NT Aeromed

[baron_beeza]

Only a report in the local newspaper but they normally have an element of truth.

Old medical planes 'put patients at risk' - Northern Territory News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/12/12/21445_ntnews.html)

The Territory needs to replace its aeromedical fleet as the ageing planes are putting patients at risk, a new report reveals.

So I'm guessing we are about to see a newer, or upgraded fleet......

[DanArcher]

hahaha what a load of crap!!!

if I recall rightly Pear have 4 kingair B200's on the medivac contract & the guvamint is spending 12mil PA...

"We're prepared to step up to the plate," he said. "We do have ideas on how much we would like to spend, but we are keeping it confidential at this stage."

wonder how many ideas they really have... PC-12's seem to be the popular choice at the moment 5-6 mil (?) a pop not going to take long to well & truely exceed 12mil

maybe they have the idea that the 'old' planes weren't so bad after all...

[bush mechanics]

RFDS central section have just ordered 5 new PC12s to replace high time a/c.They might end up on the local market?

[Unhinged]

they normally have an element of truth

Whatever makes you say that ?? :ugh:

[Harry Cooper]

I gather the "Cornish Report" would refer to John Cornish who has done a lot with aeromedical operations in this country. If he is making criticisms then people usually sit up and listen (especially government departments). Pearl Aviation is a great operation but with some of their B200's approaching 25,000 hours would anyone be out of place for suggesting its time to look for new machines? How long does the NT Aeromed contract have left to run?

[baron_beeza]

Henderson plays down Pearl Aviation shortfall - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/12/2445320.htm)

The Government has cancelled Pearl Aviation's contract following a critical report which said its air fleet were ageing and inadequate.

I did read somewhere that they are not yet halfway into the 10 year contract.

[AussieNick]

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah the NT news is a sad excuse for a news paper

[Hasselhof]

Just in time for the Nomads to come back into production :E

[the wizard of auz]

Did the article mention a Crocodile?......... its not a true story unless it features a crocodile. :}

[morno]

RFDS Central Section approached the NT Government last time the contract went up for tender, however the medical staff at NTAMS would not fly on single engine aircraft.

Perhaps it's time for one of two things then. Either they are educated as to the safety of turbine singles (Wally, settle down, :E), or Pearl Av spend some money on a new fleet!

It's $12M a YEAR. Over the terms of a the contract, surely they would have been able to pay off most of the cost of new aircraft by then.

I have to agree with the article (despite there being no croc in there, :p). The fleet currently utilised by NTAMS has well and truely had it's day in this role. I'm sure the aircraft are quite airworthy, and I know 25,000hrs really isn't toooo much when you consider there's plenty of other King Air's out there with the same hours, but in the role of an Aeromedical aircraft, reliability is a major thing and I doubt a 25,000hr, 28 year old aircraft, can provide the same reliability as a brand new one.

Just my opinion, :ok:.

morno

[bushy]

RFDS central section have been trying to get into Darwin for more than 15 years.

[Towering Q]

Have they tried using the ILS?:}

[OpsNormal]

Nice one TQ.... :D

[Stationair8]

Three late model B200's will be in Darwin early in the new year.

Shame the local operator's didn't show any interest in the contract, but I suppose one more contract for ******* Aviation.

[tinpis]

Big opening here for an Amman Air II ?

MU-2 perhaps? :}

[The Voice]

What were you thinking Tinny? :bored: Enough words wasted in certain books now about V1 ta much!!

[tinpis]

BTW..can anybody enlighten me on the chopper that is on standby for aeromed at Tindal.
Is it IFR certified? Is the pilot? Able to operate single pilot IFR? Does it have
(servicable) wx radar/auto pilot?
Curious to know what yer get for $80,000 a month. :hmm:

[DanArcher]

Taking a guess it might be the CHC S-76, which is based at tindal as the RAAF's rescue chopper, If it is on stby for aero med you've got fully IFR 2 crew with radar & auto pilot sitting down there

[Desert Duck]

Harry

Who is this John Cornish ?

Is he some sort of expert in Aeromed operations ?

[tinpis]

Thanks Dan that would be it I think :ok:

[tinpis]

I have a summary of the Cornish report but dont know how to hang a PDF on here

[OpsNormal]

DD, a well versed auditor who is a very straight shooter who I personally have a great deal of respect for. He is usually engaged by various health organisations (I believe he is somewhat the leader in his field) to audit operations that conduct provision of health service related flying operations.

Away from work a thorough gentleman with whom it is a pleasure to dine, especially when the wives get together....:oh:

Tinny, if you flick it this way I can host it for you to link to.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[Harry Cooper]

DD, as OpsN said, John is an independent aviation consultant to lots of state governments with a specialty for aeromed. A great guy with a wealth of experience and some great stories to tell, just mention Caribou's to get him started! If John is making negative comments about Pearl's equipment, they'll have to sit up and listen - which by the sound of it they already have.

[Howard Hughes]

Either they are educated as to the safety of turbine singles (Wally, settle down, ),
I will step I on Wally's behalf! Enlighten us...;)

There can be no disputing the age of the Pearl fleet, they are old, as for the rest of the story, well they do need to sell papers! One could argue that for 12 million dollars per annum they are getting a bargain, it would be costing at least double that with new aircraft, even single engined ones!:eek:

[the wizard of auz]

Get some Caravans. cheap and reliable. even have wx radar in most of them. not as fast as a PC12 but beats walking. you could get 6 of them for 12 million.:ok:
*ducks for cover*:}

[Howard Hughes]

How about a Porter/Twotter/Dornier? (delete as applicable);)

See I have been paying attention!:ok:

[manymak]

Get some Caravans. cheap and reliable. even have wx radar in most of them. not as fast as a PC12 but beats walking. you could get 6 of them for 12 million.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
*ducks for cover*http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Isn't RFDS Qld ops already using a Van in FNQ?

[the wizard of auz]

HH, they would all be excellent choices...........and I wouldn't ever be out of work. :}:ok:

[bushy]

RFDS central section looked at caravans about 17 years ago. The problem is without pressurisation you have to bounce around in turbulence below the transition level. You are limited to 8-9000ft, and it's ROUGH. I remember one trip in a chieftain when the two nurses had a bucket on the floor as they worked.

[morno]

manymak,
No Caravans for QLD Section yet. They are ordered though.

They are not going to be used for patient retrieval however, strictly a people carrier for the clinics that are performed in North Queensland.

morno

[baron_beeza]

Finance, Business and Company News - Yahoo!7 (http://au.biz.yahoo.com/081212/31/2329c.html)

[the wizard of auz]

Now if we had American air, we could wander around 12500ft like they are allowed to over there. I spend a lot of time in that area of the atmosphere, and it is about where the majority of the big lumps tend to stop being a significant problem. The van has Ox outlets though, so it could be outfitted without a drama.

[Under Dog]

The Caravan would be no good for a sea level cabin which is often a requirement.

The Dog

[GreenerGrass]

Tin,

The S76 is a Jayrow IFR machine with two IFR crew. It's primary role is for off-shore oil/gas support.

[j3pipercub]

Not having looked at the figures of the P too closely but I'm sure the van could carry more specialists and equipment than a PC-12, not as fast but over an hour sector, it's only 15 minutes later...

j3

[Capt Wally]

PC12?................come on:}

[PLovett]

People, before you get too carried away with the idea of a Caravan for aeromed work please note carefully U Dog's post about sea level cabin requirements.

Head and eye injury wounds require sea level cabin pressure, premmy babies require no more than 2,000' (and thats when they travel back from Adelaide).

The Caravan has its place in aviation but aeromedical work is not it.

[Stationair8]

The old Kingairs are just part of the problem the other one is finding suitable pilots with the desired experience level and retaining them!

Those Kingair's would all be up around the 20,000 to 25,000 hour mark big dollars to maintain and a lot more time in maintenance.

[tinpis]

Lemmeesee..this might work...





Burns 111208 Cornish Report Exec Summary (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8962357/Burns-111208-Cornish-Report-Exec-Summary)

[morno]

Thanks for that Tinpis, an interesting read.

He really does slam Pearl Av's King Air's! For good reason though. An unreliable aeromedical outfit, is nearly as good as nothing at all.

morno

[DanArcher]

Tin,

The S76 is a Jayrow IFR machine with two IFR crew. It's primary role is for off-shore oil/gas support.

well I'll be...... doesn't suprise me that CHC missed out on it, chc management couldn't catch a cold....

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/11/17/16271_ntnews.html (http://http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/11/17/16271_ntnews.html)

[DanArcher]

the report proposes 5 year contract with 2 x 1 year extensions,

is it really feasible to spend millions on brand new pc12's or kingairs for such a short period???

[Stationair8]

So did Jayrow replace the CHC S76 at Tindal for the RAAF SAR contract?

[DanArcher]

no thats still there, I just thought it was logical assumption that the nt guamint would seek to use an aircraft (chc 76) already stationed at tindal esp as it does stuff all flying & could easily cover both contracts with very few clashes but maybe the RAAF wasn't to keen who knows....

me & my stupid logical thoughts :ugh:

[Stationair8]

No it would come down to crewing problems, who pays for the extra pliots to cover the on call night shifts etc! Thats if you want a full 24 hour service.

[Wally Mk2]

As others have mentioned in here, S/L cabin is a big consideration along with safety & reliablity when it comes to medivac retrievals. (Clinic runs are a diff story) All of the above can only be achieved by one airframe that is available new & that's the B200. (4get the P180, not practicable)Not a 'van' & not a PC12.
And rightly so as another member has pointed out some members of the medical farternity won't fly in SE A/C as per union directives for Eg. Was the case down Sth with AAV contract back in 2000 & still is in place, & for good safety reasons.

WMK2

p.s.........yes it's Capt Wally, been re-born after being 'shot down':ok:

[the wizard of auz]

Strewth Wally, what happened?.
Hey, I know the Van isn't a contender. I just threw it in there for bites (and I got a couple too) :ok: :}
It is a capable aircraft that will do a lot of the work for a lot less than is being presently spent, but there is a mindset within the RFDS that will see it hard to ever be realized. :rolleyes:

[rcoight]

Can't believe I'm doing this, but anyway.... must be bored...


As others have mentioned in here, S/L cabin is a big consideration along with safety & reliablity when it comes to medivac retrievals.....All of the above can only be achieved by one airframe that is available new & that's the B200.


Really?

Then how come Central Section has been doing exactly that with PC12's now for 13 years and re 100,000 hours?

Obviously nobody told them...


Whilst the arguments re "tiger country" in the south-east of the country have merit, I'm not sure that the NT can be put in the same boat, and as such either the PC12 or the B200 would do the job fine.

And why would the Avanti II be ruled out altogether?
It doesn't have the big door and probably isn't suitable for outback strips, but I know it has at least been "looked at" as a fast, economical option for tasks like transplant patients or pick-ups between capital cities etc.

[compressor stall]

Wally - be careful not to get opinion mixed up with fact. It serves no other purpose than to undermine your facts.

