View Full Version : Redundancies and Demotions at bmi

24th Nov 2001, 19:59
My mate who works for bmi, and of course independent sources of info like the other threads running about the lay offs, informs me that 109 bmi pilots are being made redundant and 55 will be moved from the left seat to the right seat.

Some of the guys at EMA who have only recently been promoted are a bit ticked off about this, having put a lot of work in to get the command. They are being replaced by Captains, more senior to them, who are moving back from London.

Now to my way of thinking these seat swops are in breach of the employment law as the jobs still exist and the guys who are being demoted are being treated unfairly by being replaced by guys from London. If the jobs were lost that is one thing but having someone else take your job over is different entirely.

Of course someone will say that the contract says that they can do this, but surely the contract cannot vary the law ?

24th Nov 2001, 20:38
That's the way the Agreement For Service works. Your friend was given a copy of the rules when he joined. Sorry I can't be more encouraging. Bad times for all of us!

MP :(

24th Nov 2001, 21:37
Sorry, but this is the world we live in now! At my company 31 pilots were furloughed or took voluntary leaves of absence, schedules were cut back approx 20%, one aircraft returned to the lessor and 12 junior Captains temporarily demoted back to the right seat. At least they still have a job. Aviation is very cyclical and all this has happened before.
Some of those Capts have already returned to the LHS after only a month and a half out of it, so there is light at the end of the tunnel. Sit tight, it will turn around. :)

25th Nov 2001, 02:12
AlexB757 - You sure that light at the end of the tunnel ain't a train coming the other way!

25th Nov 2001, 02:32
At bmi the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off as a cost savings measure.

Probably because the lights very existence is the result of restrictive practices bought about by selfish, overpaid aircrew who are hell bent on destroying the company.

25th Nov 2001, 13:04

"next to the bar":- I presume the only job YOU are capable of is propping it up.

That is the biggest load of B****cks I've ever read on this site! And some take a lot of beating!

I'll leave to my compatriots to make their comments as mine are unrepeatable!!!


25th Nov 2001, 13:32

I am surprised I have to point out the ironic nature of my post. I am one of the chosen many and resent being told that my unions views are pre-Murdoch. Especially as I am a new model wage slave!!!!

25th Nov 2001, 14:44

Are you calling into question the attitude of your fellow pilots as would appear in your first posting or are you having a go a BALPA who may have a "big picture"?

I felt your first post was offensive to the majority of my colleagues. If I have misread your intentions then I apologise. If it was directed at some of terms and conditions negotiated by the CC and BAPLA an e-mail to them may be a better course of action.

Yes, we have a few selfish pilots, we have our share of pre-madonnas etc etc but then show me an airline that doesn't.

MP ;)

25th Nov 2001, 16:32
I presume Miss Ciccone is a pre-madonna. And Mrs Ritchie a post-madonna?

25th Nov 2001, 17:23
Well, You know what I mean?


25th Nov 2001, 19:30
I'm surprised you have grasped the wrong end the stick quite so comprehensively. It's blindingly obvious that Stan is quoting, ironically, the comments made by a very senior member of our laughingly-entitled 'management'. (can't mention his name but it's almost the same as a high street purveyor of underpants).

BTW, it's not 'pre-madonna', which is meaningless but 'prima donna' - Italian for 'first lady'. :rolleyes:

25th Nov 2001, 21:20

I thought SD was making his own personal comments 'cos that's the way it can be interpreted. I'm not up to speed on the comments made by the other party.

Never was much good a Latin either!

MP :)

29th Nov 2001, 06:43
Just got back from another week being messed about so now am able to make it quite clear.

My comments were a weak attempt at perverse humour. I promise I wont try it again and I am very sorry to have caused MP to raise his BP. Seriously, MP do you think anyone in their right mind actually holds those views?

Irony: conveyance of meaning by words whose literal meaning is the opposite.

Nuff said I think.

29th Nov 2001, 06:54
Business is business, the junior guys just have to go to the end....what is so surprising?
After all, the company "could" go OUT of business, then WHAT...?

29th Nov 2001, 15:54

Let's put this one to rest. I apologise for the comments I made about you holding up the bar etc and over-reacting about the content of your posting.

However there are those, from the "109 club", that have remarked to me in private along those lines.


29th Nov 2001, 17:36

No problems, at the momnt we are all a little overwrought!.

For the record I am very pleased with the efforts of the Union and in common with many others in the crewroom feel that they have more than ably filled the managerial void in providing timely and sensible advice. The Union subs have, for the service provided during the past few weeks been excellent value. The CC should be praised for trying to keep a sound footing on the quicksand of company intentions.

29th Nov 2001, 20:00
Speaking from "below the line"on the seniority list, I have to say that although BALPA's heart may be in the right place, there have been very few positive results so far.

Then again, perhaps it's those "above the line" that could have done a bit more for those of us getting the chop...

Young Paul
30th Nov 2001, 15:31
It's Italian, not Latin.

Justin Abeaver
30th Nov 2001, 16:01
Any of you "below the line" might like to get an Employmet Tribunal to have a look at this.
Employment law seems exceptionally fair and balanced these days, and it may be, esp for the demoted Captains, that BMI must continue to pay a Captain's salary even if a demotion has occurred through no fault of the employee.

Max Pete please note that the law will over-ride any Employee Handbook.

Worth a go.

Try http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/emp.html

or http://www.smlawpub.co.uk/

30th Nov 2001, 19:24

The naivety of youth, so refreshing???

PS. Got the spelling right too.

