Fright test....

[DanArcher]

G'day All,

A particular flying school in the sydney area is telling me that VNC's can no longer be used on a CPL flight test!!!! due to some new CASA ruling, Whilst I know CASA are guilty of some stupid things surely this is just the school getting it a%#e about??!?!?!


Also whilst I'm here, most schools have the Idea that for the CPL flight test the maximum amount of time for flight planning is 1hr prior to departure, does anyone know where this comes from?

the ATO manual states the following


Applicants should be given the task (route and conditions) no less than 1 hour before intended commencement of the test. The operational task will be a simulated passenger carrying charter flight of not more than 4 sectors.

When presenting the task for the proposed flight, ATOs must ensure that planning the task, including performance calculations, can be achieved by the average student in an hour.

If the applicant does not complete the planning task in the allotted time, the ATO must make a discretionary decision as to the continuation of the test.

[300Series]

"Also whilst I'm here, most schools have the Idea that for the CPL flight test the maximum amount of time for flight planning is 1hr prior to departure, does anyone know where this comes from?"

Applicants should be given the task (route and conditions) no less than 1 hour before intended commencement of the test. The operational task will be a simulated passenger carrying charter flight of not more than 4 sectors.

When presenting the task for the proposed flight, ATOs must ensure that planning the task, including performance calculations, can be achieved by the average student in an hour.

If the applicant does not complete the planning task in the allotted time, the ATO must make a discretionary decision as to the continuation of the test."


I think you just answered your own question

300

[DanArcher]

not quite, most schools I've spoken to are under the impression that 1hr is the maximum time

the ATO manual only states that route & condition must be provided at least 1hr before departure & that the average student should be able to complete this within the hour, So in other words there is nothing in the ATO manual which precludes the ATO from allowing more time

is there something else where I've been unable to find?

[Cap'n Arrr]

Dunno about the VNC, but schools teach one hour preparation, because you can be given just one hour to prepare on the test day. I'd rather my school teach me to plan in 1 hour and get the route a few hours before than the other way around:ok:

Edit: Just saw your second post, technically the ATO can give the route to you at any time, however he must give at least one hour. Whether they give you one hour or more is entirely up to them

[Tempo]

Yeah I also heard that the new 'casa ruling' also bans VTC's and WAC charts (as well as VNC's) from the VFR commercial test. I also heard that ERC and Jepp/DAP approach plates are to be banned for instrument rating from next year.






Cmon.....why would casa ban a VNC chart for a commercial test??? Absolutely ridiculous.

[equal]

why don't you ask them to provide you with the specifics of the ruling, i.e. a casa website address? i never used them (VNCs) due to no coverage in my area. i dont know how detailed your airspace is but you could always pencil in coverage on a wac with a protractor like i did.

[muffman]

From the CPL Licence Application form:


The flight test may be conducted in two parts:

Part 1 – General flying of about one hour;
Part 2 – A simulated charter flight of about 2.5 hours.

Part 2 must include:
- flight planning; completed within 1 hour of advice of the route

(my emphasis)

It's well worth reading this form before you do the test. It provides very specific guidance about what you can be tested on. No VNCs sounds like a load of sh!t to me. Use whatever visual chart you think is best.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Perhaps what was meant was that VNCs are not legally required for any flight?

[Jerr]

Hi

Just did my CPL flight test successfully 6 weeks ago. My school told me to make use of all resources for the flight including the CPL test.

However during the training my instructor would turn off the GPS, the VOR and ADF - am rated on those for Night VFR, so that I would rely on my map reading and correlating ground features to the map.

During the training I had to draw up my flight plan, out of Moorabbin, on the VTC, VNC, WAC, and ERC low.

For several flights, the instructor would look at these maps, then keep the VTC and VNC in him folder for the flight. The reason... well you will next be flying up North entirely off the WAC, I want you to be able to use just the WAC.:ok:

I wonder if this is where the no use of VNC comes from, I cannot imagine CASA doing such a thing! A VNC is an excellent way to avoid busting CTA, which my testing officer set me up to do with one of the diversions in the CPL test.

Interestingly during the CPL test, I turned on all the aids, including the GPS and testing officer turned off the GPS when he asked me time and distance to one off my landing airstrips. He wanted me to calculate this from the map.:D

FWIW

Jerr

[glekichi]

As an instructor Ive recently been thrown into a region where the WAC is the only option.

And, what a useless map it is! The most recent edition has completely omitted power lines, one of the few realistic fix options available!!!

The scale is unrealistic for use in a practical manner during VFR operations.
Now in NT they might be reasonable, but Im talking about navigating through valleys a few hundred metres across.
Back in Unzud the 1:1mil maps have "For planning purposes only" stamped across them, for just this reason.

Yet, I still see the CFI's logic. Learn to navigate using this cr@p alone, and things will only get easier from there!

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

When I did my PPL navs a few years back several of my instructors pointed out some pretty big errors on the Perth VNC (silos on the wrong side of the road and tree farms on the wrong side of the road). I never liked it anyway and always found the combination of WAC, ERC, VNC to be more than sufficient. I carried the VNC in my bag just in case. I suppose that if your entire flight will stay on the VNC (or if you really need some extra detail) then it may be worth it, otherwise it seems like too much faffing about.

