"Is Airmanship Dead"

[Wally Mk2]

In the lattest FSA is the question......."Is Airmanship Dead"?
In short my answer would be just about sadly:sad: I see /hear it almost daily, or the lack of it!

Having just sat down & read this article I am amused at some of the comments made by some so called well know aviation identities/businesses.
Some seem to think it's about handling skills, how good you are at actually flying the machine.
i don't feel that's correct at all. You can teach a monkey to fly an A/C I believe airmanship has little if any do with actual handling of a plane. You can't 'teach' airmanship I reckon, it comes with experience & a lot of common sense. Sure some fly better than others as in accuracy etc but to link that manipulative skill in with airmanship? come on plz:ugh: Some did in my opinion make good comments re airmanship but one contributor did hit the nail on the head exactly with results of a pilot online survey & i'll quote this person...."safety, rules, regulations & procedures: courtesy/good manners: situational awareness/look-out & communication" unquote (although the contributors response was slightly longer)
Steve Tizzard also touched on what real airmanship is via his comments.

That is what I too believe to be the basis of airmanship, not a word was said in this article re handling an A/C or how 'well hung you are' but am sure some would have believed this but it didn't make it in the final wash up too much probably

Your thoughts out there guys/gals without the usual nasty comments either plz that this forum brings out in some.



WMK2

[The Green Goblin]

Airmanship is not what it used to be!

Airpersonship is alive and well :ok:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Steve Tizzard also touched on what real airmanship is via his comments.
For those that didn't read it; "airmanship is just common bl##dy sense around aeroplanes"
Concur entirely. Unfortunately common sense isn't very common these days, and the trend is to try and legislate it.

[mattyj]

Airmanship sounds like some term that a silly old ex RAF WW2 superpilot with a massive moustache made up.

Just get as much experience as you can..the more you get..the better driver you will be!

[Gordstar]

A good discussion to kick off, I believe good airmanship is an almost indefinable quality which some aviators have.
You will probably find they also have good "roadmanship" skills.
Someone with good airmanship will be the consumate pilot who looks after his/her aircraft, communicates, considers others and remains aware of where he or she is in the universe and does not fly beyond their own abilities.
Wish there were more.
And the poor old legislators cannot do a dam thing about it!
Cheers.

[the wizard of auz]

I think removing ones spurs before mounting the flying machine is a good start to good airmanship.......... not only that, it was a regulation back in the good old days.:ok:

[sms777]

As i stated before in other posts,they do not teach airmanship in the classroom.
It comes with hard earned experience over the years.
I believe it also reflects the personality on the ground.

Welcome back Capt Wally, posts like this will definetly get you back in the good books.

:ok:

[glekichi]

Ill have a go.

I think airmanship is a measure of the common sense used when a situation arises that is not defined by rules, regulations, SOPs, or what has been taught in the classroom.

To attempt to legislate and "teach" airmanship is paradoxical.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Just bought "Flight Discipline" by Tony Kern and finally someone has put their finger on the "undefinable" aspect of airmanship.

SELF DISCIPLINE.

...uncompromising self-discipline in every aspect of your flying from preparation, to planning, aircraft handling, R/T procedures, regulatory compliance and professional knowledge.

He makes the point very clearly that a great many pilots with tens of thousands of hours and incalculable "experience" who, unquestionably, demonstrate the greatest degree of "common sense" as espoused by Tizzard, still manage to kill themselves (and usually others) through a breakdown in discipline.

I can think of 4 aviation "leading lights" who have managed to depart once too often in the last 4 years, and their demise can be put down to a breakdown of discipline at some point.

Like all "born again" preachers I am a hypocrite and a sinner but I have found a new bible to preach from ... Hallelujiah brothers! :ok:

[Jet_A_Knight]

Tony Kearn's books are solid reading - and a must -for all aviators.:ok:

[trashie]

Tony Kern's first book "Redefining Airmanship" provides sound tangible advice on the fundamental requirements for airmanship that result in better situational awareness, judgement and decision making.

[empacher48]

I agree that Airmanship is a lot to do with common sense.. Unfortunately not only in aviation are we seeing that common sense is no longer around in society.

