Aviation mechanic shortage

[asacrj]

I just want to know how bad is the aircraft mechanic shortage. I work for a regional airline here in the US and we are so short of mechanic it is unbelievable. the bosses basically beg people to work overtime every day just to cover the shifts.
With all the airlines closing shop or downsizing you would think that finding mechanics would be easy but it is not. Just to give an example, a regional airline in atlanta just got a contract to fly about 25 CRJ900 for Delta and they need about 40 mechanics. So far they could only find very few.
Is Europe also going through the same shortage?

[unstable load]

How much does the job pay where you are?

That may have a lot to do with whether you can find decent guys.
I don't work in the US, but have heard that wages are not the best in the industry.

[shane 1962]

I work for a large charter airline in the U.K. and of the 17 engineers at our base 13 of them are over 45. I think that is a worry for the future considering the rate at which the air travel is expanding. Flight International covered this with an editorial on the shortage of engineers and pilots this week. Industry, take note.

[WISENWELL TRAVELLED]

dont forget in Europe/rest of the world(besides USA) mechanics are "unlicenced"....to certify you need to be an "engineer".:ok:

[Rigga]

Don't know how 'well travelled' you are... but in the 27 states of EASA all "mechanics" are A-Licenced and Line Certifiers.
...unless you know different?

[avtech23]

That's not entirely true. It is not a requirement within my company (UK145) to hold an 'A' licence to work as a mechanic. There are a handful of mechanics we have that are employed without a Cat A, the only difference being they cannot sign for anything so they are effectively just a 'pair of hands'.

[Capot]

but in the 27 states of EASA all "mechanics" are A-Licenced and Line Certifiers.

That's not entirely true.

It's not true at all. While several companies, especially non-UK ones, are beginning to want A licences on their line stations, there are fitters and mechanics working throughout the EU without any EASA AME Licence.

Mind you, it is becoming increasingly true that mechanics, especially contractors, will do themselves a lot of good by obtaining an A Licence (not necessarily a long or very difficult process for most), and then think about going on to a B while working with the A to obtain the documented work record needed.

[SNS3Guppy]

Whatever you want to call it...mechanics in the US are the equivilent of "engineers" elsewhere. In the US an engineer requires a degree...in engineering, and most hold at least a masters or higher...and engineers don't perform work on airplanes. Semantics, and irrelevant.

There's no shortage of mechanics from what I see. We're in the process of letting some 500 go, along with a number of pilots and flight engineers, too.

[glhcarl]

In the US an engineer requires a degree...in engineering, and most hold at least a masters or higher...and engineers don't perform work on airplanes. Semantics, and irrelevant.


While most engineers have degrees, there are many, like myself, that held engeering jobs without formal education. Hands on experience is sometimes worth more than book learing.

[boeing_eng]

In the UK from my perspective (major airline) there is a shortage of skilled labour. This has resulted in recent years in a number of Far Eastern contractors being employed to fill the gap.

Compared to the USA we have a much smaller pool of experienced/skilled staff to draw from. This is partially due to the reduction to almost zero of an aircraft industry and the number of Forces leavers drying-up. In addition, most youngsters perceive any job which involves getting your hands dirty as "un-cool" If you factor in the number in the industry due to retire in the next 5 – 10 years there are serious problems ahead!

[ferrydude]

In some states, one cannot call oneself "engineer" without obtaining the PE credentials. Self taught need not apply

[Rigga]

My apologies to those with, what I term as, "Fitters" working in 145 hangar environments. I do acknowledge your jobs and indeed expertise in what you do. I was of course refering mainly to Line operations where Part 66 LMCM's are Certifying Mechanics (in the EASA sense!)

Boeing Eng - All we need to do is to swap "UK" into your missive on the shortfalls of recruiting new blood the USA.

[SNS3Guppy]

Hands on experience is sometimes worth more than book learing.


I'd say hands-on experience is always worth more than book learning, but one has to start somewhere.

[asacrj]

How much does the job pay where you are?

In the US, you are right, we dont really get paid well for what we do. However, in this economy with everybody else cutting jobs and laying people off it is not a bad idea to consider aviation maintenance as a career.

[glhcarl]

In some states, one cannot call oneself "engineer" without obtaining the PE credentials. Self taught need not apply


Having worked in ten (10) different countries (states) and at least that many different States I never had anyone question my qualifications or see my credentials. I was there to tell them how to fix their aircraft and thats all they cared about.

[BAe146s make me cry]

In the USA all Aircraft Maintenance Staff are refered to as Mechanics or AMTs. Not just the A&Ps, even the IA's. Simply a terminology thing, nothing else.

