Job or linetraining with A320 typerating and 350 hours?? [Archive]

peterdo

15th Dec 2008, 20:07

Well first of all, how can you know that. Have you tryed, because I know several who has and they got a job imediate! Their companys just don´t need pilots right now soe i was just wondering if anyone knew something more.
And just because you don´t wanna pay for anything, you don´t have to tell me what is stupid.
And what if I knew someone wich could get me in a job if i just had 100 hrs on type....??????? Would it not be stupid not to ask in this forum where to get it??????

Save the bitter comments for someone else..

peterdo

15th Dec 2008, 20:13

Because I thought maybe other could do it cheaper and even maybe with a contract signed to it (like Air Asia did/ or does).

I don´t think Eagle jet does anything but "pure" line-training.

joaocaracol

15th Dec 2008, 20:22

Well,

Try Alteon, ATP, Karmaaviation, Global Pilot Training, Pegasus, CAE (several airlines work with them) and all the TRTO that have line training programs associated with the Type Rating courses (there are several).

Best regards,
Joao Caracol

peterdo

15th Dec 2008, 21:28

Thank you very much Joao.

peterdo

15th Dec 2008, 22:59

In don´nt know who you think you are or how stupid you are cause i just wrote that i would´nt be asking these qustions if it were not for a promise i´ve been given regarding a job. Only requirment were to get 100 hrs. SO if I can get the job and I have the money so I have the possibility of buying the 100 hrs, then why you don´t just stay out of this discussion and let other people help each other. We don´t need a bitter *** like you.

PAMPA2000

16th Dec 2008, 05:03

Peterdo, I know back in July/August a company in India, (Indigo), was hiring pilots on the A320 with 0 time on the plane. I don't now what the other requirements are, such as Commencial JeT PIC time, ttl time, etc. but I do know that they were accepting pilots with just the type only and no time. The flew you on the right seat for @ 100 hrs and then you move over to the left. Once again, I don't know if you have to have a certain amount of previous experience, etc. (I imagine you do).
Anyway, you would probably need to go via a broker, if you do, stay away from a guy named Blue Peterson and his company named Airline Design Beaureau. (they'll screw you!!, big time!!).
I know this for a fact, some of my friends, r still there, and they hate him. But, they didn't know this guy was such an As#%ole!!!.
There is a recruiting company called something like "happy landings", I think, do a google search, I don't have any references though.
Hopefully this way you can keep your money, (I understand u already have the type and 350 hrs, correct?), r ur 350hrs PIC? or SIC?, if it's PIC, there are other options, better then India!
Good Luck.

peterdo

16th Dec 2008, 06:57

It´s not PIC i´m afraid, but thank you very much for the help. I will look in to it:-)

Best regards

DeltaT

16th Dec 2008, 08:08

350hrs min for Virgin Nigeria...

mierda

16th Dec 2008, 08:50

How sad. Having to pay to work.
So you are going to try and get a job based on your spending power, and not on your ability. Have you got any self respect?

VNA Lotus

16th Dec 2008, 11:18

Whatever...people think, they pay, they'll work.
but they have to pass all selection. so...

mech500

16th Dec 2008, 11:35

I personally wouldn't consider paying for line training because i simply do not have that kind of money - but i've been doing some research on this and i cant understand why people always respond negatively to line training enquiries?

Is line training not the same as ''operational TRAINING on a twin-jet'' and therefore not work?

Sure the airline will profit from having you fly its passengers but then again my local flight school makes a profit from renting PA28's.

Cheers

Atlanta-Driver

16th Dec 2008, 12:00

Could be a good idea just to approach some companies directly, who knows they might even offer you a job. If not, then you might be able to make a deal with a company and get your line training for free.

The unfortunate state of the aviation industry in Europe and around the world keeps just getting worse. Paying for training, paying for type rating, paying for line training, paying for travel to and from home, paying for accomodation while not getting paid a salary or expenses. Where will it end and what will be next?

