ability to pay than the bean counters per se. If you divide the pilots' pay up between the pax it will always be harder to pay good rates on small capacity aircraft regardess of how hard the job is to actually do.

As the SA contract does not rely on pax revenue to raise funds their financial position is different. It would appear that they have been able to convince their customer (the Federal Government) that if they want a premium service they need to pay a premium rate. Harder to convince people in rural and regional areas who are short of cash that they need to pay 'big bucks' for their ticket when they see adds for cheap flights on jet aircraft.

[Hugh Jarse]

It would have been so easy to head off the crisis they now have bought upon themselves. Previous pilot councils warned the company of this impending problem, but were essentially ignored because the amateurs in Sidchrome House# knew better. Now the chooks have come home to roost.

When I resigned, I was asked by both my Fleet Manager and the MFO what it would take for me to stay. Very simple:

1. Give me my lifestyle back (the reason I stayed for so long). 8 days off with split single days is not lifestyle for a shift worker. 10 days with 2 of those split would have satisfied me.

2. Give everyone a career progression into QF mainline. (That didn't necessarily mean I would use it, but having career prospects means everything to those that would use it). (Currently, career progression for Qantaslink captains is to VB, Cathay, Dragon & JQ via external application).

3. Fair and decent remuneration to match what is getting around, ie Surv. Aust.

The answer I received is now history.

Don't get me wrong. It was a great job with great co-workers and excellent training (some of the best around, IMHO).

Now, I get no more min rest overnights, and this roster I have 16 days off (all multiple days). I've not had less than 11 days off per roster since commencing flying.:8

I have my lifestyle back......:ok:

# A place where shiny tools are found.

Newsensation - that was one of the last things we tried through Pilot Council before I left. You know what the outcome was: You got cross crewing anyway and a "screw the lot of you" attitude from upstairs. Got to keep you separated (and at each other's throats). Well the jig's up, because there's now communication between the 2 Pilot Councils, and (hopefully) an understanding that all the antipathy over the past several years has been surreptitiously driven by Sidchrome House# to keep EBA's competitive.

Looks like it worked.....

[Kangaroo Court]

Bloody good post that one! What a shame it takes somebody like Hugh Jarse to lament on this after the fact; rather than a smart company to see what they were losing before he got tempted to walk.

The stupidity of Qlink in this example is that they did an exit interview, but offered no reason for him to stay before they went through with the meeting.

Me thinks that is bad management!

Time to clean house in the puzzle palace. There's no question about it!

[j3pipercub]

Kangaroo Court,

In reference to your posts about half way up the page. What's with the rant??

j3

[hoss]

Icarus53 no mate I wont retract a fact. It is not offensive to the 'mega low timers' at QL because I'm sure that they would agree. How can I tell who is flying you ask? First of all I usually recognise the voice of the PNF, secondly I have never seen a QL Captain fly so de-stabilised, even the couple of bad ones, it's obvious. As far as the Check and Training department goes, yes they have lowered the standards for the 'new ones', they had to inorder to survive, simple. They may have to go lower yet!

Not being offensive just keeping it real and besides TROJAN764 is proof that '20000 hour Captains dont do bad landings'.

Merry Christmas:)

[ron burgandy]

Not the lunatics running the asylum. We can rant here about bad management till 2030, but it isn't going to change.

The no talent ass clowns running QLink aren't concerned with the survival or improvement of the business, and they never have been. All they are concerned about is that they aren't blamed for all the F#%k ups.

So long as they can say it's not their department's fault, they are not concerned with fixing the problem. The examples of this are consistent and many. The loss of experienced crew is just another in a very long line of exceedingly poor management policies at this airline.

The loss of crew will be explained by MD to his masters as solely due to world events and the acute pilot shortage of 2007/08. No consideration will be given to the way that they have treated their crew for the past 7 years under his tenure.

Could a consistent reduction in real terms pay be the reason for this lack of crew, no.
Could a work place run on bullying and intimedation by an inadequate fleet manager be the reason, no.
Could ever worsening rosters be the reason driven by a pilot wannabe business manager, no.
Could management's steadfast refusal to allow a career path into mainline be the reason, no.
Could their consistent efforts to play each pilot group off against eachother be the reason, no.

In the end the only reason MD will tell his superiors that people left is because pilots want to fly jets and the market was such they could do nothing to stop the flow.

Whereas in fact, the real reason is because people just couldn't see any improvement ever happening while these ass coverers were in power. So anyone with any get up and go, got up and left :ugh:

[Hugh Jarse]

Ron burgandy,

you've summed up the situation to a flamin' tee :ok:

Kangaroo Court,

I wasn't given the common courtesy of an exit interview, even though it is QF Corporate Policy to do so. I thought that as someone who'd given well in excess of 10 years service that would be the least I could expect. Perhaps Kumar gets to read them :} (we can't have the truth filtering through to the EGM):8

They got wind that I was successful at interview and approached me to confirm the fact. In fairness, I gave them every opportunity to do something about it, not just for me but for all the others that were in the interview process (and subsequently have also resigned).

The current mentality in Sidchrome House# appears to be "make people want to leave, instead of wanting to stay". They hold the Pilot Council in contempt and have not once acted in a positive manner towards addressing the current situation.:rolleyes:

The toxic and draconian environment in Qantaslink will not change until Dr. Evil, Mini Me (and Fat Bastard, hiding in the wings, but still around) are replaced with people a modicum of competence.

[bandot69]

Hugh,


it was great working with you and all who left and a real shame when the massive flow was occuring. Exciting for some; new career, better lifestyle and the rest...

People 'only want to fly jets'. Crap..we all know it as well. It comes down to one thing...its money! The end! Pay me equivalent wage as a jet pilot and yes, i would stay!

It sounds like your going well, shame you left mate. You are someone who is passionate and cares about the job and lifestyle. You have taken a lot to your new employer! Well done and thankyou.

I would like to point out though that I have found there are some people on the pilot council who need to relook at their own position and ask, why was I elected to this position!

Remember...you are there for the pilots...not your own personal agenda! Don't get defensive about this, just ask your pilot group what is wanted.:mad:

The silver surfers upstairs and many of the pilot group is sick of the current refusal by our pilot council and union to contribute to anything useful. Lately, all we get is a can't do attitude! Remember why you are there and ask your pilot group..without bullying them...what they want.
Those in the union must recognise who pays them as well!

Yes, we all agree that management can be better, but as a pilot group we should ask ourselves what can we do to improve our lifestyle!

Many missed opportunities have occured...what ever happened to a group seniority list!!! What about helping guys in Canberra out and those in Sydney that want to swap with them!! Isn't this improving our pilot group lifestyle. So much can be done. Look at the opportunities now for new Captains. The training department in QL is extremely professional and is an area of this company that actually looks at how to change operations and actually listens to the pilot group.

Remember, if you are a member on the pilot council, don't let this 'power' go to your head and don't become a dictator or protagonist!! Be there for the pilots, not yourself!:D

[Long John Silver]

If there has been a recent exodus of captains and there is a large proportion of FO's who are not upgradable due to licence/hours requirements are QL taking direct entry captains? From the looks of this thread I would assume so however a brief look at the QL web page seems to suggest otherwise. Any ideas on this? If one were to have command experience on similar types would there be any scope for direct entry commands for the Canberra base for example? Cheers

[RYAN TCAD]

I know of yet another just made 10 year Captain with QL who is finding his way out! Good on him. who could blame him.

Bo!

[newsensation]

Hay LJS, you will have to get in quick the Canberra base closes in FEB 2009...
no need for Direct Entry Commands yet....

[Kangaroo Court]

Hugh,

I'm sorry to hear about the way that ended!! What a way for them to behave after ten years of your own dedication. It's stories like this that really make me concerned for the future of air service to remote and outlying communities.

We can't just worry about shareholders, we really need to be seeing the benefits to our passengers of treating our employees as customers too. If they're happy, they'll stick around and do a good job..which is great for the bottom line.

This disposable numbers game that they have played for years in America is really half the problem with our industry in Australia. The history of putting one group of employees against another does nothing but ruin morale, lower empoyee participation in problem solving, increase absenteeism and result in higher training costs due to lower experience levels and high turnover.

This policy is about to bankrupt one of the regionals in America.

[WynSock]

To get me back, qlink would have to:


apologise for the initial ridiculous measly offers,
$100K, plus cpi increases, plus service, plus super, for Capt,
$50k annual retainer for the next 5 yrs
Back off on the roster whipping, we are shift workers!
Lose a few min rest overnights
Go back to workload pre Dr Evil
Hand back my seniority
Don't be such tight arses handing out the annual leave
:} That is my final offer.


p.s.
Kangaroocaught...So I guess despite your youthful exuberance, you're outnumbered Wynsock. With the greatest respect, wtf? :confused:
I think you have me mistaken for some other fellow.

[Kangaroo Court]

Wynsock,

First of all, sorry for the rant. We just had a fiasco at work with a training situation and I certainly hope that's not the way we are headed as an industry.

Respectfully though, I don't see how anybody should apologise to you when you took the job of your own free will and left the same way. It always made me laugh when during the 89 dispute the guys would come back in from the airlines they'd just left and expect a welcoming parade into G/A, stopping the progression of the guys who were next in line to fly something as small as a Baron.

Let's face it, they gave you good training, (which they must have if you're willing to defend it so well), they also put food on your table for several years and the aircraft were safe.

Their loss is that they were too dumb to see that the experience, training and the knowledge you had gained would be to the benefit of their competitor.

That makes them stupid!

[HappyBandit]

Kangaroo Court

You are starting to piss me off my friend! Granted management could improve, but have been in far far worse managed companies, and as one other ppruner mentioned it is not completely managements fault that this crisis has resulted. The management at Qlink, in my opinion, openly listen to the pilot council, and ok so not everything is passed however the pilot council have done a bloody good job in putting the working lives of pilots at the link first as evidenced by the latest EBA.

Moving forward we need to stop blaming management for past decisions and start thinking (collectively) what needs to be done to get through this crisis. I don't have the answer for this at this point in time, however one suggestion I can immediately think of is to issue a change in the ICUS scheme eg. offer ICUS to FO's from day 1 in order to meet the command requirements sooner. The recruitment of D/E capts is also a good one however I see it difficult for them to be able to recruit enough D/E. Anyway it willl be interesting :O

Finally as for the comment about flying above FL250, all I can really say is I think perhaps the additional cosmic radiation that you are exposed to at these levels have affected your brain!:ugh:

[Jet_A_Knight]

What a great revenue stream!

Maybe the FO's can buy their ICUS!:rolleyes:

[Kangaroo Court]

Happy Bandit

I'm sorry, but managements job is to prevent that from happening in the first place....that's why they bank all that dough and take the credit for millions of passengers flown safely on their behalf by you guys.

If they were doing their job; you wouldn't have had to negotiate anything but a cost of living increase in your EBA, especially when the laws of supply and demand were kicking in and they were losing crew.

Hell, even the Chinese are doing that...and it's a communist nation!!

Incidentally, I'm curious if you paid for your employment at Eastern?

[GUARD]

I don't really think there is enough evidence to suggest that if Eastern increased command salaries to $130 000 that blokes would have stayed anyway.

I left on the day my command was awarded. Not with any grand notion that I had to fly a jet or that the money wasn't enough, just that it was a career objective I had set and I certainly feel satisfied that I have acheived that objective.

In hindsight I think it would probably be an awesome job still belting around in a Dash 8 doing RNAV approaches or NDB approaches at night etc. As Hugh Jarse said there would have to be a management shift though because they did make it rather unpleasant by rounding up anyone who stepped out of line and throwing the book at them wherever possible. People can't work under those conditions. Plus it just took too long to get to a command (5-7 years ), so a lot of good people left and went to fly jets.

What management have to take ownership of is the fact that those people may not have left if it was hard to leave; ie: good money $120 000 for a command and a bit of respect and give and take towards crew. But MD always openly said that pilots will always want to fly jets and if you don't like it you can leave.

So in trying to summarise this mind numbingly long post, I believe on the jet argument alone, they would have lost a handful but if the money was just a bit better with a chance of progression, a lot of extemely capable and experienced pilots would still be around, Hugh Jarse being one of them.

Instead they opted for a cadet type scheme and paying incentives, which probably cost a lot more overall, because they were paying those incentives to blokes who wouldn't have gone anywhere anyway.