Indeed the issues at hand absolutely are the drop in general standards & the shortage of 'decent guys' refered to by Unstable Load. Where I presently work, we have a few B1s with little comprehension of a 6
bladed VP propellor and a couple of B2s that cannot troubleshoot a
cabin lighting system let alone an A/P snag -so yes, the EASA system
is still no guarantee of a decently trained or experienced type rated LAE/Mechanic.

Note: Falsifying your PER (Maintenance Record) does not help, at all.

Not many people really want to undertake the basic training and depth of work experience (see Boeing Engs comments) for precisely the reasons stated - its a massive investment, and in comparision not as rewarding as other careers given the responsibility.

At present, in Europe there are at least 2 impending court cases, Helios(Greece) & Spanair(Spain) where certifying personnel have followed
procedures (As nearly all of us do) yet find themselves now indicted.

Just what example is that setting and what do the NAA's, EASA or ICAO do to actually enhance an SMS? SFA...

BAe146??? :{:{:{
www.alae.org (http://www.alae.org) & www.airengineers.org (http://www.airengineers.org)

[WELLUNG]

I have seen the standard of workmanship in mro`s in the USA and around the world as a tech rep...........
I wouldnt let 99% of usa "A&P MECHANICS" repair my bike....
common sense seemed to be missing!!
Perhaps thats why the money in USA is ****e...?:ok:

[BAe146s make me cry]

Wellung

Many non-FAA LAE's readily sign up to that perception of the average FAA A&P Mechanic. Its true there are some real rednecks (As EASA Part 66 can increasingly confirm) BUT there are also a great number of highly experienced, knowledgeable, diligent & competent qualified FAA AMTs.

BAe146???:{:{:{

[forget]

BAe, and others. Don't waste your time with Wellung; he's a prize prat. This was his today's comment on the Lufthansa Constellation restoration thread in Aviation History and Nostalgia.

excuse me while I vomit........get a life girls.

Just the sort of guy you need in the hangar. :mad:

PS. Wellung and Wizen Weltravelled are one and the same. :hmm:

[nodrama]

Who cares what they are called...mechanics, engineers....we all know what we are talking about here.

In the UK, I see the shortage of engineers being due to relatively low wages when compared to other industries (considering the shift hours being put in and responsibility held) and the length of time and expense it takes to obtain an EASA pt66 licence.

[WISENWELL TRAVELLED]

"Forget said...
PS. Wellung and Wizen Weltravelled are one and the same. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif

WRONG!...Guess its time we forgot forget:}:ok::D

[WOTME?]

I thought we became technicians when we became part of EASA.
Just looked at my licence & it just says Aircraft Maintenance Licence.
WTF so long as the beer chits go in!;)

[asacrj]

I have seen the standard of workmanship in mro`s in the USA and around the world as a tech rep...........
I wouldnt let 99% of usa "A&P MECHANICS" repair my bike....
common sense seemed to be missing!!
Perhaps thats why the money in USA is ****e...?


In the US we have ten of thousand of commercial flights everyday and thousand of privately own aircrafts, more than anywhere in world, and yet enjoy one of the safest aviation system, in the world. Guess what, all these aircrafts are maintained by dedicated mechanics like me, and we do it with pride and dedication beside the low pay, long hour and lack of respect. So please, the topic here is mechanic shortage not who is better between A/P and B1/B2.
Btw I also worked for a British MRO in the past in Essex.....

[forget]

asacrj, Relax, the Mods also took a dim view of WellDung's 'contributions'. He's gone, along with his alter ego Wisenwel Shrivelled. :hmm:

[Alwaysairbus]

There is definately a shortage of engineers, technicians and mechanics coming up. It has been on the cards and talked about for years. The airlines know this. This is why they have pressured the CAA/JAR/EASA into the A and B licenses. Work that was previously carried out by mechs/tech and signed for by A,C ad X licensed engineers, which added another level of safety as an "independant" inspection was carried out before certifying, is now completed by A, B1 or B2 people mostly working alone (on the line at least). This reduces the numbers of staff considerably but also in some ways removes another level of safety.

As mentioned earlier the average age of maintenance staff in the UK is relatively higher than say 10/20 years ago with most airlines not running apprenticeships so the youngsters don't get a chance to join the industry even if they really want to.

As for the argument of A&P versus B1/B2, i hold both A&P and part 66 B1/B2. There are pros and cons to both. The practical exam for the A and P is an excellent idea and not as easy as most people think. The part 66 theory exams on the other hand go completely over the top (in fact my module 5 digital techniques was more in depth on fibre optics than what BT engineers go through!) and could do with being updated to real world aircraft and maintenance techniques. The A and P theory exams on the other hand are relatively easier compared with part66 modules (helped by the answers being published) and not going into anywhere near the depth of part 66, but then a lot of what's in part66 which is irrelevant to day to day maintenance... when was the last time someone opened up a VHF transceiver to check the superhet IF on the line??

