Increased flying in EU for US pilots

[BrowntailWhale]

IPA is meeting with EU reps this week concerning the next two rounds of open skies. IPA wants the new agreements to include increased EU flying for US (UPS) pilots. EU reps said that they were not opposed to the idea but that they would likely get flak from EU pilots.

[underread east]

And we need increased US flying for EU pilots. We don't need to hear the rubbish about cabotage and such. EU = Single economic area, just as the US. If US carriers are allowed to ply their trade around here, EU carriers should be allowed to have FULL reciprocal rights.

[Beaver_Driver]

EU = Single economic area, just as the US. If US carriers are allowed to ply their trade around here, EU carriers should be allowed to have FULL reciprocal rights.http://bestsmileys.com/signs12/5.gif

[Boxshifter]

I totally agree, same rights on both side of the pond.

[dusk2dawn]

You're enjoying life, BrowntailWhite?

[Best foot forward]

Here here just isn't cricket

[5XSoup]

PPruNe is mainly a European pilots web site. That's why I'm visiting. There are more posts from the UK and Germany and West Samoa than on other sites. Whilst AirlinePilotForum is mainly a US based site. Although all are welcome to exchange ideas. I welcome everybodies comments. But like being in somebody elses house. One should show the utmost of respect especially when in others back yard.

This is why I find Brown Tail Whales comments inflamitory at best. It does nothing to harbor International good will. But simply says were gunning for your jobs.

I would suspect that Brown Tail Whale is a very senior pilot on the 747 Classic in Louisville. Maybe the majority of his career is over, and it's been a good, no great ride. I certainly feel that we got the last good job in the industry. But for me too, one day it'll all be over.

Wether or not UPS takes over the routes from Star Air, and MNG, and Blue Cargo or that new one Solinair remains to be seen. It's not in my hands and really won't affect me, like I doubt it'll affect Brown Tail Whale one iota either.

I have no interest in flying a Boeing 767 from Louisville to Philadelphia to Stanstead to Cologne to Madrid, to Cologne to Malmo, to Helsinki, to Malmo, to Cologne, to Barcelona, to Valencia, to Barcelona, to Cologne for a weekend layover, to Dubai, to Bombay, to Dubai, to Cologne, to Newark, to Louisville. I very much doubt anybody with high seniority would either. When we can sit in Louisville.

I've got absolutly nothing against any subcontractor personally. I enjoy talking to pilots from varied backgrounds. We are all just trying to stay employed during these very dificult times. It's not the pilots who make business decissions. It's companies and governments. Remember the U.S Air Force pilot who got in serious trouble for saying that he had a lot more in common with a North Vietnamese Mig-21 pilot, that his own government. That's the way I feel. I have more in common with pilots from other nations than I have towards my government or employer or fellow citizens. Although my allegance has to go to my own seniority list first.

[Beaver_Driver]

Isn't PPRUNE owned by a company in Scottsdale Arizona? The last time I checked Arizona was in the USA.

But like being in somebody elses house. One should show the unmost of respect always, but especially when in others back yard. So your "house" is in someone else's country. Too funny.

[zerozero]

I think what everyone needs to remember first, above all, is that no matter what the heartless and witless bureaucrats decide, the pilots will simply do their job as directed.

It's not personal.

It's not a deliberate sneak attack on other's jobs. We're not foxes (Euro or American) stealing eggs from the nest.

The pilots have virtually no sway in the these matters, so how about if everyone just ditches their regional pride and go write a letter to their appropriate bureaucrat rather than throwing mud on colleagues from across an ocean.

:8

[Ignition Override]

BrowntailWhale:

That is perhaps understandable (from a cargo perspective), but the US appears to have so much more to lose, and it could open up a nasty "Pandora's Box" which could slowly doom the younger pilots over here. One's unleashed, those demons could never be pushed back into the box.
The economic situation is bad enough.

At my age many of us could say "who cares about them?", but along with the younger generation (except for the lower-time FOs), many of whom realize that they will spend careers in RJs (many RJs already Are their B-737, F-100, DC-9, while being paid about 75% less after just a few years...), it might also sell many more future pilots "down the river", who are still in high school.

[underread east]

Indeed we will all just do as we are told. And we cannot, as pointed out have much sway in the decision making process. BUT, I would like to see the reaction from US pilots if EU pilots were allowed to operate without restriction in their economic area (or perhaps I wouldn't....I can picture the picket lines and protest in front of the White House/Senate/wherever right now).
EU pilots are less likely to react in that way, despite the fact that it will inevitably have a similar effect on pilots jobs here as it would if we were allowed to operate in the US.

[742]

"economic area" is not the same as being a sovereign nation. And the EU is not a nation.

It may be someday, and I think the world will be a better place when it happens. But it has not happened yet. And until it does, flying from Italy to France will not be the same as flying from Florida to California.

In the meantime there is no historic basis to pick and chose between the obligations and rights that come from nationhood; it is a package deal.