GUARD:ok:

[Kangaroo Court]

True, but what is to prevent a cadet from leaving to fly a jet? Especially if they're going to be allowed ICUS time in their log books as F/Os, (when should have been earning real command time the old fashioned way) and looking like DEC prospects somewhere else?

Management not only have the cost burden of training, but none of the benefits of longevity.

[puff]

Kangaroo - other than a fairly extensive bond for 3 or 4 years - nothing !

Main thing that is going to stop them is the fact that no one is is hiring too! (except a trickle at QF)

[newsensation]

I understand J* are about to commence recruitment, that should take out the middle order......:ugh:

[Pimp Daddy]

that should take out the middle order......

What middle order?

The tail are batting now.

[virgindriver]

I know it's been mentioned a thousand times before but....

Really, QF link don't need to offer any more money to their drivers- just guaranteed progression into Mainline.

This way people that want to stay can, or if they desire, move onto bigger things in the SAME group.

Wouldn't this solve most of QF Link's hassles with crew and be crisis averted?

[burger61]

hi all

why don't you ex eastern and sunstate pilots stop whinging about how the company is or was - i never saw any of you put your hand up to be fleet managers or chief pilots, probably never did any more than you had to at work unless you got paid for it (whats in it for me attitude) - i'm not a pilot - i'm ground staff and we get sick and tired of hearing about the poor pilots - i didn't get a sign on bonus for my eba, or a 40 dollar bonus at the end of 2 years if i stay - i work my ar_e off for poor money in the office having to listen to your crap. I have been in the company for 20 yrs and seen changes come and go - structures within senior management come and go - but remember - you guys still have a cushy job, secure job, steady money coming in etc - all i can say is thank god you've gone and went to work somewhere else - it won't belong before you're whinging about virgin or jetstar that your not being treated right or the management pilots don't listen too u - why would they if you just sit and cry all day = god i would hate to be in the cockpit with most of you - especialy on long trips - you forget its the ground staff that get the flick first when times are tough - do you give a stuff about us - no you don't care - as long as the crew meals are huge and hot - remember you've got good equipment to fly, all with apu's - geez you forget the shorts, twatters and bandits

[burger61]

i shud have said 40 thousand dollar bonus - not 40 dollars - but then some of you whinging pilots that 30 dollars more than your worth

[burger61]

i wouldn'y worry too much about the pilot skills - i remember many years ago some of the longer employed pilots had trouble flying when they joined our company - some required extra training at redcliffe etc because they could not get thru - its amazing these are the guys that prob write here and complain - what i hear some of these new f/o's fly well and leave the older ones for dead - true they don't have the life experience but neither did some of the older pilots

i think the regionals have some of the best training captains around and you all know the respect the regional pilots have with jetstar and virgin

[grrowler]

Hey burger, with whinging and b!tching like yours, you could have been a pilot!

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday burger',

I'm assuming your comments are an attempt at a "wind-up". If by chance you are not simply having a bit of fun, then your posts most definitely highlight the complete lack of understanding that non-pilots have of the profession, even after your 20 years in the industry!!

Some years ago a senior management type commented to me that crew meals were an unecessary perk. "I work 14 hours a day and eat my sandwiches at my desk", was his justification in attempting to extract "flexibility" from the pilot group. This is just one example of a divide that appears wider now than ever.

If you are indeed happy working your "ar_s off for poor money..." then you should continue to do so, otherwise may I suggest you invest an imense amount of time and money, get qualified, invest more time and money, get further qualified, accept that it may all be for naught, and if you are lucky join the ranks of the winging misrable mob that keep your aircraft flying safely!

Then, you may just have some idea of what these guys and girls are on about.

Have a nice day ;)

[burger61]

yeh the crew meals were a wind up -i understand that you guys have invested a lot of money getting pilots licences but you have to start somewhere in the pecking order - the regionals are a good place to start - then after time if you are lucky enough to move to a larger airline well and good but is it the link's responsibility to get you the grand old job in qantas - me personally i could not think of a worse place to work than mainline - the regionals have the best people i have worked with - inc pilots, cabin crew and managers. granted, some management you wouldn't trust or have the time to speak too

remember - it was your decision to get a pilots licence - like me my decision to work in an office - but don't forget pilots are not the only people that work for an airline - i was saying your very lucky to to be given extra bonuses above and/or below board - office staff don't see those types of bonuses.
as said above, its the people that make the airline and these people make it a great place to work. Yes we have alot of new pilots coming thru - maybe without a lot of experience but in a few years they will have that (thks to qflink and their great training captains) and they they will be sitting beside you at mainline or the other aussie carriers - porbably talking about the same things we are - hehehehe

anyway, have a great new year and don't work too hard

[galdian]

burger61

"..that work for an airline..."

Reminds me of a conversation with an ATC mate, 'chicken and egg' concept:
- no pilots, no fly, no need mechanics, no need ATC, no need people sitting in office etc,etc.

Pilots special?? no - but no pilots then no airline, lucky you have the office skills to move to....somewhere else.

happy '09 to all!
Cheers

galdian :ok:

[Kangaroo Court]

Burger 61,

With all due respect, my 13 year old son just read your essays and can't believe that anybody that writes with such poor grammar and punctuation could even work in this industry! I really don't think you're in a position to be forming opinions about how pilots fly aircraft.

[burger61]

thanks for your return reply - if all you can come back with is grammar mistakes - hell i can take that on the chin - otherwise, looks like you have nothing constructive to say then or you need your son to help you read (hehehehe) - so why do you bother to reply on this topic

have a great 2009

[burger61]

very true mate - who did come first - but all i was meaning is its not all about pilots - many other areas of the flying business rely on each other to survive - same applies to pilots as well as all office staff - no finance guru's - no money being made no airline. (this is just one group)

have a great 2009 and happy flying

[Hugh Jarse]

If Burger61 is the real "Burger", then he's a good bloke and a straight shooter.

The stuff I wrote is true and not "embellished" in any way. We tried our damn hardest to get the message across to Sidchrome House# on ways retain staff and overcome crewing problems.

Lots of nodding heads, but in the end these suggestions were ignored and sent off to the "round file". That pretty much said it all to me regarding management's commitment to both the company and its staff.:ugh:

If I had stayed I would have received over $50k in retention payments, so, for me it was not just about the money. Qantaslink was no longer "my preferred employer" because of successive (EBA) reductions in lifestyle, no ongoing career path and no common respect for us (all staff) as individuals.

Many others feel the same. The results will be evident in the next few months.

[clearone]

You have to be kidding! I have seen all sorts of people in the Industry including Pilots who can’t even spell and use bad grammar, but that doesn’t change my opinion of their ability.

I question that your 13 year old son can spell and use correct grammar!

Good on you Burger, keep it coming.
:D

[Kangaroo Court]

It's okay for you to question. I happen to like that aspect of being Australian; look what happened in Germany during the 1930's when too many people agreed with one another.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that Burger is a straight shooter and that his attempts to bring balance are being respected by his peers. At the end of the day it's all about being comfortable where you are..and obviously the people at Eastern that left were not.

I find it more than mildly amusing that his views on former aircrew have not garnered more criticism though.

[b55]

There is still a strong belief of people "left on the ground", which still includes airline ground staff, in the age old mythology that pilots are out there EVERY day having a GREAT time soaring among the clouds, laughing and chatting up the airline flight attendants, going to other far away places (even if only Tamworth or Gladstone!), while sipping on great cups of coffee. What a life pilots have!
The reason for this is impression is because the ground staff see us for about 1% of our duty day and what do they see? We come to work laughing and chatting away to one another and when they see us coming back in the door at the end of the day, they see us laughing and chatting away. Pilots have absolutely no reason to complain about anything. We have it all already.
I feel so bad about how good I have it, I should give my 3% pay increase back. How DO YOU contact payroll these days??!

[Kangaroo Court]

Freakin' classic!

[b55]

burger61
Using "finance guru's" as an example of essential airline staff is like fire departments having the need for arsonists. (Ansett, TWA, etc., etc., etc.,
Qantas a close call with GD and Allco last year,)
Try another department.

[b55]

burger61
Just went back to page 3 to read your comments there.
"cushy job"
Suggest you keep an eye on the BOM/radar website this summer. When you see the cells brewing, go ask your OPS Manager for the jumpseat to do the Sydney-Canberra 6 sectors.(or Brisbane - Emerald daily double in the afternoon.) (or Cairns -Weipa or Cairns - Horn daily double in the Wet Season or even try a cyclone ride with the fellows.) Then go and do it again in two days. Then do it again in acouple of days. Do it all summer long. Winter try 20-30Kt. crosswinds all day.
"cushy job" ......is yours. You have no idea what the job is like for an airline pilot. Even though you work for an airline and listen to the bullsh-t doesn't make you understand the job of flying an airliner.

[burger61]

mate - i have been in the jump seat during bad weather/clear weather/aircraft defects on several occasions - i have the greatest respect for the regional pilots as a lot of them are my mates, I know how great they fly and i trust them greatly whether clear skies or bad weather - but remember all your flying is not in bad weather every day - there are many days where you have nice sunny days, sipping coffee, reading the courier, chatting with the lovely young flighties (well not so much with the locked door policy) or the stupid doors on the Q400's - what I am saying is that a lot of the comments re this topic is probably written by people who do not work for the regionals and really don't know what is going on - poss only hear about things second hand.

anyway b55 - if you are a sunnies guy or were - you know who i am - come into my office, sit down and have a cry with me or if not - lets have a beer to discuss or just grab me in the crew room when i there talking with the guys and girls. I do know what a pilots life is like, i've been around them for 20yrs - many of these guys have been the best aviators around and would leave most for dead - miss ya magoo, duck, the keg, grimmers

re my job - no its not cushy all the time - i have to put up with the sick and injured a daily basis - but i do get a good kick out of my work life to know that i help people to get over their injuries and at the same time save our airline '000 of dollars a year in injuries and lost time

have a great 2009 and enjoy your flying

[towerboy]

A person with an opinion deserves to be listened to!

A person with a positive comment is to be commended!

A person that questions "the positive"......I do not understand.

[Q4NVS]

Drumroll...

And now, can we get back to the Captain Crisis at QantasLink?

:sad:

[roger_ramjet]

Yes - the crisis...
Well Sunnies just awarded about 16 commands, which should take them at least 6 months to train and get on line. By then there will still be heaps of FO's able to be upgraded. True, a few captains will leave next year when the retention bonus matures and their super funds get back into the black, but I think things will stabilise in the next few years. I can't see the sort of mining industry fuelled aviation boom happening for a few years to come yet.

p.s. did anyone notice the new ICUS rules in the FAM? FO's can log ICUS from the RHS when acting as PF with any line captain providing they have a command endorsement... Magic - just add water and you have dozens of captains ready to go - crisis solved! :ok:

[grumpy greyhound]

We have been foqared and now we have been hossed and rooted!!!!!
Tidy up those approaches into sideney chaps your being watched. LOOK out for the bikini clad babesholding up the marker boards. To the point,the icus is in the fam and if you fall into that category then start pushing your barrow!GG
ps.
Burg behave yourself your upsetting the pilots..

[Bo777]

The FO still needs a command endorsement to log ICUS. Ask how many FOs have command endorsements in the crewroom? My guess, none.

[chode1984]

Qantaslink operates on a high capacity AOC. So correct me if im wrong but doesn't that mean that for a command all you need is to meet the requirements to hold an ATPL?

[newsensation]

What is Qantaslink other than a name... no one actually works for Qantaslink!

Pilots ground staff etc are employed by Sunstate Airlines, Eastern Australia Airlines (the only companies owned by Qantas) or employed by National Jet Systems who contract to Qantas.

The company likes to pretend it is all one Group!

[chode1984]

ok well replace Qantaslink with Eastern and Sunstate.

[burger61]

hi mate - i hope you had a happy christmas with mum and the kids - you know me - i just like to stir the pot every now and then

have a happy new year and see you in 2009

[aviationboy]

Kangaroo court - what the hell is wrong with you? I've read through all 5 pages in this thread so far and all I see is you and your stupid pointless comments in each one.
The FL250 comment is a joke, either you are incredibly stupid or your head is so far up your own arse you have lost all common sense. You must really enjoy flying a jet.. good for you. Before you go making comments like that why don't you try doing a 90 minute sector in a fully loaded 300 series dash at FL160 on a typical summers afternoon. I'm sure they work a hell of a lot harder than you do.

