Sia Cargo -voluntary No Pay Leave

[CARGOJOCK]

hot off the press SIA cargo issues notice for pilots to consider-involuntary no pay leave.

period- 18/24/30 months

excess by 22 captain and 36 first officers.

secondment to great wall AL/rishworth and Air India

well what have they done to us.............

some new intakes have been cancelled and training stopped.

WHY WERE THE RECRUITING IN THE EXCESS WHEN WE HAD THE CADRE.

this is not all the statement also mentions "........the company will review its stratergy of reducing excess crew members in early 2009.An update circular shall be sent in the new year"

No bonus for sure.

[ssangyongs]

i'm going home

[CARGOJOCK]

it is a grave situation compared to the meeting held for the crew on the 24th november,which stated no retrenchment or no pay leave etc.

the bonds shall continue to run until your last date whether your in or out. your money is theirs still got hold of, by your NUTS!!!!!!!!!!

this is the result of poor planning and over recruitment which went on till the last 2 months.what do you expect the new guys were sent home even before they started the course.call that a shell shocker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no change over to the mainline they too are over the limits but thats their prized cash cow so we have to take the hit. the fleet is downsized from the present 14 to 10 aircraft. 2 leave for GWL and 2 as standby.

operations(SOP) have turned hectic, shut no 3 engine for taxi,flap 25 landings, full CLB after T/O no derate, CI=0 then in CRZ to 50 bloody confusing.

crew utilisation is very low due inefficient rostering.

well not a good time to be in WSSS but we will have to wait and see.i am sure the lads are nervy. first to go will be the 60's group, then the SAS lads who are on secondment, then the trouble makers then the bottom of the pile.we all hope it does not come to this.

however arrangements are made to join GWL /AI thru rushworth.

rumour has it full implementation is in feb 2009. well brace for it boys.it gonna be a a rocky drive.

[point8six]

The "hectic operations" you refer to, have been SOP'S in many 747 operators for some years. Some operators shut down both inboards when taxying in, conditions permitting.

[Mentor_Minister]

Man The Life Rafts...the boat is sinking.....
Ok so let me see if I have got it right...
They asking for Volunteers for No Paid Leave...
Who dont know if they still got a job after the leave runs out because that is not guaranteed
Who are supposed to keep their own licences current to ensure they can come back to a job, if one still exists for them
Who have their work passes cancelled so dont have any legal right to work in Singapore
Who are still bonded to the company even though they dont work for them anymore
Who will have to let the company hold their bank guarantees even though they are not in their employ
Who basically get nothing but a vague promise of maybe a job in the future

Wow lets see how many guys would sign up for this....all the best SINCARGO

[Left Coaster]

Have you seen the state of the cargo by air industry lately? Spinning down like a top! Airlines failing by the day...As an company it would be irresponsible to do nothing...in this case SIA Cargo is trying to survive a catastrophic economy by offering to voluntarily reduce its workforce...what other options would you propose? How about they simply can your butt and wave goodbye? Think before you act...this option might save your job if another of your brother pilots accepts...nice to see that Cargo Jock can only see the shyte here...

[ULH Extreme]

Lefty, They have made this option such a no brainer that no one will take it. Then they can fire drivers, which they really want to do, with their hand over the heart saying " But we really did try to help you" SIA always has to win outright, they don't believe in win win situations.

[echopapa]

If SIA Cargo has to release pilots, are there any existing schemes to transfer pilots from SIA cargo to pax fleet?

[CubaLibre]

SQ mainline has an excess of pilots at the moment as well.

[echopapa]

I guess this is part and parcel of being a line staff. Its something that the veterans are always aware of, but probably not familiar to the new pilots - that the pilot's career is not as glamorous as they always see. In situations like this, when the company is not doing well - the line staff will understandably go first. and because the pilot is just doing a routine job of flying the plane from point A to point B, there is not much value add to consider retaining a pilot during economic downturns. Its different with talent in the Corporate world who is sought after their brains, not their hands.

Most important to pilots are - live a reasonably humble lifestyle and don't be tempted to think that they belong to an elitist bunch (thus the accompanying lifestyle). Therefore, when times are bad - they don't end up at the wrong end of a long debt list, and a relatively lower wage.

[GlueBall]

Singapore's "officially" in recession; haven't you heard? :{

[in FACT is]

is it true or rumours?? a friend of me is flying for SinCargo, and he never heard this and "Bussiness as usual" in SinCargo, Singapore is rich country in South East Asia, slowing down might be possible but to terminate contract hope they don't do it:ok:

[777heavy]

EchoPapa, What planet are you from!!

‘and because the pilot is just doing a routine job of flying the plane from point A to point B, there is not much value add to consider retaining a pilot during economic downturns. Its different with talent in the Corporate world who is sought after their brains, not their hands’

Is this how you think about your collegues, that they have no brains. Who do you think got the world into the mess it is in at the moment. Yes, that’s right. The greedy corporate world with their ‘brains’ that you so much admire.

If we are not to retain pilot’s, then lets just get rid of all the planes too.

Jeez mate, you need an attitude check. Best go back to the cadet pages, where most of your posts are from you silly individual!!!

[linksys]

EchoPapa, sounds like a management Sympathizer.

Careful with your comments before a Lynching mob comes for you.

Giving u a good A@#$ whoopin..

Just Bend over to receive your 'present'

:ok:

[ArkPilot]

EP is not a mgt. sympathizer, he's just looking for a transfer to SQ.;)

[winglet_fever]

i personally think leave without pay is a face saving trick SinCargo is trying to pull to avoid having 'retrenchment' word being used again in SIA's history. by sending pilots away till their contract runs out will simply render them having fulfilled their contract with Sincargo, thus the company doesnt have to set precedence of contract write off.

what do you guys think?

[Left Coaster]

Think? I know it's a standard employment method that's been used by countless companies (not just airlines) for many years...I don't know what the fuss is about! :bored:

[parabellum]

The process of re-activating previous company pilots is much quicker than employing new ones and training them from scratch, it also leaves SIA with some liability I would have thought?

I, like many others, hope the current downturn will soon reach bottom and start up wards again, then air cargo should improve too. If SIA really didn't think that the market was going to improve more in the short term than the long term I doubt they would have any hesitation in giving people their notice.

Don't forget that SIA have very substantial cash reserves measured in billions and could afford to keep their entire work force on paid leave for quite some time, it just isn't 'Their Way' if they can get people to take unpaid leave then they consider it a 'win' - Bean Counters prevail, remember? Just how bad are the Terms and Conditions of unpaid leave and has anyone tried negotiation?

[echopapa]

i don't mean to offend anyone, but i'm not so certain whats making u angry - me or the fact that the truth hurts.

its when we realize who we are in the overall scheme of things, then we will be prudent and humble.

[Capt.Bee]

echopapa said:
"I believe its more policy that a candidate has to wait a minimum of 6mths between interviews. Don't be too sad, as this time can be translated into a lot of self reflection, improvement and also try to get some renewed sense of belief in yourself.
If you have read my earlier posts, I have gone for first interview 3 times, still not successful..but not givin up as yet.
It doesn't matter if its not meant to be, but as long as they are still keen to give me a shot at the interview, I will try. So don't u feel too disheartened."

Kid,who the he!! do you think, you are? Santa Claus or may be Santa Clown ?
Get lost and do some self reflection, smarty! :yuk:

[ULH Extreme]

EP is trying for the position of cadet pilot, not Cargo, hence his 3 attempts so far. Maybe his attitude even turned off the guys doing the interviews.:E

[Orangputi]

EP I think you are way out of your station here lad and all you are doing is making a goose of yourself:=, best go back to wearing your school socks and leave it to the men to discuss!

[CARGOJOCK]

guys,

i heard the newspapers have got a wind of the NPL scheme and they are hungry for information as SQ is always of interest.

i also heard the SQ management is rather concerned as the SQ method of bleeding cargo for there prosperity is gonna unfold and cause embarrassment.
how SQcargo has to pay for SQ belly cargo and tech positioning tickets at high prices and services as engineering etc. they (SQ MAINLINE) charge the sun and the moon and pluck away our nuts for their sustenance.

stay together ..........mainline rats are trying to convince the SQ management that they should come back into correct the situation. remember those moron's well we must keep them out.

hang on lads, the new year is gonna be full of surprises. Oh yes i heard a modest bonus will be paid to us too, follwoed by a kick to the asses of the masses.

hey has anybody seen bananasbananas on the thread now that he is an instructor he is a management licker, remember his start with bang?

take care all safe flying.

[Left Coaster]

So how about the sources of these rumours?

[millerscourt]

CARGOJOCK re Bananasbananas

You have a good point there. He always had a comment to make once upon a time. One week the recruiting sergeant for SIA Cargo, the next telling us it was a load of crock. He was already half native of course when he joined SIA from RBA but now the transformation would appear to be complete:D

In view of the harsh economic climate sweeping through aviation he is very wisely keeping his head below the parapet, even more so perhaps in view of his new exalted position?

[Flaperon777]

You guyz talking 'bout bananasbananas right...?? Initials G....??
I think I know what he's up to......

[expat400]

Guys, if Bananasbananas is the one I think he is then he is a good example of that you DON'T need to be a "management licker" to be an instructor.

When I look at the instructors I see very few that I think qualify for the bad mouthing of Cargojock.

[echopapa]

ahh, u should hear of the last interview with SQ. When they asked me of my annual pay as middle management staff, i can see how unhappy he look at the salary i'm drawing at this age. (he's some old chap, prob one of those old pilots).

Anyway, i did tell him that its acceptable salary package as we use lots of maturity and brains in our jobs, not just flying from point A to point B. So i told him, SQ may have a diff criteria when selecting candidates.. and i did tell him that if one is to read some of the way that even captains are talking in pprune org - its obvious what sorta calibre they have between the ears.

That parting shot and the look on the interviewer's face - priceless. ;)

[daily_sky]

ahh, u should hear of the last interview with SQ. When they asked me of my annual pay as middle management staff, i can see how unhappy he look at the salary i'm drawing at this age. (he's some old chap, prob one of those old pilots).

Anyway, i did tell him that its acceptable salary package as we use lots of maturity and brains in our jobs, not just flying from point A to point B. So i told him, SQ may have a diff criteria when selecting candidates.. and i did tell him that if one is to read some of the way that even captains are talking in PPRuNe org - its obvious what sorta calibre they have between the ears.

That parting shot and the look on the interviewer's face - priceless. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif


I am sorry about the misinformation you have fallen victim to echopapa, but I can safely assure you that life in the airline industry requires more of a person than "just flying from point A to point B". Allow me to enlighten you.

An airline pilot takes on a complex set of responsibilities that traverse various levels of consideration (technical, practical, legal, ethical, etc). Some of the decisions that a pilot makes exemplify the "lots of maturity and brains in our jobs" that you imply pilots need not exercise.

Here's a small sample of the numerous factors that serve as intellectual stimulation for a pilot:

1. Checking weather to make sure the flight can be completed safely AND legally. This includes knowing where the good weather is if things REALLY go bad.
2. Ensuring that adequate fuel is carried to safely and legally complete the flight. Is the weather bad and delays or holding likely? Is the airport congested with delays likely? Will the airplane need to wait in line to get de-iced before takeoff? (This takes time and uses fuel; you may need to take a few hundred extra pounds).
3. Are any nagivation aids inoperative that affect the flight? Any construction or runway closures at the destination or departure airport that will affect you? Are any of the instrument approaches at your destination out of service?
4. Does the weather require you to have an alternate airport? Do you have enough fuel to safely/legally fly to it?
5. Is the airplane safe for flight? Dents, dings, cut tires, maintenance write-ups that haven't been properly addressed?
6. You are responsible for properly briefing the flight attendants and your first officer. (This is essentially a review of SOP's as well as any additional things that are particular to how you "do business").
7. You're responsible for ensuring that every single regulation (as well as your airline's standard operating procedures) is followed.
8. You are responsible to safely handle anything and everything that occurs during flight. Engine failure, thunderstorms, airport closures, system malfunctions.
9. You're responsible for knowing all limitations applicable to your aircraft (max airspeeds for gear and flaps, max takeoff & landing weights, max temps for the engines, etc).
10. Does the runway have water, snow, ice or slush on it? If so is it long enough to handle an aborted takeoff? What about at your destination? If the runway is covered with snow can you stop before running off the end? If it's windy and the runway is slippery can you safely handle the crosswind?