[countbat]

The brotherhood of pilots. What can be more noble and awesome? It brings tears in my eyes when I see the profound love and respect for our profession.
It reminds me a last incident when I was telling to a fellow pilot about a possible job I was about to get. Later to find out, my good fellow brother in profession used the infos to underbid pay me. Such a good brother. And that is not the only case.

[Beaver_Driver]

So what are the Brotherhood supposed to do about your wish to come to the US and take our flying whilst not allowing us to fly point to point in Germany or point to point in the UK. We already allow you to fly point to point in our "economic area" It's called North America and you can fly from Mexico City to Miami, Toronto to Chicago, or even Vancouver to Atlanta. No different than us flying between two countries in the EU.

[helldriver]

I have been reading all the msg,s and must come to the conclusion that the Americans still dont get the message, nor do I think they ever will.
We in the EU are fed up being told by the US, where and how we may do our job while at the same time invading the EU with N reg. a/c which only FAA pilots are allowed to fly.
If the tide is turning and the Eu is fighting back, I say good on them, it,s time they knew what it feels like.

[WhaleFR8]

Once again and just because you do not understand - THE EU IS NOT A COUNTRY. It is a conglomeration of countries all with their own leaders, rules, regulations, ability to levy tariffs for overflights, and most importantly their own ability to negotiate treaties. You need a serious lesson in geography and civics.

Get rid of the royal family. Get rid of the Pound and start using the Euro only, limit the power of Parliament, ratify the various treaties of the EU and subjugate your borders (and indeed your entire way of life) to the rule of the EU, then you will be the same as the US and can compare flying between countries in the EU with flying between states in the US. Until then you are comparing apples to oranges.

[CargoOne]

WhaleFR8

I don't want to dispute your arguments (many of them can be used against the States as well, if you think about it), but there is one thing very clear in your message: you telling all of this just because you assume that EU will not become a country, at least not in you life.
Tell me honestly, what is the difference for you personally (as FAA pilot) if EU is a joint venture between 27 states or it is a single country? I think there is no difference. The truth is very simple: YOU DON'T WANT EU PILOTS IN THE STATES DOESN'T MATTER WHAT. If EU will become a single country I'm sure you will find some new arguments why EU airplanes should not fly in the States.

[WhaleFR8]

Not true. I could care less as long as there is reciprocity - as long as we can come over with Southwest and fly point to point in individual European countries.

The EU members assume that just because they have formed a marketing conglomeration of countries that all of the sudden they have some special rights to fly point to point in what they see as a very lucrative market. Yet when you mention the fact that the EU is similar to the North American coalition (Mexico, Canada, and the US; who are all sovereign countries) they are not interested. They only want access to the US market. Not the North American market which they can already access.

You want your cake and be able to eat it too. You want to be separate governing bodies with separate histories, cultures, and identities, yet you think you should have the same privileges (or same restrictions on others flying in your airspace) as a real country just because you have formed a loose marketing coalition.

This is NOT what the United States is. We are a sovereign country - all states are governed by one federal government. That government made treaties concerning the freedoms of the air, many many years ago. We have one currency, one system of laws, one system of tariffs and one identity. The individual states cannot restrict cross border trade, levy tariffs, or make treaties with other sovereign nations. There is a huge difference. US airlines and pilots cannot currently fly point to point in Germany or France or the UK. German, or French, or English airlines and pilots are denied the same thing in the US - they cannot fly point to point in the US.

It is simple. The US is a sovereign country. The EU is not (yet). I am sure it will be someday - but how are you going to convince the Brits to give up the royals or the Pound. It's gonna take a while.

[countbat]

We in the EU are fed up being told by the US, where and how we may do our job while at the same time invading the EU with N reg. a/c which only FAA pilots are allowed to fly.

The N registered aircraft invasion of EU should be addressed to the respective's aircraft owners. Why do they prefer to register their aircraft in US and not in their own country beats me? Maybe is easier on them? Maybe better taxes? Maybe because they want to avoid the impossible bureaucratic system existing in many EU countries which BTW as a previous collegue pointed is just a conglomerate of 27 separate countries, each with its different set of laws, language, rules but trying to get a common ground. US is one country and EU is 27 countries in which many shouldn't be even considered yet part of civilized world.
Regarding being fed up by US, it would have been better if you said that after WWII or during Cold War. How short people memories could be? It's so easy to bite and spit the feeding hand when there is no need for it anymore.

[CargoOne]

countbat

EU is 27 countries in which many shouldn't be even considered yet part of civilized world

Tell us a little bit more about it...

What a typical American arrogance and short memory.
But anyway tell us why you still want to fly between those 27 misarable 3rd world countries, why you don't just stick to your perfect world around Louisville?

[countbat]

Tell us a little bit more about it...

Have you lately taken a trip to countries such as Bulgaria, Romania, etc former Easter Europe and be in need of a form, or any services for that matter?
Don't blame us for your lacks.