If I didn't know any better I would say you were a QF 74 s/o who really doesn't work for a living.. but since I don't know that I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Take your arrogant comments elsewhere nobody wants to hear them.

Now Burger, there's a good guy. Good on ya mate :D

[roger_ramjet]

True - not many (if any?) FO's would have a command endorsement at the moment. ICUS does however give management a tool to get FO's 'upgradeable' a lot sooner than just logging FO hours.
Taxi the sim around a bit, start some engines, put out some fires and whamo - shiny new sticker in your logbook! All the real captan training can be done when they actually get in the LHS.
Other airlines in aus have been doing this for years - skippy's in Perth for example.

[Bo777]

Chode
Yeah eastern has a high cap AOC so only ATPL and company requirments are needed. But activating an ATPL is the problem for most of the guys and gals coming through. ATPL req are 1500 TT of which 750 hours have to be either PIC or ICUS; 75 hours instrument (45 inflight); 100 hours night; and the rest whatever, hence the problem.

[overhere]

Well Sunnies just awarded about 16 commands, which should take them at least 6 months to train and get on line.

This being the case will Sunnies need 16 F/O's? There's a lot of guys on active hold for both direct entry & the traineeship....

ATPL req are 1500 TT of which 750 hours have to be either PIC or ICUS; 75 hours instrument (45 inflight); 100 hours night; and the rest whatever, hence the problem.

The requirements are actually 1500TT, 750 in aeroplanes inc 250 PIC (up to 150 ICUS) - there's surely not many FO's in Q Link without 250 command hours?

[Dee]

The problem is not the lack of experienced F/O's in the company, There are enough at the moment, the problem is the experiences F/O's (those who have the requirements) are frozen for 18 months on the Q400 and the company wont release them to gain command, lots of senior F/O's are being leap frogged.... or told sorry not until after 18 months buddy..... and then they leave command spots vacant rather than abolish the freeze.

[Bo777]

So Dee did you know that there was a freeze??
If yes, then whose faults that, why go on the 400 in the first place? If no, once again whose faults that, read the fine print?

[Mr Whippy]

Typical Gen Y attitude that - you knew what you were signing on for, then want to whinge when it doesn't go your way. Is it because you're dirty on trainees for having it even easier that your direct entry run?

Up until recently time to upgrade was 5-7 years and noone complained.

From my own experience I don't believe 18 months fo is sufficient experience for upgrade to command unless you come from a previous airline background.

[pjam]

I chose to forego the extra dollars available on the Q400 and stay with the sustaining fleet on the "very slim" chance that a command might have come up prior to the expiration of the Command Experience Scheme.

It was a gamble with my pay packet and it involved a significantly greater duty time per roster than the 400 FO's were doing back then, but it looks like it payed off in the long run. I'd have been very disappointed if those still "frozen" on the 400 were awarded command positions ahead of me.

There could still be others whom made the same decision I did and are possibly falling just short of the company requirements but will be upgradeable well within the timeframe of the command training that is to be undertaken? They'd probably be pretty disappointed too...

[KRUSTY 34]

Swings and roundabouts pjam. This game can be very fickle and many have paid the price for taking a wrong turn, just as many others have profitted from taking the right one.

2 mates of mine joined Ansett back in the early nineties, (post AFAP ban). Both progressed from the F50 as F/O's onto the A320, again as F/O's. As movement off the Fokker was relatively rapid, commands came up on the turbo-prop fairly quickly, and both were offered left seat positions back on their previous equipment. One chose to take it, the other decided to stay put as he felt an offer of command on the bus' would not be far away. A short time later Ansett disposed of the F50, and the pilots retrained onto other jet equipment. Many of the F50 Captains were junior to those that stayed on the jets as F/O's, but because the commands at Ansett were perpetual, irrespective of type or seniority, the Captains on the now defunct Turbo-props were given priority of commands over F/O's on the jet equipment. The old mate who chose to stay on the A320 spent the rest of his career with Ansett haveing never made command!

I guess the morale to the story is, try to be totally familiar with what the results of a change will be. If it goes your way, great. If it doesn't, at least be comforted by the fact you may have "gambled" and lost!

[Dee]

your missing the point people, why is there a freeze at eastern but not at sunstate, and the Q400 is a sunstate aircraft. Also a few of the frozen F/O's have been in the company for more than 18 months, Also why does the freeze apply to those who went directly onto the Q400. All the comments regarding Gen Y etc what a load of ****, times change move with it also the direct entry F/O's who Im referring to have vast experience, Qlink is not their first job, they did fly before hand and gained valuable experience on T-prop and Jets.

Also managment find it to their advantage when they do and dont enforce so called rules (re: Freeze). Management will run into this problem again in the future when the trainees reach command upgrade time, none will have ATPL then what will they do, to0 much short term quick fix thinking to fix problems even though they are warned by most who can see it coming.

My main point is why recruit externally when the experience is already in the company, freeze or no freeze.... thats the issue (not the you know what you signed up for ####, tell that to a vietnam vet or a WW2 soldier, situations change so be flexible and adapt.

And for Mr Whippy, I never said it effected me, i just saw the problem and have suggested a solution, Im quite happy with my lifestyle roster and not getting flogged. After all the EBA does say "up to 18 months" for the freeze. so does this mean it can be waivered.

Quote : A pilot who elects to bid from a Dash 8 300/200 or 100 series aircraft onto the Dash 8 –
400 will lose the right to undertake a further change of equipment, status or variant for a
period of up to eighteen (18) months, from the date of clearance to the line.

[Kangaroo Court]

I took a command on the most junior aircraft at the earliest possible date. I am sure glad that I did. Others who didn't really lost out on opportunities later on.

[b55]

Looks like things have gone a bit quiet on this topic, so...
back to Mr. burger61's comments that have gone unnoticed and/or unanswered.
(top of page 4)
"I wouldn't worry too much about the pilot skills..." (of new F/O's)

What is this pure genius statement? Easy enough for you to say sitting at your desk, I guess, burger61.
Lets see, it was one of those "cushy, nice days for flying" that we pilots always have according to you, when the new F/O let us float down the runway not able to do any slight experienced pilot things, so as my hands moved across to push the power levers forward and call going around, he chopped the power and we hit as hard as I could remember, all the way back to that Qantas 707 landing that opened just about all the overhead baggage lockers. (I was sitting in economy by the way)
Smart F/O, you bet, smarter than me by a nautical mile.

Lets see, it was one of those "cushy, nice days for flying" that we pilots always have, when after the F/O's touching down we started veering to the edge of the runway, I having a good look at the edging quality of the grass cutting techniques of the the groundsmen.
Smart F/O, you bet, smarter that me by a nautical mile at the very least.

burger61, I would hazzard a guess that most of the pilots on this topic could give you alot more "cushy, nice day" stories about F/O's gaining their on the job experiences AFTER their line training. Line captains ARE training captains, that's one reason we don't put our hands up to do it full time.
But we shouldn't be too worried about their pilot skills.

The other statement I want to look at is ,"I have to put up with the sick and injured (on) a DAILY basis." WOW, I would hate to work there. Which airline has an ER ward on site?!

As you say we do have all those sunny nice days of flying. Boring as batsh-t, as they should be.Cabin altitude of 8,000ft. getting slightly hypoxic. Why am I so tired after an easy 8 hour day of flying duty time?!
What fun dodging vfr pilots afraid to talk to you in CTAF's. I love the bird strikes, they're pretty neat! Pax sick, HEY GREAT a diversion! Throwing drunks off my flight is some of the best fun I have EVER HAD!
The airline coffee is BATSH-T! Think of us buger61 next time you buy your latte at the terminal coffee shop.
The flight attendants don't stay on the flight deck long enough anymore to talk them into anything. Think of us next time you are casually chatting them up in your crewroom as you say you do.
Well, off to the pilot pissup for New Years. Now where is that list of whinges?

[Guptar]

As someone who has 7 years experiance in both camps, I can see both sides. I worked in baggage untill I had 2000 hrs. Flying is more mentally demanding, throwing bags, amongst other things is more physically demanding (great for keeping the weight off - I;m 20kg up on my bag throwing weight.....I should just say fatter).

If I could, I'd still do a couple of shifts each week, its cheaper than a gym membership and actually its quite a challange. Especially if ur leading a crew of 10 on a regional ramp.

By the way, on one of my teams a few years ago, between us, we had 11,000 hrs, 7 ME-CIR's, 4 ATPLS. An old groundie who never flew or even finished school, but had 40 years in the industry taught me more than I could ever hope for. He had no "education", but man he could stick the tail of 400 tons of 747 within a cm of where he wanted it on a puchback.

Different work, different skills, but both have the same strong desire to get the job done. Both depend on each other.

[burger61]

can you email me the next flight you are operating (or are you a 2nd officer and have not been allowed to touch the controls yet) - I have never heard anyone so up themselves - the only question I would like to ask - how do you see over the dash with your head so far up your ar_e...re the injured workers - why don't you go and talk to your managers and see how many staff at your business sustain injuries during the week - inc cabin crew, engineers, catering - again your probably so up yourself you only care about yourself - FIGJAM (I think that is the saying)

All I was saying in my first post - its just not the pilot group who is hard done by - other areas of any airline suffer in different ways that you guys do. Most people working in my airline have great respect for our crew - most are very big supporters of the pilot group and i know the sunnies pilot council do their best for their fellow pilots whether their established crew or the new recruits (the pilot council get support from most ground staff)- i thought it used to call it AIRMANSHIP - do you have any or just like sitting here being a ******

[Kangaroo Court]

Hey Burger,

You blew it mate! He was just trying to give you his side of the story and you went into melt down. You could never have made it as any member of flight or cabin crew with such poor personal control.

You're done!

Mod's he's not even a pilot!

[likethatwhenigotere]

First post, hello everyone. Have been reading for a while. 'Burger' one of your posts mentioned sunny days, smooth skies etc. Even though the wx is clear etc. things aren't always going to run well, good wx days turn bad technical days v. quickly. If you are a true 'friend' of the pilot as you claim then you would understand that.
Whilst I agree you are not wrong, there are the 'coffee sippers' out there, you really do need to use caution in addressing what is perceived 'coffee sipping' and what is a solid state of situational awareness and ability to actiavte a refined management of (hopefully never) multiple problems.
I do agree with the previous post that your self control in this circumstance has been lacking and I am sorry to say 'JUMP SEAT' is one thing but 'CONTROL SEAT' is another.

Just mine. Regards.

[saosilvestre]

Is it true that Qlink is about to introduce Mix Fleet Flying in Q200/300 and Q400 series?
We have wurd about it in Portugal.

[Bo777]

b55
those FOs in qlink according to your experience (comments) and others must be pretty crap!!! I often see trediation overcome an experienced captain when flying with FOs :hmm:. I guess the dash is sort of a nasa space shuttle and only those with twinkle toes and dazzling skills are able to manipulate the controls in a finer fashion to place it down on a 5 cent coin and without detection that the wheels had kissed the ground. :mad:

I thought multicrew meant teamwork not an opportunity for a pissing contest. Those comments you made about FOs mistakes to highlight the level of stress you have to encounter each day is totally unfair. We all, yes, even captains make mistakes.

[captaintunedog777]

6 months as an FO then the left hand seat. How hard can it be.

[gnomie]

I personally have known and worked with burger for near on twenty four years and have found him very supportive of the pilot group, he has a greater understanding of "the industry" including flt. ops. than most of the contributors to this forum.
GG good to read your posts.
Burger and all the boys and girls at Sunnies an their families have a great new year in 09

[b55]

Bo777
The thread and burger61 comments were about F/O's. Just trying to stick to the thread.
I do agree about your captain comments. See my comment on page 2, please.
I make errors just like all the rest.
burger61
The comment about the ER ward was a windup! Thanks for biting. Just a return of service for yours back on page 4 about captains.

This has nothing to do personally, guys, just his opinions, as are mine.
Cheers. Hope 2009 will be as fun as 2008.

[Bo777]

Cpttunedog
6months????:hmm: what have the company requirements changed??? or is this once again just a typical postulated bogus embellished statement to conceal some captains opinions towards FOs gaining quick (quick meaning within 1-2 years) commands???

b55 cheers

[captaintunedog777]

Why doesn't the company promote from FO to Cap with 6 months on type. Then there would be no shortage of cap's. What are the company req'ts for the left hand seat?

[ACMS]

Yeah 6 months in the right seat will give you enough experience to move to the left seat. :=:D

RUBBISH

This BS is only sprouted by young wet behind the ears F/O's that think they know it all.