[Wally Mk2]

Ahhh you guys make me laugh:) Opinions opinions is all they are.
My facts are really my beliefs, facts to me not to you:)
'rc' well I don't need to explain what I said really but the word SAFETY is amongst my words, you simply can't get the same level of SAFETY with a single as against a twin:ok: And as for the P188? no contest, don't forget it's all about operating costs when it comes to contracts etc in the aeromed field & the more expensive less useable P188 won't ever get up!
I know when I used to fly an old LR35 (around 30 yrs old) on aeromed flights all over the pacific the Dr's & nurses would always bitch about how cramped it was with no toilet (well none that anyone would actually use that is) etc. When I asked as to why we didn't have better suited planes (comfort wise) I was told that when it came to Med retrievals conducted under an insurance claim the LR35 was the best, the CHEAPEST & that's all that an insurance Co thinks about:-)
I know the AAV down Sth here passed by the design of the P188 for the next contract briefly but after some sense was drilled into them they agreed to leave the type alone for various reasons. Apart from none being in this country with no spares back up, probably no engineers on type not to mention a whole new training system being needed for everyone concerned with thye P188 the COST would be out of the question. One other being the speed. In the SE section it (P188) would save little time. Our average sector time is 35 mins @ around FL160. The P188 would be a waste of it's abilities for us, it's only fast at the top end of it's design ceiling, probably in the 30+K Alt. The cargo door or it's non existance in the P188 is a huge issue, OH&S wouldn't allow for any of the ambo members never lone the pilots to load a patient without some form of mechanical assistance. The inablity not to be able to use short dirt strips (at this point in time) is another no no, so for that type the list goes on & on.
So again I say the B200 is the ONLY airframe that is acceptable, I don't make the rules/requirements of our contract for instance I just happen to agree with them:). All other sections opperate the PC12 bar us, terrain is but one issue.

Like I have said a zillion times, the PC12 is a great plane am sure, just not for us:)

WMk2

[morno]

Wally,
How many PC-12's have you seen crash due engine failure, in Australia in the last 13 years?

[Under Dog]

How many PC-12's have you seen crash due engine failure, in Australia in the last 13 years? Today 18:39
True Morno
Just don't want to be the first to have to ditch on the way to Lord Howe.

The Dog

[Desert Duck]

Tinpis

Is the complete report in the public domain yet ?

[Howard Hughes]

Just don't want to be the first to have to ditch on the way to Lord Howe.
Me neither...:eek:

Quiet night UD?;)

[Wally Mk2]

'Morno' fortunately none have crashed here in OZ, elsewhere is another matter though and as my esteemed colleges have said I/we don't want to be the first, simple really:ok:

WMk2:)

BTW do a Google search typing in PC12 engine failures, I think even though there has been few crashes due engine failure compared to the B200 (because there are zillions of Beechs about compared to a hand full of PC12's) they (PC12) are 3 times more likely to crash due that event. Interesting reading that's for sure.:) But at the end of the day if yr happy flying IMC at night in ANY single then yr my hero!:}

[Towering Q]

But at the end of the day if yr happy flying IMC at night in ANY single then yr my hero!

Not ANY single, but more than happy to do it in a PC12.

[Wally Mk2]

yes fair enough 'Q' not 'any' single. But fortunately the pilots down my way won't fly a SE of any type in our ops so we are 'safe' in more ways than one:ok: Each to their own but luckily common sense prevails where it counts:)


WMk2

[the wizard of auz]

Come on TQ, Me and you both flew Grasshopper in the dark..(Thats when those really big white knobs and buttons were useful)........ you going to trust that machine over any turbine single?????. I have been doing overwater ops in the van for quite a while now with 13 pax each way, and none of them ever worried about one turbine. I would shudder at the the thought of going off shore with grasshopper. (Hell, I used to have panic attacks about driving the trilander anywhere over the land in daylight, and that had three engines...but thats another story):E

[bushy]

If all else is the same, and at a high level, the a twin is safer than a single.
However, if the skill level of the pilots is allowed to fall, then the single is the safest machine, because it is simpler and better mannered.
It is however strange that "suicidal turnbacks" that have killed many, suddenly became safe when the single engined turboprop came along.
And the PT6 (which is a good engine) was suddenly deemed infallible even though there are known failures and forced landings in Australia and overseas.

[the wizard of auz]

I certainly wouldn't deem the PT-6 infallible, but certainly less fallible the the old IO540........ and by a long shot. that would be why the TBO is 5000hrs against 1800hrs. Just because you have a pair of them doesn't make it any safer, in fact it doubles the chance of an engine failure.
I'm sure if we dig around in Pprune, there will be the same arguments repeated in more than one thread. I am sure that the RFDS would have done a study on the risks involved before they delved into the world of SEIFR.
Now two PT-6's would be a whole different story. :E

[Towering Q]

I would shudder at the the thought of going off shore with grasshopper.

There was that overwater bit at 'the head of the bite' between Forrest and Ceduna, but I was always too busy enjoying the view to worry about engines stopping.:eek:

[Counter-rotation]

A lot of talk about the aircraft here, and fair enough too - that's a big issue.

No one has said much about the crew shortage. It's pretty common to have delays for a U/S King Air, or fly a spectrum unit because the Aeromed ships are in the shed, but it's also pretty common to see delays for lack of crew. The only way to ensure dispatch (with respect to crew) is to roster 8 hour standbys. 12 into 11 DOES NOT FIT - even if you could fly "half a job" and hand off to the next crew.

Yet it has been like that most of this year, and some of the last I think.

I haven't had a chance to read the report yet.

CR.

[Stationair8]

You have enough pilots to cover the roster, including the late night operations, delays with patients, training, holidays, sick leave and all the other things that can go wrong.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

IMHO the PC12 is a great machine.

You do not need to search too far back into the PPRUNE archives to read all the chest beating and bravado espoused by some about the Cessna Caravan ( also a great aircraft ), people stating the aircraft was statistically not ever going to have a engine failure and subsequently take a life.

Well that has been proven incorrect a great number of time.

An engine failure in any aircraft is not an "IF" statement, it is a "WHEN" statement, granted the turbine engine is expodentially more reliable than a piston, instead of an engine failure every 10,000 hours as suggested in pistons it may be every 100,000 hours for a turbine, but it does happen.

So in 100,000 flight hours a Baron will have 20 engine failures, very very unlikely to have two fail at the same time and the single engine turbine will have one, combining good gliding range with a well trained pilot, well it may infact be a good outcome.

For a B200 it will have two engine failures in the same 100,000 hours, the likelyhood of both emgines failing at the same time is any ones guess, and a B200 will climb at max weight on one engine.

The succes in the implementation of the single engine turbine into the trusted IFR role may be a Pyrrhic victory in the long term ( in your face Wiz ), time will tell.

[Wally Mk2]

'CR' true there was a time recently where lack of crews was perhaps a slight issue but not anymore, few are moving on around my way these days.
And as for changing crews mid way thru a task? Well it does happen more than most would think due crew hrs exhausting. This is done where a med team is in situ (in hossy) for extended periods of time due patient complications so a fresh crew/plane can be dispatched if available.

I think that eventually we end up talking about the pros & cons of SE v Twin because of all it's differences (& that's fair enough too) but most seem to back up the safety of a SE plane in 'ideal' conditions when an engine fails. High alt, perhaps reasonable wx with a visual appr at the end of it (glide) & a well trained pilot, all good & well but we often see the holes in the swiss cheese scenario line up even with 4 engined planes & multi-crew in ideal conditions so pilot ability only helps an outcome, doesn't guarentee a thing.
The biggest issue I would have with a SE plane in IMC ops is the T/off & ldg phase/s. This is where when an engine does fail there would be little if any options to have as far as a survivable ldg is concerned. Our major cities (unlike where country strips may have an out with flat terrain) where these planes obviously fly into are all surrounded by built up areas. I've watched many a PC12 depart from our base (EN) & I shudder to think what the outcome would be if one failed at say 300 ft for Eg. whilst taking off into a 30 kts breeze meaning a turn-back leaves the A/C assuming it can make the airport anyway with a very high speed touchdown. You could even have a 'lightie' taking off right behind the PC12 for Eg. with a 'green' pilot, he/her faced with multiple R/T from the twr & stricken A/C as well as a PC12 in his/her face could make for very interesting crash comic reading down the track.
The other thing that gets me with all of this is why do we go retrieve an at times critical patient out from nowhere in the first place only to have a higher risk ( I said higher risk, that's my belief) of both killing them plus the crew with a SE A/C? I would have thought ( & that's we we have twins) that 'saving' someone ment to give them )patient) the BEST possible chance of obtaining a fav outcome, go figure?:bored:
But most sections of the RFDS use the PC12, to me that's fine, I don't fly for them..............phewwwwwwwwwwwww:)
Still I ain't bagging the PC12 for EG, never have as many have said great plane & probably is, but you guys know me they (SE planes ) have their place just not under my bum:}
Okay am sure most are tied of this, am happy to wind up, for now:E

Wally Mk2:ok:

[Counter-rotation]

Pretty short post there. No problem, if it was correct.

Are you suggesting that late starts, unavailability due 24 hrs off, etc. are not happening AT ALL? Have never happened AT ALL? Loss of coverage due ONE GUY going sick doesn't happen AT ALL, EVER? If their crew situation was as you have described, it wouldn't.

Your statement is not correct AT ALL, in fact (not opinion) as these things are, whilst not frequent, certainly not uncommon. Two years ago there were at least 8 B200 crew at Pearl's Darwin base. Now there are 5.

This is not a flame, but I feel I must respond to your post. Perhaps you could give some more detail, so I can understand why you would make such a statement?

To be specific, I am talking about Pearl - and I think most others here are too, though "NT Aeromed" (thread title) could be RFDS Central...

[Stationair8]

To run a true 24 hour aeromedical operation you need to have the pilots to do it, and includes allowing for proper staff numbers, coverage of sick leave, annual leave, training, extended tours of duty if Pearl operate under CAO48 concession, late night operations and the fact of when the airlines go into recruitment mode you will lose staff.

I heard that Pearl were short of drivers, because the training pilots were line flying with the new guys to get up the night experience requirements. Didn't Pearl have a couple guys leave during their endorsements?

[Desert Duck]

CR

When NT Aeromed is mentioned there should be no doubt that it refers to the Pearl Aviation operation.

RFDS Central Section is not NT Aeromed.

Like Pearl they are contracted to NT Health

[tinpis]

RFDS Central Section is not NT Aeromed.

Might well be soon?

[bushy]

Many of australia's outback aviation services are impoverished, and I fail to see how they can ever recover until our numerous governments start paying real costs for proper services.
We have "not for profit" often subsidised organisations iand/or organistaions that get donations from the public, issued with AOC's and tendering for government contracts in competition with companies that have to pay all the commercial costs without being able to get contributions from the public or subsidies. One not for profit organisation states that potential pilots have to organise a cash flow that is suficient to pay their wages and expenses.
Our government seems to be using this as a system of favouritism and a means to get cheap services. I think it is unfair and unscrupulous, and the result is that there is insufficient money paid for the government services. Some tenderers can get "top ups" from the public, or other government sources. Others cannot.
Aeromed services are affected. AOC's should not be issued to "not for profit" organisations. AOC's are for business purposes.
Until we sort that out we will always have impoverished
air services with lots of associated problems.

I am not saying any particular organisation is impoverished.

