Where do you go after a failed CPL exam appeal to CASA?

[Integro]

Hey Guys,

I've sent of an appeal to CASA and they rejected it once. The first email I sent it was pretty slack, it just mentioned the regulation that I was following and didn't really offer any insight in to my decision.

I've just sent off my second email to them. It contains an in depth explanation, with my reasoning as to why I gave the answer that I did. I also supported my explanation with the CAR's.

I don't imagine that CASA would want to give me the point since it would almost be like them admitting that they were wrong (like most organisations they are unlikely to want to admit fault).

If they don't come to the party is there any where else I can go? Surely they're not the be all and end all. To add to the frustration they won't explain themselves, they just say "No" and leave you in the dark. It's like they don't have to justify their reasons and it frustrates the hell out of me! How can you debate a point when the other side can hide behind their iron curtain?!

That's the end of my rant but any advice would be much appreciated!

[redline666]

Where to go if CASA do not rule in your favour, I'm not so sure.

However, if you feel you have been treated unfairly, or CASA haven't justified themselves in your ruling, The Indutry Complaints Commissioner is a good place to air your concerns.

Unfortunately, I've had to raise my case with them once before, within 2 days of the complaint, my problem was rectified. So definitely worth a go.

About CASA - CASA Industry Complaints Commissioner (http://www.casa.gov.au/corporat/complaints.htm)

[hung start]

I have actually had Casa ( DCA maybe DOT ) review an engineering exam wayback and i didnt ask for it , they came up with a pass for several of us , apparently someone requested it because we did so bad , they had mixed up the marking sheets . I have requested a remark for some flying exams and was given the same reply as you . Back to the books i,m afraid their is several correct answer but only one really correct .Remember there is always light at the end of the tunnel but first you have to find the tunnel . Good Luck

[Di_Vosh]

I think you need to give some more details if you want some meaningful advice.

e.g. Which exam, which answer were you contesting, etc.

[Howard Hughes]

It might be an idea to wait for a reply to your second email! In general if you quote an applicable CAO, CAR, or part of the act, you will probably get a favourable result.

If not, you might try the 'Commonwealth Ombudsman', or an Aviation Solicitor. I don't know how much help they would be, but CASA may back down if threatened with legal action, just be sure first that your interpretation is correct!:ok:

PS: Wanna give us a hint what it was about?;)

[Integro]

Good point about shedding some light with the question/answers involved.

It was my CPL Law exam and here is some more info :ok:

The question was about a blind or def guy with his dog on the plane. Following are the two answers you had to choose from as usual the other two were pretty stupid and I don't even recall what they were.

"The dog should be restrained in the passenger cabin". or "The dog should be placed in a container in the cargo area".
When looking over the options I read over CAR 256A (2) Which states:

Subregulation (1) does not apply to the dog accompanying a visually impaired or hearing impaired person as a guide or an assistant if the dog is:
(a) carried in the passenger cabin of the aircraft; and
(b) placed on a moisture-absorbent mat as near to the person as practicable; and
(c) restrained in a way that will prevent the dog from moving from the mat.

Subregulation (1) states:
Subject to subregulation (8), the operator of an aircraft may permit a life animal to be in the aircraft only if:
(a) the animal is in a conatiner and is carried in accordance with this regulation; or
(b)the animal is carried with the written permission of CASA and in accordance with any conditions specified in the permissions.

Subregulation (5) A container in which an animal is kept must not be in the passenger cabin of an aircraft.

So I wrote an email to them and finished with the following:

"In all fairness it is unlikely that you would be able to specify all of those details down to every last detail however since point (b) and point (c) are both focused on the "moisture-absorbent mat" and there was no mention of the mat in any of the answers I felt that subregulation (2) was in no way fulfilled.
Once again to be clear the requirements of subregulation (2) were not met, when the subregulation specifically says that subregulation (1) does not apply "if the dog is:" and then lists 3 requirements point (a) (b) and (c)....Yes, point (a) was covered, point (b) was not covered at all and point (c) was half covered however with no mention of the mat.

I'm sure if I were flying a blind PAX and his dog from Ayers Rock to Darwin and upon arrival at Darwin a CASA representative were to find my blind PAX and his dog in the back of my aircraft with urine and faeces all over the cabin floor (according to Dr Tami M Hawes it is natural for a dog to defecate when stressed) with no moisture absorbent mat I would be penalise for such an incident. Given that most humans are stressed by travel in light aircraft it is highly likely that a dog would be to, which is why one would assume subregulation (2) is so specific with regard to the moisture-absorbent mat (for passenger and cabin crew health and safety).

