IS the Big Airline Job the only option?

[keith lester]

Dear Sir/Madam,
I am a new to this so please forgive my ignorance (of which there may be planty of)
I will try to make this simple
I want to earn a sustainable living from flying
I do not care if i have passengers called humans or passengers called animals or boxes.
I would be so happy to fly and earn an income sufficient to pay back training costs and live somewhere in Europe and possibly enjoy life. I am currently a bar manger in a quiet, seaside town, wasting my life away.
I have read many threads here and the goal seems to be a Pilot of a big airline, for this you need an ATPL MCC and a Type rating. Estimated costs of 150k euro .
I would like someone to advise me why I should not aim to train for a regional airline job or for cargo? using twin turbo props etc.
I see that in Ireland the Cargo airline is looking for 500 + hrs in an ATR there are other examples.
"Air contractors" will pay 40,000 for F.O. basic training costs for what I have outlined seem to be €30,000. ( CPL ; MULTI; IR). get a Flight Instructer rating for hour builing.
I might of missed out on some big point, but that is exactly why I am posting this question/thread
P.s. I am 29 and really hope that it is not too late for a career in this profession!
Yours sincerely
Keith Mc Donogh
Kilkee Co Clare

[Mikehotel152]

Hi Keith,

I don't think you're too old and now is probably as bad a time as any to start training :}. It takes about 2 years to get your licence and that licence is the basic licence for use in all types of commercial aviation, so you don't have to decide whether to fly big or small aircraft, people or cargo, for quite some time yet.

I strongly suggest you take a look at the sticky thread at the top of the Professional Pilot Training section of this website as it will give you all the information you could possibly want. It'll only take you a month to read but you'll find answers to all your questions! ;)

Click here (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/131649-archive-reference-threads-posting-guidelines-read-before-you-post-question.html)

MH152

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Keith

MikeHotel is bob on, you train for your frozen ATPL, then mate you're in the hat for ANY job out there, as is everyone else I'm afraid! And any job you can get, TP, jet, cargo, pax, is a real bonus even in the good times which obviously we are a way away from yet.

Yes, airlines require a type rating, but generally they do these as part of your airline training, as opposed to doing it with a seperate organisation off your own back, and they will usually this day and age charge you in some form or other for the rating. Some pay you back over a few years, others don't.

Even in the TP world this can be true.

However airline flying per se is by no means the only type of flying out there, but it's the one realistic option to obtain a return on your investment and a decent salary to live.

Good luck wth it.

[corsair]

Keith, 30k? forget it. Double that for a start to get the basics. Instructor rating another 8 to 9K. Air Contractors, forget them, currently overstocked with FOs, I believe, and in any case always difficult to get in because pilot turnover is low. Also Air Contractors is in fact an airline (cargo) job and you will need an MCC and an ATPL. Just because they fly turoprops or are a regional doesn't mean a you don't need all the boxes ticked. That is the 'big point' you missed out on.

Age no problem. Job market; big problem. Your motivation is excellent though:I would be so happy to fly and earn an income sufficient to pay back training costs and live somewhere in Europe and possibly enjoy life
Wouldn't we all. That's the real problem. The reason the airline job is desirable is because that's where most of the jobs are and the money and the possibilty to enjoy life. The fun jobs don't pay well, are insecure and sometimes risky. I know, I have one. What's more they really don't pay back your training costs. But even they are scarce and as often as not recruited by word of mouth or by reputation.

The main source of jobs lately is Ryanair, love them or loathe them. Add another 30k to pay for their type rating. Aer Arann charge for the type rating too.

So we're back to 100k again.

To summarise, yes the big airline job is not the only option. But small airlines require the same qualifications, same for cargo and corporate flying. Other jobs, like instructing, charter, air taxi, skydiving etc are hard to get, pay badly and are recognised as transition jobs. Training is always more expensive than you think and you are not guaranteed a job at the end of it.

But if you really want to do it, go for it. Anything is better than bar manager. But I warn you, you could end up back in the bar. I for one am looking for some kind of part time work to supplement my income or lack of it at the moment.

[potkettleblack]

Whilst there is nothing more than I would like to do than to roll up my sleeves and do some exciting flying I would echo the sentiments above on the airline business.

I fly the 320. With this rating I can fly the 318 through to 321. To go onto the 330/340 its a short course (CCQ) spanning no more than a couple of weeks and costing a fraction of the 30k that FR would charge you for a 737 rating should you be in the unfortunate position of having to self fund. What this means is that I have transferability which means a lot in the current market climate. By working for an airline with lots and lots of pilots I get a degree of roster stability and hardly any significant changes occur. I don't mind being just a number as it gives me a degree of anonymity when negotiating with crewing or when standing my ground and saying no. You wouldn't get this in a very small operation where personalities play a big part. My annual leave is fixed so I can go ahead and book holidays without the worry of losing my money. I can also avail of staff travel and interline tickets. I am always paid on time - you would be surprised how many companies don't. I am paid well for what I do and can afford some of lifes luxuries without having to scrimp and save.

We have a very high standard of training and are well respected across the industry. Some of our captains have taken early retirement over the years and been involved in training all across the world which means there is a good network of contacts available should it all turn to custard.

At this stage of your career you might think that things like rosters are irrelevant but I can assure you that in a very short time once you start in this industry you will find them very important. By all means take whatever job you can but always have an end goal in mind of where you want your career to end up. It is very easy to stay to long in a dead end job that reduces your marketability. Its no different to any other walk of life. Good luck.

[keith lester]

Thank you all again for indepth opinions and hard facts!
This is really a fantastic resource.
I really appreciate the replys given, especially so in that they were not condescending in any way, often you get people on forums that want others to feel inferior to them, not so here.
Thank you all again, I am better off now because of this forum

[corsair]

often you get people on forums that want others to feel inferior to them, not so here

:}Oh there are plenty like that here too. Have you visited Jetblast lately:eek:

Oh and whatever you do avoid the Military forum and Rumours and News.:oh:

[INNflight]

Excellent replies give already.

Estimated costs of 150k euro

This only applies if you want to attend the most fancy integrated school out there and probably pay for your own type rating too.

Go the modular route and you will be fine with half of that, easily!!

[CharlieLima]

better off goin surfin in Lahinch and down to Spanish Point for a pint and a bit of craic, although your probably sick of seeing pints :D I miss the guinness.

I'm sort of in the same boat as yourself Keith, except im in asia trying to sell up to fund the costs of training, Physics and maths seem to be important would be a good idea to brush up on them I think. America seems to be cheapest for gettin the CPL MEIR and fATPL although i believe there is a bit of conversion to do etc. If you go modular there in a small family tun place ye might well get a very good deal, get your skype goin and do a bit of callin to flyin schools in the states tell them your budjet and what ye want to achieve, ye never know!

As for jobs in the end, there is a few heads that seem to go off to africa and ends of the world to get any sort of flying in even with crap pay, if your willin to do pretty much anything then i reckon youll get something.

I think Ive made up me mind to go for it meself but I'm going to study first.

[pilotmike]

Keith

From what I can see, you might have wrongly believed that there are two different licences, one costing €30,000 for smaller turbo-prop aircraft, and another costing €150,000 for jet airliners.

Simply, there is just 1 licence, a CPL / IR, which also requires you to hold a MCC to be of any use. There are 2 different ways of obtaining the CPL / IR, Integrated which can cost in excess of €90,000 when all costs are included, or Modular, which can be achieved for as little as €40,000.

Then the MCC can be done for as little as €1,800 or a full motion 737 sim might put the course cost up to nearer €4,000. Then you might find an employer who will pay for your Type Rating, or you might have to fund this yourself, costing another €30,000.

So you can see, the cheapest route is around €40,000, and the most expensive costs nearer to €140,000 - but they both give the same licence.

And believe me, the sums it is possible to spend is almost limitless. I know of someone who went integrated, then paid for a 737 Type Rating, and then went on to pay a further 20,000$US or more for 'line training' hours in Morocco. And as far as I know, he still hasn't found a job, even after pissing away over £150,000 chasing his dream.

However, others have managed to find gainful employment for much more modest sums. Whichever way, it is not a cheap career option, but the rewards can be worthwhile so long as you go in with your eyes open, and control your costs.

Good luck!