BAW287, just woke up London!

[HeathrowAirport]

Hi Guys, Just noticed BAW287 departed almost 12 hours late..
any reason for its lateness? Big NA Fine i bet for that aswell?
Sat 29 November 2008

14:25 BA287
SAN FRANCISCO
TAXIED 0117

[dontpressthat]

Probobly explains the rumble that had me peeking out the window about 15mins ago.. about 2nm n/e of BNN.

DPT

[Skipness One Echo]

NA as in noise abatement? I actually thought Heathrow had a curfew between 0000-0400 so shows what I know.....
Hope the punters weren't on board all that time !

[Gulf4uk]

HI This likely to be your frame noise what noise only nimbys notice
aircraft noise ?

G-BNLG BAW287 2008-11-30 01:28:34. B747-436 United Kingdom British Airways

Tony

[Rainboe]

Have I got a comprehension problem or is that total garbled nonsense?

[Skipness One Echo]

First time an ACARS message makes easier reading than a narrative (!). Tony, let's put your bedroom under the numbers and put a 744 in the circuit at 1AM and see you try and get up in time for work.....

[haughtney1]

Lived in Acton, and Isleworth for a number of years...never had a problem with aircraft noise outta LHR, even though (particularly Isleworth) had many many airframes overhead during the course of the day.
Simple fix with aircraft noise, move, adapt, or get used to it :D

[Skipness One Echo]

had many many airframes overhead during the course of the day.
Simple fix with aircraft noise, move, adapt, or get used to it

Try it at 1AM onwards and see if you're still clapping like a special person then mate !

There's a specific issue in London where vast swathes of the city would not be able to sleep if 24 / 7 heavies were thundering off Heathrow. My other half insists on sleeping with the window open and I always hear the first heavies of the day powering into the base leg turn at 04:30 when they're on Westerlies. It's very loud even in the East End when the rest of the city is quiet.
I am a Heathrow supporter, but get real if you think anyone would tolerate that level of noise in the middle of the night as the norm. It's inhumane.

[Gulf4uk]

Yes it must effect people I Admit that but I don't seem to notice these
days day or night . Rare I get more than 2 Hours sleep because of pain
and pill popping every 2 hours or so next dose . But those that do need
it getting woken up in the small Hours is no Joke you just lie there
looking at the clock waiting for 6AM to click round you never get to
sleep again.

Tony

[LHR27C]

Big NA Fine i bet for that aswell?

Nope, BA have a certain quota of night slots they can use each year.

[Cloud Bunny]

Sorry not a spotter, but since when have British Airways been known as BAW?? What does the 'w' stand for?

[Eddie_Crane]

since when have British Airways been known as BAW?? IATA-Code:BA
ICAO-Code:BAW
Prefix-Code:125
Airline:British Airways
Country:United Kingdom
Callsign:Speedbird

[haughtney1]

Try it at 1AM onwards and see if you're still clapping like a special person then mate !

Classic, someone got out on the wrong side of the bed :}

Like I said, I've never had an issue, my problem is with you lot who moan about a bit of noise:ugh: it was just ONE aircraft wasn't it? If so..a bit of perspective please, a bus exhaust creates more Decibels as it drives past at 1am, as does a Police or Ambulance siren:D

[Skipness One Echo]

Nope, BA have a certain quota of night slots they can use each year

Ahh that's interesting. So the airport is not available for general use in the wee hours but late departures are OK as long as they meet the quota? That can't be right....that's common sense and we're not having any of that in Brown's Britain !

Haughtney1 I don't have an issue with it, my point is that you saying Simple fix with aircraft noise, move, adapt, or get used to it misses the point that at Heathrow, it's about to get a lot noisier for a lot of people as mixed mode looks likely to end and a new runway may be built. Now I agree with the new runway and more capacity but my heart goes out to those who have known some peace all their lives near Heathrow when they change runways, and that little peace is to be taken. Remember that a lot of people who live near Heathrow have neither the disposable income of some if us nor the confidence to leave a tightly nit immigrant community in some cases.

It's not as simple as you paint it.

[Human Factor]

Remember that a lot of people who live near Heathrow have neither the disposable income of some if us nor the confidence to leave a tightly nit immigrant community in some cases.

The point being in fact that they made a choice to live there, whether it was due to there being large numbers of a particular community there or for financial reasons. There are cheaper places to live in the UK than Hounslow (believe it or not). While I don't disagree with their argument about further expansion, I don't believe they have any right whatsoever to complain about the current situation regarding night flights and noise quotas. Those rules have been in force for many many years. I would imagine for longer than many of the residents have been in situ.

[HeathrowAirport]

I don't mind the noise, its just a find that a bit harsh on Hounslow at a time when everyone is expecting no noise. If it was on westerlies, i could understand as it wouldn't blast over London. But Heathrow is on easterlies.. and to add the 747 on a heavy departure would have made a racket at that time of night.

Anyone know why it was that late?

[drivez]

One night? What's the big deal?
RAF jets buzz around my end once or twice a year. Not a big deal. Feel sorry for the people who have the heavies coming from America and other places though in the morning.