Most F/O's with only 6 months on type are NOT ready to take command UNLESS they have considerable previous experience on large multi crew A/C. Especially low time new joiners that can't even spell DASH, let alone fly one to Command standard in all wx, with any defects.

This applies to ALL Airlines and not just QLink.

Grow up.

[captaintunedog777]

ACMS. I actually have 5000 plus jet hours. Anyone with at least 1000 hours on a Metro, Conquesto or King Air could easily move into the left hand seat of a Dash 8 - 400 after 6 months.

[splatman]

Anyone with at least 1000 hours on a Metro, Conquesto or King Air could easily move into the left hand seat of a Dash 8 - 400 after 6 months.

Yeah that is what my experience tells me too!!! - BWAAHHAAHHHA - Funny guy :mad:

[rmcdonal]

Commands are going at 12 months not 6.
And please stop commenting on my landings :E

[ACMS]

captaintunedog777............why would a guy like you that has 5000 jet hours want a job as a Dash f/o? no offence to the Dash f/o's meant.:ok:

yes, if that person had 1000 COMMAND hours in the King Air/Metro/Conquest then they should be able to handle the left seat after 6 months.

I wasn't addressing your experience levels, obviously with that kind of hours you most likely would change seats in 6 months ok. Trouble is most guys joining QLink don't have that kind of experience, or am I wrong?

[captaintunedog777]

I'm certainly not after a job as a dash 8 FO. I havn't read all the thread either. I am curious why there is now a shortage of candidates for the left hand seat at q link.

[bettybd]

The Command upgrade candidate is as only as good as the C&T department he is trained by. Set the standard and they shall reach the pole. Unfortunately alot of good C&T went elsewhere, :ok:

[wotthe]

Yeah a few have gone, but a couple of us are still around!

[Master Rod]

Hey saosilvestre we thought of doing it here years ago and even had a trial. The word we found for operating the 400 and the other Dash 8 Types was dangerous. What is your experience with this?

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"I am curious why there is now a shortage of candidates for the left hand seat at q link."

Fundamental Cap'. It's the same reason that REX and every other 2nd level operator has, and will continue to have serious crewing issues. Few, very few, young Australians are learning to fly. And really, who can blame them? Everything the operators do to side-step this problem will ultimately result in failure unless it attracts new blood at the entry level.

And there's no sign of that happening!

[18-Wheeler]

Out of curiosity, do they have a Brisbane base?

[waterfalls123]

Interesting thread, reading it as an outsider. How is Qlink experiencing a qualified pilot shortage when there seems to be an oversupply of qualified pilots in the worldwide market place? Do you have to be Australian in order to fly for Qlink?

[Dragun]

...and Krusty bring it on! All this 'financial crisis' is doing is masking the problem.

Wait and see how bad the shortage gets again in 2 years. I'm personally looking forward to it. :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

I don't know if I'd call it a worldwide oversupply of qualified pilots waterfalls'. The collapse of several low cost/Liesure carries have led to redundancies and furloughs, but how many of these affected pilots are willing (or able) to move downunder to fly a Dash'? A REX management pilot mentioned the other day that if VB were to collapse in 09', all of our (read REX management's) crewing issues would be solved. Now, I'm not saying that VB are going under, but the mindset that "we will always be able to get pilots" has been put to the test in recent times.

Getting pilots is one thing. Getting the right pilots for the Terms and Conditions on offer, now that's something else!

P.S. Just saw your post Dragun. I honestly believe it is that in a nutshell. It's that simple. Ironically, it will probabably be the only thing long term that will convince the operators of what we've been telling them for some time now. Nasty little schemes to suck in, and lock in young impressionable people will only go so far. In fact I think you'll find it will ultimately serve to drive more people away from the profession.

If ever patience was a virture...

[porch monkey]

As a VB pilot Krusty, I can assure you that IF that happened, Rex would be THE LAST place I would be going to work. I'd be better off going back to the old job, better security, better money, more days off. $40 k F/O? Tell em they're dreaming!

[KRUSTY 34]

Agreed porch'.

My point exactly!

[saosilvestre]

Hello

I´m really curious about MFF concept of flying the Q200 and the Q400 as a same airplane.
Presently I´m a BaeATP advance turbo prop captain at SATA AIR AÇORES.
Until March 2010 we will receive 2 Q200 and 4 Q400 next generation. Most part of the pilots is concerned about the concept of flying them as MFF. We have very short and long runways, some of them without precision or non precison APP's, only visual APP. Our pilot directors and Administration are still persuading us of flying these airplanes at the same time.
LOng Time ago Fly be (England) used the MFF concept on the Qseries. Today they only fly the Q400. Our chief pilots told us that Qantaslink is about to introduce this concept. Honestly we don't believe it. We think this is another strategy to persuade us. We Know that thESE two airplanes are complety diferent.

CAN YOU GIVE MORE INFORMATION REGARDING THIS SUBJECT????

THANKS

[Master Rod]

I have a couple of buddies who work for or in some cases used to work for Qantaslink and they confirm that the company is looking at having their pilots fly both the 400 and the older Dash 8 types. Apparently most of the pilot body and all their senior check airmen are against it and I can tell you although they may be the same type rating there are vastly different aircraft to fly and operate. Not a good idea.

[harrowing]

Unfortunately this is being considered, much to our horror.
We believe the when the 400 was sold to Qlink, one of the selling points was the savings that were possible with crews flying both types. At that time, there was one company flying both types with the same crews. Not any more.
Perhaps someone in the chain of command does not want to lose face and that every possible way of achieving flexibility and cost saving has to be investigated.
Ansett's management priority, as I was told at a CRM seminar, was safety, comfort and economy in that order. Let's hope the reverse is not being applied.
There is also a feeling that CASA very much regret not making the 400 a separate endorsement instead of a type variant, however the mould has been set.
Safety aside, any perceived benefits of cross crewing would have to be thwarted by the difficulties in rostering and reserve coverage, assuming that newly rated crew would not be allowed to fly both types unless paired with someone who had so much time on type.:ugh::ugh::ugh:
C&T are going to be flat out for a while so extra sims and line training/checks may not be a high priority for some time. The phrase "jack of all trades and master of none " comes to mind.
Happy new year all.

[beaver_rotate]

hmm sounds like the same problem as another dash operator/airline (*cough* GA operator.... bless me) I know of

[KRUSTY 34]

How the hell can you have a common type endorsement, yet 2 completely different Sims!?

Or are they one and the same. Genuine question?

[Q4NVS]

South African Express Airways operate the Dash 8-315 and Q400 as a common type with CCQ.

Although most in the Pilot Group believe this is not a desireable situation, it has been approved and that is how it works.

There are some restrictions though:

Crews are not allowed to fly both on the same day.
Rosters are built in pairs where crews would fly the one for a few days in a row, then have atleast one day off before flying the other for a few days in a row.
Jumping back and forth on a daily basis is strongly discouraged.


Good Luck!

[harrowing]

Krusty,
You are quite correct.
The sims are quite separate, the aircraft may appear to be similar but are quite different in handling in many respects.
The 200/300 are big small aircraft as opposed to the 400 which is a small big aircraft. I hope that makes sense. You can still fly a 200/300 by feel, whereas the 400 is so much more by the numbers. IMHO of course.
Cheers

[KRUSTY 34]

Thank's harrowing, that's pretty much what I thought.

I hope to Chr!st that some time in the future some student of human/machine interrelationships doesn't write a thesis on how an organisation and the authority that was supposed to be overseeing it, got it so obviously and terribly wrong! :confused:

[woftam]

Please go easy on me guys as I don't know how different/similar the two dash types are. Have never flown either.
As many would know, QF shorthaul (and others) fly both the "Classic" B737 and the NG B737. There are no restrictions. You can fly 4 sectors in a day and until recently that could be any combination of -300, -400, and -800. The -300's are now gone (from mainline).
They are VERY different beasts. For those familiar with B747's it is a bit like "Classic" vs B744 as far as cockpit layout goes. (Except we don't have the benefit of those wonderful F/E's). ;)
What are the big differences between the two Dash types? Are they any more different to the "Classic" vs NG B737 (anyone flown all these types)? BTW, we have 3 separate Sims.
Genuine question.

[ACMS]

The 737-400 classic is basically the same as the NG. Basically the same overhead switches, same centre console, same engine start proceedure, similar QRH checklists and the similar performance ( generally they both climb and descend at 300kts and cruise .745 to .780, the NG goes higher)
Only the glass on the 734 is not as big/good as the NG and the NG carries a few more punters.

So I can see how flying them both at once should be no biggy.

Now as for the Dash 8-300 and 400? From what I've seen they are QUITE a bit different, in performance, cockpit design and engines.

[woftam]

ACMS, you are not serious surely!
Have you flown both types of B737?
The only reason the overhead panel is similar is because of Southwest Airlines wanting a common endorsement with their Classics and NG's. Otherwise it would have been a la B777 overhead.
The analogy I was drawing between "Classic" B747 and B744 was the "Dials" vs "Glass". Apart from the ADI and HSI the "Classic" B737 is "dials".
BTW there is a big difference between the performance of a -300 and an NG.
Oh, and I see you edited your post after I posted this reply ACMS. :hmm:

[annaconda]

Guys, I'd posted on tech log a couple days ago about the same thing and have found the same questions here. Just wondering if there are any problems swapping between types at short notice. My oufit is notorious for quick change decisions and I can envisage say a 400 going u/s and they will transfer the crew to a 300 with the usual comment " are you ready to board yet? "

The 200/300 is a cat B aircraft and the 400 a cat C aircraft. Practically for our outfit this at present means different plateau heights, different circling areas, different minimums, different operating characteristics reference bleeds on/bleeds off takeoffs, different flap settings for takeoffs, different takeoff power settings, standing starts at max weight vs always rolling starts, fadec vs non-fadec. Different speeds on initial/intermediate/final appproach/circling, different configuration change speeds. How do others handle the multitude of differences when fatiqued/tired operations will show up the flaws of operating these different aircraft as the same type?

I'd imagine that with the 737-400/ng mix you'd at least fly the aircraft as cat C at all times with the type changes. The dash 200/300 and 400 mix has the change of category from cat B to Cat C on top of the type differences also. A recipe for a stuff up if I've ever seen one. If common crewing is so great why haven't all the other operators in the world with 100/200/300 and 400 types embraced common crewing with gusto, as they would have the so called "benefits" from CC? Oh yeah, maybe a f..k up waiting to happen.

Thanks for the rant.

[KRUSTY 34]

annaconda, you really hit the nail on the head.

Back in the nineties SAAB had the S340C on the drawing board. It was basically a standard 340 airframe with all the SAAB 2000 systems, engines, performance, flightdeck etc... The aim being of course to have a common type endorsement with the 2000, and a higher level of operational flexibility for operators. Sadly the type was stillborn, and the small number of 2000's remain a completely seperate type endorsement (as they should be). Clever people the Swedes. They identified early on that only a minimal amount of dissimilarity would be acceptable if safety were not to be compromised.

It appears however that commercial expediancy once again may undo all the valuble lessons learnt by those who have gone before! :=

[ACMS]

Nope, didn't read you post until this am, sorry.

Mate, the 737 NG is basically a polished up 300........the performance is better but the basics are the same.........Same HYD sys, Air Con, Elec, QRH is basically the same blah blah blah. Pretty close performance.( both Cat C ) I mean it's not a 777 is it??????

I have flown the classic for over 2000 hrs and I've flown the J/S many times and the Sim on the NG. No biggy, just the way Mr Boeing designed it.:ok:

This fact has been criticised many times by Airbus fans, saying the 737 NG is only a trumped up shiny new 300 anyway !!

And yes the NG is only like a 300/400/500 so Southwest could keep it the same. In fact they modify their EFIS to represent the old 300/400/500 style displays!! A bit much if you ask me. ( and they haven't :( )

I have a few freinds in QF that fly both and they have no problems adjusting to the minor differences.

I have friends in VB that used to fly both as well, they reported no problems.


Now the Dash 8 on the other hand............different Cat, Engines, Flight Deck etc etc etc AND vastly different performance...