I can fully understand the desperation of young pilots wanting to make it into big jets immediately, but personally I am not or would not be willing to dish out thousands of euros for something that does not guarantee me a position and even then it's a no thank you for paying for training. Remeber that no position is guaranteed.

Obtaining a type rating, line training differences training guarantees nothing even if you have a promise for a job afterwards. Economy changes and crewing needs with it. A company that needs 10 crews today might be laying off people tomorrow. Don't get offended by me asking but, what happens to your promise of a job then?

With 300 hours some total time and perhaps a 100000 euro training for a CPL behind, it is time for a reality check. There are hundreds of unemployed and experienced pilots that have more time on a localizer back course approach than that 350 hours. They have multiple types on their licenses and probably heavy jet experience. They are after the same jobs as you are. Personally I would be very careful of investing money into a promise, unless you have a contract stating a position upon having the time in type with associated clause for payment of the training after joining the ranks of your company and in case of default from the potential employer, the payment in full of your line training.

Reading some of the comments on this thread, I'd tone down the rethoric a bit. A few of thos contributing to this thread might not agree with your idea about paying for line training, but that does not make the person stupid or does it?

olicana

16th Dec 2008, 15:54

I enjoy reading Pprune and have done for some time, I like the discussion and sometimes heated debates but really don`t care for the disgraceful remarks above.
Please have some decorum and stop using the terminology you have graced this thread with MR Adverse-bump

mierda

16th Dec 2008, 16:24

I am sorry but I have to agree with adverse bump. I would love to know what passengers would have to say on a flight if the first officer did a pa explaning that in actual fact he is the highest paying costumer in the aircraft.

If I went to a doctor and before doing things to me I find out that he is paying to be there because no one would give him a job I would run a mile.

I work for an FTO and recently I have met lots of low hour pilots that payed for type rating + line hours and they where all kicked out when they reached the hours they had payed for. One of the pilots had spent over £130000 on his Licences type ratings etc. Is that normal? How is he going to pay that money back? even if someone hires him he wouldnt even be able to pay the loan back and live. Not even with a £40000 salary.

Think about it in a logical way why would an airline keep you and start paying you a salary after you have done the hours, when there is another dic£ behind you willing to do same as you? The airline s will keep doing this practice as long as there i people like you.

How would you be able to enjoy flying your jet knowing that you are paying for it?

I think such practices should be illegal, and it wont be until an accident occurs.

I would love to know what long established captains have to say about people paying for jet hours?

FrankAbagnale

16th Dec 2008, 16:37

Why is everyone so hormonal here?:rolleyes:

adverse-bump

16th Dec 2008, 17:24

probably as this kind of activity is degrading terms and conditions for those that follow.

exactly what it is doing! and if idiots like this guy who started the tread dont stop, pilots will be no more than bus drivers in the coming years.

RoyHudd

16th Dec 2008, 17:59

Relax people....the unfolding economic disaster will obviate the need for airlines to seek pay-to-fly victims...all those cheapskate companies will soon go to the wall. And sadly so will some of the better airlines too.

There are many bigger problems to get stuck into than this issue.

And before the accusations of arrogance start to fire, I have full sympathy with those trying to join this fascinating and sometimes fun profession...I have never known a worse time. Good luck to all, and to those thinking of paying to line-fly, please think again.

scallaghan

16th Dec 2008, 20:55

Hi

I am just finishing my IR and then the MCC around a full time living to avoid those loans and will not be paying for a self funded type rating unless it was a exceptional circustance and a firm job offer. So I will be back to work once finished to my proper job and getting that needed experience.

After working in another industry for 10 years and knowing how employers can take advantage; I have been very careful with everything and allowing for a position to be able to walk away if needed from any training provider I was unhappy with.

I dont understand why employers should ask newly qualified or perhaps more experienced pilots to fund type ratings when that individual spent out on the initial training.