[OpsNormal]

Ahhhh, the Pprune of 10+ years ago is back - useful threads, excelent banter.... :ok::ok:

Bushy is spot on again. Those organisations that hide behind either/and/or a spiritual cloak and not-for-profit business models do indeed make competition difficult for dedicated for profit companies. Look at Bushy's home town to see the difference in the market when one of those companies being referred to funnily enough somehow went broke after plans for market domination went a bit awry.....:D

It will be sad to see and I guess there will be many people with emotional ties to the companies involved but from what I read these days of the aeromed situation there in the Territory (effectively three providers if you count Barkly Aeromed) it is long overdue for rationalisation and intergration into one operation without the duplication of operational capabilities and management teams all pulling in their own directions.

From previous exposure to Government policy while I was involved in a Volunteer organisation the one thing that will end-up forcing the issue will of course be the various levels of Government. The reason is that Government Departments hate dealing with more than one entity and see duplication of offices, managers, aircraft etc etc as a waste of $$$$$ and believe me, they will get their way in the end.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[Wally Mk2]

Too thrue there 'opsNormal' with yr post. I like the bit at the end though, you quote..........."The reason is that Government Departments hate dealing with more than one entity and see duplication of offices, managers, aircraft etc etc as a waste of $$$$$ and believe me, they will get their way in the end".
The above highlighted words discribe the Govt itself not just an aviation Co. The trouble is the Govt (any Govt) haven't got a clue when it comes to aviation related contracts, the 'Aman" Aviation debarcle was a perfect Eg. But yr right an overhaul of the top end aeromed requirements doess appear to be needed.
Useful threads & excellent banter hey? Lets hope it stays that way but I have my doubts




Wmk2

[Xeptu]

Guys, you hang on to those B200's for as long as you can, flying around at night in any commercial operation, particularly in the territory is an accident waiting to happen.
In my life time, a bit less than 20,000 hours I have experienced 2 catastrophic failures and 4 engine shutdowns, one of those catastrophic failures was at night as was 2 of the shutdowns, both oil pressure failures all of them turbine all but one in a PT6 deriviative free power turbine.

Needless to say had those been in a single engine aircraft, its very likely I wouldnt be here today.

I always looked at airmed as a great little retirement gig, however if it's to be in singles well "f**k that" you guys must be nuts.

[Wally Mk2]

'Xeptu' yr post makes you my bestest new friend:ok::E
20K hrs hey? Tell us more, I won't live long enough to get to those figures.
SE engines in anything other than VMC by day is crazy anyway but hey if not for those missguided guys/gals what would we have to talk about here? Govt policies on aviation?:yuk:
I'm not so sure the central section of the RFDS are breaking their necks to tie up a sole contract with the NT Govt anyway. Anyone know otherwise?


Wmk2

[Counter-rotation]

The way things are at Pearl at the moment, I would be standing by for a few PT-6 failures, too!

That statement is a criticism encompassing not just the age of the aircraft, but the performance of the engineering department (and you can include the Metros in that too). The engineers have been shat on by management, and are in general pretty pissed off I would say, and rightly so. They are working hard and do not get what they need from management to do a proper job. That's my observation, anyway.

As for NT Aeromed -

1) The NT Government either don't know what provision of the service at a good standard requires, or they know and are unwilling to fund it.
2) Pearl management are ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL as far as running the company, and it is affecting ALL operations, and the Govt's aeromed contract is affected as part of that.

CR.

[rcoight]

SE engines in anything other than VMC by day is crazy

You old dinosaurs are hilarious.

But that's ok.

You haven't got long to go, so we'll forgive you...

[the wizard of auz]

You old dinosaurs are hilarious.

Bwahahahaha. :} now, where did I leave that popcorn. :E
Gorn Wally....... sic im. :E

[Wally Mk2]

.........relax 'wiz' these young whiper snippers self destruct in time anyway, us old buggers are like a splinter in ya finger, they pick at us trying to rid the pain but they know there's always another 'piece of wood' ready to be handled again:E

Wmk2:ok:

[rcoight]

Please define

these young whiper snippers

(sic)

You guys make me laugh.

Why do you think that number of posts on PPRune = experience in aviation?

I would have said that it's inversely proportional, myself...

Those of us who actually fly for a living, and have a life once they go home, have probably got more relevant stuff to say about life as a pilot than the sad gits who sleep with their Jepps every night....

When you can produce something other than "gut feeling" about the relative safety of PC12's compared to King Air's, let me know...

Bottom line is that I wouldn't try to claim I'm an expert about an aircraft I've never flown...
I've got 1500+ hours in PC12's... and 3000+ hours in piston twins.
I know what I feel more comfortable in

Wally, how many PC12 hours have you got?

0.00?

That's what I thought.

Have you noticed I've never made a comment about B200?
Cos I've never flown one, so I won't pretend I'm an expert.
Fantastic aircraft, no doubt.
But, you know what?
Bit of respect wouldn't go astray...

Good luck to you for not having to embrace new technology, but don't insult me and the rest of us because we are prepared to....

We're all on the same team!

Good man.

:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

heeehehehe. Heres that popcorn I was looking for. :E:}
Why do you think that number of posts on PPRuNe = experience in aviation?
I can't seem to find any reference to that statement being made anywhere.
I have to wonder why people make this claim. but if it makes you feel any better, I have many times my post count in hours flying in five countries, and I do have a life. I just find it entertaining here and would rather spend time here than watching television. I bet you have many more hours watching television than I have posts here. Each to his own though. :ok:
Cheerio old chap. :}

[rcoight]

Good for you, you're a bunch of legends and dinosaurs.

Does that change anything I've said? Please state...

Stat's for, say last 13 years, King Air accidents v PC12 accidents in AUS?

No?

Not interested?

Thought so...

I suspect you're more worried about modern technology than you are about flying the aircraft....

As I said, it's OK.

You haven't got long to go...


:8

[maxgrad]

With due respects to all concerned, pull your heads in and discuss the subject, not attachment size.

I am interested in the subject and for some strange reason interested on what you mob have to say on NT areomed and the two a/c types in question.

OK shoot me

[Howard Hughes]

Stat's for, say last 13 years, King Air accidents v PC12 accidents in AUS?

Why don't we wait until PC-12's have been around for forty years to make a fair assessment!:rolleyes:
I suspect you're more worried about modern technology than you are about flying the aircraft...
There is nothing in a new PC-12, that is not in a new Kingair, however there is ONE thing that's not in the PC-12!;)

And finally one last thing...
Wally, how many PC12 hours have you got?

You don't need to stick your hand in a fire to know it burns now do you?:E

[the wizard of auz]

rcoight read back a few pages........ I was one of the guys rooting for the SE aircraft. I do believe I will be around for sometime yet, as I am a long way from being a dinosaur. (yes, I have PC12 time too... not a lot admittedly, but I have flown it)

Maxgrad, Mate, I am happy to keep to the thread subject. I was simply pointing out that a comment made was not justified.... as for attachment size...... well, I didn't see that mentioned........ but I don't wear a watch. :}:E
some people take themselves far to seriously and make comments I am sure they wouldn't make if we were all down the pub having a beer and discussing the same subject. :ugh:

Why don't we wait until PC-12's have been around for forty years to make a fair assessment!
Fair point. but until then, they are a safe, reliable aircraft with the record to back them up. maybe in time that will prove to be different, but while they have the advantage of a good record, why not make use of it?.

WRT the Caravan. It was a comment I made tongue in cheek, but for the acquisition cost being far lower than either lower than the PC12 or B200, why not use them for the non critical flights, like the clinic runs, Patient repatriation and jobs where a sea level cabin is not required, and use the Kingair for the other jobs involving WX and night ops?. hell, you could get two and change for less than a PC12. It wouldn't be all that different to what the contractors with Chieftains, seneca's and the other pile of Piston twin that get used for those rolls.

[maxgrad]

Fairnuff Wiz just didn't want the mods to strike the thread.

Watch.:D....no I can't comment.:}

Never flown a PC12 but have time on King Airs. Must admit I prefer 2 engines to one after having to shut one down in anger.

Like the cargo door set up on the PC12 though

[the wizard of auz]

The Van has one too. :ok: not quite as big, but certainly adequate.
I agree with having two engines as well (as long as they don't have pistons), but surely there has to be some form of rationalization WRT cost Vs safety, otherwise we would all be getting around in 4 engined jets and helicopters wouldn't get a mention.

[Wally Mk2]

'max' you can do one simple thing if you don't like the posts that are coming think & fast here, pass 'em over after the first few lines:ok: I do just that when I read other posts that have diverged & I am no longer interested, works for me:) It's obvious that ANY subject drifts off in other directions eventually & that's mainly 'cause most threads tend to have a life span. You get contributors that post a few relevant details to the core subject straight away then after a while the 'hooligans' :Etake over 'cause there's little else to add to the subject other than perhaps some humor or other non related points as we see amongst these pages all the time. Then the Mods step in & slam 'em shut. Funny you know I reckon that half the reason why people come on here is to see who's reving up who & how far it will go b4 it's closed, & that my friends is what commercial advertising is all about ( & this site is now no different) , getting noticed !:ok:

Now 'rc' yr right I have zero hrs on the PC12 & ya know what? I'm so
'safely' happy about that!:E

I was just talking to the med team just last night enroute over tiger country at 1am in the morning (you know hills nasty terrain nowhere to land etc etc ) happly cruising along in the flt lvls when we hit some rough air & entered cloud with ice. The Dr in the back mentioned I don't like this (scaredy bum I thought ) ride but at least we have 2 engines, I had a quite chuckle to myself that's for sure as I listened to the sweet sound of safety in numbers:E


Wmk2:)

[the wizard of auz]

Hooligans indeed. :}:E

[Hasselhof]

It wouldn't be all that different to what the contractors with Chieftains, seneca's and the other pile of Piston twin that get used for those rolls.

Not to mention the 25 000 hour C210's and C206's that still do patient travel runs all over Arnhem,.

[bushy]

Or the sixty thousand hour 737's that thousands of pax fly in.

[Alice Kiwican]

Never flown a PC12 or B200 but would much rather be banging around in one of these (or a C208 come to think of it) than a clapped out piston on a medivac! And yes I have operated PA31's and C402's in this type of environment!:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

Like the cargo door set up on the PC12 though
Me too, it would be great to have two doors...:ok:

Perhaps they could stick another engine in the tail, then it would be purrrrfect!;)

[Towering Q]

Wally, another plus for the PC12 that you probably haven't thought of....the testing officer won't fail an engine whilst you're turning inbound on the NDB during your renewal.:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

'Q' I like the way you think, but am sure the ATO's would have plenty of other tricks up their sleeves:) Then again under test conditions & in VMC he/they might fail an engine just after turning inbound on an NDB anyway to practise the very thing as to why I wouldn't be flyng one in the first place, an off airport ldg. This scenario plus many others is the exact reason it's too dangerous in my mind, it takes 1 accident like the above & then we will see you goes running for cover! It's only a matter of time.

Anyway back to the original posters subject.........."old medical planes putting patients lives at risk"................. it's almost laughable that statement if they even consider using SE planes but more laughable is the fact that the statement is referring to twin turbinesl!!:bored:

Wmk2

[Under Dog]

Wally

Havin plenty time on both I would have to agree with you cos as I said before I wouldn't want to have to ditch on the way to lord howe in the 12 althought the technology is light years ahead of the B200 .

Towering Q
Thats so true that the testing officer not failing an engine in an NDB but I still wouldnt want to try one of those cloud break procedures
for real cos it would leave a nasty brown stain in my pants.
P.S are you still in Meeka


Regards The Dog

[xxgoldxx]

its all numbers really..