It is obvious that this question and the answers were placed there to try and trip up the candidate that is unaware of the other subregulations of regulation 256A. However it seems that I have been penalised for following the laws as specified in the Civil Aviation Regulations. Having made the same decision that CASA would expect me to make in a real world situation. I don't see how you can expect a pilot to give one answer in an exam and then interpret the law differently when flying.

As you would be well aware we are not lawyers and this email is probably not the strongest argument that can be put forward. Had I wanted to become a lawyer and spend the rest of my life twisting, interpreting and reading laws in a way that suited me or my client I would have pursued a law degree.

I have followed the laws as given and in a way that would avoid any fines or potential conflicts in a real world situation (which I would assume is the purpose to these exams, to see that a pilot can understand how to operate once he/she has attained a Commercial Pilots Licence) and I would expect that to be recognised.

This was a calculated response and when I saw that I had been penalised for it I was shocked when I'm sure I was one of the few people that spent the time to fully understand and interpret the question."

Thanks for your advice so far. I'm sure they just hope that one would give up before getting a lawyer and you have to start looking at costs etc. All too often it's the ones that are willing to spend the time, effort and money complaining that win!

[solowflyer]

I have had an exam remarked and gained another 10%. That was in NZ and was a paper based exam with ASL.

Unless they come to the party I'm sad to say you may just have to grin and bear it and resit. ASL are not a very nice mob to deal with and will no doubt the mongrels will charge you for all they can.:ugh:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Did you fail the exam?

If yes. Then suck it up, harden the f*&k up and study some more.

The doggy doo question must not have been the only question you got wrong; so someone is doing you a favour by giving you a kick in the arse and telling you to learn your stuff. Crying over a dud question (right or wrong) isn't helping you prepare for the "journey of knockbacks"

If no. Then move on and shout the bar!:ok:

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[Peter Fanelli]

Mr Buzzy I couldn't agree more with you on this one.

Can't imagine how the "now" generation would cope with the days when we could only take exams at times set by the department, only twice or maybe three times a year.

[sms777]

I like your style Mr.Buzzy.....and i agree with you 100 percent :ok:
I also failed my first CPL exam 17 years ago. Although it has shattered my ego, went back, studied harder without complaining and passed the second time with 95 percent.

So... take Mr.Buzzy's advice and harden the f**k up!

[Kelly Slater]

The dog should be allowed in the cabin with its master. This is one of the least ambiguous CASA questions that I have ever seen and your argument one of the weakest. You are trying very hard to introduce confusion into a straight forward situation. Perhaps you would be better off disputing another wrong answer.

[bestpilotindaworld]

get over it and move on. you are wasting your time and other peoples time.

[Mr.Buzzy]

I take your point about studying so that this sort of situation doesn't arise, however you have to understand how bloody FRUSTRATING it is knowing that you're right, and CASA simply won't admit to being wrong.

What makes you think we haven't dealt with them Robinson Crusoe?

bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Led Zep]

At $160 per shot, I'd be fighting for an extra 3% if I needed it!

[VH-XXX]

Why would a DEAF person want to take his dog on a plane?

Was the dog a blind dog? If so, he wouldn't care where he was on the flight.

[Integro]

Yeah that's it anyone who's under the age of 40 doesn't know how to work hard or sacrifice to get something they really want. As soon as they complain it's because they're a soft little kid who has had it easy all his/her life.

I agree to some extent that the "younger" generation has had it easier in some regard but the "older" generation seems to think that's the reason behind everything.

If you want to whinge and moan about generation x and y start your own thread. That being said I appreciated the following comment you made Buzzy. It's a pity it was amongst personal attacks and accusations.

isn't helping you prepare for the "journey of knockbacks"How about you try not to get personal in here and maintain a little bit of a professionalism. It seems like you and a few others who have posted in this thread have a bit of a chip on your sholder. I'm sorry that it's so easy for everyone who's doing their pilots licence now. Geeze we have it easy!

The issue here is not pass or fail. I would have thought in a Law exam you'd be expected to answer the questions to the letter of the Law.