The problem with the A and P is that you are a "jack of all trades and master of none" as there's no differentiation between electrics/avionics/engines and structures There are very few people who feel comfortable with all these disciplines, myself included, as there's always a natural tendency to drift towards either the mechanical or electrical trades. Unfortuately the FAA don't address this problem and it seems EASA are drifting towards this way of certifying, again under the pressure of airlines to help fire fight the lack of trained mechs/techs/engineers.

Having worked with many A and P engineers over the years in the US they could seemlessly certify to EASA part66 standards but obviously but that is only my experience!

The days of 100's of apprentices being trained are long gone.

[asacrj]

boeingchap

What exactly is your point here???

[Litebulbs]

I was told by a senior BA Engineering rep, that the average age of engineering staff at LGW is 45 and at LHR, it is 55. Not a good state to be in, but moving 50 more engineers from LGW to LHR may bring the average down to 54.5!

[WOTME?]

I think the difference is the FAA go public with maintenance transgressions.
In the UK the CAA has commercial interests in mind,so it does not go public.

[forget]

BOEINGCHAP This is a place to say your views....

It would help if your views were written in understandable English, rather than code. :hmm:

[Frogga]

I've been looking seriously at becoming a licenced engineer, but the length of time needed and the things to complete training are so complicated and time consuming that I've elected to join the RAF as an engineer, with the chance to go into avionics aswell. Seems a good choice, with excellent training and good career prospects, the civilian world seems very bizarre in a way with EASA stamping its authority wherever it can and causing people problems!

[WOTME?]

Many an EASA engineer/technician/mechanic/fitter/whatever else it can be called started in the RAF.Good choice.

[EGT Redline]

I've been looking seriously at becoming a licenced engineer, but the length of time needed and the things to complete training are so complicated and time consuming that I've elected to join the RAF as an engineer, with the chance to go into avionics aswell. Seems a good choice, with excellent training and good career prospects, the civilian world seems very bizarre in a way with EASA stamping its authority wherever it can and causing people problems!

The length of time, training and examinations required are there for a reason - to ensure only the very best become Licensed Aircraft Engineers. Well that's how it used to be but with the advent of EASA and the inconsistencies in the various National Aviation Authorities ability to interpret and implement rules and regulations, it seems anybody can get a licence nowadays.

I wish you a long and successful career in the RAF but do not fool yourself into thinking the training and career progression is good. To put things into perspective, I work alongside a civilian apprentice trained LAE who has enough type ratings on his licence to see him through to retirement. He is pulling in over £50k basic for his troubles and is just 25 years of age. I'm ex RAF and I can tell you that you have to stay in for an entire career and reach the dizzy heights of FS or WO to get anywhere near the level of responsibility/authority he holds or the pay he commands. If you are switched on and have a strong desire to succeed, you will be forever held back in the forces.

[Engineer]

Agree with EGT you will waste your time on fast jets and when you leave you will still need to qualify for the EASA requirement with one year in a civil aircraft environment :uhoh:

[Litebulbs]

EGT redline.

The bad thing about the 25 year old that you know, who is earning (well, being paid!) £50K is that he has reached his salary cap, unless he makes Senior Manager level. OK, contracting gives more potential to have ready cash, but then full time has the other benefits too. Sideways moves into tech services etc, get rid of shift work, but the pay does not go up. Where I am, two promotions equate to £4K and then it is behind a desk and that £2K is definitely not worth it! Market rate has removed incremental scales, as you have to treat everybody the same, to be able to attract people with the right qualifications. No other qualifications count towards pay because you do not need them to do your job.

There are big problems within our industry because it is hard work to pass the exams but you will never be a millionaire fixing aeroplanes. I am not halfway through my career yet, but I will be probably working Christmas Day nights for most of the rest of it!

[asacrj]

what it says,thats my point.
Draw your own conclusions and chill out.
This is a place to say your views....and if you dont like it,dont use it.


Ok I'm getting really lost here. I thought the subject was mechanic shortage.
Well since you are much more knowledgeable than me, would please explain to me what the alaska and american airlines story has to do with this topic.
Please, do say your views. However, It will be nice to know what your views are about this thread.

[Blacksheep]

...its a massive investment, and in comparision not as rewarding as other careers given the responsibility.Given the time and effort needed to acquire the licence, endorsed with enough significant type ratings to command the £50k that one poster has mentioned, any basic Cost-Benefit Analysis would reject aircraft maintenance as a career.