[countbat]

Just FYI US has a lot of European pilots and nobody give them ****. I believe there are many US pilots in Europe also. People have a duty to find a place where they feel good or where they can get a job. I don't see americans complaining about european pilots flying here but I see a lot of european whining about US pilots overthere. Those american bastards are annoying anybody now. But what am I talking about americans and europeans getting on each other nerves? How friendly is a french or an italian or a british with a worker from Poland, Bulgaria etc? Should I believe there are only kisses and hugs between you guys ? Not if I open any european newspaper?

[CargoOne]

I've been to Romania last week actually, and during last few years I visited all EastEuropean states. Some of the places have their problems, but I've seen much worse places in South Dakota, Nevada and Alaska, so what?

Just FYI US has a lot of European pilots

Are you talking about Europeans holding FAA license and green card (or dual national) flying in the States? That's all right. I don't mind at all Americans coming here, getting JAR lincese, working permit and doing their job. However what is the subject of this topic is American pilots, flying N-registered airplanes, with FAA licenses, paying both personal and corporate taxes in the States, doing an air service in EU.

[Beaver_Driver]

However what is the subject of this topic is American pilots, flying N-registered airplanes, with FAA licenses, paying both personal and corporate taxes in the States, doing an air service in EU.Interesting tho that may be to you, there are not any N-registered airplanes, with FAA licenses, paying both personal and corporate taxes in the States, doing an air service in only one county in Europe.

There are no N registered airplanes flying point to point in France or point to point in the UK. They are possibly revenue flying between different countries of the EU which is legal according to the treaties signed during the Chicago accords and Bermuda I and II. Your nations (at the time}were signatories on those treaties.

And I am sure that those N registered airplanes and their companies are charged an overflight fee and landing fee, not by the EU, but by the individual country that they fly over or land in. True?

[countbat]

I don't want this to become a pissing contest which is which. Every side of the ponds has its goods and bads. The reason I got involved in this thread is because lately I see a lot of anti-americanism. Just because we have some economical issues right now, it doesn't mean everyone can take a dump in our background. Talking about economy I just want to advise all economies are connected. If here goes wrong everyone else will follow sooner or later. If a country will not get affected is because that country has no economy.
From aviation jobs point of view US market is over saturated with pilots. Many companies went belly up and that has created many jobless pilots. I believe( I am not sure) we have over 350000 ATP holders. If you guys in Europe or any other place around the world have a pilot shortage, what's wrong with US pilots working on those places? When we had a shortage in any field, we opened our doors to anybody. Even now, thousands of computer geeks from India are coming, and nobody is yelling bloody murder.
We have our heavy cargo taken over by germans. BAX is kind of the only one controlling that business. DHL was a major player in cargo. Lufthansa aircrafts(and not only) can be seen on all majors US airports. Every american company has a large number of employees with foreign accents. Our TV shows are run by britts. In Miami english is a foreign language. Everyone who steps in this country automatically is considered american and has the same rights like any local. No voting though. If you get kicked out of your country and you ask us for help we will welcome you and if you have any merit we will make you american. Regarding your question about N registered aircraft I told you to ask the european owners. They must have some good reasons to keep the planes N registered. Clear skies brother. Don't worry we are in this sh&*t together.

[Atlanta-Driver]

I could not care less if US pilots come to Europe and fly as long as they have the appropriate work permits for Schengen area countries, UK or other EU states that they operate in. Should they be based in the Schengen area they are also required to obtain a residency permit, be liable for taxes and other wonderful things.

I could not care less what the Americans do as long as they don't take a SINGLE job away from a pilot from any of the EU countries or the European Economical Area, unless they meet the right to work and abode requirements and in that case the whole discussion is meaningless.

Unions and companies alike in Europe need to take strong action against the loss of jobs and work in Europe before it becomes too late. Take the issue up with your MP in UK or your representative in your home country as well as those sitting in Brussels and Starsbourg in EU parliament. I certainly have written to all, my parliament representative the EU parliament members from my country and our ALPA equivalent including the copy of this thread. Complain to your immigration, border guards about foreign crews operating without proper documents and rights (Express One learned the meaning of "Right to work" the hard way) in and out of EU.

It is totally useless to argue the point here, wont do any good. If one wants to save the jobs it's time for some hard line action.

[James T. Kirk]

I have to agree with Atlanta Driver. The only function of this thread is to illustrate the various views out there without necessarily identifying the source of those views.

If we feel strongly about these issues we must raise our concerns with those agencies who can actually do something about them. It will take about as long as writing a post for this thread.

IMHO any agreement between the EU and US aircrew licencing regions must be 100% reciprocal. That also goes for Australian and New Zealand licence holders. I won’t even get into the argument of why this should be so, it’s obviously the only fair solution. In case it is of any interest, I speak as someone who holds both US and UK passports and FAA and JAA ATPLs.

Links:

To find and write to your MP and MEP: Click here (http://www.writetothem.com/?keyword=mep&creativeid=1424683119&gclid=CNv84tuQz5cCFUsa3godPzjXBg)

Directorate-General Energy and Transport (EU) contact page: Click here (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/energy_transport/contact/index_en.htm)

If we do nothing we deserve what we get.

Kirk out.....

[tempesta]

like everything you say dude:ok: