Where have all the jobs gone? [Archive]

FloRider

3rd Dec 2008, 02:42

After arriving in oz over 6 months ago and taking up a job buzzing round the outback on cattle stations i'm finding myself stuck in a rut and looking for a job outside of aviation because i can't find any in!
I've since left the outback and have now taken up watching the sun travel across the sky and the bank balance go down! :ugh: Not to mention calling as many CP's as i can find the numbers for!
When i came over in June there were jobs left right an centre and now... zilch! Help anyone?

440TT, MECIR, CSU/Retractable, Tailwheel...

Perhaps time to take up the dreaded 'Controlled Death Prevention' and get the instructors rating? :{

The Hill

3rd Dec 2008, 03:17

Maybe you should go back to the cattle station. Try and crack the 1000hrs :ok:

E&H

3rd Dec 2008, 03:46

FloRider...welcome to aviation circa 1990s'. The period we have just witnessed in aviation i.e. jobs abound for everyone is the first time I have seen it like that in my 24 year career. I suspect it will be the last...who really knows?

What I do know is that if we are heading back to the period like the early 90s' then only those that are dedicated to making a career out of aviation will still be around for the next "boom." Aviation comes at a price and I'm not just talking about the monetary cost of licences, endorsements etc.

Personally I have taken time out from the industry these last 2 years and have found life outside of aviation extremely rewarding...earning up to 4 times as much as I ever did as a regional airline pilot...and having some really good bosses. I think the best thing has been the appreciation that they show for my efforts. Not only has the financial side of it been rewarding I have also managed to have six months off in those two years (and still earn 4 times as much???) However this "moment" of skills shortage is now over and it's back to the millstone for me.

As for jobs they are being removed from the landscape at a great rate of knots. Especially in the mining industry, contracts are being suspended...engineers are being laid off, whole divisions are shutting up shop. The last mine I was at laid off 80 workers in one go. Not sure why this isn't making the news headlines yet??

If there is any good news in this it's that if you are worth employing and can make yourself valuable to the company then you will still get work...it's just that the days of walking in off the street and getting a start straight away are over...til the next time.

PS if I could offer any advice it would be to leave the phone calls for every one else and get on the road...back out west and up north.

bushy

3rd Dec 2008, 04:26

i think Alice Springs needs a senior instructor.

Sqwark2000

3rd Dec 2008, 04:48

Don't leave a job unless you've got another to go too........ Job Searcher 101.

S2K

FloRider

3rd Dec 2008, 04:50

'Ralph', it's uninformed cynical comments like yours that piss soo many people off on this forum. I don't feel the need to justify to you why i left the station job and speculation is usually only destructive. Oh and your comments about 'back in the day' and taking a stab at my generation is pure generalisation. Why do you think i went into the outback to start with?:ugh:
The point of the post was to discuss the current job climate and to see if anyone knew of an opportunity out there that i might be able to follow up on. Save your whinging for somone elses thread.
E & H - Thanks for your comments, if i could hit the road i would (no vehicle). It just seems such a waste of money to be looking at other industries so early on in the peice.

load it, launch it

3rd Dec 2008, 04:58

Don,t know much but just making phone calls never worked for me. It always seemed that if you turn up at an office of a company that you may wish to work for (or even make an appointment) wearing some neat clothes and with a positive attitude then the jobs are easier to find.
Just my 2 cents

Ricky Bobby

3rd Dec 2008, 05:08

Don't worry, the pilot shortage to come in 3 years or so will be enormous. Hopefully it will last more than 3 months!.

Checkerboard

3rd Dec 2008, 05:18

Florider, your backlash at Ralph just proves his point even further. Your response makes you sound just like one of the generation y that he was explaining that you say not to generalise about. I think he has proved his point. I think Ralphs comment were valid and polite, and provided some worthy advice and not in any way deserving of your response.

I will be less polite- take your 400hrs and go back to the bush in your "rut"(geez you must have done at least 200hrs out there), come back when you have some decent hours and lost the attitude.........................and then you may find your next job
or
go back to where you came from

The_Pharoah

3rd Dec 2008, 05:27

just out of interest, I check the AFAP aviation pages every day just to see what sort of job demands there are. Here's one that was posted today:

Renaissance Air
Expressions of interest are requested from motivated, professional, twin-engine pilots seeking entry-level part-time/full time employment. The positions are based in Adelaide, South Australia with an expanding, dynamic charter organisation.
Respondents should meet the following criteria:
Essential
* Minimum 500 hours total time
* Current MECIR
* Current DG
* Current Class 1 medical
* CPL(A)
Desirable
* Night experience
* 50 hours under the IFR
All EOIs/queries will be treated confidentially. Telephone enquiries will not be taken. Please forward your CV with covering letter to [email protected] ([email protected])

try that? I had a look at their website - they operate out of Parafield, SA and have a range of a/c. If you don't know it, the AFAP website is http://www.afap.org.au.

Good luck mate. I wish I was in your position :ok:

E&H

3rd Dec 2008, 05:48

No Problem FloRider...seems a waste to have all this knowledge about the industry and not make some use of it.. The overriding theme in the coming months/years will be to not give up and to have a plan...and a car. Make use of the xmas period to get a job (while your working your not spending) and put some money together with the view to being ready to hit the road Feb/March next year.