In my own case, had I invested exactly the same amount of time and effort in another career I would by now be a doctor, dentist, chartered accountant or a partner in a law firm and would consider a salary of £50k to be laughable.

The problem in getting enough people with the right ability and dedication is that the job doesn't pay enough to justify the investment. As long as mechanics, technicians or licensed engineers - whatever we choose to call ourselves - are regarded in the same light as the man who fixes our boiler or rips us off after tinkering with our car, we'll remain at the bottom of the chain.

Perhaps we should travel to work in suits, wear white dustcoats instead of overalls at work, then call ourselves Independent Technical Advisors?

[bizdev]

The industry has been predicting a shortage of Engineers for the past 12 years, but for a variety of reasons it just has not happened - yet. The reasons for this are numurous but one of the main factors is the maintenance programmes for new aircraft i.e. A&C Checks need less manhours (MSG3 Maintenance Programmes and aircraft built with maintenance in mind = less manhours), plus the frequency/periodicity of the Checks are required less often compared to "Classic" types. This has masked the impending cliff edge and has probably lulled the industry into thinking "what shortage" (Crying Wolf too often). But it is heading our way very fast now.:}

Bizdev

[forget]

BOEINGCHAP. forgot..or what ever your name is... nasty attitude you have! maybe if you had not had such attitude your missus wouldnt have left you...eh?? yes old son........I know you. :uhoh:

BOEINGCHAP, Stop wasting people's time with your pointless drivel. You've got nothing to contribute here.

(Could it be that WellDung, Wisenwel Shrivelled and BOEINGCHAP are all one.:bored:)

PS. I checked with 'missus' of 40 years as she was having breakfast. 'No complaints'. ;)

[Alwaysairbus]

Biz, Totally agree.

It's ok for the airlines that can afford to replace their fleets every few years but for users of 20+ year old A320's there's a lot of work involved.

We always used to say that the 'A320 will be the Tristar of the future' and the from what i've seen that's coming true. (and we all remember them don't we??)

I remember the 747's coming out of London Airways hangar TBJ in nearly new condition after Major checks. I now see A330's coming out after C checks with next to nothing being done to them and normally in far worse condition than before they went in.

Not sure what the A330 and 777 will be like in 20+ years after half a dozen C checks but at least it should hopefully keep us all employed....

[NutLoose]

Blacksheep Quote:
...its a massive investment, and in comparision not as rewarding as other careers given the responsibility.
Given the time and effort needed to acquire the licence, endorsed with enough significant type ratings to command the £50k that one poster has mentioned, any basic Cost-Benefit Analysis would reject aircraft maintenance as a career.

In my own case, had I invested exactly the same amount of time and effort in another career I would by now be a doctor, dentist, chartered accountant or a partner in a law firm and would consider a salary of £50k to be laughable.



Look at it this way, you are almost a qualified gynecologist,
only the holes you have to try to work in are often smaller and further away from the task in hand, and 99% of the time it probably smells better. :ok::O

On a serious note, yes there is a shortage and one thing driving it is the reduction in the size of the RAF etc..... when I left the RAF and did my licences in the early 80's it still had engineering capabilities of a decent size, with that getting smaller and smaller there is a lack of suitable engineers coming onto the market from those sources and the Civil sector has never done anything to redress the problem, far from it they have gone the opposite direction... and it will only get worse.

[vs69]

You might as well be a gynecologist for all the times you will be left feeling a tw@t.......
I love my job, I'm fairly early on in my career though but still feel the gap in earnings between us and flight deck crew could do with closing.
As is often mentioned in these kind of debates, whenever we fit a part and sign for it our name is against that in the aircraft records and so the responsibility is carried long after you get in your car and drive home at the end of a shift, does the pay for a certifying engineer truly reflect this? I suppose the difference with pilots is that they were able to achieve solidarity in the form of BALPA or equivalent, now what if there was a union for licensed aircraft engineers that had the same pulling power........
(Before anyone points out the ALAE, yes I am a member)
The point I am trying to make is (in a round the houses way) make it worthwhile for people to devote all the time and effort to get qualified, in terms of money and respect, then maybe more young talent will want to go down the aircraft maintenance route.

By the way I was not trying to spark an 'us and them' debate ref the pilots pay, I dont have enough of a chip on my shoulder (yet!) to take away any credit due for the drivers, I mean without them breaking them we wouldnt be fixing them!

[shane 1962]

Most kids leaving school now want to earn 30K right away doing I.T. jobs etc. The thought of doing an apprentiship on half that for 3 years and doing shift work puts 'em off a bit. I might be bias but i've been in a/c maintenance for 30 years and i still have the buzz now as i did when i first got into it.

[Miles Gustaph]

Having just recently worked with some "highly experienced" American Fitters/Mechanics/Un-licensed chaps, I'd say that the market drying up for them isn't a bad thing.

The posts of this thread high-light the confusion in the States with regard to qualifications and certification of work... goodness what will happen if they had to implement modern working practices and ensure the standards of the people that they are employing to certify aircraft.

[Stevedornier]

I find it so ironical when you say a''shortage"'!!! has any one looked out for us guys here in Africa and find what great experience and expertise guys got??
Well,think twice!!!!!!!!!!!Im one of them who leave alone complain of low salary wages but looking for the job itself!!!! with 6yrs of heavy maintanance,Aeronautical engineering cert,Kenyan licence in both Airframe ,turboprop and gas turbine engines,type courses in Germany,and still i cant afford to buy myself a car!!! what a pity!!! then if you need a garret man or a good mechanic,write to me i get you myself and i wount complain much !!!Job first!!:=:=:sad::=:=

[aquamon]

Yes, the job placement for ame's is pretty much tied to present world economic exploitation & nationality discrimination...

Really, I wish there was a shortage!

Don't hold your breath Stevedornier, it will never happen.

I passed all section L exams in one sitting last century and am still contemplating easa part-66 conversion. This is all baloney.

You may have a better chance trying the Australian migration process, points thing.

[chasb441]

I have worked in the industry for 30+ years, some 20+ in the RAF. I don't see myself as a 'spare pair of hands!!' as an unlicensed mechanic. In deed I have worked in places as a contractor where LAE’s asked for help and advice on carrying out some tasks on 767 C-checks. This I willing gave and the advice was much appreciated. Experience goes a long way in our industry. Just because I don't have a Licence doesn’t mean I'm clueless!!! As for any shortages world wide - in the EE states I believe the worst is still to come. Anyone entering the industry strives for that magic qualification. Who then carry’s out the '****e' jobs getting their hands dirty, that no one else is willing to do? The 'lowly unlicensed mechanic I guess :ok:

[aquamon]

Check the posts from pilots and see the fooled...

[mono]

Aquamon.

What size a/c do you work on? Surely you should have already converted!?

[sevenforeseven]

"Shortage"? This is being adressed every day with more and more Engineers losing jobs as airlines go bust or cut back on fleet size.:{
There will be no shortage in the next couple of months as the down turn buries it teeth further and further into the jugular!!
Next 5 years are going to be tough.
Hunker down and get ready for the storm.:\

Good luck to all out there, its going to be a very, very tubulent ride.:{

[Masterofnone]

It is hardly surprising that there is a shortage of guys in the civil sector when the pay is so rubbish!

I worked for a company in Sheffield on a fitters wage of 20k, having left the Royal Navy on 34k. I applied for a job at Eurocopter in Oxford, they offered me 22k! 22k in Oxford...a house costs half a mil!!!

I now work as a conny for BAE on 35k with a fraction of the tax! So all the ex-forces guys are going straight back working on similar airframes on a similar wage to before they left instead of taking a 15k pay cut.

I would love to work for a civil sector employer, get the years experience I need and pass the exams to become a B2 engineer but I have a mortgage and a wife and kids! I can earn as much working in Tesco's as the civil sector pays it's fitters!

[Miles Gustaph]

Masterofnone,

I'm sorry that your children and mortgage have stifled your ability to get a B license, most of us who left the military did our exams before we left so we could look after out families and mortgages.

As for the industries attitude of paying fitters poor money, while I appreciate that there are some truly exceptional fitters out there, the industry doesn't have a problem recruiting fitters in general; it needs licensed engineers who can certify there own and the work of the people that work for them, which is reflected in the current situation where license pay is at last starting to go up!

Any fitter who doesn't sit his exams is seriously missing out on the current pay rises, and those that we all know are to come, however it is an individuals choice to not too, but they should hardly complain of being badly done too when a bit of studying and a few exams can get you up to a 100% pay rise.

Masterofnone, it sounds to me that your just another bitter ex forces chap who couldn't be bothered to do his exams and expects the commercial sector to top up your pension.

There are many ex-forces chaps industry who have come out of the military, have done there licenses and are doing well, in fact I would stick my neck out and say that the industry still to a certin extent relays on ex-forces people making the effort to get licenced...

Good luck to you with your contracting, i'm sure the job security in the current economic climate is a comfort, enough to stop you from bothering to put your attitude where your mouth is and sit your trade exams.

[smudgethecat]

Well said sir!:D

[HAWK21M]

In this field.....one has to study/work odd times/hrs/places & be willing to keep learning.

There is a surplus currently of qualified persons due to the Finanicial situation prevailing worldwide.

regds
MEL.