People aren't being taught to think for themselves or perceive risk and take the appropriate actions. At my current airport (which is owned by the airline I work for) I see new students come in for a visit, a good part of their cross country training. But simple things like not starting up with prop wash blowing all sorts of stuff into hangars, or doing run ups over loose stones - things I class as airmanship (common sense) are ignored or not taught.

I was fortunate to have an instructor who when I blew stuff into a hangar, handed me a broom, I learnt that lesson, when I did a run up over loose chip, I got a whole heap of unairworthy props to remove chips from those props. Things I doubt are done in large flying schools, where instructors are so flat out they can't spend the one on one time with the student outside the lesson to pass on these simple, but important lessons. Also the student these days doesn't hang around the flying school listening to the older more experienced guys and gals and their pearls of wisdom. For me a lesson was a whole day event, by the time you spent time with the older members of the club, you learned a lot more than what a poor overworked instructor could teach.

But I'm sure there are more wiser heads in here that have probably a better idea than me. :ok:

[clear to land]

Although I agree with the general direction of this thread, I believe that, to an extent, Airmanship can be taught/learned. It is primarily by example, and also, as Kerns states, by a self disciplined approach. Consider: an instructor educates the SPL not to use high power or to physically move the tail of the C152 so the slipstream doesn't blow into the open hanger before taxiing; years later the SPL-now an ATPL, is wary of the effects of jet blast behind his BoeingBus etc. Thus the instructor has TAUGHT an element of Airmanship, as the new SPL had not thought about things such as slipstream in their non aviation life. In the same vein, the instructor always looks left/right/above/down before EVERY turn, the student finds, years later, that they are still doing this- again a LEARNED habit. I do agree that Common Sense isn't that common these days, but in most (yes not all) cases it can be developed. :ok:

[Gundog01]

I always thought airmanship was about "sounding good on the radio and looking good on finals".:ok:

The RAAF teaches AIRMANSHIP and BFTS. It is a 66 page book with airmanship defined as: "the safe and efficient handling on an aircraft both in the air and on the ground". It also talks about Discipline, Correct attitude towards flying (professionalism) and Commonsense.

Thoughts??

[Wally Mk2]

funny but true 'Gundog01' To some its is all about sounding/looking good & if it works then great that's airmanship to them:)

As for the RAAF teachings? summed it up very well. I think we all agree the one basic word here 'commonsense' is everything, trouble is looking both ways b4 you cross the rd is commonsense too but still some get flattened!


WMk2

[HardCorePawn]

Someone with good airmanship will be the consumate pilot who looks after his/her aircraft, communicates, considers others and remains aware of where he or she is in the universe and does not fly beyond their own abilities.


QFT... :D


This basically sums up the standard I strive for whilst aviating...

[goddamit]

Airmanship is a dying culture. To the nitwits who think experience is all it takes..you guys/girls don't get it. I've worked 8yrs in GA & 8 yrs in airlines & in my opinion generally airmanship is fading away. Airmanship, to put it simply is etiquette & responsibility. Nuf said.

[mattyj]

Bollocks, etiquette & responsibility have nothing to do with aviation...you should have those before you get in an aeroplane!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I always thought airmanship was about "sounding good on the radio and looking good on finals".http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

?? I thought airmanship was all about looking good in the aeroclub bar !!

Dr :8

Oh no, silly me - that's spelt with a "t" not a "p", isn't it!

[sms777]

The best teachers of airmanship are.... your mum and dad!
It is also called "discipline". It applies in the class room, at home or at work or more importantly in the cockpit.

[Wally Mk2]

...................."Bollocks, etiquette & responsibility have nothing to do with aviation"............wow!!! to think that somebody actually believes that 'responsibility' has nothing to do with aviation!:sad:

Seems to me that airmanship sure is dead with beliefs like the above:sad:

'sms777' yes to some degree yr correct airmanship does start with mum & dad or more from home. But aviation in it's early days as a single pilot is about making decisions on ones own a lot without the help of the 'mums & dads' of the world so hence the word discipline is a core grounding for good airmanship.

Wmk2

[Flyer517]

I responded to the thread about the 2RN reporting point elsewhere in this forum and raised the airmanship issue there. To quote myself:

"I think very few students ever get it drummed in to their heads that flying is a dangerous activity for those who do not pay it the utmost respect."

Understanding that flying can be dangerous and most definitely IS unforgiving, and treating it with the appropriate respect is the start of your education in airmanship. From that recognition, everything you do as a pilot reflects your airmanship. Anything from the courtesy you pay your fellow pilots in the briefing room, to the way you handle an engine, and the respect you show for the weather.

Having said that, I think it's very difficult to define the term in a simple sentence.

It's one of those things where you can almost say, if you need it explained you don't have it! A little harsh perhaps but there is a grain of truth in there.

[xxgoldxx]

the problem is selective application.. so many people seem to feel "common sense" is the essence of "airmanship"..

to me common sense is being aware that I am the only person on the radio in XXX ctaf and devoting my time to looking out the window etc whilt flying ccts and listening for new arrivals rather than cluttering up 126.7 etc with all the currently reccomended radio calls..

to many this makes me a sinner of the highest degree..

so is it blindly following rules and then using common sense for the bits left out.. or do we need rules that state when and how to do everything from run ups to parking..

hang on a minute.. thats in the ops manual right..??

so common sense would only be needed by private pilots with no ops manual then..?

apolgies to the spelling police.!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Airmanship is all about having thought out your flight before you get it the machine.

Then thinking ahead of where you are once airborne.

But most important it is knowing when to say no.

If that saying that being " Anti authority " is a sign of a pilot at high risk of having an accident then I should have been dead decades ago. :E

[teresa green]

An interesting question. After 49 years of airline flying, the changes to flying and pilots is quite amazing. I was 19 years old when I joined TAA, and a First Officer to many WW2 Bomber Command pilots who joined the Airlines. These blokes were as hard as nails, very good pilots, and fairly cynical, (as you can imagine as many were only 24 or 25 years old, but had seen far to much) But their airmanship was second to none. Always ten minutes ahead of their Aircraft, they had a inbuilt sense of problems ahead, (dodging bullets and flaK certainly honed their ability to think) but as they got older,and as the Airlines over a period of time,took away the ability for a pilot to think for himself, they became quite frustrated. You young ones out there who think the airlines are the b all, money wise perhaps, but your lives are going to be dominated by the dreaded manuals, and you will find it extremely annoying at times when the problem is obvious, but you still reach for the manual like a well trained monkey. What I am trying to say, whilst in GA learn everything you can, enjoy your flying, Always remember a Aircraft is a good servant but a poor master, and never never ever trust the bastards. For you young ones flying in the bush, enjoy every moment it is the best flying you will ever do, and you will look back on it with fond memories. Airmanship comes natually to a good pilot, he/she hears that slight change in the donk, a feeling that all is not as it should be, and never ignores that feeling, you will take that into the airlines with you, a instinct that you have learnt without even knowing it, so yes Airmanship is very important, even though the airlines will strip you of it, to a degree, with their bloody manuals, so as a old fella who has flown everything from a B747/400 to a Tiger Moth, you have chosen a great career, have fun, and a Happy Xmas.

[sms777]

A big salute to you for your post! :D

Merry Christmas.

[Aerohooligan]

'Common sense. So rare it's a goddamn superpower.' ;)

[Wally Mk2]

'TG' if only one could 'buy' yr type of experience. Took 49 yrs to gain it & when you think about it you where probably just getting on top of everything in aviation when it was time to stop talking into the gosport & land for the last time:) Yr breed (which I might add had real true grit) are but almost memories now, it's a whole new ball game out there these days & often 'played' appallingly..
At the end of a long career as a pilot yr licence is worth what? zip, zero but the memories & yr experiences live on 'till the end & are priceless:ok:

xmas hey? ahhhh commercialism at it's worst


Wmk2

Wally that would be about one of the most insensitive posts I have ever read...TG isn't posting from the grave:ugh:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

TG, top post:ok: I learnt "what airmanship is all about" from guys like you:ok:




edit....does that sound better?

[Horatio Leafblower]

MODS

Can we re-name this thread "Is punctuation dead"

[teresa green]

No I am not quite dead yet fellas, and still enjoy flying a lighty up to the NT with some mates, to chase the Barra. But when I do my last circuit, I hope I find a lot of mates, in some little bar up the track, where the women are young and the whisky is old, and we can talk about the days of crackling jet donks, and the beautiful sounds of merlin engines, and the lovely howl of a focker friendship as she returns to base. If you all have as much enjoyment out of your career as I did, then all is well. Good Luck to each and everyone of you, and safe flying.