I got my first job that way...with a massive 200 hours and a C210 endorsement. My first ever charter was from Alice to Weipa in a C210 to carry a spare part for a trawler. I flew along the coast of cape yorke and marvelled at all the lights of the trawlers (they had just started a new idea where they would open the Gulf up for seasonal periods and they were all there waiting for the start)

I had to wash planes, work maintenance and bus passengers around for 5 months...anybody that was around in those days will tell of similar stories...we got good at pulling beer, waitering...or in my case anything in civil constuction, waiting for that call to come in for some piecemeal work or the odd charter.

Do not sit around that is what a lot of my mates did..some made it but a lot didn't...also regards Ralph the Bong comments unfortunately what he says appears to have some truth in it. In as much as I work for three companies and they are all telling me the same thing... they are over it with employing younger people. There comments are that they just do not put the work in. Not trying to start a Gen Y bash here...when I was about 35 the big thing was that if you were over 45 you were considered too old. Maybe for once I am in the right age group??? (47)

To add a bit more about the financial side of things I sold down and bought as cheap as possible...e.g. I bought an old HQ station wagon so that if I had to I could sleep in it (never did)...also parts were cheap and even my wife learnt how to get out when the lights were green and politely give the prick behind who was tooting his horn, the bird, while diving under the bonnet and unjamming the gear selectors before driving off just as the lights turned red again.

Anyways just don't stop trying and take on board all comments here...a lot of experience from people who have had to do it the hard way...and they survived.

Wizofoz

3rd Dec 2008, 07:17

Perhaps time to take up the dreaded 'Controlled Death Prevention' and get the instructors rating?

If that is your attitude, DO NOT go into instructing. People pay large sums to be instructed by professionals. They do not deserve to be sat next to people who think like you.

The point of the post was to discuss the current job climate and to see if anyone knew of an opportunity out there that i might be able to follow up on

The current job situation is that with 400hrs you were lucky to have a job and were a fool to leave it.

Why do you think i went into the outback to start with?

A lot of us went bush, and stayed for as long as it took. If you want admiration for your whole couple of months on a station, or sympathy because the world hasn't beat a path to your door, find another forum.

Oh, and that key marked "SHIFT" turns am "i" into an "I". If you ever get around (between watching sunrises) to actually WRITING any applications, I'd learn to use it!

Does it occur to you that CPs and people in recruiting positions read this forum? Do you think the attitude and sloppy English you show here would pre-dispose any of them to hire you when plenty of more qualified, better motivated candidates are available??

panzerd18

3rd Dec 2008, 07:18

It seems like a big risk these days to even consider contemplating spending the $$$ and doing a CPL. Can anyone advise a newbie like myself, if you do land a job in the outback on a cattle station, can you survive on the pay, considering you will need to buy necessities such as food, cloths and accommodation? Or do most have to work two jobs in order to survive?

Howard Hughes

3rd Dec 2008, 07:27

If you work for a cattle station they usually supply food and accomodation, which leaves you not much to spend your cash on, except grog of course...;)

skurgler

3rd Dec 2008, 07:47

Ralph,

With due respect you have no fecking idea.

Whingeing about a Command after 18 months, try asking about Commands or Jet upgrades less than 18 DAYS into F/O line training.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:mad:

Stationair8

3rd Dec 2008, 07:59

Two types of pilots, the employed and the unemployed.

The Green Goblin

3rd Dec 2008, 11:00

Boys its the same as this every year :D

It goes quite as the wet hits up north and all the nomads retreat south, the government charter stops while the public servants take leave and in general it all halts a little. Many pilots head south for Christmas knocking off MECIRS/ATPL's etc and when the roads get wet the charter kicks off again along with the hiring.

Come Jan/March it will be on the boil again and the movement will start all over :p

pill

3rd Dec 2008, 11:27

2 things, Sir Joe will always be the only "Florider". And I can't believe it hasn't been said yet, " Phuck off back to New Zealand", kiwi's that come to oz thinking the joint owes them a living give me the ****ts.

The Green Goblin

3rd Dec 2008, 19:24

" Phuck off back to New Zealand", kiwi's that come to oz thinking the joint owes them a living give me the ****ts.

Come on now, NZ is really just the 9th state of Australia, they are just heading for the mainland :ok:

SystemsAreGo

3rd Dec 2008, 21:57

Flo,

It seems like 500TT, 700TT and 1000TT are good numbers. Why would you not stick around to increase your chances of finding that next job? Keep in mind that your next potential employer will look at how long you lasted in the dust.

Think like this.. if you were a CP would you take yourself on?

Good luck :ok:

Track Direct

3rd Dec 2008, 22:48

Ralph I understand where you're coming from re Gen Y.
They think the world owes them a job these days.:yuk:
Young Flo has got a bit of attitude as well, no doubt he could'nt hack the cattle station gig....aahh well there's always stacking shelves at woollies.:E

morno

3rd Dec 2008, 23:30

Ralph,
Dem's is wise words, I completely agree and I am Gen Y.

However.....

There are those of us in Gen Y who are whinging, whining little rats like Florider, who believe the whole words owes them everything now, even if they haven't done the work to earn it. I want want want....