The dog should be allowed in the cabin with its masterThanks for the insight Kelly Slater, however in the CPL Law exam they're not testing you on what you think should or shouldn't happen. It is an examination of your knowledge and understanding of the laws. It's pretty clear in the Reg's what the requirements are.

For those that actualy care about the outcome of this rather than just having a go at me and "my generation" for being so "soft". Here's an update:

After speaking with a CASA representative I was advised that an animal not on a moisture absorbent mat posses a safety/slip hazard and what it can leave behind could potentially cause excessive corrosion to the air frame. (Which is why the regulation was created). He also clarified that "in the real world" if a CASA representative were to inspect my PAX/Cargo and find a blind mans dog in the cabin not on a mositure absorbent mat that I'd be penalised for not following the Reg's.

This is one of the least ambiguous CASA questions that I have ever seen and your argument one of the weakestobviously not.....

[Iinthesky]

Integro,

I can appreciate that you are frustrated and disappointed that you didn't get through this exam. In my experience CASA (and all of it's other previous names) are not the most responsive when it comes to feedback. So perhaps persuing this tact is only going to frustrate you even more.

I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), that the current Airlaw exam is marked out of 40, requiring a pass mark of 80%. From reading between the lines I would hazard a guess that you have fallen perhaps one question short of this mark.

Throughout your career, and I hope it is a long and fulfilling one, you should always strive to do your best. You appear to have a fairly firm grasp of the regulations and I would suggest that arguing to just scrape over isn't your best.

Put it down to a bad day or that CASA questions are poorly written (nothing has changed), study a little more and get 100%.

It is probably the most efficient course of action because it will save you developing a stomach ulcer and a sore head from dealing with CASA.:ugh:

Watching,
I

[tinpis]

I reckon I sat SCPL at least 500 times and there were worse buggers than me :}

[flyinggit]

On a side note to all this would it be wise to 'rock the CASA boat'? Afterall I often hear that any regulatory body (such as CASA) can at times have loooooong memories!
As far as the gen 'Y' Etc goes, well it's a different world we live/fly in these days compared to 'yesteryear' when we had single engined bi-planes so comparing anything to the old days has little relevance most times.
'Integro' it's human nature to want to feel as though you have not failed at anything, but if you are correct & have proof even via these pages then you have the satisfaction in knowing that you have been right in the first place despite the governing bodies reluctance to say so:)


Flyinggit

[Integro]

After reading posts from guys who are obviously just here to stir the pot it's nice to hear some constructive feedback.

Iinthesky, you raise a very good point. I went in to the last exam without an AIP or Jepps. I'm sure I'll do much better given that my Jepps has now arrived. Thanks for the insparation to go out and do better. Your advice is a little more constructive than "harden the :mad: up".

flyinggit I have already heard stories of guys who CASA are always on to. You're probably right that it's not a bad idea to fly under the radar as best as one can :).

Thanks again!

[povopilot]

Mate, don't tell me you went into an Air Law exam without an AIP?

I found Air Law the easiest of the CPL's, as you just tag the hell out of all the doc's and get to know them back to front - if you know where to find the answers then it has to be impossible to stuff it up. It basically turns into an open book exam.

povopilot.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Jump the fiery hoops like everyone else.

Yer well said!!! make every newbie have to do the HARD yards like pilots before them.... Make every newbie work for condition less than the poverty line, Make every Pilot work his first job for free, make every newbie pay for his endorsement, make every newbie put up with Management that treats it's pilots with less respect than a Manigrida camp dog.

The pilots of yester year have truly paved the path for the newbies to have a long and lustrous career, paying for endorsement, excepting C$%P EBA"s, lying down to CASA etc, ect, etc .....

Your attitude of "I did it tough, so every other bastard has to as well" smells of a person who has spent his career, ass sniffing his way to what ever whole you are in now.


Integro..... Congratulations in having the balls to dispute your exam results with CASA, dont let these bitter and twisted w@nkers on here stop you from demanding what is fair. I hope you have success with your exams and hope you dont lose your grit like the twits on here have.

It's a long career, keeping your intigrity makes it so much more enjoyable.:ok: unless you get enjoyment about boasting how tough you have had it....




p.s to the spelling police.... I dont care...:E

[AussieNick]

Integro buddy, in short, you are going to get no where with CASA or ASL in relation to this. I'm on my last CPL exam and have noticed wrong questions in the exams i've done. They won't change them mate. Just have to move on, i know it sucks but thats the way casa roll.