If you weigh it up and feel the risk is acceptable then life is grand..

would I do it middle of the night/knowhere etc in a 210.. NO, in a 402.. maybe, in a PC-12 no drama, in a kingair of course..

taking all else in consideration though.. if the 210 was near new, great maint, known history etc etc and the kingair had 30000 hrs with questionable maint near timex eng and dodgy maint history the scales start to tip..
these things quite often aren't in our control..

so RFDS PC 12/45 or busted arse kingair.. give me the PC 12 anyday...
If a low hour, well maintained PC 12 doesn't cut it for you then maybe you should reconsider the airline gigs..

if you want to be 100 %safe...take a sickie and stay home ....!!

[Wally Mk2]

'xxx' fair comments re questionable maint etc. Such antics does exist in that industry for sure. And yes you could boil this debate down to numbers. Risk is all about numbers. BUT it's more re an engine failure in either the PC12 or the B200 as being the core story-line here now. If like you say you are faced with flying a 'busted arse' B200 as against a well maintained PC12 you would rather be in the PC12. Okay then lets say that yr poorly maint B200 does have an engine failure due engine close to time ex for Eg. (that's a furphy anyway esspecially with turbines) you HAVE options as in SE climb for Eg.in the old 'busted arse' B200. With the PC12 there are NO options other than down should you have a single engine failure 'cause you only have one if the first place. To me I'd rather have two crappy turbines on my wing than one good one up front unless of course you loose both turbines in yr B200 then I guess you really are sh1t out of luck & should have done as you suggested, stayed home having a sickie with 100% safety:ok:



'UD' the thought of ditching in a SE plane sends shivers up my spine. But that same thought over terrain at night in IMC belies belief that's it's allowed in this country, wasn't once & for good reasons.

Interesting note here though notice how this thread has gone as far as 5 pages or so & it's still running mostly now for the old twin V SE. Just goes to show that this subject is still very much a sensitive issue & is alive & well despite others of the same content being closed by the Mods in the past.

Wmk2

[maxgrad]

WallyMK2
Have to agree with you there. Even if it is a busted arse frame, the availablity of the second engine even in a possibly "busted arse state" will give you options.

Like the Be200GT with add ons, something like 315KTS.

[Wally Mk2]

yeh 'max' it aint rocket science here but it is too some:) I believe the B200GT is the only version Beech are producing now in the STD airframe. 1700 gee gees all thye way to the top, now that's gotta hurt those SE jobs:E

I know this will be a thread drift but hey am guilty as sin for that:E
Would someone who flies the PC12 like to describe a cloud break procedure or how one goes about (via the Co SOPS) conducting an NDB App with the ONLY fan failed? Genuine question for safe reading by us non believers:)


WMk2

[morno]

Once I tell you Wally, you're gonna wanna go and do one, :E.

The cloud break procedure. One of my favourite maneouvers to do during our proficiency checks, :}. Although, I think if I had to perform one for real, I dunno if it'd be my favourite part of the ride down! I'm very confident it would be successful though, unless you had absolute rubbish conditions (ie. below 700ft).

The whole idea of the cloud break is to obtain maximum speed (up to Vne) and hopefully come out the bottom below the cloud, and then use the inertia to fly a circuit and land.

The SOP for the company I work for would be pretty similar, if not the same for everyone else who operates the PC-12. After all, we learnt it from another section.

Ok, let's say you're cruising along at FL180 and your engine has failed, you've feathered it, and you've started with the normal engine failure procedures (ie. GA mode on the FD activated, with the autopilot engaged, so you can pitch the nose up, obtain some more height, and obtain your glide speed of 114kts at MTOW). Next step is to find the nearest airfield. As a good practice, we put as many airfields into our GPS' as possible, around the area's we fly, should this event ever occur. Direct To the nearest airfield, and let the autopilot fly the aircraft. It's always going to do a better job at it than you are at this point.

Typical ROD with a failed engine in the PC-12 is around 800-1,000fpm. And from FL180 down to the ground (assuming ground is at MSL) would give you a glide range of pretty close to 45nm's, if not a bit more. Pilatus have always said that it glides even better with the prop in feather, compared to the zero thrust setting we use during training.

Ok, so you're on autopilot, captured on your best glide speed, and tracking direct to the nearest airfield. Next step is to set up the aircraft's Altitude Alert and RADAlt. We set the Altitude Alert to 1,200ft above the aerodrome, and the RADAlt to 700ft above the aerodrome. The idea being you get the alert passing 1,200ft, and are starting to level out to be level at 700ft if you're still in cloud. Continueing below this at the speed's you're doing the cloud break, could end in certain tragedy (yeah yeah, I know, the engine's already failed, but what would you rather, hit a hill at 236kts or hit a hill at 80kts? :E).

The main part of the procedure of course is to set yourself up on a 7nm arc from the aerodrome. Continue around on the arc until you are 7,000ft above the aerodrome, and then disconnect the autopilot, turn direct to the airfield, and point her down on a 1:1 descent profile, which will bring you up to near Vne (236kts). Pop out the bottom of the cloud, up near Vne, and then use the inertia to fly yourself a circuit and land. It's hard to believe how well the PC-12 does really glide until you try it for yourself, but you will find even doing this procedure, you'll often find yourself higher than you think on final, and side slipping to get the thing down. I was doing one of these one day in training, and once I 'broke visual', I had to swing around and join crosswind. Up on a 45 degree AOB turn, and still doing 220kts, ohhhhhhh yeah, :}.

So if that's scared a few of you, then that's ok, I'll keep my PC-12 to myself, :ok:.

morno

[Wally Mk2]

Thanks a lot 'morno' that's a great story to tell the grand kids, if you survive!:} Nah really terrific answer to what I asked. I thought that it might be something long those lines going to Vne & using what you have left, the only thing you have left the energy in the beast. I would use the same process in any SE to climb using what's available energy wise, those few extra feet might make all the difference.
Interesting thought the 7nm arc procedure. This I assume is only good if the AD you are attempting to land at has terrain flat ALL the way round & not hills round most of it.
You didn't mention however what procedure was adopted if you didn't break visual & the cloud/fog was on the deck. Min fwd speed wings level & if yr best mate is God (which it would have to be flying SE in IMC) pray like there's no 2moro 'cause there probably won't be!:)

Anyway again tnxs for that update 'morno'. I take my hat off to you guys who fly those PC12's in aeromed tasks in all wx to lots of dark nasty places & at night,I really do. I couldn't do it & that's by choice.
And may I ask when you get a chance what the procedure is for an engine failure after T/off that precluded a return the the departure AD? Being at high FL's & with open flat terrain in VMC is obviously the best chance for an off AD ldg but we have to take off & land sometime right & at night into cloud?:)
I hope the Mods don't slam this one closed just yet, this is now becoming a learning curve for a change.


Wmk2

[maxgrad]

Morno,
nice work.
When you are filling the GPS with airfields do you give any options, eg night rated strips with lighting?
On a dark and stormy night, engine failure and trying to get the man with the flares out in a hurry would be, I imagine a big case of fiddy cen ten cent on the pucka valve.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Typical ROD with a failed engine in the PC-12 is around 800-1,000fpm. And from FL180 down to the ground (assuming ground is at MSL) would give you a glide range of pretty close to 45nm's, if not a bit more

What? I make that a glide ration of about 15:1. Right up there with a V-tailed Bonanza. Ain't nobody in here gonna believe that!

Dr :8

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Nicely explained morno! :ok:

I'm assuming that is QLD's procedure, where did it originate?

This I assume is only good if the AD you are attempting to land at has terrain flat ALL the way round & not hills round most of it.


Hey there Wally, obviously this aint gonna work in 100% of scenarios, but you can either continue the glide to say 3nm:3000' or follow the arc in a direction (anti-clockwise is the SOP) that allows an approach from the most favourable direction. In any case the 6:1 profile is already reasonably steep. :hmm:

As for a return to the field: with a properly executed departure and appropriate adjustments to your climb speed, a return to the field would be available in the majority of instances (howling gales excepted) for almost all of your climb. This is no doubt one of the reasons that our SOPs here use a higher T.O. minima, which conincidentally is well above the 700' that morno speaks of. :ok:

When you are filling the GPS with airfields do you give any options, eg night rated strips with lighting?

Yes this is done, database size permitting. Some simply have a runway direction, others PCL etc. The downside is that this uses up memory that could be other strips that one might want in times of need.:ouch:

Any way you deal with it, Murphy is still going make your life entertaining at times! :eek:

[tinpis]

Morno yer not serious...


Are you? :uhoh:

[bushy]

The testing officer will not fail an engine on an NDB approach in a PC 12??
Why not????
Is it too dangerous????
A king air can handle it.
Maybe a King Air IS safer.

[morno]

Maxgrad,
We have KLN90B's in our PC-12's. We normally only put the runway length, runway directions, elevation, and whether it's hard or soft in the details. That then makes it appear on our EHSI in the Map Mode with Airfields selected. Helps give us a warm fuzzy feeling when we see aerodromes being displayed in our 40Nm ring, knowing we have a chance, :). Don't normally insert any other details (there is the option to though). I guess I figure it's an airfield, and at a time of need (ie. no engine), then any airfield will do!

Most of the time we'd be at a decent level that would enable us to have a reasonable amount of time to get ready for the forced landing. As I said before, the autopilot is a very big help in such a situation, as you can get settled, go through everything, and get out any airstrip details you need, without the need to concentrate so much on flying the aircraft. Airfields which are in the GPS are only one's which are in our company airfield directory, or in the ERSA. So we always have at least most details on the airfield.

Should you be stuck at night with a failed donk, and gliding to an airstrip with no lights, the nurses also have a procedure which they follow (great help those nurses, :ok:). That being, they ring up the owners of the strip we're gliding to, alert them to what has happened, and what we're doing. They can then talk them through how to set up car headlights on the strip, which will give us some runway lighting.

Wally,
Basically, if our donk fails below 1,000ft AGL, we're going straight ahead into the tree's/grass/whatever looks not too bad. Through 1,000ft though, then the PC-12 is more than capable of turning back to the airstrip. Yes, it's against everything you ever learnt flying piston singles, about turning back, but rest assured, done properly, it is a safe procedure, and you'll always find yourself high on the approach once you've finished the turn.

On climb normally though, it's just a matter of flying it as a single engine aircraft. Meaning that you climb it at such a speed that if your engine did fail, then you are able to turn straight back around, and glide back to the airfield you originated from. All a matter of risk management. Unfortunately I'm not the boss, so I don't get a choice in what aircraft we buy and don't buy, so if I'm given a single engine a/c, then you just need to minimise the risk of flying in that single engine a/c. So you do climbs which enable turn backs, you remain constantly alert to what your engine is doing, and you make a habit of getting to know as many airstrips in the area's you're flying. Basically, just fly it as though your engine is going to fail every time. Then you'll be in a better position should it ever fail, :ok:.

Reverseflow,
I'm not entirely sure where it originated from at the start (dare I say Pilatus themselves as a guess), but I'd say our section got it off Central Section.

morno

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Reverse,

The procedure originates from the Military, the Australian Military use it.

There are questions about hitting a hill at 236 KIAS, on a one to one descent, there is not likely going to be terra-firma in that area, how would a aircraft out climb that in VMC ?, the only concern I could think about is from the west into YBCS.