[aquamon]

Nope, haven't converted, it's STILL all baloney to me! As long as the companies have pilots from a saturated pool to fly planes and current insurance, who the hell needs mechanics? The only people that prosper from my licenses is one that advertises UK rated AMEL on their website. I don't get anything out of renewing/converting FOR THEM.

[NutLoose]

Aqua, convert it AND retain your section L, I did and my 2 yrly section L was due renewal....................I was stunned as my cheque was returned, CAA say that if u still need your Section L to do your job alongside your part 66 they WILL NOT CHARGE for the Sect L renewal as you are paying for the 5 yrly 66..........................................


Something for free from the CAA....... gobsmacked!

[aquamon]

Didn't they cut down the renewal period and fee for Part-66 to 2 years?

[NutLoose]

No the part 66 is 5 yrs, the Section L was reduced to 2 yrs when you get Part 66, but then it is free to renew the Section L.

For part 66 see

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/177/PART-66%20rolling%20renewal%2009_10.pdf

[IcePaq]

In the United States, the shortage is not of qualified technicians but rather a shortage qualified technicians who will work for the wages offered.

It's almost like the companies offering these positions are trying to make them non-career positions much like the line service jobs at most major chain FBOs.

I'm sure there are many exceptions but someone with A&P level abilities can easily jump right into making 22.00 a labor hour at a top car dealership with the ability to turn upwards of 100 labor hours in a 40 hour week with 60 hours being average.

[simonchowder]

a+p level abilities? i guess thats 99.999 per cent of the world population then;)

[glad rag]

Guys, can I dip a toe in here and point out I am not licensed.
But having seen some of the guys notes who are studying I was quite surprised at just how little you had to comprehend (note: not fact memorising) about system functions to get the credit!!

For example asked one chap about batteries, got a monologue of facts, then decided to be a bugger and hit him with a simple question about internal resistance-stumped but "I don't need to know that as its not on my sheet" :ugh:

I believe the subjects are not being covered in enough depth.

GR.

[Rigga]

GladRag,

"I believe the subjects are not being covered in enough depth."

You obviously havent realised the true meaning of EASA Regulations yet...

EASA regulations are the remnants of what is left when up to 27 different countries get together and pull their in own directions without coordinated regard for safety or educational necessities.

What remains, to be made into 'regulations', is the lowest standard that all countries will accept - not the highest, nor even the minimum of most peoples thoughts.

[Masterofnone]

Miles Gustaph...

'I'm sorry that your children and mortgage have stifled your ability to get a B license, most of us who left the military did our exams before we left so we could look after out families and mortgages.' - I was medically discharged, didn't plan to leave for another 8 years and therefore sitting the exams would have been pointless as they would have lapsed by the time I left! Next!!

As for the industries attitude of paying fitters poor money, while I appreciate that there are some truly exceptional fitters out there, the industry doesn't have a problem recruiting fitters in general; it needs licensed engineers who can certify there own and the work of the people that work for them, which is reflected in the current situation where license pay is at last starting to go up! - I can't pay my mortgage and support my family on the fitters wage I would have to earn for at least a year to satisfy the experience requirement. I blew my entire medical gratuity subsidising the piss poor wage I was paid in Sheffield while achieving nothing towards my experience as I was stuck in an office job, due to my PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE I was given the job of sorting out the companies technical records department which was going to cause the company's closure by the CAA if I hadn't!

Any fitter who doesn't sit his exams is seriously missing out on the current pay rises, and those that we all know are to come, however it is an individuals choice to not too, but they should hardly complain of being badly done too when a bit of studying and a few exams can get you up to a 100% pay rise. - Since I wasn't given the chance before I left, I could only do it via Licence by post, the materials are pitiful, with entire subjects left uncovered by the course materials! Since I have so far managed to gain no experience that is acceptable to EASA, there isn't much point in just sitting the exams is there?

Masterofnone, it sounds to me that your just another bitter ex forces chap who couldn't be bothered to do his exams and expects the commercial sector to top up your pension. - If you have bothered to read the above, you should now realise this isn't the case!!

There are many ex-forces chaps industry who have come out of the military, have done there licenses and are doing well, in fact I would stick my neck out and say that the industry still to a certin extent relays on ex-forces people making the effort to get licenced... - I agree! I just can't afford the pay drop to satisfy the experience requirement!! I left the company I worked for in Sheffield, they went out of business a year later and the other ex-forces guys there who were desperate to get a licence are now living away from home AGAIN working in Norwich for a pittance just to get the experience of maintaining low tech machines when they already have experience on machines far more advanced!!