[sicilian]

If the guy has missed out by a bees dick then why not dispute if he believes he should have got through. Those Casa exams are an irrelevant pain in the arse. Streuth, if I failed ATPL flight planning by 1% and reckon i got a hard deal I'd give CASA the full Darryl Kerrigan treatment!

[Charliethewonderdog]

That's also a choice you make, if you want to change it, it's up to you?? You guys cruel yourselves by having no alternatives.

It sure is..... and those choices that we make effect the industry as a whole...

[bentleg]

The exams are hard, and one doesn't always agree with the answers, but they set the rules. Many before have passed. So just have a stiff drink and (next day) book another test, do some more study, and you will pass. Get over it.........

[das Uber Soldat]

Jesus, talk about a case of 'back in my day!'. Let me guess, you had to walk 40 miles to school in the driving snow back home in Dubbo?

:rolleyes:

If you're right and you know it, you should bloody fight for the correct result. The concept that you should just swallow it and be proud of the fact that you're a down trodden idiot is hopefully a dying one.

And yes, I got 100% for CPL and ATPL law.

[Ambitious]

CASA (ASL) exams are unjustifiably expensive. I did my first exam a few weeks ago and, after forking out $170 for it, the supervisor was 20 mins late and the exam arrangements were less then satisfactory. :*

If you think you can claw the extra marks out of them, go for it mate! :ok:

[Kelly Slater]

The Regs are written to allow a blind or deaf person to take his or her dog on board. You have allowed yourself to get tangled up in the regs in a belief that CASA is out to get you rather than in what ther regs are trying to achieve. I have read the regs that you have sighted and I believe that you are wrong. My decision is not based on what I believe should happen but on my interpretation of the regs and I don't believe that you have a case.

[Nipper]

As I have stated before the key to passing CASA exams is to look for the key words in the question. In this case the key words are blind/deaf. Or more accurately “visually or hearing impaired”. Therefore the question was pointing you to 256(A)(2).:eek:

The fact that they don’t give you 256A(2)(a) or (b) as an answer is irrelevant, what they are looking for is that you can find the relevant section of the Regulation and in this case 256A(1)(a) does not apply. Most people will only read the first section of the Regulation eg 256A(1)(a) and select that answer. The first part of a Regulation states its purpose as dictated by the ACT and then the rest give you the exceptions.

Don’t try and extrapolate outside the question, as soon as you apply “what ifs” you will get it wrong.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Slight Drift......

Back in 'dem good ole days - KG FSU -

"Taxying, IMT, KG for MEEKA, 2 on board, me and me dog".

True story. Good old Mr 'Mc' - he was 80 then - a legend! :ok:

One day he departed sans dog. Forgot he'd left it in the shade of the unit.
"Ah...can you fellas look after him till I get back?"

He picked it up on the return trip - some 2 - 3 weeks later. :)

(Couldn't imagine he even knew about the regs....)

[Xcel]

Or to get ahead you find yourself in a foreign country only to be shot at/held up and thinking you're about to die, all for the sake of your flight bag and the equivalent of a few miserable dollars.

oh the memories...



mate pretty straight forward exam just dont read into it as much its all there in black and white...

agree with the posts on here just resit and suck it up.

next time read the question and note the keywords... nipper has it all there.

dogs in cargo exception is if its accompanying a seeing/hearing impaired person. sorry but if you didnt put the restrained in cabin and you said in a box in cargo your wrong.

Subregulation (1) does not apply to the dog accompanying a visually impaired or hearing impaired person you said it yourself

about the pee and shiit mate they are trained to put up with it and would be very surprised if that happened in your "rea life" situation and wouldnt you just walk it before anyway. I have had grown people pee on seats before think a dogs would be better to clean up.

[framer]

Hate to break it to ya but this isn't like at school where everyone was a winner and points were awarded for trying. Life isn't fair . Don't waste too much energy trying to make it that way cause it just won't happen. Instead of writing emails study some law and try to pass it.

[bentleg]

Instead of writing emails study some law and try to pass it.