And then there are those of us in Gen Y who marvel at the words of those before us, and much wiser, who worked for their careers, had fun and have earnt what they now have. We then go out and try and do the same, get some life experience, and do the hard yards. After all, you only live once, why not try and make it a unique experience. Rather than doing the same thing everyone else does.

I like to think I fit into the latter of the two. I went north, did some 18 months in the Territory flying around in singles, loving the work, and then a further 12+ months in QLD flying twins. Even that time was relatively short compared to what our elders have done. I thought I was extremely lucky to be flying a twin with just under 1,200hrs, and even more lucky to be flying a turbine with just over 2,000hrs!

Florider, suggest you either go back to NZ, or take on the great advice from people like Ralph. They're not in the positions they are in now, because they've simply winged it the whole way and not had any advice themselves.

And I am with the times. However, I don't demand, I don't want want want right now, and I'm willing to earn the respect of those above me in the industry. That will get me further than just the hours in the book.

Rant over

morno

FloRider

3rd Dec 2008, 23:58

First of all, thanks to those of you who have had constructive things to say. I will most definately take it on board.
Second of all, I left the bush because I had to attend to a deteriorating family situation back home. It wasn't my intent to leave so soon. I am in no way whinging about anything but people who make false assumptions about who I am (rather rudely I might add).
The general response from companies has been to try again feb/march time whe they hire! thanks again.

Sue Ridgepipe

4th Dec 2008, 00:21

The general response from companies has been to try again feb/march time whe they hire!
Which means if you want to get a head start on everyone else, start looking again in January. If it was me, I would target a specific area (Darwin, Kimberleys etc...) and get there in Jan and get to know the right people before the masses arrive in Feb/March.

It might mean you'll have to stack the shelves at Woolies or work in a bar for a while, but you'll be there and ready to go when they need someone.

tinpis

5th Dec 2008, 00:01

Is this going to upset the apple cart? :uhoh:

Dark time: NT miner sacks 200 - Northern Territory News (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/12/05/20295_ntnews.html)

tinpis

5th Dec 2008, 00:08

And remember not to use a red pen for written comments on a check
Ashley may need counselling.
:*

The Green Goblin

5th Dec 2008, 03:00

And remember not to use a red pen for written comments on a check
Ashley may need counselling.

bahahahaha

When i saw that on the idiot box last night i cacked myself silly!

The youth of today have become as soft as Nannas scones :D

The Hill

5th Dec 2008, 03:22

Valid points Ralph,
I did like the Gen Y comment (as in, why haven’t I got my command yet) classic!
but let’s not generalise too much hey, were not all like that Corey tosser!

Brian Abraham

5th Dec 2008, 04:10

Maybe the challenge for Baby Boomers is to find ways of dealing with a generation that seems to expect everything on a plate and has no patience.A smack behind the ear with a bit of 4 X 2? :E Throwing tantrums has been the means by which they have got where they are. And us baby boomers had a hand in that. Loved your "crotchety old c$%^& " Ralph. Was regarded as one, but hope they learned some think. ;)

pylet

5th Dec 2008, 04:59

Would like to take a moment to thank the always present Pprune grumpy old farts who posted the last few posts. You added nothing! Feel good to get that off your chests though?

Flo, 20yrs old with 400 hours! Sounds like a good situation to be in! My suggestion, like many others, would be fly up to Broome/Kunnas in Jan, see the operators, base yourself there. Would be surprised if you didn't have a flying gig within months. Plenty of good backpacker accom or similarly placed pilots wanting to rent together. Also many a pub, coles etc to earn cash while waiting. A car would help, but can get a car/scooter up there.

Feel free to PM me for more details of operators up there if youre interested. And do your best to ignore the grumpy old pilot attitide. They'll be gone soon enough.

nomorecatering

5th Dec 2008, 12:37

Florider,

Some hard advice. Clam up and get on with flying. 440hrs is almost zero experiance in the big world.

It also amazes me some of the attitudes that gen Y have, particulaly junior grade3's. Arguing the point and rying to boss grade1's around. In my day it was yes sir, no sir. First job after flight school in a big city and on salary, that sort of stuff wasnt around when I finished my CPL. The young sprogs just dont know about hard times.

TWOTBAGS

5th Dec 2008, 13:19

"crotchety old c$%^& " are the exact people I have learnt the most from and now I am probably one too.

I had one of these old timers that had his "golden rules"

No questions before 8am
Limit of 4 questions per hour
No questions between 12 & 2 pm
No questions after 8pm

Live by the rules and life was sweet, his attitude was watch and learn, which we did and gradually the need for questions faded.

He was one of the best guys to learn from and now when I pushing a burner around in the soup with a mel laundry list I can see him grinning at me and shades of Gann "lighting the matches in front of your face on approach".

"crotchety old c$%^& " indeed but his input has helped me get to where I am today and made me a better person & pilot.

Toughen the F#$% up Gen Y, you appear to have very little appreciation of those that tired to make life better for you as a whole.

Respect and learn and the doors will open for you in ways that you may never have thought possible because its these "crotchety old c$%^& " that for the time being do actually control your career destiny no matter how much you may disagree.

The toes you piss on today may belong to the arse you have to kiss tomorrow.