That is just a small sprinkling of what an airline pilot has on his mind during a day at the "office". Hope it provides you with better insight as to the "maturity and brains" this job demands.

I haven't even touched on the most crucial element, which is being personally resposible for hundreds of lives at times. No other job has a greater claim of being one of life and death. Put it this way. When you mess up your work with a pilot at your workplace, the pilot doesn't die. When a pilot messes up his work with you at his "workplace", YOU DIE. Think about that the next time you're on a business trip.

But perhaps the most disappointing aspect of all this is the inflated importance you seem to place on salaries and the monetary aspects of a person's career. The sooner you realise that money is not everything in this world, the better for you. I know what I'm talking about. Being a first class honours graduate from a finance-related field, I has a handful of offers from multinational finance companies with attractive salaries. My father owns an SME himself, where I could easily be a director. But none of this mattered when I applied with SIA to be a cadet pilot. And having just cleared my final interview and now waiting for the privilege of joining this fine organisation, I have absolutely no regrets at giving up salaries that would probably exceed what you currently draw.

Why, you ask? Because matters of the heart extend well beyond the wallet my friend. Matters such as family, friends, and in this case, the honour of being a part of the airline industry and SIA. You probably know that yourself, which explains why, despite boasting about your good "annual pay as middle management staff", you have tried 3 times over to get through SIA's first interview even while in your 30s, and have even made enquiries with MAS via email about your eligibility for their programme (trust me, I know all this).

Being a cadet-to-be, I respect every one of these men immensely for the courage, intellect and sense of responsibility, among other things, that they bring to the flight deck. And that respect will never cease or waver. Yes, you are right to say that "SQ may have a diff criteria when selecting candidates" as compared to what you possess. But to add to that, the different criteria SQ is looking for is the right criteria.

Hope things are a little clearer to you now, echopapa. Cheers.

[Che Xindamail]

Very well said indeed. Best of luck!

[Chambudzi]

EP seems to think that Pprune is some sort of worthwhile mouth piece for judging the ability of our managers. Surely that conclusively shows how little grey matter there is in EP's head.
My guess is that EP came to an interview, was found out for his arrogance and stupidity and was shown the door. Now of course he is full of poison. Besides if you are such a hero manager EP, what on earth were you doing looking for a line Capts job in SIA.
We really dont need small minded little f$rts like you coming here to tell us how to run our successful coy. We are doing just fine without you so stay away sunshine.

[Flaperon777]

Daily sky.......
Very very well put my friend.I could'nt have put it better myself...!!
KUDOS...!! And keep it up....:ok::ok::ok:
Why do I have a nagging feeling EP=Getsetgo(remember him...??...lolol)
Well cheers to that....

[Arkdriver]

that's why tryhards will always be just that.

welcome to the fold, daily_sky!

[SG_Aviator]

I will toast to that Daily Sky! * dirty looks at EP...tsk tsk*


Hope to see you at flight school!

Cheers!

[daily_sky]

Wow, I definitely did not expect my maiden post to be so well-received. This sure vindicates the conviction in my heart about being with the right group of men.