MP :rolleyes:

Justin Cyder-Belvoir
30th Nov 2001, 20:18
Speaking from "below the line"on the seniority list, I have to say that although BALPA's heart may be in the right place, there have been very few positive results so far.

You should check the What have BALPA ever done for us thread.

30th Nov 2001, 21:14
Exile from Groggs

Are Italians live Latins or are live Latins dead Italians?

Somewhat confused MP :confused:

30th Nov 2001, 21:59
PAULDEGEARUP...You said it yourself in your posting, MORE SENIOR CAPTAINS moving up from London. Just because they work out of EMA doesn't mean they are any different from the rest of us.

There were many FO's more senior to Captains, but didn't have the hours and just got on with it. I think your mate should too.

Young Paul
2nd Dec 2001, 01:15
MP - whatever - but Latin ain't Italian ....

There is a substantial difference between working from EMA and LHR. The attitude of the pilots is different. The attitude of crewing to the pilots is different. ("Would you like some work from Standby today?" - guess where that was asked? Clue - not London. In fact, it was then a LHR pilot called out to cover the EMA flights). The attitude of the ground staff is different ("I don't think we could manage a slot 45 minutes away" - guess where I heard that? Clue - not London). The expectations of the passengers are different. The capacity of the airport is different.

Er, I guess that may have got the point over. It probably wasn't even what the previous correspondent was getting at !!!

[ 01 December 2001: Message edited by: Exile from Groggs ]

2nd Dec 2001, 13:42

Que? Utter tosh, hope you had a good time in the pub, but it seems to have rotted yer brain.

2nd Dec 2001, 15:17

The attitude people have to you is the reciprocol of your attitude to them. Bearing in mind Ark's comments I'll expand a little. Be nice to people and their nice back to you.

So there is an ATC delay, so, you cannot undo it so don't upset the messenger. We get delays at EMA as well. We sometimes get shoved in the hold when they are busy. That's life , wherever you are based.

Stay cool!


Young Paul
3rd Dec 2001, 01:04

Actually, it was the other way round. The dispatcher at EMA didn't think 45 mins was an achievable turnaround. This was with pax already off and cleaning under way.

I personally have no axe to grind with crewing. It would be nice to have a better ratio of duty hours to flying hours, but that's a structural problem, not a crewing one. However, I assert that there is a difference between the EMA and LHR base.

There is an urban semi-myth that somebody had just left the crew room at LHR to go home. Crewing rang crew dispatch and asked to talk to them. The crew dispatch officer said they had already left. The response from crewing was, "Well, can't you give them a call out of the window?" This causes much ironic laughter whenever it is recounted at LHR.

(For anybody who has lived their lives in the shady fields of Derbyshire, the staff car park at LHR is a 20 minute bus ride away. I think most people in fact walk further to the bus at LHR than they walk to their cars at EMA. Even since the new terminal was built there.)

I don't doubt that crewing have a virtually impossible, thankless task to do, maybe with inadequate resources. However, few people in crewing have any concept of what life is like south of Luton, or go to the trouble to find out. Few have actually operated duties in the way that crew have to, so have any idea what it is like to be messed around in this way. Also, they have fully swallowed the line that the phenomenal level of disruption that we have come to expect as normal is actually "the nature of the business." I have yet to have a satisfactory explanation as to why that ought to be from anybody. We have a published timetable and 90%+ of flights operate on the planned type. Don't tell me it's block windows - the fact that people use them is a symptom of the level of disruption, not the cause of it. The greatest stress in my job is associated with living with the continual suspicion that crewing are about to try and reschedule my life every day. Literally. This is real, pulse-increasing, gut-churning stress. If you have a family that you care about, and other responsibilities, then you may understand this stress. The rest of the job is easy. See the last "Flight Safety Focus" for a relevant article.

If I was being worked to the maximum, then the only changes that would be made would be to take flying/duty away. So stability would improve if we were worked harder. There's a happy thought.

Incidentally, I think the job is brilliant - I still can't believe that I am paid to fly - and, having been made redundant once (with most of my training costs paid for by a serious bank loan, and interest rates at 10.5%!), I am gutted for those people who find themselves in that position. But that doesn't mean things couldn't be better for us all.

Mr Angry from Purley
3rd Dec 2001, 01:37
Exile from Groggs

The answer is the experience levels within Crewing and doubtless Crews per aircraft come into it. Don't mock some young lad or ladette just because they've never seen the glitering lights of LHR...
:mad: :mad: :mad:

3rd Dec 2001, 15:31

I agree with you having resided for a brief time in the rich pastures of the Thames basin whilst doing my bit for BM. In those days we had to leave our cars in various hotel car parks, with prior permission from the hotels, and just hope that the wheels and engine were still there when we got back.
Yes, living in DE postal code area has it's perks.

It is very easy to get "wound up" waiting for the phone to ring. It will eventually, even when you are not on standby.

Have a look at the Human Rights Act? That might help.

Keep Attacking!!

MP :cool:

Young Paul
3rd Dec 2001, 15:54
Sorry, I wasn't mocking. It is only prior commitments that keeps me where I am - I can't see why anybody would choose to work from LHR. (Except .... well, nowhere else has that buzz!) Even so, if I could get a suitable job at LGW, I would have long gone. I even did 6 months from LTN, whilst living south of London. There wasn't much of an increase in journey time - just miles driven. Certainly a reduction in hassle.

There was an engineer we bumped into once, who had moved to work from LHR to Exeter. He described it as the difference between heaven and hell!