Removing co-pilot's seat for loading?

[PlankBlender]

I have a question for all you experienced aircraft loaders :}

The W&B of my 1979 Piper Archer is such that the more I load in the front, the closer I can get to MTOW.

My question is: Can I take out the co-pilot's seat on a private flight with only myself on the aeroplane? The flight manual only says "The rear seats can be removed to carry bulky items." It doesn't say anything about the right hand front row seat.

The plan is to put a heavy suitcase where the co-pilot seat normally is (and chuck said seat in the baggage compartment where I cannot load much weight in a heavily loaded situation, but there is plenty of space), of course properly securing the suitcase so it cannot move and slide in the way of rudder pedals or flap handle or such like. Any luggage carried in the front would not be higher than the actual seat, so it would not obstruct the exit.

IMHO this would be far superior to carrying a suitcase on said co-pilot's seat, as that could potentially obstruct my own exit path in case I need to get out in a hurry, even if I could somehow make sure such a case on the seat doesn't interfere with full and free movement of the control column.

Is there any kind of general rule that you cannot take out a control seat, or something like that?

Any advice is greatly appreciated! :ok:

[DanArcher]

as the flight manual doesn't prohibit the removal of the seat & as long as you restrain the cargo in accordance with CAO 20.16.02 there shouldn't be any problems, at the end of the day being a pvt operation go ya hardest :ok:

[sms777]

As DA said for private ops, do whatever you like as long as your cargo is restrained as per CAO rules. However i would mount a small hatchet or an axe in case you have to break one of the windows in order to get out and would even consider removing the right control column to prevent jamming by cargo coming loose.
When you start flying bigger cargo planes you will find there is a crew door or escape hatch fitted and look under your seat to find the axe for the same reason.

:ok:

[PlankBlender]

Thanks for that, guys :ok:

CAO 20.16.2 6.1 makes me think, though:

Carriage of cargo in pilot compartments is prohibited except that in aircraft having a maximum take-ff weight not more than 5700 kg, cargo may be carried in an unoccupied control seat.

Sort of implies that you can only carry cargo on an unoccupied control seat in a pilot compartment, i.e. removing a control seat would not be allowed. Or am I being paranoid? :confused: Is there even such a thing as a 'pilot compartment' in an Archer?

[11percent]

make sure your aircrafts loading system allows for it. If not, you are in breach of not operating aircraft inaccordance with the AFM, and therefore your insurance is void.

[DanArcher]

make sure your aircrafts loading system allows for it.

for operating with a front seat removed??

although I'm applying a bit of logic to my reasoning (hope casa doesn't find out :ugh:) one would imagine that complying with the CAO's & having the a/c within in's CofG range would suffice. most light a/c manuals I've come across don't address removing the front seat in their loading systems, yet sky dive operators fly their a/c with just the left seat & are able to get insurance

[ResumeOwnNav]

Carriage of cargo in pilot compartments is prohibited except that in aircraft having a maximum take-off weight not more than 5700 kg, cargo may be carried in an unoccupied control seat.

PlankBlender, in your situation 20.16.2.6.1 implies that you can only carry cargo in the cabin of aircraft less than 5700kg and if so it may be carryed on an unoccupied seat.

The Archer is less than 5700kg so you may carry it in the cabin and it may be carryed on an unoccupied seat. You do not have to carry it on a seat. With the chair removed the cargo must be secured as to 20.16.2.4.1. Cargo may obstruct an emergency exit if suitable other exits are available, 20.16.2.4.2. There is a table in part 105 somewhere that tells you how many exits are required for number of occupants.

[11percent]

Dan,

yes they do, and their load system supports it. else it is illegal. call a loading controller and ask!

[bushy]

Many skydiving operations have operated without the front seat (or any other pax seats) fitted. Many Cessnas then have a forward C of G when the skydivers exit, and the pilot runs out of trim for landing.
Many mail runs carried freight on the front RH seat. It can be legal, but it is not good.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Curious,

how does a cessna with one pilot, no pax seats and FA fuel run out of trim on landing compared to one in a standard config?:confused::confused::confused:

[bushy]

They have a forward c of g, and often land nosewheel first.

[Stacko]

Also, some stuff might not be explicitly written - u may have to look close at multiple sections of the POH/AFM.

I'm not too sure about Piper but on the light Cessna stuff you look not only in the Weight and Balance Section but also in the comprehensive equipment list. Cessna have a list and items annotated "-R" are required items and cannot be removed despite their ease of doing so.

For example a C172 R can have the co-pilots seat removed and the co-pilots door. But not the Pilots door even tho it is just as easily removable.