Good luck to you with your contracting, i'm sure the job security in the current economic climate is a comfort, enough to stop you from bothering to put your attitude where your mouth is and sit your trade exams. - I don't believe I have a bad attitude, I don't think the world owes me a living that's for sure!! I DO know licenced engineers who I wouldn't want working FOR me, never mind me working for them though!! I know contracting isn't a long term solution, as i'll be on the same sort of wages forever doing it with no career progression, but what are the other options? The exams aren't a problem, I could pass them with my eyes closed, it's the experience requirement that is the obstacle!

[simonchowder]

The worlds certainly conspiring against you in your endevours to become a licensed engineer isnt it? my heart bleeds and yes id agree with previous posters your attidude stinks, typical im afraid of a fair few ex forces types who in my experiance often do believe the world owes them a living.

[Miles Gustaph]

Masterofnone:

Sorry I didn’t realise from your last posts that it was someone else’s fault!

I’m sorry you were medically discharged, obviously when you were medically downgraded they chucked you out the following day meaning that you couldn’t take the opportunity to prepare for the civilian sector by studying for your license… it’s such a disgrace that the military didn’t medically downgrade you, give you a periodic review, maybe a second… obviously they did this is 24hours and not the usual months long process that a responsible person would have used to prepare for the civil sector gee the papers are right the military just don’t look after there men any more… and of course the monthly tax free pension just isn’t any compensation at all…. It’s their entire fault!

…and I mean being forced to take a job that makes you spend your gratuity to live off, it’s terrible, forcing you into a job that won’t allow you to live above your means, that’s not just on for a chap with 12-14 years of aviation military experience…

…and the company that you saved from closure, of course you claimed the aviation technical documentation work in your logbook to get you towards your license didn’t you… you did right? …and you made the effort to get out of the office to get some experience on the aircraft for your logbook didn’t you? You didn’t just waist your experience did you? Or did no one do it for you… because that would be awful! It’s like a guy I use to work with, he couldn’t get the experience he needed in the military so on his leave and on some weekends he had to come to work and get the experience while still doing another job… I wouldn’t expect you to have to make such sacrifices for you family, you shouldn’t have too!

…and License by post’s pitiful notes… well that’s terrible, I mean LBP must be going down the pan, what a shame, the notes they dished out, and the tutor support when I did my license were pretty good… good enough to get me my license first hit!

…but why did you need the notes, as you say you could “pass them with your eyes closed”…weren’t you a supper tech or something in the military, working on super dupper hi-tech helicopters rather than the low-tech machines we in the commercial sector work on? I mean we often sit around the crew room talking about how the industry should reduce our salaries and re-invest it in new hi-tech machines for us to work on, and how nice it would be to help Agusta work out the introduction into service problems of the hi-tech AW139… O and we laugh and joke like such happy people talking about the hi-tech Apache helicopter that the Army use that costs much the same as a Eurofighter to operate as were just jealous of tax payers money paying military people to work on hi-tech machines, and O it would be nice to get to work on those really really high tech Chinooks that are so high tech that they can’t fly, you know the ones tax payers pay to be stored… all of that rather than the low-tech rubbish we have…you know the machines you want a career working on?

You know your right, you’ve been treated really badly by the commercial sector, you know if I were you I would just not bother… then well be sorry that we’ve lost your skill sets… that’ll show us!

O and don’t forget to write this up on Air mech with a different spin, as you did before, so they also think your badly done too…

[nodrama]

I'm afraid you asked for it Masterofnone.....

Many of us left the forces and had to put in alot of time, money and effort to get established in the civil sector. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made, hopefully only short-term, to get what you want....have cake and eat it springs to mind when reading your posts.

[Masterofnone]

This has suddenly become a personal attack on me has it?

My initial point, that was shot down in flames, was that this is a reason why there aren't so many people coming into the industry from the forces. I just used some of my experiences as examples.

In response to your attacks, I found out three months before I left that I was being discharged...I was told I was being retained (against my wishes, strangely, as I already had the job in Sheffield). I did not have months and months. Any pension I received was paid into by me as the forces pension is deducted from pay before they ever see it, so I had earned it!!

I never claimed I saved the company, they needed to employ someone and I came along...i'm not saying someone else couldn't do the same thing, only that it was me that ended up doing it instead of working on the aircraft!! It's got to be said that the Eurocopter job I went for interview for would have been ideal had I been single, but I just couldn't make the numbers add up with a family to support. I don't know what sort of 'living above my means' you think I am up to but I live in an ex-council semi in Sheffield, i'm hardly living it up in Monte Carlo!!

As for LBP....having not taken the exams so to not waste my money until i'm gaining experience, i'm going off what the other fitters I worked with at Sheffield told me, that entire subject matters were missing from the notes. At least one has since gone to Perth having struggled with LBP and passed the same courses.