@ Che Xindamail, Flaperon777 and Arkdriver:

Thanks for the well-wishes fellas! I am sure they will serve me well as I seek to make my way through the training process and emulate your success. I really do feel at home here. As Arkdriver put it, "welcome to the fold" indeed. Now if only I can get that all-important positive medical result. Pray for me! :)

@ SG_Aviator:

Thanks man, glad to know someone who's in the same boat as me. Hopefully we end up being coursemates, that way we can toast to just about everything! Haha.. keep me posted on your medical results yeah? All the best! :ok:

[CARGOJOCK]

Hi Lads,

Just heard on the news that SIA CARGO will defend itself in court against allegations of price fixing in the australian market between th eperiod 2001-2005.

as rumour has it the loss that was incurred at SIA CARGO is themoney allocated for fines payable in 2009 after the court cases in the USA/NZ and AUST.

all the cargo operators had been investigated and all had been fined to the tune of millions. all were settled out of courts as if court proceedings take place sensitive company data is made public.so the settlements KAL had appealed but rejected and had to provide all details.

2009 is gonna be an embarrassing year for the "FINE CITY" in asia........you know who?

[Flaperon777]

daily sky,
Welcome to the brotherhood bro.Welcome to Pprune.
Sorry did'nt notice that it was your first post.Just goes to show how interesting it was.... :)!!
Excellent one at that!
Merry christmas.

[daily_sky]

@ Flaperon777 :

Thanks again bro, merry Christmas to you too. :)

And to one and all, here's to a splendid Christmas and a great 2009. Cheers!

[portquartercv67]

I bought my freedom from SIAC almost six months ago. I wasn't allowed to leave paradise without paying every penny I owed according to the contract (prorated bond and taxes). However, I am still waiting for the money they owe me for moving benefits upon termination, also in the same contract. Now I know why.

PS: Don't be so hard on BananasBananas. Maybe when ALPA-S put his nose out of joint earlier this year, he decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Speaking of ALPA-S, where are they in this "unpaid leave, we got your money" scam?

PQ

[Flaperon777]

Just out of curiosity PQ......and maybe stupidity.....
WHY were you leaving SIAC again......???
WITHOUT your bond period expiring that is.
Also,why would SIAC retain bond money AFTER expiry of your bond period....?? Sounds like BS to me.Or something HUGELY illegal.
Or maybe a bit of both huh.........??:ugh:
Why don't YOU tell me.......
F7

[Jimmy Do Little]

EP...

I guess this is part and parcel of being a line staff. Its something that the veterans are always aware of, but probably not familiar to the new pilots - that the pilot's career is not as glamorous as they always see.


Well, you did get that part correct, but....

... and because the pilot is just doing a routine job of flying the plane from point A to point B, there is not much value add to consider retaining a pilot during economic downturns. Its different with talent in the Corporate world who is sought after their brains, not their hands.


you certainly made a jackass of yourself with that statement!

In fact, that statment proves the stupidity of so many airline managers. "...let's sack the expensive - experienced - pilots and load ourselves up with a bunch of inexperienced guys who won't cost us so much in salaries. Albiet, they'll burn up more fuel; wear-out more brakes; have a few extra runway excusions; scare the b'jesus out of more passengers; and probably increase our insurance rates, but we'll save a few bucks on salaries. :ugh:

[CARGOJOCK]

hi lads,

read the strait times article of 1st january titled "SIA TO GROUND AT LEAST ONE JET", AND the flight international of 16 dec-5th january page 21, under the caption "BA,QANTAS,FINED FOR PRICE FIXING"

well the first article in strait times, it appears the article has had the report from the company spokesman mr stephen forshaw.
the article mentions the planned pilot reduction and fleet reduction by parking them 744F in the mojave desert.BUT few are aware that SIAC is taking a B744F-BCF from mainline.makes no sense, but to mainline to keep their core business on track.
also,no mention of the "fine" that will be imposed on the company in the new year for which SIAC has set aside US$70 million for the cases filed by US/AUST and NZ authorities.

the radio has had a few statements of the SIA predicament and local TV.

the flight international article is clear.

so the fine city will face its own music and is taking the downturn to shred fat,even the expat mainline rats are not spared.

"may you live in interesting times"