[loungefart]

Just digressing to the earlier issue of the expected pilot shortage -
I have just spent time in the US and the flight schools there are experiencing serious difficulties as banks are no longer funding flight training (neither the US or Europe), students have stopped training, or not beginning, and the profession is seen as high risk in terms of job security.
All this together with high cost and slow return of investment are seeing a drying up of the pipeline of new pilots in the US and Europe.
When the upswing comes, the recent pilot shortage will fade into insignificance by comparison to the coming one.
This will affect Oz as well, as the pilot recruiting pool is global.

[saosilvestre]

So, South African Express Airways operate the Dash 8-315 and Q400 as a common type with CCQ.
And what about the flight simulators? Pilots have to make 2 different sims every 6 months or no?

[harvs17]

Loungefart, I know exactly what you mean. I currently work as an instructor in the US. There have been a number of flight schools closing shop and the only ones that are doing any business it seems are the ones with International students from China, Korea, India, Mexico... Not many Americans starting training at the moment and as you said, the ones currently training are having trouble getting the money to finish.

By the way, if you think Qantaslink pays bad, try $15,000 a year for a first year regional FO on a jet in the US!

[KRUSTY 34]

It's called killing the Golden Goose boys and girls :ugh:

[woftam]

annaconda, thanks for the information re Cat B/C etc. difference. Interesting.
Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[DeafStar]

Wasn't there a command experience scheme implemented by QFlink management? Seems the door was well and truely closed after the horse had bolted. If the scheme had worked then they wouldnt have this problem. Pity the bonus offered wasnt enough. Pity on Qflink management. I bet PL and MD wish they had offered more. This shortage of Captains will criple any growth the airline might have enjoyed. With so new aircraft coming I cant see how they are going to fix this mess without a massive war with the unions over seniority. Should be fun to watch.

[ACMS]

yawn........................


Sorry..............been a bit busy today.

I'm sure you handled the differences in the 800 to 400 otherwise you'd not be here to tell me so, in such strong terms.

Yes, the 74 classic is different to the 400, I know I've flown it.

Oh and my original post was edited about 2 mins after posting last night because I re-read your post and realised I had mis read what you said about the classic 747 and the F/E's. yes I agree with you in that one.

So, settle down big fella and don't stress.

I still maintain the Dash 8 200/300 is quite a bit different to the 400 and shouldn't be the same endo. ( But I'm only going on what friends that fly them say and the fact I have jump seated on the Dash. )

Chill bro, enjoy the 800, it looks a nice machine and I hear most guys enjoy it ( apart from mastering the flare )

[wotthe]

Bring on ccq with gusto I say. Melbourne crews will trial ccq once they're up and running on the 400. I can hardly wait for the first of potentially many screw ups which will test management arrogance.
Bets are on to see how long it takes to relinquish the concept!

[KRUSTY 34]

Hopefully wotthe the opportunity for scew-ups won't eventuate :uhoh:. But as we all know, management are usually blind to the bleeding obvious when it comes to money or saving face!

As far as a war with the unions go DeafStar, I don't think it will come to that. Seniority only applies so long as there are "upgradeable" F/O's in the system. Once those people have been used up (pretty soon judging by the way things are going), then the only option left is schedule reduction or DEC's. The AFAP will not oppose DEC's under those circumstances, but there is a fundamental problem to this process under the existing T&C's!

Obviousy to attract the "right" people, things will have to change in that area. Win, win for pilots.

[roger_ramjet]

Krusty - I definitely agree. The recent flood of "trainees" will create a huge chunk of the seniority list that are unable to get a command for years to come. Even this ICUS thing won't make a substantial difference as it only applies when the FO is PF, meaning you get to log 3/4 of the hours instead of 1/2 in aeronautical experince.
If the average trainee came in with say 500 TT and flew 600hrs/year it would still take 2.5 years just to get an ATPL and 4 years to meet the company requirements of 2000 aeronautical experience.

[KRUSTY 34]

I guess the question is, how far are QFLink, REX, et'al prepared to go in reducing the schedule as the pool of eligible captains dry up? If they wait for the Trainees/Cadets to bear fruit in this area, it may be a significantly smaller regional airline scene to what we have today. Now that's progress!

As well as that, a bottom heavy pilot list will inevitably lead to redundancies amongst the junior pilots. That will not only delay the experience requirements for these people, but will only serve to drive more young Aussies from the profession.

You can only get screwed over for so long before reality finally sinks in!

[newsensation]

the townsville refuler is convinced that the new CEO at Q is not a fan of the current qlink management....:oh:

[hoss]

join the club joyce along with 95% of qantaslinks employees.

the events of the last two years were predictable.

[climingflightlevels]

So could you assume that the next group to commence a groundschool whenever that may be will already have atpl requirements or an atpl? Would these people then jump trainees/cadets/others that have higher seniority to take command spots once eligable?

[Deano777]

climbingflightlevels

I assume if they are eligible before you then yes. If they need captains and they have the requirements then I guess they could be at the bottom of the seniority and still get the command. However, if you are ready at the same time then it may be different?

[likethatwhenigotere]

As we all know, unfortunately as the system of seniority is, it is attached to the circumstance of protecting those who have a less than desiable performance history but at the same time provides a safeguard to those who have the aptitude etc but may find themselves falling foul of management.
As with the few organizations I have been involved, I have witnessed the seniority system be very protecting of some that have not had a performance record reflecting a deserving upgrade, but okay an attempt is awarded.
This is the thing that is often forgotten though and needs to be remembered, as I am quite sure has been discussed on this site previously, that it should NOT be automatic and there is still a very real and required performance associated. Never overlooking the experience/qual. requirements of course.
Is there an adequate alternative or just better implimentation/management?

As the post is about the command crewing requirements of the organization, hopefully those who may be overtaken realize the reasons, if they are legitimate, and can adapt to the situation. It seems these situations do keep re-occuring though and unfortunately the only way some managers know is reactionary and with no apparent planning. Appears to be the case from reading the majority of your posts here.

[Icarus53]

Would these people then jump trainees/cadets/others that have higher seniority to take command spots once eligable?

It's already happened. The last round of commands jumped a fair number of cadets/trainees/others who don't meet requirements. you still have to meet company mins though - 700 hours on company aircraft, so you're not going to get an upgrade straight away just because all the other FOs are still short on total time.

[Bo777]

Likethat....
No command upgrade in Qlink is "AUTOMATIC". One day you turn up to work and presto your wearing four golden bars, I wish it was that easy unfortunately not so. All successful bids have to go through training and a check that meets certain company standards. So I'm not to sure how you've come to the conclusion that senority is just a safeguard for sub-standard pilots to sneak through the cracks to become captains. Qlink incorporates a very comprehensive cyclic program and line checks that attempt to consolidate standards and reveal any shortcomings in procedures and knowledge. The only reasons why some FOs maybe skipped for upgrades are they're "Frozen" on the 400 or don't meet the companies or CASA requirements.
Just some friendly advice I found your post totally incoherent at times and difficult to make sense. Maybe in future you should proof-read your posts before you click the submit button.

[newsensation]

Likethat... you sound bitter...

I have found that the seniority system works very well, if given that every pilot in the system is above or at the company standard, that is, they pass their cyclic's/checks and therefore meet the company standard, the only means for promotion is Years of Service i.e. Seniority. In saying that pilots must meet CASA and Company requirements for promotion.
Qantaslink, Sunstate and Eastern have hired pilots with minimal experience and are now paying the price for not ensuring the retention of their experienced pilots so are faced with having to bypass less experienced pilots in favour of newer employees (lower in seniority) for command upgrade. To add to this, they, Qantaslink, have two seniority lists, so a pilot who meets the company minimum requirements who is on the Sunstate seniority list is not eligible for upgrade in the Eastern pilot group. That is a problem for the relative pilot councils and the company to sort out.:ugh:

[likethatwhenigotere]

Thank you for your replies to my post. Sorry one of you found it wasn't easily read, will try and adjust. Certainly not bitter, just observations from my experience (in some circumstances), other times couldn't be happier with seniority, and it's the system we have. Would ask you though, if you have never discussed the capacity of isolated individuals when considering upcoming commands (based on seniority) in your organization/s? Did not mean to offend with the 'automatic' comment either, again an observation of a sometimes verbalized attitude ('it's my turn', again only of individuals though).
Careful of your target (my post), I understand you may be closely involved with Sunstate, I am not, fair enough. The T&C organization and procedures you have described sound very thorough, that's excellent.

In this case was really responding I suppose to the post of the one of the previous forum contributors on dct entry cmds in the absence of suitable, for whatever reason, candidates. Sounded to me a bit as described above and was just giving my perspective.

Obviously there are management issues of crewing here.
Again thanks for your replies, you guys attack quick though (must be the anonymity), I'll ease in gently!
regards :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Mate, it's as simple as this....

It is no more than the Opportunity to qualify. Simple, fair and without predudice or subjection.

You still have to pass the checks!

[Tassie Devil]

Seniority cant GIVE you a command !

[surf808]

as far as i know its pretty universal to be awarded upgrade only when you meet the req's....the first company i joined i was fairly low time and a lot of guys passed me on the upgrade....but when it was my turn for upgrade, you get your seniority back above they guys that passed you...
also, most companies out there are aware of the pilots that can make the cut when its their turn for upgrade....just b/c you have the hours does not mean you are QUALIFIED....far from it....i knew a handful of guys that had the time to upgrade, but they had been on the radar of the training dept and they were put through the paces pretty hard....if they got through that they were golden, but most didn't and they had to sit right seat for 6 mo. before they could try again....they got 3 attempts to pass upgrade, after that you had to look for a new job.....
i agree with most on here....link will have an eye opening moment when they realize a lot of the new guys are nowhere near ready to command....even though it says so in their log book....if you can pass all the checks and be knowledgeable in all areas of your operation, then the upgrade should be yours for the taking.....my .02....

[Dragun]

Good post. Thoroughly agree!

[Hugh Jarse]

Just to clarify a few things:

A previous Eastern Pilot Council warned the incompetents of an impending crewing crisis several years ago. In its typical arrogant manner management dismissed the PC's concerns as unfounded.

Krusty wrote that with seniority, you merely get an opportunity to qualify. Correct (as others in the QLink system have confirmed). If you don't make the grade you won't get through.

When I was on the Pilot Council, we almost came to an agreement that DEC's could be employed to alleviate the crisis. The protections were going to be that anybody "bypassed" due to lack of experience would be: 1. Given bypass pay from date of qualifying (experience-wise) for command, and: 2. Guaranteed a command upgrade within 6 months of that date. Either way, the "bypassee" would not be financially disadvantaged, and his/her career expectations would be met in a reasonable time frame. A win-win for everyone.

That one never got off the ground with Dr. Evil :=

This, along with the proposed combined Sunstate/Eastern seniority list was dropped by the incompetents in Sidchrome House* as yet another "Can't Do" by Dr. Evil and his thick-headed mate Mini Me. Now the Canberra Base has been closed and a lot of great people's lives have been thrown into turmoil.

Just digressing for a minute: Special note to QF senior management: "Number 42" has screwed up both the Adelaide and Canberra Bases now, as well as ignoring several approaches from his staff regarding the crewing crisis. This has been at how much cost to the shareholders? Surely, you must be wanting his head on a stick in these times of declining profits? Or will you simply do the regular QANTAS sheltered workshop routine and promote him sideways, like so many incompetents before him?

Probably the latter...:yuk:

"Number 42" should be sacked. But I bet he won't be :ugh:

Meanwhile, the lack of operational experience (which was forecast several years ago) is now biting Qantaslink on the arse in the safety department.

Newsensation, with your inside knowledge, can you confirm the rumour of an unprecedented number of stick shaker events in the last 6 months - both on sustaining fleet and the Q400? So significant that it has required a change in Geneva crewing rules to prevent inexperienced captains flying with inexperienced FO's? In my 12 years on the Dash we never had a single stick shaker event company-wide. "Horse" and MB could confirm that from a FOQA perspective.

What was a great company has been compromised by a handful of dickheads, merely to satisfy their greedy grab of KPI's. :yuk:

*A place where you can find lots of shiny tools

[Stationair8]

Lots of schedule changes for the Eastern crews over the next few months, including a number of ports getting reduced flights and some loing overnight services. Information from an agent who is a bit p#ssed off with Kumar

Just a question Hugh Jarse, wtf do Eastern fly a 5 mile wherever they go?

Can't the guys fly a normal downwind, base and then a final or is the big Dash Bus to fast for that.