With regards to CPL pre-flight the one hour for planning may seem difficult at first but with practice you'll learn about what is important and what's not. If all else fails use TRACK = HDG (or hazard a guess of 5, 10, 15 degrees of correction) and TAS = GS then revise in the air. Of course, if you finish and you've still got time (or the Testing Officer isn't quite ready) keep working on it semi-discreetly.

Another great time saver (notice that it's not a short-cut): Work out your landing and take off distances at MTOW, 40 deg C, nil wind, a bit of slope (down for ldg up for T/O) and the Declared Density (choose the right season) of the highest aerodrome within reasonable distance. That way you save time having to calculate individually on the day. Be prepared for the Testing Officer to ask you prove it using the charts but this will happen outside of your one hour for planning.

I'd go on but one of the kiddies needs me (and I may be waffling on a bit). See these threads
1 (http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-aviation-questions/346074-quick-flight-planning-techniques.html)
2 (http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-aviation-questions/305286-flight-planning-question.html)

Good luck,

FRQ CB

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

With regards to not being allowed to use the VNC my understanding is that for navigating you just need to have the minimums and then anything else you choose to carry is up to you (mud maps for NVFR, Street Directory for finding and circling over the Testing Officer's ex-wife's new house:(, old ONC for areas covering multiple WACs, tourist maps for detailed navigation of a site etc etc etc).

FRQ CB

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And what is 'wrong' with using the VNC - or ANY OTHER 'AID' for that matter??

The VNC is 1:500 scale, has ALL of the NICE - 'CIRCLES' on it, with LL's, 'some' topographics - roads, pwr / rail lines etc, BLUE - for the 'water' - 'Baby-**** Green / Yellow' for the RMDR - VHF Freqs - ....AND.... its part of the AIP AUSTRALIA - it SAYS SO on the top front under the DATE etc. AND - - its FULL of 'SYMBOLS' ...

and....

Wait for it.....

Its issued by.....

AIRSERVICES AUSTRALIA...- all rights reserved worldwide!!

P.P.S. IF WE NOT ALLOWED to use them, then they should be issued FREE!!!

Just like in the 'Good Ole Days'.......:D:D:D

And.....if 'frinstance' ya didn't 'ave one when 'the inspector' called.....and HE rekoned ya needed one, Whaddya rekon He'd say???

Tell him to
GO AWAY I would venture...........

AND IT COSTS $11 to buy!! SO, WHY would you
NOT use it????:ugh::ugh::ugh:

JJEEEEZZZUUUSSS !!!! UNBELIEVEABLE!!!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

p.s. In my CPL Test days - we wern't allowed to use GPS either - it wasn't bloody invented then!!
But, we (I) did need to demonstrate a 'basic' understanding of the navaids of the time, although we (I) were (was) not 'graded' on them...

[DanArcher]

Thanks for all your thoughts & advise :ok:

I'll be having words with them about this no VNC bull....


Cheers

[Ando1Bar]

The old day VFR syllabus stated the candidate must be able to navigate using a 1:1,000,000 scale map (i.e a WAC). Those were not the exact words but I don't have an old syllabus handy.

The latest day VFR syllabus simply states:



Selects and prepares appropriate visual navigation charts suitable for the intended flight

Obviously a VNC could be suitable. Most ATOs have the opinion that a CPL test candidate should be able to navigate using a WAC. All that I've spoken to are happy for the candidate to use a VNC for assistance, but the WAC is the primary tool used for navigation.

As discussed above, WACs cover all of Australian, VNCs don't. How many fresh charter pilots are going to navigate within the area covered by a VNC? Probably not a lot.

For those who have difficulties using a WAC, it is time to harden the :mad: up.

[Spodman]

...i never used them (VNCs) due to no coverage in my area. My school (and tester) REQUESTED I not use the VNC, to ensure that I COULD navigate & handle the other stuff just using ERC, WAC & VTC. Seemed reasonable to me and had no great difficulties with it. Didn't have GPS either.

Get over it.

[equal]

disregard.

[Trojan1981]

Spodman

No VTC allowed either...

[compressor stall]

This is from my current WAC. Navigation fixes Glekichi, well I would dream of navigation fixes....! :}

http://www.remoteadventures.com/webpics/emptymap.jpg

[Capt Fathom]

I'll be having words with them about this no VNC bull....


You'll need to get used to being outside your comfort zone!

If you can't get through your CPL test without a VNC, you're deep in it!

As an aside. I did all my 70's CPL training in a C172. At the time, I had a bare C182 endorsement (maybe I should not have mentioned that at the time!).
The examiner (DoT) insisted I do my test in the C182.

It was a scramble, but I got through the test.

The examiner was Terry Gywnn-Jones. You youngsters wouldn't know him!

[DanArcher]

If you can't get through your CPL test without a VNC, you're deep in it!

Fair call, the larger scale & more info on the vnc is nice esp when at 500' agl, found it a little more challenging when the ground features in veiw couldn't be related to the wac because they weren't on there :ugh:

the 'what the' moment came when the instructor pulled out his vnc to find a derversion & then kept a close eye on his hand held gps :suspect:

[Capt Fathom]

instructor pulled out his vnc to find a derversion & then kept a close eye on his hand held gps

If he trained in NSW, what would you expect? Outside their comfort zone! :rolleyes:

[Trojan1981]

DA
Was the instructor one of those who learned at the same school?