Well said :ok::D

[splinter11]

after reading this thread i can't believe how many bitter and twisted people there are in aviaition.

fight the question integro, take it to CASA and bloody ASL, they are both a bunch of rip off artists

[Capt Wally]

....'splinter11' couldn't agree with you more. And to think we are ALL meant to be professionals here.. huh !



CW

[Kangaroo Court]

I think anyone here has a story of an exam they had trouble with somewhere along the line. For me it was SCPL/ATPL Flight Planning. It was based on the 727-200 and it was the only exam I've ever failed-twice!! Can you imagine how bad that made me feel!

It's good to be able to laugh about it now.

[youngmic]

It is contestable if the question is overly misleading (although aren't they all?) or wrong.

ATPL Law 3 years ago, passed no worries but one question gave me the irits as it was crap and could be very easily misinterpreted.

Two phone calls and it was pulled.

They are reasonable when it's easily fixed and an obivious flaw.

[bluesky300]

As an aviation lawyer, may I say that at law the answer is entirely clear; if there is no absorbant pad and no reference to the dog being restrained, it MUST be carried in a container. No ifs and no buts; the parts of the Reg are cumulative, not disjunctive, and in the real world if you tried to carry a seeing eye dog with a blind handler without an absorbant pad and a restraint you would be completely stuffed on landing when the Inspector greeted you. The question is either wrong or so misleading as to be wrong.

[HardCorePawn]

Heh... I did CPL Law here in NZ a short while ago...

One of the questions was relating to General Aviation Area's... ie. a "simple" lookup in the AIP about the requirements for activating, the controlling authority and the comm frequency to do so...

Unfortunately, the AIP's had been amended in the weeks leading up to the exam and of course the GAA in question had been modified (from ATC Approval to ATC Notification and the frequency had changed)...

Unfortunately, this meant that there were 2 completely wrong answers... and 2 half correct answers... one had correct activation type but incorrect frequency, the other had incorrect activation type but correct frequency.

I wrote a minor essay in the review/critique section at the end, justifying my answer...

Of course, I still got it 'wrong' (judging by the KDR's I got)... :ugh: :rolleyes:

Thankfully, I still passed comfortably...

[Integro]

For all those out there that have yet to get over how soft I am. Take another look at the title of the thread "WHERE DO YOU GO AFTER A FAILED CPL EXAM APPEAL TO CASA?"

I didn't ask where to go to cry about a failed exam, I didn't ask where to go for personal advice and I didn't ask where to go to listen to some old git rave about how hard life was when he was a budding pilot.

Good on you guys for coming out and slinging a bit of mud. Makes for a good laugh when reading this. Now that Bluesky300 has posted on here I think I might be on to something. Pretty sure he'll be able to offer some advice in this area!

Yeah it might upset the boys at CASA if I keep fighting this but I think it's a matter of principle. I'd rather give my hard earned money to a lawyer to fight for what is right than give it to ASL/CASA.

TID EDIT

Appreciate the advice Nipper. Just means that when you sit down for an exam do you look in to the details of the law or do you just go with the "key words" read the first paragraph and ignore the rest of the requirements?! Not having a go at you Nipper I just think they should be as particular in an exam as they would be in the real world.

[Spotlight]

Dogmatic types abound in flying.

Integro is just another one in the making.

Me! I've seen the odd anomally in the exact science of aviation. Funnily enough I think the rules worldwide and from their inception have been drafted with this in mind.

CASA though, well they breed dogmatic types so integro will probably have a win.

Me! I wouldn't give money to lawyers.

[Spodman]

I'm pretty sure I got this question on my PPL theory exam. I too was torn between the two options, as both were reasonably valid but incomplete answers. I picked one, and don't remember whether I got it marked right or not. There was another dodgy question about what is the most likely personal defect to render a pilot incapacitated. If I had read that question out in a game of Trivial Pursuit (tm) I'd have said, "Nup, crap question..." and chucked the card on the fire.

The point being, if this one question was on the knife edge of whether you passed or not then there were clearly plenty of other questions in the test that you were not properly prepared for. Learn your stuff and it wouldn't be a problem.

You failed the test, well rise above it and do it again.

[j3pipercub]

Hey Integro,

Sorry to hear about it. I had a similar situation in the CPL AGK exam. I found that in all honesty if I had my time over I just would have accepted CASA's bullsh1t answer and try again.

Believe it or not, I actually had two different officers in the Flight Crew Licensing division fighting with one another as to the wording and correct answers. Now if they can't agree amongst themsleves, what hope do they have of agreeing with you...