[Hugh Jarse]

Stationair8,

If you mean a 5 mile final, that's purely for efficiency (as most other commercial operators also do into CTAFs). It's not anything sneaky or underhanded.:)

You'll find that most Eastern (and other airline operators) are pretty flexible with existing traffic in CTAFs, and will fit into the flow when doing 5 mile finals.

It's all about airmanship.

[Stationair8]

No have been watching them track for a 5 mile final at location X, and by my humble calculations they are flying a lot of extra track miles compared to flying a normal circuit.

[Hugh Jarse]

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from, Stationair8. A 5 mile final is far safer than a full circuit (less manoeuvring) especially in poor Wx, regardless of your category of operation.

In my experience (NSW ops), a 5 mile final on the network always used up less track miles than a full circuit (under favourable prevailing conditions).

Can you be more specific, please?

[Under Dog]

Stationair8
Not sure where your coming from mate but I go into a lot of ports that Qlink go into and I have never seen them go the long way around for a 5 mile final.


The Dog

[Stationair8]

Just a couple of cases lately where they flew a 5 mile final in Cavok conditions, but didn't give a thought about anyone else in the circuit or other traffic.

At the particular loction we followed them out of CTA on a step descent, and they requested to leave CTA and track for the 5 mile final, whereas we assumed a join on a mid-downwind and a normal circuit would be less time consuming for all concerned. Consequently on when we were mid downwind they were turning onto the 5 mile final and so we get pleasure of flying a very extended circuit.

[THE ORACLE]

Stationair 8,

Regional turboprop aircraft that are required to conform to a standard circuit generally approach the circuit at 240/250 KIAS and decelerate to 180/160 KIAS by late downwind/base.

Accordingly, these aircraft need to fly a higher circuit (1500 AGL) and a wider circuit in order to fit around most other aircraft in the circuit.

Regional turboprops that can co-operate with other traffic and track to join a 5 mile final and self separate from the slower piston aircraft conforming to the circuit traffic pattern, can generally remove themselves quite quickly from the traffic environment and thereby reduce the associated operational 'threat' for all concerned.

.

[Friction Nut]

Stationair. I am going to make an assumption that your talking about Dubbo... please correct me if i'm wrong. And I apologise if I am. But tracking for a 5 mile final from anywhere along that sector really isnt going to add much to the time. Perhaps a minute at most... If you were on a step descent behind the dash, that means you must have been reasonably close to them to warrant ATC separation, yet you decided that you could try and cut in front by flying 3 legs of the circuit. I dont think so!!

Frankly, good airmanship, I would have thought would have been to follow them around. Particularly in cavok conditions when it is just easier, and therefore safer to do so. Would have been easier for yourself too.

Just like Oracle said, doing so, quickly removes oneself from any circuit traffic and possible issues associated.

F.Nut

[DeafStar]

Thread drifting.............
So QFlink is reducing flights? Possibly management have been saved by the credit crunch again.

[vigi-one]

Hi hugh

Hope all is well in your new environment. Yes its true about the stick shakers. memos on geneva when signing on by MFO and another by standards MGR, also a personal letter to all capts in lockers from MFO.

Also true they have blocked junior cpts flying with junior FO's (less than 150 hrs on type). This will be hard top achieve as time in company for new commands around 12 mth mark. Makes a mockery of the term "Captain".

They have also placed a 500hr type min on Lord Howe Captains, but no extra pay.

What happened to the overseas DE Capts?

[bettybd]

The stick shaker is the death rattles. Where I am empoyed now if it goes off whilst you are in a sim check, all over fella. What is the PNF doing !!
Where is the speed callouts, and why are you approaching coffin corner any way:= serious deficiencies in standards and abilities here.
I agree to be a captain in a high capacity RPT operation, one must meet the standard, may the QLINK should the review where the bar lies. It has certainally dropped since my departure.
Jarse - I remember your great sun visor NO F:oh:T CHI:oh:KS :D:D
loved it especially when the bus and punters turned up !!

[dizzylizzy]

How are you all feeling going to Mt Isa now?

[hoss]

word around the campfire is the 'visa 457s' are in the country!

and this is old news (couple of weeks).

[SIDS N STARS]

Following the thread..i'm pressuming we're talking about the DHC-8 side of Qantaslink??

Whats the story with the Q/Link 717s? Is that still NJS or have they moved some of the jet operation over to Sunstate/Easterns as per their EBA??

Can someone who joins Sunnies or Eastern get on the jet??

[Captain Stoobing]

Jet progression...........

One can only fly a jet if employed by EAA or SSQ if you resign and go elsewhere.

EAA and SSQ are and always will be Turboprop operators.

[BackdoorBandit]

Yes

Yes, and No.

Definitely not, there is no possible way that a turbo prop driver could ever manage a jet!

[captaintunedog777]

Stationair8

"Just a question Hugh Jarse, wtf do Eastern fly a 5 mile wherever they go?"
Is this clown for real??? LMFAO

[bythenumbers]

from b55
burger61
Just went back to page 3 to read your comments there.
"cushy job"
Suggest you keep an eye on the BOM/radar website this summer. When you see the cells brewing, go ask your OPS Manager for the jumpseat to do the Sydney-Canberra 6 sectors.(or Brisbane - Emerald daily double in the afternoon.) (or Cairns -Weipa or Cairns - Horn daily double in the Wet Season or even try a cyclone ride with the fellows.) Then go and do it again in two days. Then do it again in acouple of days. Do it all summer long. Winter try 20-30Kt. crosswinds all day.
"cushy job" ......is yours. You have no idea what the job is like for an airline pilot. Even though you work for an airline and listen to the bullsh-t doesn't make you understand the job of flying an airliner.


Australia is an awesome place to fly and an even better place to live; the weather is not that bad here, try flying in europe or the states; seriously... anyone that says airline flying is not cushy is kidding themselves and further more just making excuses for their "cushy" lifestyle.
Try going to work with a bricklayer for a week and see how you pull up, no meal trays! No pay for roster changes. And dont come back with some BS response that the guy who is a bricklayer could have chosen to be a pilot. Some people just aren't cut out for certain things.

If you have ever slugged through GA then you have some idea of working long and hard; maybe you even did a bit of back breaking lifting from time to time; but if your complaining about airline flying then Im afraid you've forgotten where you came from.

This attitude displayed earlier (by some) about airlines not functioning without pilots. FFS you can go up the tree even more. Yes airlines need pilots, then engineers fix what we broke blah blah blah. Pilots need engineers to design aircraft, to build aircraft. Aircraft need materials that come out of mines, mines need miners who work for companies that need to be managed by accountants that need to be audited etc... In 40 years there will most likely still be airlines but will there still be pilots?

Just because we fly the aircraft doesn't mean that we're the be all and end all. When was the last time you washed the windshield of the 737/A320/Dash8/Ejet/Saab?

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Nothing beats flying a Dash on a nice clear winters morining out in a rural setting. For all the bad points, it's still a really good job. :ok:

[gas-chamber]

Flying any modern airplane is easy. Crosswinds and thunderstorms should be considered all in a day's work for any competent pilot. Stuff that should not even raise a sweat - if it does, consider a career change. Accounting, perhaps?
The hard part of a modern pilot's life is all the latter-day bolt-on bullsh!t. Getting a bloody ASIC in the first place but STILL having to strip almost butt-naked for the security nazis, being handed reams of useless paperwork to digest and sign your house away as if it will make aviation safer to do so. Briefing your co-workers on everything from minimum coffee temperature to max pushback speed. Mandatory courses every year in how to kill terrorists with your bare hands; and on and on. All designed to take the fun out of what used to be the best job in the world. Despite all, still marginally better than actually working for a living.

[b55]

bythenumbers,
Burger61 used the words "cushy job" for an airline pilot.
I disagree with the use of the word "cushy".
The Oxford Dictionary defines cushy as "EASY and UNDEMANDING".

I have worked on an industrial factory floor and as an airline pilot; both very different in the skills needed and both definitely NOT cushy.
Just because you like your job doesn't make it intrinsically cushy. Yes, I have flown in the northern hemisphere for years; frontal CB's running in lines hundreds of miles long, blizzards for days, severe icing, severe CAT, traffic all over you it makes you claustrophobic, fog; yes, I have flown years of GA flying as well, inflight engine shutdowns and even a belly landing in a light twin when the worm drive gear got jammed totally;all part of the routine of the job. I liked the challenge of it. On the good, unchallenging days, very ROUTINE but certainly NOT CUSHY. Yes, as a general statement, flying in Australia has been the easiest I have had. And yes, I enjoy flying so much it is not only my occupation, but it is my passionate, enjoyable past time as well. The rest of your rambling comments I really couldn't follow your line of thought.
gas-chamber,
I would hope the word "ROUTINE" is more descriptive of your opinion, not "cushy". Airline flying is designed to be routine. The only similarity between being an airline pilot and burger61's desk job is that we both sit to do most of the day's work. Sitting does not equate to being cushy. Your aggravation over the "recent" bolt on bullsh-t seems alittle extreme.Calmly walk through it all, and it takes on its right position of being "small beans" in the overall day's work. It certainly isn't the "hard part" of my day, as it is of yours. I can't help but get the feeling that you have the 1,000 hour pilot syndrome; all the answers now but no real flying experiences yet to base yourself on. Good luck on the rest of you flying days, may they all be routine

[Falling Leaf]

This is starting to resemble the JetStar NZ forum, hijacked in favour of a pissing competition between flying in Europe v Australia.

Boring.:=

[SIDS N STARS]

I had a line in the water, just south of Darwin a few days ago, had the trusty scanner tuned into either BN CEN or DN DEP (flipping between the two, can't remember which freq. i was on @ the time) and an outbound 717 (don't remember exact callsign) reported:

NXA : "NXA maintaining 6000""

CEN : "NXA short delay at 6000 due company traffic"

Looked up to see the outbound 717 heading south and an inbound QF mainline 737/767?? pass each other. Shortly thereafter :

CEN : "QANTAS 123 descent 5000"

CEN : "NXA climb FL330"

I'm presuming they were traffic for each other, which asks the ??, is the QFLink jet operation part of mainline domestic and not regional services like the Q400's ??

That would make sense to me. I would hardly call YPDN-YPPH a regional service.

[Spinnerhead]

At that Alt it would have been DN Dep. You are now presuming that a RAAF controller would know the difference between QF Mainline, QFLink, and National Jet (flying QF aircraft with QFLink colours, and crew in Nat Jet uniforms).

[Pimp Daddy]

I'm presuming they were traffic for each other, which asks the ??, is the QFLink jet operation part of mainline domestic and not regional services like the Q400's ??

"company traffic" = aircraft with the same livery as yours - least that's the way I've always understood it.

[Capt Claret]

Almost the same livery, QANTAS v QANTASLINK, same airline designator in the filed flight number, QF.

[b55]

Now with the SAME livery and the SAME uniforms(pilots and flight attendants) and the SAME security ID cards comimg (rumour), the SAME fu*kedup type of management (NOT a rumour), ALL QF INTRA-STATE flights will go to Qantaslink in the next few years with regional jets (rumour). Bne-Isa, Bne-Tsv, Bne-Cns, etc. What else is there elsewhere intra-state? QF domestic will ONLY be City Flyer. Cost reductions continue...(few years =?)

[Mista Uzi]

Hope there is enough money left in the kitty for the retention bonus.

Understand staff are being laid off to finance this.

If the cuts continue, I would be worried as a junior Capt.

Believe one base is running around 15 Captains for just 1 Dash 8. Rumour has it they are being rostered about 3 days work a month. Now that sounds like efficiency - but good work if you can get it. Where do I apply?

Look out MIA / MML - crosshairs are on you now

Still, sure the books are being made to look good, EOFY now so all managers will be sitting back awaiting their bonus and thinking how good the company is being managed.

[cubanflyer]

ALL QF INTRA-STATE flights will go to Qantaslink in the next few years with regional jets (rumour). Bne-Isa, Bne-Tsv, Bne-Cns, etc.

Heard the same rumour but it doesn't stop there. These jets are going to be based in brisbane, not sydney. Apparently a brisbane basing on the regional jet is quite attractive to some of the senior captains from down south. Some are hoping the 2 senioirity lists (eastern/sunnies) can be combined soon so that brissy based jet commands can be bid for. :eek: Only a rumour, and hoping it stays only a rumour...:=

[Bo777]

b55, Cubanflyer and Mista uzi (aka the 3 stooges)
:ugh::ugh::ugh:... you idiots.