[future.boeing.cpt]

That post, good sir, was amazing.
:ok:

[mattyj]

We live right next to the Airport and we get a Focker on night freight outside our bedroom window at 11pm nightly..those howling Darts are anything but lovely I assure you!

[Wally Mk2]

......................Wally that would be about one of the most insensitive posts I have ever read...TG isn't posting from the grave:ugh:

Mod/s such an addition to my post isn't at all surprising coming for you lot, you guy/gals have no idea!!! What is it with you lot? Are you that much of a control freak/s that yr scratching for dumb ass comments like that to make me appear public enermy No1 or insensative? I would be flawed if TG thought I was having a go at him from what I posted,(in fact I was admiring the man & still do all his posts) I believe it's more you lot that have an awful chip on yr/s shoulder/s. You can ban me 'till the cows come home, those genuine people in here know that what I type here isn't nasty, isn't something that could be used in a court of law & comes from years of experience with perhaps some humor thrown in, (they are actually just personal opinions like ever one elses)the latter you guys are sadly lacking in:sad:


Wmk2

p.s.... TG plz accept my apologies if I have or have appeared to have been insensative towards you.

[teresa green]

Wally, you have not offended me in the slightest, good luck to you young fella, and happy new year.

[Wally Mk2]

Tnxs "TG" I didn't think I had offended you, just the Mod/s but if it's 'cause I post too much or thread drift, (that's all I have ever been "charged" with) then I am as guilty as hell & deserved to be jailed & flogged:ugh:
I started this particular thread & for good reason, I only hope some have gained from it b4 it/me gets slammed

Wmk2

[multime]

Dear Guys
Airmanship is not dead.
I still give way, hold short, and am gratefull to do so as i give respect and expect the same.
M:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

'Multi' that's great, you nailed 'Airmanship' on the head, RESPECT. Nothing to do with flying the actual machine, as I said earlier a monkey can do that.


Wmk2:ok:

[Grogmonster]

WMK2,

I like your thread. A lot of the comments are good. Bottom line is, "Do unto others..........." You know what I mean. Think before Do. Great work.

Groggy.

[the wizard of auz]

Great work.
You reckon?...... I think he should be Jailed and flogged for excessive posting and thread drift. Then Ban him...... that will learn him. :}:E

[Wally Mk2]

tnxs 'grog', I think I'll need all the support I can get if the likes of 'wiz' gets his way:) Maybe 'wiz' is into a bit of B&D:E

Wmk2:ok:

[multime]

Dear Wally
Aptly named as in one other thread with a pointless agenda.

One more drink Wally (Mods take notice)
Unacceptable..?
Cheers
M:ok:

[Guttn]

Very many good posts here. Sorry I`m not in this section that often, but I will be. Promise!

Firstly, I agree with 777sms regarding where airmaship first comes from; your immediate family. It`s the impressions you get from them, and the way you are tought to interact with others that is a founding pillar.

Secondly, airmanship cannot be bought. It has to be experienced. It has nothing to do with handling of aircraft (unless you are able to consistantly improve your performance - i.e. student pilots). It has a lot to do with being well ahead of your aircraft. Anticipating what is going to happen, and what to do if the worst thing happens. Listening to your aircraft (can still be done, despite of all the automation and fancy digitalized cockpits).

Airmaship has something to do with knowing when you are getting too hot with your flying. Stepping back just enough to get back to the big picture. That`s probably one of the most difficult things to do:eek:. Eat a big slice of that humble pie now and then. It might not taste good there and then, but it grows on you.

Last, and not least by any count, every pilot on every level of experience should at least once every 3 years or so have the opportunity to sit down with TG when he reflects on his career. You might actually learn something from someone else`s experiences. THAT`s airmanship:}

[Wally Mk2]

That's fine 'Multi', you will make a good Mod one day, now go away & practice, shouldn't be too hard for you seeing as you have the makings for one.
Oh BTW you did make a good comment on the 'Airmanship' thread but I guess not everyone is perfect hey?:E


Wmk2