[LHR27C]

I'm not sure why people think it is so rare for aircraft to depart LHR after midnight. It happens quite often when they are delayed for technical reasons or whatever. For example, a quick glance over last week's logs:

Nov 27th
VS350 A343 departed 0027
BG016 A310 departed 0030

Nov 26th
VS651 A346 departed 0050

Nov 25th
SK534 MD82 departed 0011
BD8312 B752 departed 0220

Nov 24th
SK534 MD82 departed 0008

Nov 23rd
VS300 A346 departed 0018

[Rampvan]

BA have a certain quota of night slots they can use each year

This is quite correct, however if an airline needed to use one of these night quota flights unexpectedly as BA seemed to have done last night then it would be only a case of delaying one of the their early morning arrivals to get back into line with the quota

it's about to get a lot noisier for a lot of people as mixed mode looks likely to end and a new runway may be built. Now I agree with the new runway and more capacity but my heart goes out to those who have known some peace all their lives near Heathrow when they change runways,

Having lived very near to LHR from birth to around 30 years of age I can tell you hot summer days in the 70's when they were on 10's (Tridents,1-11's, DC-9's etc) were very noisy and we never knew any peace as there was no runway change on Easteries. :ugh:Funny thing was no body ever complained down our road about the noise!! it seems only in recent years that this NIMBY culture has reared is head, whether or not its down to new arrivals into the area who after having bought a property near a huge international airport have now decided its a tad noisy or not I'm not willing to speculate :rolleyes:

[trident3A]

God the tridents used make a racket didn't they?

[Skipness One Echo]

I agree that noise levels are not what they were back in the 70s but then neither is homophobia, bigotry and sexism, and I still think it's worth flagging them as not all that great whenever I come across 'em either. I live between the flight paths of TWO of Londons major airports and love watching 747s diving into the left base turn for the Westerlies as a 146 climbs out of City.

However the closer you get to Heathrow, towards Richmond, Hammersmith etc the more it becomes just a pain. It ruins parts of what ought to be a beautiful city.

Sad thing is I consider the VC10 the "realest" aircraft still flying because of those 4 Rolls Royce Conway engines with the added bonus of real smoke.

btw Surely there's no such thing as a Trident 3A?

IT went 1C / 1E / 2 / 3B (!)

[Flightman]

To go back to the OP, there are many noise abatement procedures in place at LHR, not just fines for breaking the noise limits.

Those limits vary depending on the time of day.

Between 0700 -2300 it's 94dBA.
2330-0600 it's 87dBA.
And the intervening periods 23:00-2330 and 0600-0700 it's 89dBA

Night Quota has nothing to do with the noise limits. During the periods between the clock change, called a season, LHR has a quota of movements
( and overall QC points ) that it cannot break. BA, as an airline with historic night movement has a portion of this quota. This flight would have used 1 movement and 4QC points from BA's allocation for the Winter season.

Hope that helps.

[Trinity 09L]

May be with mixed mode they will consider using 09L for departures which will give us all a break at 6miles out when the "dunlops are dropping" and more power is on, as the majority of arrivals use 09L.
I have no complaints about noise at any time, and we get more outbounds out of hours than Hounslow. Lived in Staines since '73 then moved here - noise = business = income = tax for Govt:eek:

[WHBM]

Just to add that, as covered above (but contrary to certain beliefs) Heathrow is a 24-hour operation airport. But there are restrictions on the number of "night" (defined as 2330-0600) movements.

Time was when these used to be taken by night freight flights in the small hours and some other deep night passenger schedules. But over time operators have tended to concentrate their usage on early morning long-haul passenger arrivals, finding this is their best usage of them.

On average there are about 14 movements per night, which typically (if there is a typical night) is probably made up of one delayed departure and, later in the night, 13 long-haul arrivals, spread over about 0430-0600. Inbounds from Hong Kong tend to be the first in. Actually it's unusual to actually have a touchdown at 0559 as that is "wasting" a slot which could be avoided by arriving a minute later.

By about 0545, if there have been stronger than expected tailwinds across the Atlantic (or lighter than expected across Asia) the stacks around Heathrow can be quite full with those waiting for the end of the restricted period. I am often getting up around this time and our house is about 10 nm from the Lambourne hold, so a look out of the window is a good weather guide in the dark for if it's CAVOK or not, seeing the parade of lights going round.

Not always realised is that immediately after the restrictions finish, for one hour, Heathrow's normal runway alternation between arrivals and departures is not used, and both runways are fully used for arrivals, with parallel approaches. This is because there is not much traffic departing before about 0645, but there are a lot of inbounds.

There is a certain skill in scheduling all this, and BA for example, who have the largest allocation of night slots, will know what the averages are for them having delayed departures which need to use a night slot. They will adjust their inbound arrivals for what they find is the most efficient usage of what remains for them.

If there is an exceptionally severe delay at Heathrow in the evening the Department for Transport can authorise that the limits are suspended, although they are very reluctant to do so.