[clinty83]

G'day all,

Does anyone know what the go is with the Qlink commercial cadet program returning in 2010. Tossing up between staying in YBBN and doing ATPL's for a shot at the big game or packing up shop and heading west to build hrs??

[Martin VanNostrum]

Do your ATPL subjects as soon as possible. Everything depends on getting them out of the way. Good luck.

[Di_Vosh]

Get your ATPL subjects out of the way, regardless of any rumours you may have heard.

Being at the right place at the right time with the right qualifications is important.

DIVOSH!

[neville_nobody]

Try going to work with a bricklayer for a week and see how you pull up, no meal trays! No pay for roster changes.

No working weekends, no getting up at 0330, every public holiday xmas, NYE OFF. And properly off not 'oh if you're contacted you're going to work.' A billion and one tax deductions, knock off work at 1600 every day. You also won't end up deaf, and with a shortened life span either.

[maccaj73]

You might find some A320/A330 company traffic soon!

[clinty83]

doing the ATPL's ASAP was my plan regardless. but no one has heard from anyone on the inside that it'll kick off again next year??

neville_nobody sounds as though your on the inside. I'd kill to be in qlink stuff xmas stuff nye if im in the air who cares what day it is. just want a chance to operate those machines:eek:

my application is in the sysytem and have all but 5 ATPL's to do.:ok:

[training wheels]

my application is in the sysytem and have all but 5 ATPL's to do.:ok:

clinty83 are you referring to the traineeship? The link is still there on the Qantas Recruitment website but after clicking it, you get the message "Job not currently open." So how did you send in your application? :confused:

[bubble.head]

Friend from link speculates that there might be another course for new entry by the end of the year. However. as they are not as desperate as previously, you would most probably require much experience to be considered.

[Bo777]

Most probably be hiring DEs on hold towards the end of this year or beginning of next. I wouldn't count on the traineeship being opened in the foreseeable future. The traineeship was only introduced when the majors were hiring like crazy.
Get your ATPLs then some experience.

[training wheels]

Well, perhaps Qlink is expecting the majors to start hiring soon as well? They may as well get ready for the exodus if it does happen, because their F/O's would have built sh!tloads of multi-time in the last 18 months after GFC kicked in. They'd be hoovered up by the majors in no time.

[bubble.head]

I believe it would be very interesting early next year. Given the major players are rumour to start hiring again, and a number of young captains have their application in there system. Also speculation is that a few retirees after they recieve their bonus from Janurary.

With the EBA around the corner, this makes it one interesting time! What percentage of pay rise can they demand before they are called crazy? :E

[clinty83]

Yes I am talking about the commercial cadet program they were offering. You needed commercial licence passes in maths and english an instrument rating with all the aids but RNAV and last but not least the a frozen ATPL.

I have a contact on the inside and he tells me rumour has it that it MAY begin early next year. I damn hope he's right

Cathay have their usual cadet program also. I've applied for that one aswell but haven't got a reply in about a month. That one is based in Hong Kong though. I'd rather fly Dash 8's

[Dragun]

What percentage of pay rise can they demand before they are called crazy?

Mate, nothing was done in late 2007 as Qlink's desperation was becoming glaringly evident. THAT was the time to bend them over a barrel but nothing was even tried, the EBA was voted up in one foul standing. That being the case, I can assure you that next EBA will come up with nothing more than the standard 3% pittance the Qantas group offers as the company is nowhere near as short as they were becoming then.

What do you expect though when the first lot of Q400 drivers accepted a (barely) 6% payrise for a 33% bigger aircraft? :mad:

[clinty83]

TRAINING WHEELS

www.qantaslink.bfound.net (http://www.qantaslink.bfound.net)

just had my application in when the traineeships were on offer. just go to the web address above and create and account. providing you hold a cpl and instrument rating i think it lets you submit an application.

have you tried applying before?? what licences/ratings do you have ??

[training wheels]

TRAINING WHEELS

have you tried applying before?? what licences/ratings do you have ??

Yep, I went through with interview and sim ride the last time the traineeship was being offered. Didn't get through, though, but the rejection letter said we could reapply after 12 months.

I have CPL, current MECIR and all ATPLs .. about 400 hours TT.

BTW, that link goes to direct entry applications; no traineeships offered.

[clinty83]

Yep I know there is no traineeships on offer at the moment but that recruitment part of the site is where they'll look for candidates if and when the program comes back online.

sounds like your a little bit ahead of me so you will look more attractive to them. At present I've got CPL MECIR I've had to pick up highschool maths and english becasue I left school in Grade 11 and still have 5 ATPL's to do. My TT is about 310hrs. I'm workin my arse off to get things done by about Jan or Feb next year just in case. Have you seen Cathay's cadetships they offer?? just go to this site and apply. they have dropped the requirement to be a hong kong citizen.

Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home (http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/careers/flying)

[HappyBandit]

Hey Clinty

Your source is correct, in that they will be hiring again very soon. Word is by the end of this year, in this first instance the last figure I heard was approx 15-18 pilots that are already on the hold file. These guys (collective term) have a reasonable amount of experience however compared to the trainees with all possessing in excess of 3000 hours. Having said that I have also heard through the grapevine that the traineeship may/may not open back up next year. It was apparently reasonably successful after initial teething problems. Whilst economic climate has slowed, all accounts indicate that Qlink is doing very well thank you very much and it is a known fact that it is only a matter of time before hiring will take place again. The question on everyone's lips is when? :ok:

But dont get your hopes up mate, just be prepared....like other guys (collective term) indicate, get your ATPL's done ASAP that way you stand a better chance of getting a look in when the time comes around. As for the question should you stick around or not, well that all depends on you mate! Thing I learnt a little while back in aviation is this.....it wont come looking for you unfortunately....you have to go looking for it! Cheers!

[clinty83]

HappyBandit

Mate that is fantastic news to hear. I assume you are on the inside with some of the info that you've provided. I was talking to my contact yesterday 5/10 and he did mention the pilots with 3000hrs plus being hired soon. I had emailed Qlink to ask the question but got the response of Qantas cadets are coming back but Qlink commercial cadets aren't. I do get the feeling they are keeping or trying to keep their cards close to their chests.

I have, a couple of years ago, been in Ameria following many airshows and all the pilots I spoke to statred their professional jet/turbine careers with about 400hrs. In my opinion Australia is moving more towards competency based kind of hiring structure than the old fashioned go west and get a million hours. This perhaps may limit GA pilots and force up salaries. Another friend of mine is an F/O on 777's with V Australia and considering the long and winding path to get there is paid a little lower than I would have thought. On the upside I'm definitley not money orientated I'm surviving with a mortgage on 45k a year comfortably. I just want to fly some interesting machines with Qantaslink

Any idea on how many skippers are retiring next year??

Clinty83

[KRUSTY 34]

clinty83, your enthusiasm is definitely an asset, God knows the profession needs more new players with the passion. But don't be too preoccupied with the "competency" vs "experience" debate. The reason pilots in the US move into the regionals with 400 odd hours is not due to any sort of advancement in superior training or assesments, it's because for the money the operators are paying, these are the only pilots they gan get!

Pilots have always been prepared to do whatever it takes to get a foot in the door. It's that sort of game. As addictive as heroin, and just about as expensive. Problem is there are fewer young people in the population today willing to make the sacrifices, especially considering the steady decline in Terms and Conditions. Ergo, a situation where the experience requirements magically come down. Logic would dictate that in these circumstances wages and conditions should improve in an effort to attract the remaining experience out there, and to retain the assets already in house. Unfortunately, airlines are usually run by non-pilots with all the associated predudice's, or by former pilots, who in attaining their position have developed a ruthlesness towards their fellow aviators that perhaps you are yet to see! The result, is that airline management will do almost anything to replenish the ranks before considering the only thing that will ensure a long term solution to what will be an ongoing crewing crisis.

Also, don't worry too much about the 3000 hour applicants Qlink currently have on hold. When the major airlines start recruiting again, they will be gone faster than sh!t through a goose. Qlink have learnt nothing from the previous crewing crisis if they think otherwise!:=

[breakfastburrito]

On the upside I'm definitley not money orientated I'm surviving with a mortgage on 45k a year comfortably. I just want to fly some interesting machines with QantaslinkClinty83, don't take this the wrong way, I'm guessing that mortgage is not in a capital city.
If you ever want to:
Live within commuting distance of a capital city airport (ie flying aeroplanes).
Have kids.
retire on anything other than the old age pension at north of age 67.Then money is important.
Have you seen the SJS (http://shinyjetsyndrome.com/index.html)? It won't take that long to read through the whole site.
Good luck with your career, just don't let the mangers take money out of your pocket, and put it in their own.

[Spinnerhead]

In my opinion Australia is moving more towards competency based kind of hiring structure than the old fashioned go west and get a million hours.

That is the opinion of a few. However experience, in the right hand seat of most QLink Dash 8's, is conspicuous by its abscence.

This perhaps may limit GA pilots and force up salaries.

More likely it will reduce the experience required to get an airline job, which will increase the number of "suitable" pilots, which will in turn reduce pay and conditions.

Remember, the QLink traineeship was a solution of last resort, because it was much cheaper than raising salaries.

[neville_nobody]

I have, a couple of years ago, been in Ameria following many airshows and all the pilots I spoke to statred their professional jet/turbine careers with about 400hrs. In my opinion Australia is moving more towards competency based kind of hiring structure than the old fashioned go west and get a million hours

It is easier to get through the ranks in the USA however the pay is terrible until you get into a major. I mean terrible terrible. Struggle to survive terrible. Hence the billboards you see at airports by ALPA. Sure you might make it to a regional with 500 hours but have a look at the salary for the next five years. You might also find that after the Colgan Crash there might be a review by the government of a few things in regionals. You might also want to ask why all these guys in the USA always commute everywhere.

The Australian requirements are driven by either the Law or insurance requirements. Unless you change either of these there will always be the requirements. The fastest way to progress through the industry is to go to GA get the hours get into an airline DE then progress as soon as you can.

I heard of a story in QF where a guy who had done the whole GA thing bypassed a whole bunch of guys because he had the hours. He is now a FO I presume and the others are still SO's, even though they got into QF before him. It would be the same at QLink. You might get into the RHS quick yet be bypassed by a guy from GA who joins a year later because he has the experience you don't.

[Chocks Away]

You're on the money Neville with your last 2 paragraphs!
The fastest way to progress through the industry is to go to GA get the hours get into an airline DE then progress...

That "hopping over" others, progressing through a company, is happening everywhere and "pigeon-holing" in-experienced drivers is alive and well, as it locks/traps in labour in a company.
Try not to be a part of it and take control of your own career as it's about to go ballistic boys, very shortly:ok:...
China has just reached double-digit growth again, India is back on the boil after much "moving of the chairs", all Middle East carriers are still hunting for crew and many big International operators are ramping up their recruitment departments for action from this Nov/Dec!

All you need to do is look at all the contract work out there on the websites right now.

[KRUSTY 34]

Well said Nev, Chocks'.

Like the aftershocks following an earthquake, they may be lower on the richter scale, but the weakening of structures from the big one will see many that initially survived, collapse!

Will the recruiting frenzy of 2 years ago be repeated at a similar level? I dunno'? Some say it'll be even bigger. Now I don't quite believe that, not yet anyway, and I'm certain the management of Qlink, REX, etc... are praying like crazy it won't, but it won't take too much for these organisations to be plunged back into a crewing crisis once more.

The intersting question is, what will they do about it this time? I'm betting they'll try more of the same. That is of course untill the writing is well and truely on the wall. Then of course it will be too late!:sad:

[Mr. Hat]

go west and get a million hours

I don't think this will change very much in the near future however with in 10 years maybe.

Salaries up? Not thru shortages but thru no votes on EBA/EA and protected action unfortunately is the only way you will see a payrise in this country. Look at teachers nurses and police. Thats how they do it.

[bubble.head]

Neville - I saw a YouTube video that describe how much their pilot gets, like 20-30k us. That looks very little, but when you compare the cost of a box of cereal of .99 dollar. It is compariable to the regional pilots of oz.

At the end of the day. If both pilots have atpl, one worked in the ga for all his hours, while the other went to an airline, like qantaslink, as a fo. What would the bean counters pick??

[Bo777]

... new applicants or calling up those trainees that were previously selected and dropped into the infamous "hold" file?