Not sure what your point is on the Apache and Eurofighter....never worked on either. I said others were doing this didn't I? Problem is...how do you satisfy the experience requirements to become a B2 licenced engineer on Schweizer 333s & Bell 206s? You can't! They have a radio, lighting and basic electrical circuits that's about it!! Barely any instruments to speak of either. I looked through the logbook and there were at least three quarters of the requirements that couldn't be satisfied while working on these aircraft. That is why I went for the Oxford job, which I then discovered was payed exactly the same in an area where the cost of living was at least double.

To finish, i've never posted anything like this on the Air mech notice boards. I'm not even sure I have a log in......

[EGT Redline]

Unfortunately the services is full of people who talk the talk. The amount of folk who feel hard done by because they have to study for a licence is shocking. Civvy guys who've been brought up on civil aircraft working to civil procedures have to do it so why should a forces guy who has spent his entire life on miltary jets be any different.

Plenty of us have left the forces and done it the hard way. I used the time during my last couple of years in the RAF before PVR'ing wisely. I was on an operational squadron with 24/7 coverage working shifts but I still found the time to study for my ticket. In fact, I never had it so easy. Fixing a couple of aunt bettie's clapped out transport aircraft with 8 hour turnrounds and a handful of flights a day now seems like childs play compared to life on the line as a LAE in the civil sector. Try 60 odd movements, AOG's, defects and the regular 'A' check thrown in for good measure in a 12 period with only half a dozen blokes on shift and you start to get the picture. Most of the ex-forces guys I now work with who sat on their arse taking the money for queen and country often comment on how they regret not getting qualified prior to leaving.

Masterofnone, perhaps the reason why so many forces guys are steering clear on the civil sector is the thought of having to start at the bottom all over again. It isn't a case of simply carrying on where you left off and the longer you stay in, the harder it is to adapt. That said, if you pass the exams before jumping ship, promotion to LAE status with a type rating and company approval is easily achievable within 18 months of leaving if you knuckle down and prove yourself.

If you show up in on your first day of employment out here with the typical forces 'know it all' attitude you'll last all of 5 minutes. I remember a few years ago in the hangar at a well known MRO. An ex-Sgt turned up fresh out of the RAF with no experience of working large passenger aircraft. When asked to remove some leading edge panels he remarked that he hadn't spent 22 years in the RAF for nothing and that he should be supervising somebody else to do the job. When questioned about the licenses, type ratings and company approvals he held his face drew a blank. Needless to say he was gone by the end of the week.

[HESMADSIR]

Being ex sevices myself, i left betties air force in the early 90's through no choice of my own, eviction order for my quarters and a 4 month old baby to boot. Not a good position to be in but some difficult decisions were made and eventually managed to get on the circuit.

Yes it was bloody hard, different attitudes, conditions, very long hrs, crap rate (£7.35) etc but i pulled thru and eventually got a permie job.

Even then this was not a rosy picture by any means, again long hrs, crap pay but i got on with started studying in earnest and finally got my section L.

I collated loads of information from different sources some from LBP, some from Perth, Kiddlington and so on and used it all to good effect. Once i was typed up i went back on the circuit again this time licenced and earned a good wedge and then finally went permie again in my present job.

At no point did i expect anything to be handed to me on a plate, i fought bloody hard for what i got and even now that is the attitude i still take.
In my time i have met many ex forces who have gone into civil aviation and most of them knuckled down and got on with it. Yes there has been the odd one or two who thought they would would be in the same position of authority they had in the armed forces but they were all given a large dose of reality and changed their attitude.

All the lads who leave the RAF,ARMY,NAVY with their licences will still have to start at the bottom due to lack of civil experience, get type rated with relevant experience sheets filled out etc and then work their way up. That is life, that is the way the cookie crumbles, get on with it.

Civil aviation does rely an awful lot on ex forces to make up for the short fall in apprenticeship schemes that is a fact of life.

Nothing is easy, you do have to work hard but the potential to earn a good wage is still out there and we all need to encourage anybody who wants to join civil aviation to do so.
If you don't want to work hard then go on the rock an roll and become another leech on society. If you need to travel longer distances to get to a better paid job then do so that is life i'm afraid. ( I drive approx 500 miles a week, MY CHOICE!) I will move closer once my son has finished his education.

A little bit off track with this but in the end it all boils down to what YOU want from life and how hard you are prepared to chase it.

[beatrix]

Having spent 5 years getting a degree, and 8 years getting experience, I wish I was earning 30k as an IT person (post earlier)...... try working for the NHS if you think you're badly paid for doing something you've spent lots of time and effort learning how to do.. 19k is my salary - for 13 years of hard graft..

Where do I sign up for a proper engineers job and salary??