What I did was get exceedingly blind drunk after the exam and started over. I got it the second time around, and the ambiguous questions were still there, I just knew which answers they wanted to hear.

IMHO, the majority of the CASA exams lack any kind of industry relevance and are simply a hoop jumping exercise.

Good Luck with the re-sit Integro,

j3

[tio540]

Take heart Tinpis, back then it was a proper 8? exams over two days. Now you just self study, one at a time at your leisure.

[flyinggit]

Gee thee are some cruel people in here, I wonder what brings out that mean streak when someone is involved in aviation? My father said you would think that we where part of the painters & dockers union where thuggery was rife. I know there are mean spirited people in all walks of life even in my church believe it or not but it's as if someone has burnt an Aussie flag (something that's looked upon as an insult especially in the states) just because he wants to seek some answers, right or wrong.
So far I've not failed any exams but at 'integro's expense I think it would be wise for myself who's 'green' not to say too much in these pages about how to go about anything!:bored:
Harden the f#%#% ? that's disgusting & to think that there are some professional pilots here!


Flyinggit

[57GoldTop]

I'm too embarrassed to mention the number of times I attempted the CPL Air Law exam. The worst thing about my result was the fact that I missed out by one mark on two occasions, my situation with Dad's passing did not help me prepare for the exam thoroughly but I was determined and managed to get 93%.

I hope I never have to sit another exam the same number of times.

Make sure your CAO's, CAR's and AIP's are tabbed and up to date so that you can find the info quickly. The exam takes about an hour to do, the rest of your time should be spent checking your answers..

[Integro]

TID EDIT

Back on topic:

My flight school didn't have an AIP and I'd ordered and paid for my Jep's so I didn't want to go out and buy an AIP (the Jep's book took about a week longer than the guy told me it would to arrive).

Lesson learned with that one, also learned a lesson about asking for a little bit of advice from the people here on PPRuNe.

I just wanted some info on the appeal process and ended up getting some of that as well as a heap of views on my personality or weaknesses. Water off a ducks back but I think I'll just stick with speaking to trusted colleagues for advice in the future. Pity as there are some really helpful people on here, as always it's the minority that ruin it for the rest.

After I've finished with the appeal process I'll put up a post offering some insight as to how it all went and what steps I end up taking.

Cheers for the help guys!

[povopilot]

Your flight school didn't have an AIP!!! They let you go into an Air Law exam without one? Holy Smokes!!! Alarm bells are ringing mate.

How could you even study for the exam without an AIP? Half of the exam is based on rules/regs/proceedures out of the AIP. - I would be angry at your flight school, not the muppets at ASL.

For the record i picked up a few in-accuracies in my CPL exams (Spelling mistakes, wrong aerodrome id's, bad grammar) and i made note of all these and presented them to the examiner at the end of the exam. She was a bit unsure of what to do but forwarded them to her supervisor, and on each occasion i got an email from the head honcho of ASL thanking me for bringing these things to light and advising that said questions had been amended.

Good luck with the appeal mate, i am keen to know what the process and outcome is.

povopilot

[psycho joe]

Integro,

You lodged a complaint about a perceived injustice & got shot down. Good for you. :ok:

By taking further action you are figuratively banging your head against a brick wall about a non safety related issue. This is perceived at best as being misguided/delusional and at worst, a whiner. Hence the negative reactions.

Both the military and the airlines despise perceived whiners & I can guarantee that any hint of complaint as an OFF CDT that's seen as whining will be met with a "harden the f:mad:k up".

Aviation is full of injustices that are too numerous to mention. The smart money is on saving your fight for the times that people in aviation will try to kill you.

[Howard Hughes]

By taking further action you are figuratively banging your head against a brick wall about a non safety related issue. This is perceived at best as being misguided/delusional and at worst, a whiner. Hence the negative reactions.That's all well and good, but when a boss is asking you to do something not by the books and/or illegal, this might not be bad character trait to have!:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

540....

" back then it was a proper 8? exams over two days. "......

In NOV - was it '65? - a couple of us got together and stirred each other into sitting for the whole 5 in one sitting. (CPL- At Bondi Pavilion)
"Twas the last exam where 'Engines' and 'Airframes' were two separate subjects. We even managed a pass in SCPL MET at this sit.

