Captain's discretion to extend FDP

[red8]

Lets say you have four legs to Durban and back from your base at OR Tambo. You complete your first leg on time but then you are delayed for a few hours in Durban. You return to your base at JHB and you realize that you will still be within FDP on your way to Durban but you will bust FDP on your way back to base. While sitting in aircraft at base waiting to depart can you start planning to use captain's discretion to return to your base?

(The crux of the question is whether or not you may plan from where you are at base station to return to base station knowing that you would need to use captain's discretion to return. Would you need a crew change?)

:bored:

[THRidle]

What flight time limitations are your company using ? ( ICAO, JAR etc )

[TopBunk]

iirc you can exercise up to two hours discretion at any stage, but the third hour before commencement of the final sector of the day (all except in extremis, time of war etc).

[Der absolute Hammer]

I do not think that under JAR/ICAO CAA FTL scheme Captain discretion can be used to launch from home base when you know that the return leg from away station back to home base will put you in to discretion. Discretion may not be used for flight planning but that is exactly what is suggested here.

[Kennytheking]

Hi guys,

I believe this is an internal company issue....not a legal issue.

If you can complete the 3rd sector and land within FDP then I say you can do it.

I think what you are actually saying is that my boss is going to be really angry if I phone him from an outstation and tell him that I can't complete the flight due to FDP. Thats maybe why you are trying to take the decision before even departing.

Also, I consider anything after I leave briefing as actual rather than planned. So if sector 3 and 4 run late, that is not planned, even though you are leaving home base. Not to leave on the 3rd sector implies that you do not have the discretion to refuse the 4th sector, which according to the law you do have, so as I said....an internal company issue.

As a matter of interest Emirates FOM makes provision for this scenario and allows us to depart on the first and subsequent sectors using discretion.

Regards

[spongebathbob]

You cannot leave your home base for a flight knowing you will exceed the FDP's....If you have a 4 leg Durban/OR Tambo you have to get off when you return and cannot complete the other two.....You are allowed up to 10 3/4 hours on 4 sectors....Jeepers how long was your delay?

[nugpot]

You can leave home base knowing that leg 4 might need an extension. The idea is to evaluate the state of the crew before departing on leg 4 to see whether the flight can be completed safely.

This subject was addressed exactly a year ago on these forums:
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/305937-definitive-answer-fdp-extension-required.html

There is no mention in the law that you cannot depart home base knowing that an extension might be required.

[spongebathbob]

Whats the point then on having FDP's if you know quite well you going to exceed them from the first sector......as the link attached in the previous thread...the one guys says its very vague....i see nothing has changed.....

[nugpot]

Whats the point then on having FDP's if you know quite well you going to exceed them from the first sector......as the link attached in the previous thread...the one guys says its very vague....i see nothing has changed....

OK, lets take the FDP scheme apart.

FDP is there to ensure that crews are adequately rested to conduct safe operations.

The Company is not allowed to plan a schedule that will exceed their FDP scheme.

Crews are required to remain within their FDP limits with the one exception. The captain is allowed to extend the crew's FDP by up to 2 hrs (3 in emergency) if in his considered opinion the flight can be conducted safely. This can only be done on the day of operations and has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. He also has the discretion to reduce the minimum rest of his crew by up to 1 hr and still allow a full FDP on the following day.

I agree with kennytheking. This is more a Co issue. If the problem is leg 4, you can legally depart and complete leg 3 within FDP. The captain can then exercise his discretion to RTB with leg 4. If the Co expects you to regularly use discretion because their schedule is too tight, I suggest that this be addressed with the Co, and failing that with the CAA.

Just read the section on discretion in the CATS & CARS. There is no mention of not departing home base knowing that the return might require extension. The decision to extend is left to the captain, who should use his DF.

The Co cannot force the captain to extend.

[campervan]

Wouldn't the argument boil down to planned and actual?