Turn backs are relatively common in newer aircraft, Flightsafety teach it for the C208.

To expand on one point, 7,000 AGL and 7NM is quite critical, if you went to 10,000 AGL / 10nm, you'd bust VNE.

I'm with morno, its great fun, in training.

[PLovett]

All I know is that watching the cloud break procedure from the ground is hellishly good fun. :ok:

I've watched both the RFDS Central mob and NT Police practicing it and its well worth the time. The scream as the PC12 belts overhead and then into the steep turns onto final is something to hear. :}

[Howard Hughes]

The cloud break procedure.
Geez Morno,

How am I suposed to remember all that? At what point does one 'assume the position'?:E

I think I'll just put the other lever up and head to the nearest 'suitable'!:}

PS: Does sound like fun though (not for real of course...);)

[Wally Mk2]

Great replies here guys, 'morno' I think we have started something here.

As 'HH' said though that's a lot to remember on top of all the other high work load (at times) aeromed brings.Excellent thinking that yr going to loose that engine the whole time yr flying, that way yr not caught out completly, but I bet you would still be stunned if it all went quiet at 500' after T/off:)
'Plovet' that scream you mention as the PC12 is going over head during a practice eng failure aint the plane itself it's the crew trapped inside their future coffin screaming their heads off! (No disrespect meant):)

I can recall when I was training for my CPL my instructor & I where a little bored one day during practise everythings so he pulled the throttle back to idle at 500' after T/Off in the old C150 & I practised turning around back to the field (Taree)to line up the dep rwy. We did it easily when I think about it now but I guesss that's a light weight plane but even so then to me it was a scarey event, can't imagine it being done at night in the PC12 for real, brave stuff:ok:

hey Dr:8 even the old girl (B200) will glide nil wind 36 nm's from FL180 but I figure if you are doing that then it's time, time to make a public apology over the radio to all the SE drivers out there who think it's as safe in a PC 12 for Eg. that paerhaps twins aren't that safe afterall:E I love you mum, part of the QRH under engine failure in PC12 perhaps?:E

So for now am enjoying this thread, some useful info coming from all corners of belief:)


Wmk2:)

[Desert Duck]

Wally and others

Two engines did not help the poor buggers in the King Air at YTWB.

[tinpis]

The medical professionals that sit in the back KNOW about this stuff? :uhoh:

[Wally Mk2]

'tinpis' that is so true, as I said elsewhere here I had this very conversation (SE v Twin) with the DR the other night enroute over tiger country when we hit nasty turbulence & he thought we where gunna die anyway. The Ambos down our way simply won't fly in a SE plane, their union got involved when the contract was originally set up I believe
.
'DD' yr right there but ANY A/C can go down even one with 4 engines, the core subject here now though is safety of a SE v twin if an engine fails.
Was that the one that crashed just after T/off at Toowoomba?
I never did follow it up as to the cause.


Wmk2

[xxgoldxx]

as said previously.. its all numbers..
I am a fan of SE turbine (PT6) aircraft.. but there is NO argument that a PC12 has as many options as a kingair should one fail..

If the question though is " do you consider the PC 12 sufficiently safe to fly in the AEROMED enviroment" then absolutely..

we all know the numbers regarding PT6 failure rates... yet in a twin enviroment life is lived on the assumption that the most critical will fail at the most critical time.. no arguments against that planning but.. ..
how many kingair drivers know the speeds/cloudbreak procedures/glide ratio required etc etc to get into an off track ALA after both fail..

surely if one is so likely to fail every takeoff then 2 must fail now and again.. and as we all know fuel starvation is much more common than eng failure in these aircraft.. having two aint gunna help that one..

so there is an awesome (and well practised) explanation of how the PC12 guys would handle it.. whats the plan for the kingair crowd...??

[Wally Mk2]

................how many kingair drivers know the speeds/cloudbreak procedures/glide ratio required etc etc to get into an off track ALA after both fail........'gold' I think yr drawing a very long bow now mate. As for answering some of yr somewhat 'off track' question. Glide speed for the B200 135 kts. Dist travelled per 1000 ft nil wind 2 nm. There is to my knowledge no procedure for doing anything other than what every pilot was taught at the very beginning of training for an engine out failure whether it be 2 or 1.You can argue that ANY flying is unsafe using the above statements but they build multi engined planes for very good sound reasons, one being to enhance the chances of survival should an engine fail.
Look nobody is denying that the PC12 for Eg. isn't a safe plane. It's probably one of the safest planes around in its class but that's just it, in it's class, it's simply not in the same class as the B200 for Eg. & could never be so by the very nature of it being a SE plane.

Can both types perform the same task? Well yes of course they can.
Can both types perform the same task with the same level of safety?
NO!
The story continues, I hope:ok:


Wmk2

p.s............I must thank the Mods for allowing this thread to continue, there maybe a glimer of hope in their hearts afterall:ok:
Wmk2

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

but they build multi engined planes for very good sound reasons, one being to enhance the chances of survival should an engine fail

Wally, I thought they built'em with two cause they couldn't get off the ground with one!

Try it sometime! Fire up one only on the big Beech, and see how far you get!

Dr :8

PS: Do you think there is something in this thread for me? Now, how does it go again? Glide for a 7 nm arc by 7000' - and then dive for the runway at Vne!

[maxgrad]

Tinpis,
Certain medical staff are crew and thus a vital part of the whole sherbang. Like anything in the a/c, they are there to be used as needed. Many have been flying for long enough to know what sounds are normal and when things have changed shape.

Generally make good coffee too:)

[Sarcs]

As LHRT stated, the 'Cloudbreak Procedure' originated with the military but you have to bear in mind that its a bit different getting to the bottom (700'agl) not visual and using your inertia to grab altitude and then ejecting!! PC12s unfortunately don't have that option.

The CB Procedure, although a lot of fun and a real test of a pilot's raw ability, was generally regarded by most pilots (in the RFDS section I worked for) as a poor second option to gliding from altitude to overhead the field then high key, low key, final all the way to the threshold. Personally who cares if it takes 20 min to finally hit the ground?

On a side note I always wondered if it was possible for GPS manafacturers to design a standard High key, Low key, Final overlay for application on any (1000m or more) aerodrome in your GPS's database. Surely it would be simple trigonometry using the aerodrome reference point?

cheers

Sarcs

ps have over 1500hrs in the PC12 but I would always prefer to have my backside parked in the trusty old B200. The pucker factor is not quite so great when flogging around in the middle of the night over tiger country!

[tinpis]

I wondered how long it would be for someone to state the bleeding obvious:ok:

not visual and using your inertia to grab altitude and then ejecting!! PC12s unfortunately don't have that option.

[Xeptu]

Shame on you guys, none of you are thinking like an accountant, who's the one running your company/organisation. The PC-12 is clearly the most efficient cheapest and safest aircraft to operate, "UNTIL" the engine stops for any reason, doesnt really matter, survival is not budgeted for, there's medical costs, court cases, wheel chairs, third degree burns, this goes on and on forever, very expensive, no! no! no!, we want high speed impact with the ground, total loss no survivors, Tragic Loss, very sad. Insurance replaces the airframe, new crew all back the way it was within a month, after 6 months no-one remembers it, never happened.

So what was this argument about again??? how soon we forget.

[Wally Mk2]

'Xeptu' sadly yr post is 'dead' right, all too soon how we forget.
I heard just the other day that it's 20 yrs since the Lockerbie crash, sadly I had forgotten all about it.
Airlines are now run by accountants (or fake ones) & we now have an entirely different ball game these days. The other RFDS sections that operate the PC12's do it for one pure reason, cost! What price hey?:sad:



Wmk2

[bushy]

There is some interesting reading on Prune in the flight testing section. Go there and search "turnbacks'.
Apparently the RAF stopped doing it, because the training was killing more than the normal operations. A bit like double assymetrics in a 707.

[tinpis]

I wouldnt need a job flying a single in IMC at night ...no ta..
I wouldnt ride in the back of one either

[Jamair]

Then there's the story of the early Aerocommander which flew from the factory field to the testing centre with the second prop stowed in the cabin....:} can't attest to the truth of that one.:\

Can talk though about a Van EFATO at TL in Jan this year where the driver was in IMC and managed to turn it around and land on the reciprocal RWY off the ILS....was lucky though, the TL 2 S departure tracked him south, then east then back overhead before taking up track to the destination (MA) so he was at 4200' / 4nm (I think) when it went quiet.....wonder what woulda happened if he was tracked straight out to the west on T/O, would have been IMC over major tiger country at low alt:ooh::ooh:

TWB - the C90 - some believe the pilot was incapacitated by the uncontained fan disintegration which explains why he took no corrective action; otherwise he would probably have either shut it down and overrun, or continued the T/O and at least theoretically been able to fly it away on the one remaining engine. We will never know for sure:sad:.

[tinpis]

What can happen on a night cloud break after a failure

Happy Xmas all

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/image001-1.gif

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

So what was the RFDS/Vic Air Ambulance Kingair doing in Darwin last weekend?
Showing the NT government and health department what a new B200 looks like?

[tinpis]

Showing the NT government and health department

I expect a few will be in bed this week :rolleyes:

Health Minister quarantined with suspected swine flu - Northern Territory News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2009/06/04/56035_ntnews.html)

[Stationair8]

Obvious to much time with there snout in the trough!

Interseting about the B200 in Darwin, doesn't the Vic Air Ambulance contract come up for renewal shortly and requires four new aircraft.

RFDS SE section wouldn't be taking over the Pearl contracts by any chance?

[Dog One]

I guess with the CLP still out in the wilderness, Pearl mightn't have the political clout to regain the contract with their elderly B200's against the RFDS

[maxgrad]

The last report stated new / newer machines to do the job.
NT Govt will therefore have to dig deeper into their pockets regardless of successful bid and a/c type.

[tinpis]

The NT "government" got a few more pressing things to consider at the moment

[the wizard of auz]

Tinny, you know as well as I do, that just because they have other things that warrant considering, doesn't mean that they will be considered. Priority has a whole different meaning in the NT from my past experiences whilst there. :E:ooh:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Anyone know where this is at yet. I have heard of a few interested parties for this fairly large contract.
SN

[Arnold E]

Rumour has it that RFDS Central feel confident.

[Xcel]

what was the rfds pc12 doing there 6 weeks ago...?

only to have a b200 rock up more recently??

perhaps they had to come back with a real plane??

[load it, launch it]

Don't know which one was there but it could have been Western Ops delivering patients or Central Ops doing an IHT out of Alice.

[The Green Goblin]

Enough blackfellas using it as a taxi service in the NT, don't need the WA ones abusing it too :D

[Counter-rotation]

Frigatebird
????? "NT Aeromed" - Did you get the wrong thread for your reply mate?
Did he have a patient onboard? (12.5 hours - maybe going via Norfolk Island...)

Xcel et al.
Not that uncommon lately, to see the Western Ops people at NTAMS in Darwin, waiting for an ambulance...

CR.

[Counter-rotation]

There appears to be two "NT Aeromed" threads running kind of in "parallel" at present...

This is the older of the two, and I've just been reading through it again. Lots of twin v single (predictably :}) but early on, a lot of comment about Pearl's "old" aircraft.

Now we all know this contract is definitely coming up on significant changes (refer other thread), and the aging fleet is likely one of the precipitants of the changes. It's worth stating again (well I'd like to anyway) that the NT Government got exactly what it asked for (and were prepared to pay for) in that department...

CR.

[Xcel]

was just on the news...

17 nurses on the contract have been axed and will be put to use elsewhere...

Careflight have won the contract with Pelair operating the aircraft.

there was some bull about pearl not wanting to operate Tindal anymore due to safety issues... but could just be journo spin

Also to link in from another thread (hey this is a rumour network) The tender winner is to take up residence across the drain in the never ending musical hangar...

[maxgrad]

not pelair but another operator.
rest is media spin and wrong, apart from possible political footballing that is

[havick]

how could careflight have won the contract already when tenders don't even close until the end of this month?

unless it's the interim contract you're referring to?

[tinpis]

Have the wallabys been kept on? :hmm:

[Falling Leaf]

there was some bull about pearl not wanting to operate Tindal anymore due to safety issues... but could just be journo spin

What safety issues? Whatever they are, not enough to keep an F/A-18 Squadron from operating out of there, day and night:) Unless the Hornets are the safety issue!:E

Sounds like spin to me.

[JMEN]

Sounds like a soap opera - Like sands through the hour glass...

[Counter-rotation]

Tinpis

The marsupial captive breeding programme is the envy of the world!! But who is actually in charge of it - now that would be telling! :ugh:

CR

[maxgrad]

Falling Leaf,
The RAAF have cancelled a number of night ops due wildlife. F18s have been damaged by roos. They adjust their times around dawn and dusk to reduce their risk.
Spin.....not

[Jabawocky]

Why don't they shoot the bloody things, and set a precedent, so we can shoot them at YCAB and YRED.....and anywhere else!

[frigatebird]

For 'Warriors' training to shoot and bomb humans as part of the job description, seems the Air Force allow risk of damage by furry animals when operating our own expensive taxpayer-funded hardware at an important Base, that probably wouldn't be acceptable if an Ally were to temporarily base equipment there.
A good vermin proof fence all the way round, and a dozen Landcruisers in a line with handlers and pig-dogs to flush the hoppers out through a few opened up panels would reduce the risk factor.
A good marsupial fence, patrolled by the Airport Guards (they do have them I presume) who don't leave the gates open on weekends, - would cost less than repairs to, or loss of, a FA-18 from hopper damage, if they can't seem to use other firepower. Happens that way outside the Military, how come they are so blinkered..? We need to get something back from the Government regarding security for having ASICS, at joint user airports.

Too direct a solution, though, for some..
Needs more buckpassing, consultants reports, millions spent, etc..

[maxgrad]

Frigatebird, They put up a fence but only across the area.....read useless.
They tried a combo of dried food then changed to wet food so they could put knockout drops in.......roos had a party then buggered off onto the runway to play. tried a weighted net gun thingy but greenies got upset about unduly harming hoppers. tried selective shoots but contracted shooters were so hamstrung with rules that they could not consistently shoot in good numbers. Tried shooing them out with a big line of ADF personal..failed.

I propose we induct them into the ADF and be done with it.

[PRD Area]

What about inhumanely shooting the terrorists on Commonwealth property? :}

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Well thats all very informative. I'll think twice before asking for updates in future!
SN

[RENURPP]

Tried shooing them out with a big line of ADF personal..failed.


I wish I could say I was supprised that our military are not able to defeat 1/2 dozen "Roo's" but unfortunately ...........................

[White and Fluffy]

I see that both Careflight and Pearl are looking for Darwin based B200 pilots. Are people jumping ship, getting out whilst they can or are the companies trying to build up the resume pile for when the final contract is awarded?

[Arnold E]

Err, got any PCX11 time? Might be handy:ok:

[Harry Cooper]

Whats the go with the mandatory low flying requirement with Careflights minimums? Is that yeah I've done a beat up or two or do they want an actual low level rating? Why?

[maxgrad]

any news on the interim contract yet.
Sub contractor
Aircraft
etc
etc?

[relax737]

Quote from P4:

SE engines in anything other than VMC by day is crazy

Response:

You old dinosaurs are hilarious.

But that's ok.

You haven't got long to go, so we'll forgive you...

I'll go one further than that; Any ops by night in anything with less than 2 jet engines, each a minimum 22,000 lbs thrust, is not on, and you can add 'by day' to that as well!!

I flew around the territory in single engined aircraft and it's something I wouldn' ever want to do again.

[rcoight]

Ok, I'm happy to retract what was supposed to be a throwaway, light-hearted line (from a long time ago, too).
Obviously not taken that way....

FWIW, there are 56 B200's on the AUS register and 46 PC-12's, so the size of the fleets is not that different, and in the next 12-24 months I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio reversed...

But, I'm more interested in the comment that all parties to this contract have so far tendered twin-engined aircraft...

Can you elaborate?

If you're in the know, what have RFDS Central (and others currently operating only singles) proposed?

[Counter-rotation]

The tender date being pushed back IS unfair to those who had their submissions in on time - no question. But the NT Government will continue to just make it up as they go along, including setting deadlines, contract specifications, etc. and when the time comes they will shift the goalposts, if required, to suit themselves - without hesitation... :yuk:

Seeing this happen does not surprise me in the slightest. At least it's not an out and out lie, such as they have been peddling to the nurses...

How are your "expressions of interest" coming along Careflight? Will an extra two weeks be enough for you to "field a team" for the game in January? :D

CR.

PS What are the chances that similar to the tender closing date being revised, the interim contract finishing date (Dec 31st) will be extended in November?!

[rcoight]

I dont think we will see a huge rise in the PC12 fleet maybe 3-4 nation wide over the next 18 months.

Central alone have 5 new ones coming before the end of this year.

[xxgoldxx]

Would it really be profitable to ramp up a suitable fleet, hangar, maintenance, nurses, admin, management, pilots etc to satisfy a 6 months INTERIM contract in the NT........

Either these guys have a near guarantee on the current tender or that is one hell of 6 month contract....!!

[havick]

the 6 month Interim contract is a double edged sword in itself.

It gives Careflight the opportunity to show the NT Govt their capability (not just on paper), but it also gives them 6 months to balls something up and put a bad taste in their mouth.

So nothing is ever a done deal until it's a done deal.

[xxgoldxx]

Fair enough...

but who is the recognized leader of Aus (SE and ME) aeromed services in Aus and why does the (northern) NT Gov seem so reluctant to make such a obvious choice...

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Tenders have to be delt with in a fashion that gives all plares a fair chance. On the face of it Central section would have to be the obvious choice however expect very competitive tenders from SE Section, Pelair, Pearl, CHC maybe and perhaps even NJS.

Things are tough out there these days and players will be going for economy of scale to reduce costs. SE Section will be hungry after losing out to pearl in EN but maybe they'll be scared to step on CS's towes. If twins should win out in the NT non B200 players will have increased costs of training, admin and parts store. Lots of extra costs here over a tenderer who already runs the B200 especially proline training.
SN

[maxgrad]

Pel Air in EN not Pearl.

[Wally Mk2]

The SE Contract now a done dinner never had the option of SE airframes for various reasons. The Ambo's union in the original contract I believe said they would not have their member fly in SE craft for safety reasons, & rightly so:ok:

I believe (& it's only that) that IF a SE airframe (PC) does go down with fatalities then that would wake up a few money driven people whom make these silly decisions, only hope that I am totally wrong. We often see that in life that nothing is seriously done about such a crazy decision until 'after' the event. people die at railway xings, they fix it 'afterwards'.
All of course personal opinion/s & it's about choice, personal choice:) They don't make SE Airliners (even though they could with the pwr of today's donks)for the most obvious reason! :ok:

Wmk2

[Moniker]

interesting news article from earlier today

CareFlight's secret deal | Northern Territory News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/04/09/138241_ntnews.html)

[betaman]

Yesterday, CareFlight director Ian Badham refused to discuss Australasian Jet's involvement in the contract.
"It is not particularly relevant," he said.
"People will be dealing with CareFlight. They won't be dealing with Australasia Jet or Pel-Air or any other company."

I would have thought it would have been particularly relevant, in light of the Norfolk accident, who CareFlight sub contracts the fixed wing flying to especially on a govt funded contract.:hmm:

[Dog One]

Smells like another NT Government cock up. They seem to have unlimited funds to waste.

[pc12togo]

Was not the last and only aeromed aircraft go down with fatalities a twin

[xxgoldxx]

from the article

But Mr Sawyer stressed that Australasian Jet was an "entirely different" company to the failed Territory subsidiary - Australasian Jet NT. "There was a remote link, but it was a stand-alone business," he said.
"Australasian Jet NT took over a fledging business. It was basically a rebadge of an existing business. We didn't have much of a chance on that one."


Ausjet still paints a pretty rosy picture of its NT operation on its website... would that be "entirely different" or "prepared for the future"...

[opsdude90]

Gotta love how they try to cut their links with the NT Business!

AusJet and AusJet NT - They were owned, managed and operated by the same close knit team... how exactly does that make them entirely different!

[PLovett]

"Australasian Jet NT took over a fledging business. It was basically a rebadge of an existing business. We didn't have much of a chance on that one."

I'm gobsmacked by that.

Fledgling business.....like hell. It was formerly Northern Air Charter which had been around for a few years (I was at their 5th anniversary bash and they were around for a few more years after that) and there were a few predecessors to NAC.

When Australasian Jet took over NAC in substitution of debt it was a failing enterprise and they did nothing to help that situation with poor management.

To try and distance themselves from that failed effort is nothing but spin. It is the same lot again.

[Jamair]

pc12togo If you refer to the Mt Gambier crash, sadly yes, the only RFDS aircraft to crash in Australia was a B200.....however (as anyone who has read the ATSB report would know) the crash had nothing to do with the number of engines.

It was NOT the only aeromedical aircraft to crash in this country; not by a LONG shot. I can name at least nine more off the top of my head, at least four of which were single engine aircraft.

Do you have a point?:hmm:

[Jamair]

My point (for those who like ecovictim that didn't get it) was that contrary to the previous post from pc12togo, there has been many more than ONE aeromed prang in Australia. Of singles, twins and even quad-engine-configured aircraft. The number of engines was not the issue, the number of crashes was.

Do you have a point in that reply? It was a bit abstract for me to pick up.

BTW, I currently fly both PC12 and B200; I have no interest in turning this into yet another pointless single vs twin debate. Perhaps those with chips on their shoulders on that topic could start their own thread on the subject?:rolleyes:

I see valid questions raised on the NT aeromed contract and would love to see those questions asked and answered in a more formal setting....say, NT parliament?:ooh:

[Josh Cox]

sadly yes, the only RFDS aircraft to crash in Australia was a B200

Jamair, not quite true, there has been others, what of the PA31 that hit the gantry at Kalgoorlie ?.

[sumtingwong]

Jamair, couldn't agree more.

If you fly PC-12 and love em, fill your boots, that's great. The thread is not about this, same goes for one eyed B200 lovers.

The pilots up here currently doing aeromed on the soon to be defunct NTAMS/Pearl contract have their own opinions about what they'd prefer to fly. After all, they are the ones up here doing aeromed.

What I'm sure we'd like to know is
1/What is Pearl going to do with its current aeromed pilots? Who/how many to be redundant/kept on/not paid/retrained?

2/What is the interim and or new operator (TBA) going to operate? (ok the interim operator has said King Airs but given their commencement date of 1/7/10 where are they going to source the 5 aircraft needed and more importantly how will they kit them out with stretchers, med oxy including the plumbing required, stands and braces for monitors etc

3/ T and C. Lets talk turkey. We know were going to be offered a pineapple to bend over too but the question is will they use the spiky end?:ugh:

[Jamair]

FMN was the only RFDS crash with a fatality that I am aware of - I've not heard of the incident you refer to.

[Jamair]

sumtingwong, I am given to understand that the Ausjet boss is currently in the process of buying the required aircraft in Europe (Sweden or thereabouts?)

Have you applied to the 'new' operator IAW their recent ad? I hope you get a gig; that all the Pearl drivers are looked after. None of this is the fault of the drivers.....as usual.

[sumtingwong]

Jamair, thanks for that.

Yeah I'd heard they were sourcing them from Poland (wonder if the altimetry will be in metres)? I worry that they wont have them aeromedically ready by 1/7/10 which will mean guess who will be expected to manually lift patients on stretchers by themselves. (you know the nurses and certainly the doc's wont help).

[Josh Cox]

RFDS Eastern Gold Fields, at the time WA was three sections.

Victoria - of course they were in the NW, Derby ?,
Eastern Gold Fields - eastern bits, and,
West ops ( I think ), JT, GEL, CAR and MEK ?.

Jamair, do you also fly the C208 ?.

[longrass]

Closed at 2pm today:

Closing List:Tenderers Jayrow Helicopters Pty LtdCapiteq Limited t/as Airnorth & Aspen Medical Pty LimitedCareFlight (NSW) LimitedRoyal Flying Doctor Service of Australia (Central Operations) IncorporatedTop End Aero Medical Services Pty LtdCorporate Aircraft Charter Pty LtdMedSat Technologies Pty LtdRotorwest Pty Ltd t/as Heliwest Group & Pel-Air Aviation Pty LimitedLloyd Helicopters Pty Ltd T/as CHC Helicopters (Aust)Top End Aero Medical Pty Ltd (T.E.A.M)Lloyd Helicopters Pty Ltd T/as CHC Helicopters (Aust)

[Xcel]

which one of those is Pearl's alter ego??

[frigatebird]

Big name for a group tenderer..
Whatever happened to white space and punctuation..?

[sumtingwong]

So has Pearl re tendered? They don't appear to be on the list.:hmm:

[Moniker]

has Pearl re tendered?

they apparently have, but not as you know them :oh:

[maxgrad]

Theres life Jim, but not as we know it!

Hat, coat, beer,depart

[longrass]

Big name for a group tenderer.. Whatever happened to white space and punctuation..?


whatever happened to you finding out for yourself clown?

Top end aero med is a newly registered company, guessing a paspaley venture

[frigatebird]

If that's your attitude, you're welcome to the company you keep. :suspect:

Surprised you didn't use textspeak..





P.S.
Just clowning around..
Lifting the melon truck out of the septic tank -

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/General/Liftingthemelontruckoutoftheseptic7.jpg

[JMEN]

Extracted from ASIC's database at AEST 10:11:58 on 17/04/2010
Name TOP END AERO MEDICAL SERVICES PTY LTD
ACN
143 075 441
Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date 12/04/2010
Next Review Date 12/04/2011
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office Darwin NT 0800
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

extracted from ASIC's database at AEST 10:12:56 on 17/04/2010
Name TOP END AERO MEDICAL PTY LTD
ACN
142 235 032
Type Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date 24/02/2010
Next Review Date 24/02/2011
Status Registered
Locality of Registered Office Parap NT 0820
Jurisdiction Australian Securities & Investments Commission

[longrass]

Your a smart little cookie aren't you....

Have you got a job yet?

[frigatebird]

What's it to you either way..?

[megle2]

Fb
Don't you love these kids
Heaven help us!

[sumtingwong]

Great! A thread that is important to those who are directly affected most likely closed because a few have a problem with the size of their penis.

[frigatebird]

sumting
For the ones with that, then, we can only pity. The best outcome for a car accident, or any person requiring medical assistance in the N.T., is a reliable and prompt evacuation system to a centre with facilities. If your politics, personalities, and company manoeuvrings prohibit provision of that in a cost effecive manner - then the rest of Australia can only pity the people calling the shots there.. and those who live there..

[maxgrad]

I pity more the communities/stations/towns that req the service but are being led astray by petty politics and government meandering and red tape.
Crying shame the staff who choose to do this type of work are pinned to the wall on a daily basis.

[frigatebird]

An occasion I am familiar with where the prompt professionalism and skill of dedicated Aero Med staff saved a young mans life was in late 2003, when I got a call from the sister to get to Tennant Creek to help on their property. The Head Stockmans son had had an accident on a four wheeler on the service road alongside the new railway. Unknown to him and his school chum on the back, a contractor had just graded new table drains to shed the water away from the rail line across the road at intervals. They drove headfirst into one at speed. The lad was smashed about the head and unconcious, with liver and internal injuries, and the friend had both arms broken among other injuries. He had a mobile phone but couldn't even press the buttons with his nose to call for help, but staggered a couple of miles to alert the family. On the air evacuation, the unconcious lad's breathing (or heart) stopped, but they got him started again. After a brief stop in Alice Springs to stabilize him, he was later flown on to Adelaide where he spent many months recovering. His mother and father also went to be with him. It was touch and go for some time. Well done people, thanks from all our families. Don't let the petty politics prevent the efficient provison of this Essential Service.. frigate

[Dances With Dingoes]

BTW, I currently fly both PC12 and B200; I have no interest in turning this into yet another pointless single vs twin debate. Perhaps those with chips on their shoulders on that topic could start their own thread on the subject?:rolleyes:


I tried that, but the subject just will not die.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/408002-flying-pc-12-like-having-sex-because.html

I once had a checkie simulate a second engine fail on me in a B200. Full glide approach. not a sensation I ever want to experience for real. Had to buy new undies before I could buy him lunch and a beer.

We all have preferences but if I was faced with flying 'the other one' or being out of work, well I guess I would. It is not like anyone in NT (pilots) or any other section will have much of a choice in the matter.

DD

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Any word on how the tenders are going? Apparently the new operator is supposed to start at the end of January 2011. I hope they have ordered the aircraft.
SN

[roundaboutway]

Anyone know the rough delivery time of a 200. Do they still make the Cargo door model?

What about the pc-12? Im sure the wait would be a lot less than a new King Air.

[morno]

New King Air, approximately 12-18 months. Yes they still make the cargo door models.

New PC-12, not entirely sure, but pre GFC it was about 2 years.

morno

[Counter-rotation]

RE Aircraft:

I think there will be lifeport equipped aircraft used, until the "new" ones arrive. Are the "new" ones really new, or just low time? And how many hours is low time?

RE Crew:

Can anyone offer information here now, about what Careflight proposes to pay it's fixed wing pilots? I know some who have been "interviewed", but no information on pay?!

Ditto for what sort of hours/working conditions they intend to put in place. Some of the nurses have told me that nursing staff levels will be FAR below what they are now, so it's a fair bet that the intent may also be to reduce pilot numbers too, with a FMRS system that will be, ah, not too compatible with a life outside of work, for those who partake. :ouch:

This could of course be untrue, but again, there is no information so far, from this prospective employer - even to those who have expressed interest! :confused:

CR

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Apparently Beach cant supply within 18 months, Pilatus can do the Platypus in 12. Surely common sense will prevail. A/C will be new new I reckon. No one seems to be playing around trying to source good low timers in numbers any more.

Edit: Conditions, remember they have to crew it yet. Good crew don't come cheap these days and they'll suffer if they recruit and pay poorly.

SN

[maxgrad]

The contract has allowance for airframes up to 8 yrs old.
We are dealing with NT Heath and the NT Govt.
Please tighten your seat belts and hang the heck on!

[bushy]

I hope the crewing is not based on selling ICUS to newbies, as has been done in N.T. by at least one company.

[maxgrad]

Want to state a rumour Bushy?
Are you talking an Aeromed operator....?

[Counter-rotation]

I hope the crewing is not based on selling ICUS to newbies

Bloody oath! :ouch:

For ICUS, you still need captains anyway... :D

I reckon I'd want MORE to supervise another low time driver in that operation, than I would to just do it myself!

CR

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Any news yet boys, must be getting close to an announcement?

The RFDS National Head Office is banging on about the RFDS being one entity in the not to distant future. Perhaps they should have used the best they have from each section to tender for this gig, its a big tender providing both nurses and doctors. Right up the RFDS's alley. If they don't win this contract it says something about their resource management in my opinion. Its time to move on and create a national structure thats competitive in the future, otherwise they will be left behind.
SN

[Under Dog]

Soup Nazi
Couldn't agree more , it should be one enity but unfortunetly the ego's within management that exist with in each section won't allow this to happen.
You wouldn't be able to bring them all together and put them in the same room with each other.

The Dog:=

[Stationair8]

Everything in place for start of the six month interim contract?

A couple of interesting articles in this months Australian Aviation about the contract and who is tendering etc.

What's the bet in Thursday's Nanny Territory news, a front page story about Careflight and their "new" Kingairs saving some poor souls life with an epic flight, which will give the Nanny Territory government a warm feeling and everone lives happily ever after?

Note term "new" is used loosely and does imply that the said B200 were built in this decade.

Any truth in the rumour Careflight will attend a letter openibg along as the media are present?

A few experts on Pprune like to bag Pearl, but at least the guys got the job done over the years without too many dramas, incidents etc.

Hope the new contracter can do likewise!

[Stationair8]

What are the B200's callsign's?

[Pindan warrior]

Hearing that the Careflight b200's still dont have an MEL.
How do you provide a 24 hour service from remote locations without on site engineers and no MEL???
Hearing that long hours are being worked, longer than reasonable and that A/c are carrying openly groundable defects because no MEL relief.

[pa60ops]

Well its pretty simple isn`t it - you dont fly the thing if its not MEL and thats cause it will end up being AOG!!! You dont want to be sitting down with the CASA ramp guys explaining this one do you, Hmmm???

These experienced aeromed pilots and crew can`t be replaced that easily, can they?

Of course - this is a rumour site after all.....:hmm:

[Stationair8]

No headlines in NT News about sick kiddy being saved or little old ladies being helped across the road by Careflight pilots or doctors?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So does anyone know why Careflight were chosen to caretake the show till the contract is awarded?
SN

[Pindan warrior]

Word is that the Nt Government have extended the decision date by a further 3 months.
I guess this will also allow them time to organise an MEL for the fleet!
apart from a faintly disbeliving comment, I'm suprised that no one is saying anythng about the potential horror story unfolding - a 24 hour medical service, operating from remote locations with no engineering support, inexperienced pilots and no MEL.

[Wally Mk2]

Well Wally here is available for consultancy work should they want expert advice:ok:

'PW' no body wants to say such things so we shall pray for all concerned:)


Wmk2

[fifty]

If there is single grain of truth in delaying the tender for 3 months, it becomes clear that Careflight is the winner. The NTG is clearly giving them a trial run.