We Passed all 5 OK - Then they were....O V A H !

Yeah.....'Landing Wires' - wot were they for now????:eek::eek:

[Fark'n'ell]

Where do you go after a failed CPL exam appeal to CASA?

Sit it again:ok:

[flyinggit]

Where do you go after a failed CPL exam appeal to CASA?

As the above poster said, sit it again. But to add another answer to yr original question 'integro', don't come to PPRUNE for an answer. You now know this now but had to get 'run over' by a few to find out that it's dangerous to cross the PPRUNE rd.

I'm sorry you got abuse from some of us in here, at least you have charactor, you have shown that your willing not to take something you believe in enough lying down. 'Howard Hughes" summed it up well.


Flyinggit

[Keg]

For some reason this old tale seems appropriate:

A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold the bird froze and fell to the ground in a large field. While it was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on it. As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, it began to realize how warm it was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy. A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug it out and ate it.

Management Lesson:
1) Not everyone who ****s on you is your enemy.
2) Not everyone who gets you out of **** is your friend.
3) And when you’re in deep ****, it’s best to keep your mouth shut.

Integro, I suggest re-reading management lesson 1. Then have a good hard think about lesson 2. Personally I reckon that if you persist in appealing then you're going to be living in lesson 3.

Of course, I could just be another person hanging crap on you too.

Good luck either way.

[smiling monkey]

That dog question in the CPL law exam has been around for years .. it was around when I sat for CPL law some 20 years ago now. Do you really think CASA is going to change the answer to that question after all these years, based on your appeal? If they do, it will mean that there's been an error in an exam question for over many years .. I doubt whether CASA will ever admit to that.

[scrufflefish]

"The dog should be carried in the cabin and restrained" is correct. The fact that it doesn't mention the mat is misleading, but it doesn't state that there is no mat. It leaves the mat question open. There are a lot of other requirements for the flight that are not mentioned as well. The question does not specifically state that the aircraft has a current MR or is below its MTOW or that the pilot has a medical.
It is an exercise in semantics, it is misleading and as someone who obviously knows the reg it must be very frustrating for you. There are many other equally badly worded questions in the air law exam. I guess the examiners are trying not to quote whole slabs of the regs in the answers to make it very clear, as that would jog your memory and make it easy. It is one of the failings of multiple choice questions when testing something that is more complex than a simple black and white answer.
If I ask the question "Is it permissible to carry a dog in the cabin of an aircraft?", the answer is "Yes". There are other requirements, but the answer is still "Yes". The fact that compliance with the other requirements is not specified in the question does not change the answer. If I add the word 'restrained' in front of 'dog', the answer is the same. If I add 'on an absorbent mat' after 'dog' its still the same.
The exam question is misleading because it does mention one other requirement (restraint), but does not address the mat issue.
It is not 'fair', but as others have said it is time to get over it and move on.
Good luck next time around.:ok:

[Integro]

Hey Psycho Joe, a far more reasonable post. Thanks for the insight, I had a feeling that I would be banging my head against a brick wall trying to fight CASA.

On the not about being a whiner I see CASA, Qantas and ADF as 3 completely different situations. While some people may act the same no matter where they are I do not.

I think with the ADF you're stepping in to a situation where you leave all of your rights and opinions at the door (some may not see it that way). I figure they are after "yes men" and that's what they'll get. For example, in the FSP you may rank very highly and may have blitzed the theory stuff and then in the OSB none of them want you because "they don't like you". There's nothing that you can do about that and you have to be prepared for that.

However ASL exam, I don't feel I owe ASL anything (I pay their wages not the other way around) and CASA are a governing body, some where that you would expect to be able to make an appeal.

Qantas and ADF may one day pay my wage for me = I do as I'm told when I'm told and how I'm told to do it.

Bit of a drift but something I thought I should mention.

[Oz_TB10]

Hey there,

I have sat for the ASL Air Law exams and had a question that went like this :

What are the hours of activation of RXXX.

I looked it up in ERSA double checked it, then ticked the right answer. Went through the entire paper again and tripple checked every answer.

Guess what!? I got that particular question wrong! How can that be? I refered to the correct source to check if the area was active or not.

Even if i did pass with 85%, i think it would be unfair, say if someone else had gotten 78% and failed because he answered correctly the same question!
( Told a mate of mine to answer the same question wrongly and he got the same Q and put down the wrong answer....passed with 80%)

ASL and CASA have to be sure, its their job!