Due to the lack of experience that most trainees have and the $$$ thrown at these pilots to train them, I can't see how the trainees who are/were on the "hold file" will be called up. Direct entry pilots "on hold" / new applicants that have the experience ... yes. But than again its up to the geniuses upstairs.:}

[Bo777]

... Traineeship (by some slim chance) being re-opened, would the trainees that were put on active hold be sent to the back of the queue along with any new Traineeship applicants. i.e. will the selection process (interview and sim ride etc) expire = please re-apply with the rest of the masses.

IF the traineeship was reopened I would expect some sort of reassessment with preference given to those on hold over new trainee applicants. But than again its up to the powers that be.

Didn't something similar happen to mainline candidates on hold/LOI's???

Yes :ouch::{:*

[neville_nobody]

Neville - I saw a YouTube video that describe how much their pilot gets, like 20-30k us. That looks very little, but when you compare the cost of a box of cereal of .99 dollar. It is compariable to the regional pilots of oz.


No it ain't!!! :mad: me!!!
Check this out. If you averaged 75 hours a month here is your FO pay at Colgan the airline that crashed at Buffalo. These guys have bases all up the east coast one is in NYC. Do you think you could live in NYC on this sort of moeny??

FO Q400
1st year $18 900
2nd year $23 400
3rd year $24 300
4th year $25 200
5th year $26 100
and so it goes......that ain't anything like Australian regional salaries.

And that is why the FO on that crash was living in her parents basement with her husband and commuting across the country.

[hoss]

what a fool i've been then. i should have been eating kellogs crunchy nut with clusters instead of living it up on subway and some may think that to be extravagent.

;)

[Zoomy]

Hope I don't get murdered posting thisbut here goes, Anyone on the hold file with start yet?

I know the website says progressing slowly, but I am gonna be an old man soon.:ok:

[j3pipercub]

but I am gonna be an old man soon

Feel your pain, I get old waiting for them to fly a circuit or an RNAV. :} Confirm that ETA??:}

j3

[The_Pharoah]

Whats the equivalent Qantaslink salary range for FOs/Capts?

[roger_ramjet]

FO starts around $54k, maybe $58k on the 400
4 year Captain starts around $89k, over $105k for 10yr+ Captain on Q400

add to these at least $5k per year in overnight expenses, sometimes a lot more.

not bad for a part time job...

[Fonz121]

Part time job Roger??

Looks like they are getting ready to recruit DE FO's again. Emails have been sent out to update files before Oct 18th.

[roger_ramjet]

It may just be a combination of GFC, over-recruiting in 07/08 and schedule reduction but the rosters have been very light the past 12 months. 40-50 duty hours every 4 weeks is hardly full time employment!

[ksa5223]

Don't you get paid the same anyway? More time off. Sounds ideal really.

[Maloo]

We don't get extra time off rostered. We just get given more reserve days. It usually ends up being a day off so it's kinda ideal.

Maloo

[Merlins Magic]

40-50 duty hours every 4 weeks

What!! As a BN based Q400 FO we have been doing 70-75 flight hours per 4 week roster over the last3 months.

Feel your pain, I get old waiting for them to fly a circuit or an RNAV. Confirm that ETA??

Last time I checked, the ETA was a circuit time not a touchdown time.

[Dragun]

We don't get extra time off rostered. We just get given more reserve days. It usually ends up being a day off so it's kinda ideal.

Actually no, a reserve day is not ideal and that's the problem. Unfortunately our EBA says that we only get a minimum of 8 days off so that's what they give - even if it means 12 days of reserve. A reserve day is still considered a work day! For the love of God don't start treating it as a DDO if you happen not to get called otherwise come next year for the EAA EBA, we'll have everyone accepting 8 days off again whilst they send us on 5 day trips up the Brisbane!

There is a reason why Virgin crews get a minimum of 12 days off a roster - it's because they do longer trips. Somehow we're copping 3-5 day trips without any additional days off to compensate. For some reason people view allowances as the extra payment for consecutive overnights which again, is completely wrong!

Apart from certain issues, it is still generally a great job. The EBA just needs some work in certain areas next year.

[j3pipercub]

Last time I checked, the ETA was a circuit time not a touchdown time.

True, but when you read the ETA off the whizz bang gear when you're coming down the hill, and then slow to 140-150kts by 10 miles and don't modify your ETA, it gets a bit frustrating...

[UDH]

We don't get extra time off rostered. We just get given more reserve days. It usually ends up being a day off so it's kinda ideal.

Maloo

Maloo,
You maybe suffering from head trauma, or is it the naivety of youth? A reserve/standby day is NOT a day off nor is it ideal. Many aviation professionals have a life that involves more than just themselves and their over inflated ego’s. Rostered days of grey do not allow for family’s to make concrete plans in advance nor does Mr Childcare facility accept a request for a position to be permanently made available, in case my employer wants me to work as they can’t make up there mind what is going on. A few days here and there on reserve is an accepted part of the job in order for schedule coverage, beyond this is just pure rostering incompetence. "I am not as indecisive as I once was.. Maybe I am.. Oh I’m not sure now.. Let’s just put them all on reserve". Or is it that we can do it so we will, which makes it worse, draconian management pratice “sir the peasants are revolting”. As we head down a path where the company would love to have 300 casual tech crew I am comforted to know that this is ideal for you.

So Maloo, as you lie there in bed of a night gazing at your freshly polished epaulettes’ (still enclosed in the plastic wrapper), I can almost hear the Coxswain’s words drifting through your head “stroke, stroke, stroke…….”

[Di_Vosh]

For the love of God don't start treating it as a DDO if you happen not to get called otherwise come next year for the EAA EBA, we'll have everyone accepting 8 days off again whilst they send us on 5 day trips up the Brisbane!


That needs to be reposted. :ok:

(And again early next year)

DIVOSH!

[newsensation]

The EBA just needs some work in certain areas next year

Do you think you would like to join the pilot council! now is the time to think about the EBA (eastern's) that is due july 1 2010

If you cant get the big bucks then it boils down to life style....

[bubble.head]

Reserve days suck for those who lives far far away. It pretty much means most of the time you are on house arrest, or you decided to go out for a bite, and your phone magically starts ringing.

8 days off isn't so bad, and the 3-5 days trip is currently temporary. However, what I hate is the fact that they roster you 6 days straight, one day off, and another 6 days straight. What is the deal with that?! The upstairs people need to wake up.

I like how the schedule is picking up. It would gets interesting next year. :ok:

[pjam]

Apparently...

As soon as you submit just one roster bid, doesn't matter what it is, that automatically removes the rostering protections provided by the EBA, ie paired days off around a 6 day duty and an attempt to give you at least one weekend off per roster. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ouch:

[clear to land]

Tell me its not true that you guys seriously agreed in an EBA to allow SINGLE days off? And Res is a DUTY whether you go anywhere or not (thought Airline pilots were supposed to have a clue :ugh: )
Bubble Head: 8 days off for a pilot who can be rostered to work on ANY day of the year, and outside of office hours, with no Public Holiday loading, is APPALLING!!!! What happened to compensation for availability 365 days (or 366 when req'd)........... :ugh::ugh:

[bubble.head]

What happened to compensation for availability 365 days (or 366 when req'd)

That's where the 6 weeks annual leave comes in, instead of the normal 4?

[clear to land]

Bubble Head, 42 DAYS is a PARTIAL compensation. It DOES NOT make up for the things such as weekends being normal workdays etc. It is a shift compensator, but all other shiftworkers receive shift loadings etc, pilots and cabin crew don't. That is why 8 days is unacceptable, 10 is barely there and 12 is better. Whether the company uses Sabre, Geneva, Kronos or ADOPT, ALL of these programs can ensure maximum utilisation, IF the company is well run. On SH/Regional routes, Pilots should easily be able to do 25 hrs a week in a 4 day week, or equivelent Reserve coverage. It just needs the PILOTS to INSIST on PRODUCTIVITY- which is supposed to be the purpose of GOOD management - in the EBA. The means is readily available, speak with the rostering program people, you will find that for maximum productivity AND flexibility a 14-15 day window is the best, which obviously then allows 2-3 Reserves per month. Find out the facts! No wonder the profession is degrading with these sort of thought processes!! (NB Not aimed at Bubble in particular but ALL WHO THINK LIKE THAT). Same with single days off- UNACCEPTABLE :ugh:

[watchboy]

To the bloke complaining about the ETA. Slowing down to the speeds you mentioned at 10 miles should make at the most 1 to 2 minutes difference to the ETA. Lets hope you don't come across any real problems in aviation. By the way, GPS is hardly wizz bang gear these days.

[Friction Nut]

Whether the 3-5 day trip/duty is temporary or not, it needs to be incorporated in the next EBA, otherwise, were just going to see it happen again. The company will wind the big trips down soon, hope we have forgotten about it by next year, once the new EBA is signed off, they are free to start sending us away for days at a time, once again... And we are back to square one..!!! There has to be some sort of compensation for it in the next EBA.

I was of the understanding that if you do 6 days straight, you are supposed to have 2 days off at the start and at the end, unless you specifically bid otherwise. Rostering know this and Geneva should do it automatically.

I dont believe that as soon as you submit a roster bid it removes any roster protection. In fact I think you will find it may be the opposite. If you dont bid, you have basically no protection, and you could end up with the roster from hell. If you do bid, and do what most people do, bid for the weekends that you want off, then you should, by all means get that weekend off, of course, based on seniority etc etc..... I think the clause in the EBA says that if you dont bid, you will still get a weekend off "where practicable", or something to that nature. But we all know this rarely happens. Moral of the story-- bid for what you want. Thats what it is there for.

Regardless of this EBA, which is absolute rubbish, and should never have got up. The next EBA and pilot council needs some serious change.

[badboiblu]

Think you will find that the single day off is only in the Eastern EBA.
In the Sunstate EBA you can only be given a single day off if it is addition to your normal paired eight days off. So most sunstate pilots get 9 days off each or every secong roster.
This does change if you request, but only if you request for a certain day off. Not and early start or late finish.

[DeafStar]

Now I know why Sunstate pilots wouldnt touch the 'lifestyle' rostering system with an 80 foot pole in their last EBA negotiation. Sounds awful.

[grrowler]

Lifestyle roster: We take your lifestyle, you take our roster:}

[roger_ramjet]

So why are Eastern crews coming to Brisbane for 3-5 day trips when Sunstate FO's are doing bugger all?

[Dragun]

No where does it say that bids remove the clause that says you have to have 2 paired days preceding and following 6 days of work. That's just the bull**** excuse that is given for incompetent rostering practices. Even if you bid for 3 consecutive DDO, that doesn't mean they can do it. Worst case they can spread more single days throughout, even though that is also pathetic.

If you get rostered 6 days on, MAKE SURE YOU GET 2 PAIRED DDO'S ON EITHER SIDE OR YOU ARE LETTING THEM GET AWAY WITH A BREACH OF THE EBA!!! DON'T BE SOFT!!

Friction Nut - exactly. It doesn't matter whether the 3-5 day trips are temporary or not, the problem is that they're pulling something now that isn't in the EBA, but can technically be rostered because there is nothing that prevents it. Next EBA MUST have something to grant additional days off if more than X consecutive overnights are rostered in a row.

Then there's the meal issue....

[Hugh Jarse]

You need to ask the CHAIR of the pilot council what deals he's doing behind your back to vary the EBA without your approval? (meals and breaks, Dragun)

Now that you guys are doing multi day trips, is the company providing you with transport to and from work (as you're entitled to under your EBA)?

Whoever wrote that a reserve day is like a day off here needs his head read! It is a duty day (but Eastern don't count it as duty unless you're allocated flying on the day). You are available on 2 hours call. Just because you might not get called does NOT mean it's the same as a day off! You have still been available and within 2 hours of the airport.

The current rostering system you have agreed to has knobs on it, and is unworkable from a lifestyle point of view with only 8 days off in 28. The only way it can work is to have extra days off to allow for requests and "rotation" (as the rostering guru's call it) and to avoid single days off. Otherwise, you're gonna end up with the ****load of 6 days on with single days off that you're getting now (to allow for "rotation", as the rostering guru's call it)!

Tell them to sit on it and "rotate" at your next EBA.

[Friction Nut]

Oh yes, the meal issue... Has anyone seen this apparent letter of understanding between the company and the federation about the cold meal issue whilst flying out of brisbane...? I dont imagine so... This is all going too far. They are really taking advantage of our good nature now... Its got to change.

And the issue of 9 hour duties with a 3 and a half hour break in the middle... For goodness sake.