If people stopped paying, then these businesses would have to address the issue as it would impact the business eventually some way down and allocate funding to staff training as in many other businesses.

Wouldnt expect some other professional jobs to ask for 20/30K ontop of someones initial outlay when salaries and perhaps rostering locations impact a part of that persons financials and subsqent loan repayments.

I suspect the integrated providers will have student funding issues now and perhaps those employers asking for type ratings to be paid will realise access to funding will be a problem the hard way.

Good luck finding work on the airbus

JJflyer

16th Dec 2008, 21:12

Thats the thing Scallaghan. If people only stopped paying. But they wont. There is allways some that have the ability to dish out large amounts of money to get "there" quicker.

We owe the decline of the industry to the various scoundrels such as MOL with his b.astardised version of Southwest Airlines and others of his ilk. Not to forget the beancounters that are happy to see people paying to work to maximise profits.

Some really good comments here http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/348914-how-has-life-airline-pilot-really-changed.html about how the industry has changed.

As for where to get line training and pay for it, I am sorry but I do not have a clue.

Phileas Fogg

16th Dec 2008, 21:41

Be a little bit wary of that Air Asia deal:

I got sight of the T & C's fairly recently, I might have the figures wrong but as I recall one signs for 1,000 hours for $10,000 and after a certain number of hours one receives a pittance of a salary.

Quite a good deal by the sound of it, many will be thinking that they won't stay for 1,000 hours, they will 'P' Off after a few hundred hours upon the offer of a 'proper' job.

But what I read was that one deposits $10,000 with Air Asia, no mention of what it is a deposit for, and then month by month one also pays to Air Asia the $$$ for the hours they flew during the previous month.

That $10,000 deposit has to be to a security that one will stay for the full 1,000 hours and if one 'escapes' after 100, 200, 300, 400 or 500 hours etc. then one may expect to forfeit one's $10,000 deposit thus, please, build this in to your costings of such a venture.

easy307

16th Dec 2008, 22:18

quote "I think such practices should be illegal, and it wont be until an accident occurs."

Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A320, G-DHJZ (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_2008/airbus_a320__g_dhjz.cfm)

JJflyer

17th Dec 2008, 06:51

easy307

Thanks for the very informative link. I think the accident report says it all. Those having a thick wallet should meet the same standards upon selection for these pay for training "Cadet" programs as those who are joining as employees. It is apparent that either the screening, training or both where not thorough enough to weed out the problems.

Unfortunetely the FTO's and airlines alike work with making money in mind and someone offering a nice stash of cash might just be able to slip through the system unnoticed until it is too late. I was not familiar with this accident, but I have gone through the report carefully. My threshold of taking over from the FO has just reduced a tid bit.

Before I get ripped apart, I am not saying that those that have been selected by the airline as employees are all good, far from it. I have flown with people that should not be flying period and I have flown with some really excellent guys that had done their type on their own and where then hired as "Cadet Pilots" yet didnt pay for their line training. I've also flown with those who did pay for the whole "Experience" some of whom again where really motivated and sharp and wanted nothing more than get a job.

mierda

17th Dec 2008, 19:16

I think we should all start some sort of a union to try and stop these practices

There is another interesting thread about an incident where someone was paying for jet time http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/354969-pay-fly-wannabee-damages-thomas-cook-airbus.html

I-AINC

17th Dec 2008, 21:52

I'm agree with mierda. The aircraft needs pilots to fly --> without pilots it can't fly --> if an aircraft is on the ground, the airline starts to loss money --> if the airline doesn't get money from the pilot (SSTR + LT), they MUST change method of employment and contract... I think it's very easy to think about, but hard to apply due to wannabee's full of cash :mad:

VNA Lotus

17th Dec 2008, 21:57

The most interesting job today is not paying for working oups sorry I mean airline pilot but make people to pay, as a head of FTO.
a good plan, is take a FI course, get experience.
Then take a IRI/CRI course, get experience.
Open your own flying school, then a FTO and teach CPL/IR.
Make money and pay your TR on 320
Then open a TRTO for TR320 because you need before a rating to teach others.
Then take a 737 rating and open a TRTO for 737... etc