[Jay Bo]

Surely someone should independently go in and audit all casa exams or casa should provide you when you have finished the exam the question you got wrong and the correct answer whilst at the testing centre on line. :ugh::ugh:

[the wizard of auz]

I agree. I had a couple of questions that were marked incorrect in a couple of exams that were unequivocally answered correctly. (I even copied them down with the answers to choose from for my CFI and Chief pilot.... they answered the same as me and were stunned to get it wrong)
After trying to get it through to ASL that there is a few problems within the system, I tried to chat to CASA about it. I may as well have bashed my head on a wall ......... they just will not hear that problems DO exist. they won't even entertain the idea that they may have got something wrong, and have geared the system so there is no way to dispute it or appeal to have the questions looked at. They have problems in the question database with right answers being marked as incorrect but will not look at it as the legal ramifications involved with money being paid for a faulty product and exams missed by one question would break them. :ugh:

[always inverted]

All to often with these exams, they are not updated as are the regs and the aip doc's... A lesson should have been learnt here, sure you know the regs, but can you interperate through them to find what you have been asked.
I think the problem with the "Y" gen is the why should I, why am I not right, why worry, why work...

I to think that you were wrong in your answer based on the reg as you stated, but hey, I dont work for casa, caa. I can only guess that you are new to aviation, you will see over the next mountain of exams that the regulators of such exams get them wrong- alot, helo asl...

The thing that you need to remember is that if you have an issue with the result, keep the facts straight and query it, if you are right and they have made a mistake then you should see a better result. If you get no change, then you have possibly overlooked what they were trying to ask.

Knowing the regs and a bit of common sence will pay off, you cant learn common sence tho.

As for the original question, after casa, back to rebook the exam and get on with it... I do agree to a certain extent, a bit of hardening up is required as in the time that it took you to write the things on here, you could have done some more study. This is also a little lesson of life my friend, moanin does not do much.

[the wizard of auz]

Hardly worth studying if the right answer is not recognized as correct.
It just does not make sense. :ok:

[rodmiller]

the dog must be on a moisture absorbent mat and restrained as near to the owner as possible.

[rodmiller]

such a generalization

[Kelly Slater]

You used to be able to ask for either a remark or a critique of an exam but had to pay for either. If the critique option is still available, CASA would have to provide you with the answers you got wrong, the correct answer and why the answer they chose is better than yours. I doubt the critique is still available but if it is, you will then have their answer and explanation in writing, giving you a much better chance of disputing it.

I would pretty much guarantee that you got at least one other answer incorect by making a stupid mistake, the easiest way to pass exams is to eliminate stupid mistakes.

[the wizard of auz]

critique is no longer available. you get a KDR (Knowledge deficiency report) and it is next to useless. Gives you a general idea of what area the question may have been in.
The remark is also a waste of time, as all they do is reaffirm the answers from the database. If they are wrong in the database, they will still show up as wrong in the remark.

[404 Titan]

I have always found communicating my problem with my local (in this case Federal) member or the relevant Minister works wonders when trying to deal with incompetent and obstructive public servants. They may not be answerable to you and me but they sure as hell are answerable to the Minister.:ok:

[Integro]

Thanks again for the input.

You are correct that I could have done some study rather than post on here or read what others have had to say. However I thought the reason for PPRuNe was for pilots or pilots to be to keep in the loop and maybe even help each other out (maybe helping others is just something that generation Y is into). I guess since life has been so easy for generation Y they don't feel the need to stomp on others to get to where they want to go. I'm not actually part of that generation but it seems the older generation here just wants to bag people, tell them how hard it was in their day and expect you to make life as hard for yourself as it was for them?!

Any way if this thread helps one person to get that answer right that may have gotten it wrong without reading it then it was worth while. I'm all for helping others in their career and one of those steps would be the CPL and ATPL exams.

Just to note on my particular case and how it's going. CASA have now said that I was CORRECT in my interpretation. However in the future you will still be expected to give the answer they deemed to be correct in the first place, so let the dog sit in the plane in the exam but don't do it in real life or you'll cop the 25 penalty units!

[ace4bar's girlfriend]

Sooo.............

Is it a pass?

[j3pipercub]

Well done

j3