The Hill

5th Dec 2008, 18:30

yep, no generalisation going on here at all..........

j3pipercub

5th Dec 2008, 20:10

You know all youse guys are sooooo right. Us Gen Y's have NEVER had it hard, none of us have ever been paid a pittence or been treated like cr@p.

My first job my boss hired me straight out of flying school to fly his C208 and asked if I thought I could handle a King Air command with just 500 hours!! I told him that I'm a Gen Y and if he wanted to keep me he'd have to do better than that.

So really sucks to be you guys cos I've had an awesome career, never had to wash planes or fly those ****ty piston twins!! I've also told my new boss unless I get the GV command within 3 months I'll go elsewhere.

Do you older guys really think that ALL guys/girls my age and younger are complete f*ckwits? Come on, please I beg of you, have some common sense, or don't and continue to carry on with your stereotypical bullsh1t.

j3

j3pipercub

5th Dec 2008, 23:53

Ralph,

With respect I don't think I missed the point, Florider was the subject with 440hrs and I agree with everyone else on the forum that 440 hours is just out of school.

I was not referring to the star metro pilots that get pissed off cos they don't get thier jet command. Anyhow, wouldn't these guys be a bit older than Gen Y? I'm 25, the upper limit of Gen Y and I've only just started flying twin turboprops and I consider myself extraordinarily lucky. Are you seriously saying that there are 25 year olds in airlines that are upset they haven't got thier commands?? If that is indeed the case, I'm amazed and shocked.

However, and I have said this before, anger at individuals shouldn't descend into broad brush insulting of everyone in an age bracket. It is insulting and childish, especially as I and other guys and girls have done everything in my power to distance myself from that mentality and worked hard without whingeing to get where we are

I may have over-exageratted but it was to demonstrate a point. Twotbags and nomorecatering generalised like crazy EG.

Toughen the F#$% up Gen Y, you appear to have very little appreciation of those that tired to make life better for you as a whole.

It also amazes me some of the attitudes that gen Y have, particulaly junior grade3's.

How do you respond to those two gems?

j3

Chocks Away

6th Dec 2008, 00:09

Interesting thread and some sage words throughout.

J3CUB :"Us Gen Y's have NEVER had it hard..." (I'll overlook the sarcasm) That's right "...CUB" - you haven't but you will. I don't need to give you a heads-up additional to the previous.

Worth noting that your demanding attitude with you boss (if true and not just big-noting), goes well beyond his business fence! You've just shat in your own nest pal. Naive for you to think he doesn't speak to major players in the Industry elsewhere... where you may wish to go.

You miss the point also: ..."those ****ty piston twins" are the very aircraft you would have learnt mistakes on, scared yourself on and have you first incident with. As it stands now, you are more dangerous on bigger/faster airframes, assuming you haven't had you first big "lesson".

Something to ponder, further to Ralphs' words above, is the fact that a major percentage of "top-gun" F/O's going for their Command upgrades are failing, in many Airlines...!

(Arh Standby I see you response...looks like we've mis-understood your words... and Yes - 25 year olds in airlines that are upset they haven't got thier commands?? The 4 x 2 is needed for a big reality check, I can assure you:hmm:)

empacher48

6th Dec 2008, 00:28

I love reading the stories about the guys sitting in the pointy ends of jets at my age! (28).. I wonder what else they are going to aspire to before they retire at 65! I think that 37 years of watching a jet fly itself somewhere might get mighty boring!

I don't get the rush to get there, because I'm finding the journey to my jet command is great fun, and learning heaps along the way - its not all about flying either, but all the other skills that need to be developed along the way that help with the command.

I'll leave all those people who rushed through their careers to retire at 45 because the job wasn't all that they seemed, or got bored and moved on. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying flying around the area I work, and flying the various types I can fly too.

bushy

6th Dec 2008, 01:21

I can tell you about a bloke who applied for a chief pilot's job for a small piston charter outfit. Late in the process it was discovered that his resume was false (just a small error) and the company had to shell out for an endorsement for him. He said he had an endorsement he did not have. He lasted about three months and tantrums were not uncommon. He offered to hand in the keys once too often.
His next step was to go overseas and spend about $150,000 on further training A couple of years later he was still unhappy.

j3pipercub

6th Dec 2008, 02:35

Chocks,

Thanks for seeing the extreme sarcasm in my post. I was merely trying to make an example. I have family in GA who have been there for over 30 years. I have experienced, if not fully understood what GA has been like most of my life.

I respect that there is a downturn here and I am fully aware that someone 15years ago with my hours would be lucky to be polishing a 310. With that in mind I realise what an absolute gift the current climate has been up until a month or two ago. As a result I worked my ar5e off and got into a nice secure job, and I intend to stay here for quite some time, I won't be demanding an upgrade or getting pissed cos the airlines aren't hiring, I'll be enjoying the journey and the flying, just like I always have.

j3

patienceboy

6th Dec 2008, 06:22

Gen Y are born into a world where property prices are 7 x the household income (and appreciating at 20% pa) and unskilled workers are in demand at 100k per year. The world is moving fast and they don’t know any different. This might be about to change, but maybe they are driven by the feeling of necessity? Not so long ago you could actually buy a decent house on a (piston) GA wage.

TWOTBAGS

6th Dec 2008, 08:15

J3.... how can we not generalise when if we say Harry, Tom & Bill at XYZ Aviation all failed to be upgraded and are now back on the line.....

Tiddles and Tail Wheel would have a pink fit of naming names and more than likely I would be sin binned...... not likely sunshine.

Well, surprisingly enough this is exactly what happened this week at my mob, 3 guys of various nationalities and capabilities all got told that sorry mate you dont cut the mustard and back to the right seat for you.

There is one thing in common among all three - generation.

empacher48 makes a very good point and I faced the same thing. At 28 I found myself the Chief Pilot of a RPT operator with multi turbines, by 29 I realised that if I did not actively look for another position I would be in the job until I karked it, like the "Crusty old C*^@$" that are still there.

I went back o/s and have gone onto much bigger and better things, while I have mates at QF, DJ & J* they dont regret their moves but most of them are bored senseless and realise that they have golden handcuffs.

Plenty of these fellas did the hard yards, and some did it tougher than others, but when we get together and sink a couple, or chat more often than than not the APPARENT attitude of the younger crew members appears to be holding back their career progression.

These particular crew members are also the ones that have "generally" gained a licence straight out of school, generally done a quick stint in the bush or around the circuit at Bankstown and found themselves in the right seat of a regional for a year or so and next they passed selection to a big boy.

This is not wishy washy hearsay this is fact.

These guys and gals will be the ones that when they do get their command they will do it for 10 years and realise that the grass in not greener, and left seat for a 320 is as good as it gets without dropping to the bottom of someone elses seniority list...... then they retire from the industry at 45 finally realising that it may not have been really what they wanted.

If you are lucky enough like me to be some one who has turned their passion into their job then every day that you are doing what you want and not getting a train to an office, looking at the 4 walls of a cubicle waiting for 4:59:59........... then you are the luckiest guy alive.

Cloud Cutter

7th Dec 2008, 00:42

I guess I fit in the Gen Y category, and while I don't like to generalise, I must say I am disappointed at times by the attitudes of some of some younger people in Aviation - I suppose for the same reason I loathe sms abbreviations so much. But that's the way of the world, and airlines are realising they need to adapt and cater for generational differences.

Pill, you must be joking about Kiwi pilots stealing Aussie jobs. Plenty of your boys over here, we're happy to have them, and I've enjoyed flying with many of them.

By the way, I think the original post has been taken out of context (apart from Florider's misguided comment about instructing). I wish her well with her endevours, as I remember how much of an uphill battle it can seem like at her stage of the game.

j3pipercub

7th Dec 2008, 04:15

TWOTBAGS

I do not have any doubt in my mind that there are numerous de-identified examples that you and your mates could provide me with, that wasn't my point. My point being that we're not all like that and your assumptions that we are is a little off putting. If you simply think that most young pilots you've encountered are like that therefore all must be, then you have a rather slanted view of reality. I am sure this is not the case though...

j3

TWOTBAGS

7th Dec 2008, 09:34

J3 we appear to be on the same page of the same book, but your is in English and mine is in American……. In other words very close but different.

A mate of mine saw this thread and rang me up says, yeah bags I agree, but I have to tell you this….

We commented upon the “fantastic fo phenomena” and recanted something he witnessed a few weeks back quite by chance that a few of the fantastics were talking about their own performance and basically had their own coming to Jesus.

However later when among other crew, they reverted to all piss and vinegar mode with a liberal scattering of non smelling sh!t.

The conversation left me with mixed feelings that it was good to know that some of these fellas have the sense to know that age and experience is no match for BS and bravado and that they may have areas where they can improve. However it saddened me that there was so much of a face issue that these individuals are so keen for what they see as the prize that it clouds their thought process.

Thankfully I am just a line schwein so I have no hand in culling the herd, but is it a Gen Y thing, that humility and biding ones time are such a distasteful tonic.

Are some that egotistical….. if so it is scary. Most of them have their Breitling etc, while half of us have Citizens or Casio’s. Maybe there is something to the “Big Clock = Small Cock” that the hosties giggle about!

Not meaning to pull punches just hopefully giving and insight to how many of the younger generation are viewed by their coworkers.

nohumbug

7th Dec 2008, 09:56

pill..you just made my day:D:D

nomorecatering

7th Dec 2008, 10:11

If you think the gen Y's are bad, we aint seen nothing yet. Just round the corner are the Gen Z's. A type exemplified by the infamous party boy Cory Worthington. And it seems the girls are worse, asky anyone who works in a capital city shopping centre.

j3pipercub

7th Dec 2008, 11:04

If it's anthing like most of my flying mates, then I'm pretty sure we're on the same page there and in the same language.

There were these kind of aviators about in previous generations too(I have met several:yuk:), however I think that the ratio has increased rather dramatically in Y.

The reason I get frustrated when the generalisations start flying is on a number of occassions, flying with older crew I have simply been classified as a 'young pr1ck what the f*ck would he know, they never listen and they think they know everything'.

So the next time a young guy or girl steps into the flight deck, leave the stereotyping until they ask you how long to command during their F/O line training. Then fire away as they deserve it! You may find some of us are quasi-human :}

And I can't mention on this forum the things I would like to do to that oxygen thief Corey and those of his ilk, but it involves pliers, teeth, and fingernails:}

Love the watch reference. Can't say I am a member of the Brietling club, the pulsar club, thats another matter!

j3

neville_nobody

7th Dec 2008, 11:28

I agree with everyone else on the forum that 440 hours is just out of school.

Can I just suggest that we don't go back to the GA I saw in the 90's and 2000's with the attitude like the one above of you've only got 400 hours that's nothing.... I flew a single for 2500 hours before flying a baron etc etc...

GA and flying in general should not be treated like it's a moonshot. It ain't that difficult overall and we should not be so focused on hours but on ability. I'm Gen X did the usual GA story and agree that Gen Y need a kick in the pants from time to time HOWEVER operators have had to start paying people properly, progression is throughout the industry and the whole hours dick measuring thing has gone out the window, if you're competent you're in. So lets take on some of the good things that have changed in Australia instead of trying to make GA the industry what it was 20 years ago where everyone just got screwed over.

Just to keep things in perspective in Europe with 440 hours this guy would be a FO on a jet so lets not start the whole thing of that isn't enough hours to wash my car BS.....please

j3pipercub

7th Dec 2008, 11:56

Neville.

That comment was never suggesting that I would like things to go back to the way they were. What I was doing was agreeing with the sentiment from previous posters that 440hours is not enough hours to be looking for a second job. It was later revealed that Florider had to leave the job due to personal family reasons.

Should we be going back to they way it was (ie 2500 hours in a single before a twin) I sincerely hope not, however, in addition I would not like the situation to accelerate to the point where it is common place to do 200 hours in one job before moving on, or to be put on a high performance piston twin straight out of flying school, I think that would (and has recently) create unneccessary risk.

j3

JIM1984

7th Dec 2008, 12:20

See this is what really pisses me off the bitter and twisted geeza's out there, who still believe that because they had it "tough" that therefore everyone else should follow suite with there ten milion hrs and three moon landings. Who gives a rats really you make your own luck in this game everyone knows that. The fact is aviation has changed over the past few years with the introduction of low cost carriers etc people can now fly for next to nothing and therefore the 5-10 year apprenticeship is just not needed any longer as demand for pilots went exponential. However I do agree with having sufficient stick time, bush time whatever you want to call it as it sets good foundations for maturity, life experience & future flying but as for stereotyping the Gen Ys before they have even step foot into the cockpit is just pathetic in my opinion, give them a chance as some may just turn out to be normal people without that chip on their shoulder. So to all the bitter geeza's out there either take it on the chin or retire early. Simple, just my two cents worth:ok:

bushy

7th Dec 2008, 13:03

the wizard of auz

7th Dec 2008, 14:04

I'm with Bushy. :ok:

neville_nobody

7th Dec 2008, 22:55

GA used to be a reasonable way to make a living and the pay was about the same as a teacher got. Endorsements were paid for by the company.
Then came a flood of wannabies who worked for nothing, paid for icus and endorsements and very soon stuffed everything up.
How can we respect them??

Narr the tide has turned on that one bushy. I know of guys in GA getting $50 000+ due to there being no applicants. I have also seen jobs advertised in the paper that in my day you were in a queue a mile long for. This is my point, we have moved on from what you're talking about now. Unfortunately many of the GA operators have gone broke or just closed the doors so I don't think there will be much of a GA industry left. Hopefully it doesn't return to the days you're talking about.

hotnhigh

7th Dec 2008, 23:34

Ralph:
(BTW:I'm amazed that some FOs from work have not even seen 'Flying High'..or heard of it)

Shirley you can't be serious?

neville_nobody

7th Dec 2008, 23:54

I am serious and stop calling me Shirley:}:ok:

bushy

8th Dec 2008, 04:40

Neville
Do you really think $50,000 is alot of money for flying an aeroplane in the outback? (I paid $70,000 over two years ago. Three of my ex pilots are now earning much more than that in GA and they want to stay in GA)
Do you really think it is a serious shortage of pilots if operators actually advertise job vacancies just like they do in all other jobs? i think it is normal business, and the way it should be.
I never sat down and sent out unsolicited resumes. People offered me jobs. I never worked free or cheap Sure it wasn't easy. What is?
Sure the bludging airlines recruited some of the pilots from GA instead of trainig their own and now, for a short time things are getting a bit more sensible. That is slowing down now. It may pick up again after a year or two.
There are very good safety (for GA) and IR reasons why airlines should train their own pilots, and the multi crew licence may help with this. GA needs a stable and well paid workforce to be safe and reliable. Under the present system that will never happen.

.

Maverickmax

8th Dec 2008, 06:27

Chin up girl............hang in there, just keep a smile on ur dial and things will come to you.

The Green Goblin

8th Dec 2008, 06:50

Until GA purchase some newer equipment and charge it's clients what doing business truly costs, then the lowest bidder will always win.

How many GA operators have a 5 year paint/interior plan and factor that into their quotations, or how many just flog them and pay the bare minimum to keep them going under schedule 5?

justdunno

8th Dec 2008, 23:53

Florider.... Out of curiosity, what type of work are you chasing?

IE: - Geographically
- Aircraft type
- Charter or Airline

Just curious

Jet_A_Knight

9th Dec 2008, 00:31

I'm confused.:uhoh:

I'm not Gen X.

I'm not Gen Y.

Definitely not a baby boomer.

Born in the late 60's.

What does that make us??:ugh:

FRQ Charlie Bravo

9th Dec 2008, 01:34

What a schmozzle this thread has turned into.

Jet_A_Knight according to this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generations) you are a Gen Xer and post 1980 young'uns are Gen Y.

FRQ CB (a proud Gen WTF):ok:

neville_nobody

9th Dec 2008, 02:58

Bushy you missed the + after the $50 000. That alone is a ballpark figure and doesn't consider the other things thrown in like remote area tax benefits, housing etc etc. Guys I knew were on numbers upward of what you are offering. Another operator you could make nearly $100K with allowances and the like thrown in.

Do you really think it is a serious shortage of pilots if operators actually advertise job vacancies just like they do in all other jobs?

Yeah I do actually. From my experience operators in aviation for what ever reason are not proactive they are reactive, hence they run out of pilots and as a last resort they advertise.

The real issue for jobs in GA is having an aircraft they are able to fly as it stands at the moment many of the GA operators are shutting up shop which is bad news for everyone.

Jet_A_Knight

9th Dec 2008, 04:45

Thanks Charlie - now I know my place in the world.:ok:

bushy

9th Dec 2008, 05:21

Oh the poor buggers. flogging around in 30 year old ****boxes, doing it tough, and doing the hard yards. Why are they there if it is so bad? They must be heroes, sacrificing their lives for the common good. Or are they just sissies from the city? Maybe they should stay in the city if going north is so desparately hard. There are others who can handle outback flying and have done so for many years.

ZK-NSN

9th Dec 2008, 06:40

This forum has got it all. Kiwi bashing, and "in my day speeches" its a great one.
Bushy: Im sure they are going to put up a statue for you any day now.

Back in the day GA pilots got paid as much as school teachers....? Yeah and you could go to the pictures to see the latest talkie pictures for 1/2 a bob and still have enough left-over for a gallon of gas and the latest Glen Miller record.

And then theres the old "you guys f#@ked it up by taking jobs for free...etc" Well I (note the use of the shift key) have to say it was probably one of the fellows from your generation who came up with the idea to shaft us!
I have seen articals in magazine from the early 90's (when I was 10) about no or low pay jobs. Why the hell are us younger guys getting the stick for it?

Its one of the basic rules of economics, Supply & Demand.

Oh and Airplane 1 was way better than Airplane 2. looks like I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.

the wizard of auz

9th Dec 2008, 07:17

Thats the problem with you younger generation. your all glue sniffing college people with bad decision making skills. :E:E

The Green Goblin

9th Dec 2008, 07:35

And then theres the old "you guys f#@ked it up by taking jobs for free...etc" Well I (note the use of the shift key) have to say it was probably one of the fellows from your generation who came up with the idea to shaft us!
I have seen articals in magazine from the early 90's (when I was 10) about no or low pay jobs. Why the hell are us younger guys getting the stick for it?

Ironic isn't it :ok:

Then in the same breathe they sit back, sipping top shelf, telling you that you must go bush and do the hard yards, wash, sweep, answer phones etc etc then blast you for working for free and destroying the industry :D

One can never win, just try not to piss too many people off!

the wizard of auz

9th Dec 2008, 07:41

I can't remember when I drank from the top shelf last...... not on pilot wages anyway........ because all them young blokes that don't wanna go bush stuffed the industry and I have to work for bugger all........... or something like that. :}:ok::E

tinpis

20th Dec 2008, 22:36

Can anyone translate this into Latin?
I think it woud be the perfect motto for the Aussie aviation industry

"Same ****, different day"

pylet

20th Dec 2008, 23:40

wizard of aus
I can't remember when I drank from the top shelf last...... not on pilot wages anyway........ because all them young blokes that don't wanna go bush stuffed the industry and I have to work for bugger all........... or something like that.
Thats the problem with you younger generation. your all glue sniffing college people with bad decision making skills.

What keeps you from leaving? Simple question really......

I am the younger generation, i did go to college, i did go bush, i got the qualifications i needed on award conditions, i now have the gig i set out to get, and the top shelf tastes good. Bad decision making skills?! Must have been something in the glue......

STOP WHINGING!

bushy

21st Dec 2008, 00:08

Seems like it's the young ones who complain about flying the "****boxes" and "doing the hard yards" who are doing the whingeing.

pylet

21st Dec 2008, 00:49

Bushy!

****box is defined as:

something that is low quality or nonworking
An automobile that is in poor condition
Any vehicle,(even a brand new one) that you are forced to use for commuting while something much more entertaining sits in the garage waiting for the weekend.Pretty much somes up most GA aircraft wouldn't you say? I'm sure you, as most pilots, recall the many times you taxi past a shiney Kingair 350 or G5 in your piston single/twin that has suffered so many gear up landings that one more will send it to the graveyard cos there's no more room for strengthening rivets, while the EGT gauge indicates almost red but it's ok cos it "always does", when you look down to see the annunciator for the cabin door flashing on and off but the boss said "that always happens, just make sure you shut it good!", meanwhile the ADF is dancing around the gauge again (at least you know the electrics are on!), and you dream of the day the autopilot actually worked but still manages to keep pride of place in the avionics stack cos the punters don't like looking at a big ****-off hole in the middle of the panel!

Go ahead and tell the term "****box" doesn't spring to mind!

The first few GA jobs are hard work, bloody hard work. Maybe youre just more tough than most, or maybe youve been doing it too long that the bloody hard work is simply routine and you know any different.

The young guys/girls, will keep coming out bush to fly the ****boxes and do the hard work, under the conditions the older guys never defended. They'll get what they need, leave for the better flying gig and recall the good experiences they had in the ****boxes during a hard day's work.

FourBalls

21st Dec 2008, 01:10

The first few GA jobs are hard work, bloody hard work.

I got out of my last job (construction) and into flying because I was sick of "working". If you think flying is hard work, I hope you never lose your medical and are forced into something else. Apart from the heat in summer in your unairconditioned bug smasher and the living in ****holes on **** pay, the job isn't really that hard. Getting paid to have fun mostly. If you don't find it fun, find something that is.

Just my two cents (retreating to bunker now)

Stormynights

21st Dec 2008, 03:08

Couldnt agree more with Fourballs !!!

mattyj

21st Dec 2008, 03:20

yeah I am in the middle of 3 months on compo with leg in cast:{

Don't know what I was complaining about
Happy Christmas

Dark Knight

21st Dec 2008, 23:22

Those were the good ole days. Pilots all knew who Jimmy Doolittle was. Pilots chased women, drank coffee, whiskey, smoked cigars and didn’t say my ticket is on the line.

They carried their own suitcases and brain bags like the real men that they were. Pilots didn't bend over into the crash position multiple times each day in front of the passengers at security so that so Gov't agent could probe for tweezers or fingernail clippers or too much toothpaste.

Pilots did not go through the terminal impersonating a caddy pulling a bunch of golf clubs, computers, guitars, and feed bags full of tofu and granola on a sissy-trailer with no hat and granny glasses hanging on a pink string around their pencil neck while talking to their personal trainer on the cell phone!!!

Being an Airline Captain was as good as being the King in a Mel Brooks movie. All the Stewardesses (aka. Flight Attendants) were young, attractive, single one's that were proud to be combatants in the sexual revolution. They didn't have to turn sideways, grease up and suck it in to get through the cockpit door. They would blush and say thank you when told that they looked good, instead of filing a sexual harassment claim. Junior Stewardesses shared a room and talked about men.... with no thoughts of substitution.

Passengers wore nice clothes and were polite, they could speak AND understand English. They didn't speak gibberish or listen to loud rap on their IPods. They bathed and didn't smell like a rotting pile of garbage in a jogging suit and flip-flops. Children didn't travel alone, commuting between trailer parks. There were no mongolhordes asking for a "mu-fuggin" seatbelt extension or a Scotch and grapefruit juice cocktail with a twist.

If the Captain wanted to throw some offensive, ranting jerk off the airplane, it was done without any worries of a lawsuit or getting fired.

Axial flow engines crackled with the sound of freedom and left an impressive black smoke trail like a locomotive burning soft coal. Jet fuel was cheap and once the throttles were pushed up, they were left there, after all it was the jet age and the idea was to go fast (run like a lizard on a hardwood floor). Economy cruise was something in the performance book, but no one knew why or where it was. When the clacker went off no one got all tight and scared because Boeing built it out of iron, nothing was going to fall off and that sound had the satisfying effect on real pilots then as Viagra does now for those new age guys.

There was very little plastic and no composites on the airplanes or the Stewardesses' pectoral regions.

Airplanes and women had eye pleasing symmetrical curves, not a bunch of ugly vortex generators, ventral fins, winglets, flow diverters.

Airlines were run by men like C.R. Smith and Juan Trippe who had built their companies virtually from scratch, knew many of their employees by name and were lifetime airline employees themselves...not pseudo financiers and bean counters who flit from one occupation to another for a few bucks, a better parachute or a fancier title while fervently believing that they are a class of beings unto themselves.

And, thus, so it was back then....and never will be again.

(Rudy Mack wrote: Fri, 12/19/08)

(refer JetBlast)

DK

the wizard of auz

21st Dec 2008, 23:34

AAh, those were the days...... I wish I was around then to enjoy them. :ok:

bushy

22nd Dec 2008, 00:16

The good old days. When we weren't good, and we werem't old.

gettin' there

22nd Dec 2008, 02:47

Since there is so much useless stereotyping and BS being flung around in here ill add my two cents worth. :)

Lets go back a step and imagine about what the generations before the baby boomers and Gen X said about them.

I bet you the veterans who saw service and learnt to fly during the war then moved into civil aviation probably thought that the "young upstarts" they had to share the flight decks with probably had it pretty easy by comparison too.

I reckon that 10 000hrs on a piston single years ago (that was new then but is proably still getting around the traps now) before moving "up" proably semed pretty easy at the time after you had seen the horros of war and been shot at!!!

The fact of life is that the older generation is ALWAYS going to think that the younger guys/gals "these days" have got it easy, no matter what the truth is. Aviation like anything goes through cycles and comparing one persons expereince 30 years ago to a person's now is like comparing apples and oranges.

Things change, deal with it.