[The Voice]

The NTG is clearly giving them a trial run or perhaps all of the tenders received are over the NTG budget hence the NTG are on the back foot scratching heads and wondering WTF to do next!! :ugh:

[Capt Claret]

Oi, Voice (G'day), how'd you become so cynical 'bout he NTG? ;) :p

[captwawa]

soo what are the Pearl Airmed Pilots up to they gone across?

[The Voice]

Clarrie my dear!! LOOONG time .. better Q may be not how, but perhaps when. Or even better, why?

[Counter-rotation]

Pindan Warrior:
Word is that the Nt Government have extended the decision date by a further 3 months
Can you possibly expand a bit on this statement? "Word is" - that's pretty general, I'm quite interested to know about the bona fides of your statement (and I mean that in a reliability sense, not an honesty sense) :ok:

pa60ops
Well its pretty simple isn`t it - you dont fly the thing if its not MEL and thats cause it will end up being AOG!!! You dont want to be sitting down with the CASA ramp guys explaining this one do you, Hmmm???
Mate (and I'm sure you know this) all over the country there are aircraft flying with defects that have not been recorded - either intentionally or otherwise. Now I'm NOT saying Careflight are doing this, but I am saying that in each and every instance it should be stopped. Hopefully (but I don't hold my breath) the "CASA ramp guys" will do that, and hopefully pilots will not participate in that sort of thing (back to my perfect world now, bye ;) )

The Voice:
or perhaps all of the tenders received are over the NTG budget hence the NTG are on the back foot scratching heads and wondering WTF to do next!! :ugh:

Ah, I've seen this before - "The Voice" appears out of nowhere, and makes a statement of great insight, that hits it right on the head! (In my opinion anyway) :D
Perhaps others have thought it, and he's the first to post it!

CR

[FGD135]

Word is that the Nt Government have extended the decision date by a further 3 months

The NT government (actually DHF, Department of Health and Families) have written to all the bidders, advising them that there will be a further three month delay.


The NTG is clearly giving them a trial run

Extremely unlikely. So if they don't like them, do they install someone else and give them a three month trial as well?

The far more likely explanation for the delay would have to be along the lines proposed by The Voice. That is, that everybody's bids are way more than what the NTG had earmarked.

Can the NTG afford 4-5 new King Airs (or PC-12s)? No way. Given the (tiny) size of the NT economy, about 1 new turboprop would be all they could afford!

To me, it seems highly plausible that the reason for the delay up to now, (and this extension to the delay) is because the NTG is waiting for an answer from the federal government on funding assistance.

The federal government has just "changed", as we all know, and now there is an election in the wings. How else do you explain that the NTG somehow knows that this decision will take a further three months?


soo what are the Pearl Airmed Pilots up to they gone across?

Some have gone across (about 3-4, I believe). The majority haven't.

[Dances With Dingoes]

Fifty
If there is single grain of truth in delaying the tender for 3 months, it becomes clear that Careflight is the winner. The NTG is clearly giving them a trial run.

Not so sure about that one. Given we are looking at a federal election some time soon, any small swing in government in the NT could prove most advantageous to one particular operator in the arena. If this is correct, the longer this process takes the better (for them), and then we may well see who is in who's pockets and just who is touching their toes :=

DD

[plasticmerc]

after following this thread for a while now I have come to the knowlegde alot of people have different opinions on everything which is what makes aviation so much fun!
The extension of the trial is probably the NTG shock at how much it actually costs to operate 4 new or revised nearly new aircraft.
Years ago when the now ex contrator to the government went in and said these aircraft are old and we highly recommend new/newer airframes with newer avionincs the NTG went we can't afford that!
What sthe next best thing????
The NT has some of the worst weather conditions in OZ a lot of unprepared strips and alot of icing conditions just have a look at the fuseales of the now defunct airframes. Aircraft get used and abused day in and day out.
the aircraft were sent in to what I recall a 'D' check but as the first a/c ate away a fair chunk of the budget and also the available down time to do all the mods the work packages were scaled down. I mean the depth of the work required was lowered, They did a good job for the time and resources given.
The biggest problem they had with the aircraft was the avionics, old wiring, and hard to get spares stuff that you just can't have sitting there all the time. Even if you had 1 sometimes you needed 4, thats just the way the game goes.
To hear the current operator doesn't even have an MEL how are they operating?
mind you aircon, pressurisation and wx are all groundable defects regardless of MEL or not.
But hey lets not forget why the contract was removed from the contractor failure to fly in and out of Katherine with a wallaby issue, how many people have hit someting of that size before?
It's not a nice feeling imagine hitting one on t/o or landing, i have seen the damage done by such an animal and larger on a king air and lets just say they both lost! The a/c does fly again but...
We all want to play with new and modern a/c and peoples passions are always great to see. It pleases me to know that the great Aussie rivalary goes far beyond the holden ford arguement!
Aeroplanes cost millions of dollars both in there standard fitout and as aeromed aircraft go in there highly modified status.
Who wants to spend millions of dollars on something that the client doesn't want to pay for.
In business they teach you many things don't over capitalise never do anything the customer doesnt want, and always try to over achieve with the resources you have. Make the customer happy but rememebr not to send yourself broke doing it.

[maxgrad]

But hey lets not forget why the contract was removed from the contractor failure to fly in and out of Katherine with a wallaby issue, how many people have hit someting of that size before?

Are you having a lend or do you truly believe this?
Serious question.

The general public misunderstands the whole situation regarding the wallaby plague.

[tric]

What a lot of people don't realise is that the ex contractor's hands were tied. Their insurance company refused to cover the aircraft flown into the strip unless the Wallaby situation was resolved. :ugh:

Added to this was the flying rate was far in excess of the contracted rate. This added to the fact that the NTG would only cough up for the cheap plane option spelt disaster.

Clearly the NTG has a lot to answer for in this whole :mad:fight. But what is the best defence? offence of course, make it seem that all the problems were that of the contractor and its aircraft.:=

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Fact is this is an expensive game. If they want to do it properly with a view to the long term viability and cost savings then new airframes with consecutive serial numbers are the go. You can fly them hard for at least 12 years and drag them out for a few more if need be. Not to mention in this day and age the treveling public, who are paying the bills, expect a decent level of service and quality for their money.

When you start with used airframes you invariably get differences in equipment which creates stores costs and they are half worn out before you start. Add to this the cost of finding and checking them out, forget it. New is the go.
SN

[Counter-rotation]

Maxgrad:
The general public misunderstands the whole situation regarding the wallaby plague.

I'll see you that and raise you one!!

The general public misunderstands the whole situation regarding the wallaby plague - because they are fed sh!t by the likes of the NT News, who in turn are fed sh!t by the Government who when it comes to spin make Shane Warne look like Trevor Chappell!

Why? Read Tric's post above - it's RIGHT ON THE MONEY ('scuse the pun!) :D

CR

[The Voice]

so, here we are, 59 days sans NT Airmed as we knew it.

What's been happening then? I'll bet it hasn't been all smooth and happy flying. I'll even bet there's a certain association that MAY just be a tad more unhappy with the present 'service', let alone the staff at some remote communities that may just want to take back some of the criticism shovelled out at former staff ..

NO decision yet I see on the lucky preferred tenderer ..

BUT - lo and behold advertising by Careflight for staff - fixed wing drivers, nurses, logistics and admin staff - all on contract now until end of June 2011 (or longer - as per the add) ..

now, a cynic would say - "There's a surprise!" :sad:

[Pindan warrior]

Word is that CareFlight have (again) been knocked back for their AOC variation to include Kingair by CASA and are having to fully subcontract the owners of the aircraft, Austrasian Jet, to operate the service.
That will interest local aviation companies who are still owed a lot of money from the last time Ausjet were based in Darwin.
The myriad of snippets about mishaps and people dieing is growing into a really sad tale.

[baron_beeza]

Rumour network I realise..... the word I am getting from the hangar floor is that all is going incredibly well.
Perhaps the engineers are getting better versed in the art of spin these days.

[FGD135]

the word I am getting from the hangar floor ...

Hangar? What hangar?

[baron_beeza]

sorry pilot forum.....your doing things a little different,- hanger.


;)

The Careflight operation in Darwin.

[FGD135]

baron_beeza,

There was nothing wrong with your spelling. My comment was sarcastically pointing out that there is no hangar.

We obviously have different sources. Mine says they're doing it tough.

Gove base has been without its plane for 4-5 days now (due breakdowns of other aircraft). This would *never* have happened during the Pearl years.

[Capt Claret]

Hanger didn't look quite right so I had to consult the AOED.


Hanger: a person or thing that hangs.
Hangar: a building with extensive floor area, for housing aircraft etc.

[frigatebird]

See Clarrie.. you DID know that..
That's why you had doubts about that 'e'.. :ok:

(Some things just STAY in them ole brain cells....)

[baron_beeza]

I was not having a dig at anyone's spelling in particular....it is just that we see the word misspelt so many times in this forum that I figured it may make more sense to some. Some may have noticed the misuse of the word 'your' also.

I have to admit that if I see either word crop up in a reply then I make the assumption the writer is either a wannabe or worse.

Surely these guys are not Commercial pilots.... no way !..

As for the Aeromed operation, - it was a few weeks ago when I heard it was going smoothly. There may have been a fair bit of spin applied to that ball though.

I have to agree about the build-up and wet season, - things most certainly are not about to get any easier for the operators up here.
I feel it interesting that several operators are manoeuvring about and getting prepared for the next possible go at a contract.
Interesting times indeed..

[maxgrad]

not for employees of said establishments.
Govt seem to like stuffing with lives........Pilots, nurses and the Top End people who need the service.

[frigatebird]

Which set me 'thinking.. (dangerous for an old codger)
The trouble with 'ee's' (sorry thread drift)
'reminisceing then.. probably told this story before..

Was once sent to Toulouse to do a refresher on their sim because I hadn't flown the ATR for a year. (on French aid money, too, - Viva La France)
Was coming to grips with it again, but got distracted when the Italian sim instructor started hollering " EE A ESS, EE A ESS." Flying that pesky sim, with the airspeed not where I wanted it, and racking my brain for a procedure, either normal or emergency, I just couldn't think what he was on about. E.A.S. ?? Eventually the penny dropped, and things were sorted.
When I was settled back in on line, and had some spare time from the tech manuals again, I enrolled in local Alliance Francaise classes to learn a little about the culture and language that the English side is half descended from. So that was one way (my way), to resolve the difference between the 'ee's' and the 'eye's..
Understanding differences between cultures and pronunciations is no load to carry.

[Counter-rotation]

Interim contract extended? Oh surprise surprise...

[rustywings]

Any news on the NT contract?
How are the current pilots enjoying the conditions etc are they getting looked after?
Are the night time ops happening out of Kathrine?
Who is now running the international medevac side of things out of YPDN?
:rolleyes:

[AussieNick]

just out of curiosity, are Pearl Av still running the international/Interstate medical transfers? Have been watching a fast mover parked outside their hanger in DTown flying off at night for the last week.

[Dances With Dingoes]

Aussie Nick, I believe that jet is actually belonging to Care Flight International.I may be wrong but if that is true then it is terribly sporting of Uncle Nick to be supporting the competition like that.

Gees he is a good bloke.

[NTChicky]

DwD

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

Chick :ugh:

[tinpis]

Out of/ten, is the service better/worse than the old days when it seemed to operate ok using...... NOMADS!

[roundaboutway]

Have heard that one of the pilots was flying the 200 with only a C90 Endorsement.