In other words, you're sitting back at your base FAJS after legs 1&2 and now you have to repeat them, but you KNOW before leaving base on leg 3 you are going to exceed FDP on leg 4. Doesn't that mean you are planning it? You may be feeling fine before leg 3 but what if its a bit taxing and you end up at FADN not quite as bright eyed and bushy tailed as when you left FAJS? And what if there were then further delays at FADN.

Surely the correct thing to do would be to inform the operator that you will be out of FDP at the end of leg 3. Then, should you arrive at FADN and NOT feel up to leg 4 they cannot hold it against you and in the same light if there were further delays at FADN you couldn't be held responsible for running out of exceedence time.

After all, the exceedence time is a buffer zone, and to knowingly go into that when there is an alternative solution (standby crew), defeats the purpose of it.

[777Contrail]

You may not depart on a flight, or flight pairing, while you know you'll be outside of FDP AND having the means at your disposal NOT to exceed FDP (home base have standby/replacement crew).

You may complete a duty and exceed and/or extend FDP from an outstation towards a base where replacement crew is available.

The intention of the law is to have legal planning AND legal operation.

You cannot start a duty that's not planned to be legal, AND you cannot complete a legally planed duty if the duty, for whatever reason, becomes illegal.

Who will answer the questions after the incident?

The company will say that they will NEVER let you fly outside of FDP, or tired, or sick!!

It was YOU that made the decision, you take the blame.

[Avi8tor]

The question was on a multi sector day.

If leg 3 is departing home base and is legal, but you know leg 4 will require extention, the operator would be rather dim not to swap the crew out.

I suspect the REAL answer will depend in where leg 3 terminates and how good my increase was last yr.

[nugpot]

You may not depart on a flight, or flight pairing, while you know you'll be outside of FDP AND having the means at your disposal NOT to exceed FDP (home base have standby/replacement crew).


Sorry mate. Please find me something in the law that states that.....

As said by Avi8tor, the Co would be stupid to allow a possible unplanned stop for a/c and crew, but there is nada in the law that prohibits you from leaving - in fact, that is the whole intent of extension.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Well, for the UK you can go here....

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

Section B page 12. Paragraph 18 et seq.,

The operator would possible need reminding that if there is another delay down the line then the flight might be grounded ex crew hours, but I do not in fact see what it cannot be done. The eventuality that leads to the extension of the FDP in this case would be used for what actually did happen - delay in FADN after leg 2. There seems nothing about departing home base here. If that is so-then you could arrive for the beginning of four sectors, be delayed due de ice(?) for the leg one departure and then use discretion to complete the full four sectors. One has to remember that the rest period of minimum twelve hours might mean some footwork on the part of Crewing for the next crew duty cycle though?
I think that the crux of this is that you may not use discretion to fit the flight schedule into but you may use it to get home or to complete a disrupted cycle for unavooidable circumstances?

[Kennytheking]

Guys,

Referring to the CAP371 doc link posted here, please look at section B para 18.2..............and I quote

In a Flying Duty Period involving 2 or
more sectors up to a maximum of 2 hours discretion may be exercised prior to the
first and subsequent sectors.

Your ops manual may or may not include this quote but lets start with the assumption that it does.......

It seems pretty clear to me.....it does not matter why you depart, whether technical, weather or a tight schedule.....you may depart knowing you will go into discretion. You may even start a 4 sector day knowing you will go into discretion.

If you think the schedule is too tight then this will be reflected in multiple discretion reports which the CAA will scrutinize during annual audit.

[non iron]

lf ops called you before report time that you will have to fly into discretion then you can`t.

lf you report on schedule to find that you will overun then you will have to excercise your "discretion".

" Do you want to pay your mortgage this month?" a government official in the UK told me on complaining. That was 15yrs ago, before the sensible ones retired.

JAA or whatever, Ops won`t call for plainly obvious reasons.

That`s it really. Sorry.

[nugpot]

The point here is that the law is actually quite vague.