Incidentally, the "24-hour" aspect applies to aircraft operations. Now, trying to get bags loaded/unloaded, etc, or a cup of coffee in the terminal, at 0200 is another matter altogether.

[DILLIGAFF]

I lived in Cranford (just off the eastern end of 27R) from 1962 to 1976 in a road that was nicknamed 'Jet Alley' by the locals. In those days we had BAC1-11s, Tridents and VC10's arriving and departing, no one really noticed them. When Concorde diverted in after Farnborough Airshow in 1970 (I think) we had the BBC knocking on our door with a camera crew saying "Wasn't Concorde noisy".They could not find anybody who had even noticed it. Mind you I made my Dad drive me up to the northside so I could see it. I agree with some of the other posters that these moaners chose to move to the area knowing there was a huge international airport there, common sense would have told them it would be a noisy area so they have no right to complain about it. Although on a smaller scale I remember reading a few years ago about a towny that moved to the country and complained to the council that the local farmers cockerell was waking him up every morning at 5 o'clock by crowing.I think the council served a noise pollution notice on the farmer and told him to make it crow quieter. Perhaps there is no such thing as common sense these days.
D

[Doobs]

Laarburch late 80s with 4 Tonkers taking off for circuits near on everynight. Now thats what I call loud but you get used to it !

[Gonzo]

WHBM,

Good overview. It reminds me of a night shift on the last day of the month; I was supervising. The airfield manager had informed me that due to some poor weather earlier in the month, nobody had any night quota slots left to use on late departures, so we had to prevent any departures after 2330 that night.

However, as just half an hour later was a new month (0001 on the 1st), that meant all the airlines had a full quota again, and so we could allow departures.

I felt quite sorry for all those around LL that night who went to sleep in the peace and quiet of 2330-0000, thinking all activity had stopped for the night, and were then woken up by a series of departures!:}

[ExRAFRadar]

Living in Whitton we get the noise right over our house if they switch to 09 departures.

I have no problem with the night departures but i can see how it would annoy some. My missus didnt realize we were moving next to Heathrow but she never moans. Then again a bomb going off next to her would not wake her.

A more constructive move would be to get the airlines to move to the more modern jets, unlikely to happen quickly I know, as it really is the older 747's that make the loudest noise. I think we all know the roar of a 747 going over but the 'modern' Aircraft just seem to whine. The 380 is quiet considering what weight it is hauling skyward.

Personally I am just gutted we moved there too late to see/hear Concorde.

As an aside I find the noise of the Police helo hovering over some Feltham chav estate all night much more annoying.

[HeathrowAirport]

I have to add to that, UKP251 is so annoying. Were i live being near Peckham. All i can hear is UKP251 :(

[WW1018]

Wait till you hear a VC-10 Power over your house, Then you'll know what noise is ;)

[Midland 331]

>Living in Whitton we get the noise right over our house if they switch to 09 departures.

Indeed. I used to stay at "The Winning Post" which was smack under one of the SID tracks, and reckon that Whitton suffers more than any other area, especially when all the late-evening heavies are launching. At least traffic heading east, north, and west does an early turn to miss Beautiful Downtown Hounslow, if I recall correctly. The early right turn off 09R takes departures right over residential areas in the early (loud and low) stages.

r

[Skipness One Echo]

The early right off 09R is incredibly impressive when it's a heavy departure but by God they're noisy (!)

[Midland 331]

>The early right off 09R is incredibly impressive when it's a heavy departure but by God they're noisy (!)

Indeed. Try being in a timber-framed Travelodge-type building. Some resonance! It was always interesting to note the later generation being precisely on the same track, whilst "steam and clockwork" types showed some slight variation, but enough to give variation to the noise level.

It always seemed a bit unfair to the residents below this climb-out track, that the heaviest and noisiest traffic was also some of the latest to depart.

Occasionally, someone comes on the BBC to rant about Heathrow being noisier than ever. I recall staying at "The Heston Hilton" BA training centre circa 1982, and being woken by Tridents, 1-11s, and other noisy types from early morning. I stayed in the area recently, and heard very little.

[747-436]

Good overview. It reminds me of a night shift on the last day of the month; I was supervising. The airfield manager had informed me that due to some poor weather earlier in the month, nobody had any night quota slots left to use on late departures, so we had to prevent any departures after 2330 that night.

However, as just half an hour later was a new month (0001 on the 1st), that meant all the airlines had a full quota again, and so we could allow departures


I have had similar when in my previous job at LHR, think it was a saturday night trying to get a late departure away and called the airfield ops manager and they said it couldn't go just yet and had to wait until 0001 as it went in to a new week!

One silly thing about the noise rules was with a late running arrival and it was hammering down the approach to land before 2330, however if it didn't it would have had to go around so would have actually made a lot more noise thundering over London on the way to Stansted rather than landing a minute later!!

[Skipness One Echo]

Are they not just allowed to land late and pay extra?

[HeathrowAirport]

4th December 2008 13:18

I had Concorde come over my house for 10 Years, i think that did enougth damage :P haha!