You will fly, and live with money from others.
:}

fadedfootpaths

18th Dec 2008, 02:28

VNA Lotus if life was only that simple:D:D:D:D

:ugh::ugh:

Phileas Fogg

18th Dec 2008, 09:49

Listen guys, some of you:

In the 'old' days airlines, pilots, were in the main staffed by pilots who had perhaps learnt to fly during WWII. In those days travelling by air was for the priveliged minority and the cost of air fares reflected this.

Times moved on, inclusive tour holidays commenced etc, new airlines sprang up, charter operators, operators had previously provided pilot training at the operator's expense and this was continued.

To bring it up to the current time many, many, many people are travelling by air, over recent years, with the introduction of low cost carriers, the number of people travelling by air has escalated thus the requirement for pilots has escalated also, only 20 or 30 years ago a pilot may expect to occupy much, if not all, of his career on turbo-props, now young guys are walking straight in on to nice shiny jets.

BUT, the only reason why so many people are travelling is because the air fares have been reduced to such a level that allows them to and it is these very people that have created the jobs for the pilots, they wouldn't otherwise be travelling, perhaps they cannot otherwise afford to, thus if the air fares increase they stop travelling and the requirement for pilots stops also and this applies to non low costs carriers also, they have been forced to find themselves in competition with LCC's.

So there we have it, increase the air fares to incorporate for pilot training costs = fewer passengers = fewer pilot jobs.

Sciolistes

18th Dec 2008, 10:13

VNA Lotus,

I see the Vietnamese entrepreneurial spirit is particularly strong in you :)

Foggy,
So there we have it, increase the air fares to incorporate for pilot training costs = fewer passengers = fewer pilot jobs.
Quite!

VNA Lotus

18th Dec 2008, 10:28

Irony of course :}
sure life's not simple!
but it was to show that head of training etc have a better situation...

Aerospace101

18th Dec 2008, 11:18

It is apparent that either the screening, training or both where not thorough enough to weed out the problems.

Its called CONFLICT OF INTEREST, where the FTO did the 2nd time sim assessment for the student, not the airline..........:=

JJflyer

18th Dec 2008, 18:29

Pilot training costs are a VERY small part of the operational expenses of a company in comparison to other expenses companies have. The costs are calculated in the seat/mile costs as it is and the pay for training schemes are just a way for some operators to boost their economy.

Phileas Fogg

18th Dec 2008, 19:31

Whoever suggested that pilot training is the only area where airlines, particularly LCC's, endeavour to keep their outgoings to a minimum to compete with the competion and, ultimately, stay in business?

They will 'wheel and deal' to negotiate the best prices for aircraft leasing, maintenance, insurance etc. right down to ball point pens, I've even observed A4 paper being used on both sides before going for recycling. They'll even have premium rate telephone numbers that goes some way, if not all the way, to paying the wages of the staff that answer those phones, the inflight sales mark-ups probably pay the cabin crew salaries.

But then comes along a 100 of few fresh faced pilots applying for a job that they are not qualified (type rated) for and they, some of them, expect the red carpet to be rolled out. 'Oh, come on in young man, sure we'll spend a bucket load of our hard earned revenue training you to progress your chosen career, can't understand why we didn't think of it before'. :)

perceval

18th Dec 2008, 21:19

Travelling by bus is cheap : Never heard of a bus driver having to pay to get into a bigger bus .
Bad enough to get bad paychecks when you start , paying on top ....hmmm ?
The thomas cook story ...well to be fair , there has been accidents in aviation before that one , that doesn't say much about the value or lack of of paid line training .
One thing for sure :( Try it at home ) , friends and relatives were shocked to learn about current practices of some airlines .Most didn't feel particularly happy at the idea of being guinea pigs for the low costs airlines training dept .
The question remains : Are you more or less motivated when you've paid for it ? (Less fear of results if there's no job in that cie at the end ).Just thoughts , no judgement .We should have all stopped that system when it started in the 90's , now we're all :mad:

Phileas Fogg

18th Dec 2008, 21:36

A qualified bus driver wouldn't need to incur any licensing costs to move up to a bigger bus, a PCV licence, certainily in UK, qualifies the individual to operate any bus.

portsharbourflyer

19th Dec 2008, 16:55

While you all scream about these pay to fly schemes are degrading conditions, the main thing which makes these schemes atttactive to candidates is the fact that FI wages are awful and the average turboprop job has a three year bond with a salary of about 22000 a year. A 320 or 737 FO with 500 hours on type on the whole will be earning a decent salary. So for some individuals the pay cut you would take to instruct full time in order to get a tp job (paying terrible wages with a long term bond) means that paying for a rating and line training is actually the more financially viable option.

I don't necessarily support these pay to fly shemes, but also consider that if you go down the FI route and do the IRI (removal of no applied instruments restriction) and MEI upgrades you can easily spend 15000k on FI ratings (6000 for the FI (R), 30 hours p1 MEP time, 5000 (hour build in the US rates), IRI upgrade 1500, MEI upgrade 2000), then the gap between a rating and the FI route starts to narrow.

perceval

19th Dec 2008, 19:51

purely financially , that's not untrue (for europe at least) but the difference is between making oneself employable and actually pay to perform a Job that the operator needs to fill (by law) . That's been said time and time again , but the main disadvantage of the pay to fly scheme is that it reduces the number of jobs available .
And doing flight instruction , GA , reg.turboprop isn't just about making it eventually to the airlines , It's about enjoying good flying (the bit between take off and landing ) while you can . In a way it's a bit sad (personnal opinion) to go straight from school to an airliner (They ARE very automated and you don't see as much at the end of the day ) . Besides money and big things , new pilots should look forward to move slowly up the ladder , learning their trade and gazing at those marvelous landscapes beneath them .
I guess I missed a meeting ...

Sciolistes

20th Dec 2008, 00:05

Excellent point Portsharbourflyer, in many ways the bottom line has never been so attractive, the old self-improver route must have cost fortune in time and money.

Just a quick question, when did SSFIRs become the norm without any guarantee of a job offer?

Phileas Fogg

20th Dec 2008, 18:14

There has never been a guarantee of anything in life, except that we are all going to die. and any organisation that 'guarantees' a job, particularly in such a volatile industry as aviation, is merely using it as a marketing expression to sell the product.

scooby79

21st Dec 2008, 09:37

You'r an idiot so the only advice I will give is go for it but dont go with the cheapest you can find as airlines will see that as inferior training. You need to find the bigget waste of money and go for that one, airlines appreciate that and it WILL get you a job. :ugh:You are doing this industry so much good, well done if you go ahead with it. Loads of jobs about at the moment and not many people with type ratings so if you have 100 hours paid line training your in for sure. Good Luck :D

Mister Geezer

21st Dec 2008, 16:20

Loads of jobs about at the moment and not many people with type ratings so if you have 100 hours paid line training your in for sure.

Loads of jobs and not many people with type ratings??? Sorry but time to smell the coffee and join the real world!

Ladies and Gentlemen... the fact is that in the present climate there are plenty of people with experience who are type rated and the pool of available jobs is getting smaller.

Paying for a type rating always carries a risk and that risk is that after you pay for your training, there is no job or you don't get through the training.

At present that risk is as big as it has ever been!

Self sponsored type ratings can work out when the market is good but you will be more of a tangible asset to an airline that pays for your rating regardless of aircraft type. Lets imagine, you have two people that go through a course and one pays and the other is funded by the airline and suddenly the airline needs to make cutbacks - guess who will go first assuming they both performed at the same standard? Yep.... the chap who paid for their own course.