Statements like the one from 777Contrail
You may not depart on a flight, or flight pairing, while you know you'll be outside of FDP AND having the means at your disposal NOT to exceed FDP (home base have standby/replacement crew).
is just plain wrong.

Although I completely agree with Champagne Lover
Now surely, when debating extension of FDP you should look at where the authorities were thinking when they drew up the rules?? There is a huge difference between operating a long-haul jet halfway across the world, with the chance of a diversion due to X, and then re-fuelling same day and getting the last stretch to out-base completed. Compare this with operating 4/5/or 6 legs locally and using the CARS loopholes for commercial reasons, where you should be employing sufficient crew to do the business you're involved in for your financial gain????
this is of no relevance.

According to the law, you cannot plan to exceed when setting out the pairing/string/flight. Anything after that (on the day of operations), passes the buck to the Captain who may utilise his legal discretion to extend the FDP for himself and his crew.

As the Captain, you have the responsibility for the safety of the a/c, crew and passengers/cargo. If you are worth four stripes, you will know when to exercise your discretion to extend and when not. The law leaves this completely up to you - as it should.

[non iron]

Bless you Nugpot.

The only vagueness ( no offence ) will happen with the crew, and later the pax.

The management have it off to a very fine art, aided and abetted by the local government. Tourist dollars just a start. Peeing into the wind will get you nowhere. Trust me, l used to be a Vicar.

lt doesn`t actually matter what you may expect to happen, once on duty the powers that be expect you to continue to the point of being out of hours, and then disagree. You didn`t have a problem before did you ?

Up untill that point you weren`t out of hours, the flight maybe cancelled, the company could have gone bust, l`m not joking.

Once having reported, you have to stick with it.
A stand up shouting match over the phone from Gothenberg proved it to me.
Sorry, but butt clenchingly true.

[Avi8tor]

I think we have had this thread out. It's simple.

U may leave home base on the 3rd/5th/7th sector of the day, even if u know u will have to exceed to come home. When u land, you then decide if you feel like/it is safe to continue.

If not, its a night stop or its late beers.

[non iron]

Or a P45.

And get it in writing. But you can`t.

[campervan]

Catch 22 Avi8tor,

Before leaving base you know you will exceed FDP, but you can only decide that when you get there.

1. You decide to leave base knowing you may not be up to a return trip. It costs the company money (flight delays, hotel rooms etc.) If you can't do it.

2. You call in the relief crew. It costs the company... (Actually don't they pay a crew to be on standby? Shouldn't that all be factored in to crew rostering? Or are we talking about one of those airlines that cannot afford to call in standby crew because they in actual fact don't have them [as opposed to theoretical fact, where they are available but it will screw up their rostering for the next month?].

Should be simple. The law regarding FDP was written after an analysis of accidents involving fatigue. It seems to be working, which is why operators forget that there were those accidents in the first place and don't like the law.

Catch 22.

Personally, when I'm fatigued you won't get me into a cockpit, because I want to live with all the pax Not risk killing everyone because I overlooked something because I was tired.

So basically, this law was written after a continued study of avaition accidents where it is quite obviouse that a major proportion of the accidents were caused by fatigue.

However, no one cares about that until the next accident caused by fatigue.

(You have to love it, they do studies on 747 pilots on final approach, and the stress levels go through the roof. Heartbeat etc. So don't tell me flying is an ordinary job. So why should someone sitting in a nice air-conditioned office decide the fate of someone who is exposed to extreme environmental conditions [and for this I mean flying an aeroplane in defiance of the laws of gravity and nature).

So.... At the end of this narrative (or possibly a rant and rave). It does not matter to me how many sectors are planned for me on any specific day. I will reach my limit, and its tough TT for you.

I will always do as much as I can to help the company, but above your profit margins, above your ideallogy, is my licence, which is the ticket for my family to eat.

I don't doubt for one minute that if I broke the law to support your interests and something went wrong, that you would walk away from me (and my interests to support my family) and pass the buck to me.

After all,

I am the Captain:

The final disposition of the aircraft rests with me. NO-ONE else.