Based Bypass Pay

[preset]

Should based F/Os who decline to accept a command slot in HKG get bypass pay ? :hmm: In fact should <any> F/O who declines a command slot get bypass pay ?

[tiger321]

NO and NO.

[Kurtis Chukle Willis]

AHH! But they do, this is the problem.........:mad:

[I'mbatman]

If you decline a course than no you should not, but if you are next in line and are willing to take an upgrade no matter if it is in HK or a base I believe you should.

[hongkongpilot]

Yes and may for non HKG based FO ! (Ask PW !)

[sisyphos]

batman : do you mean we should be "forced" to accept an upgrade at ANY base ??

[Arfur Dent]

Nobody's forcing anyone but if you're offered a Command and refuse (ie because you want to stay on a base) you shouldn't expect (or get) bypass pay.
Neither should you unless you're the appropriate CAT to start a Command course.

[stillalbatross]

Doesn't it get a little complicated with regards to where the base is, whether you can actually work there etc. Everyone is assuming a HKG base would always come up first.

With ASL and everything else any scraps we get of seniority working should be taken and this is one. If your command comes up and it isn't where you want to live then you should get bypass pay.

But we shouldn't ever get bypass pay. The AOA tells me there are freighter commands available for all (especially until recently on the classic) so if you want one, a freighter command makes the most financial sense. The 80K you lose in housing and benefits is easily covered by the 3 K a month yearly increase in pay especially when you go across as a pax command which would need to be on year 71 of the pax command pay scale.

[broadband circuit]

Jagman1,

take a quick look back at some of the people who've been cat B'd over the last 8 years. Quite clearly the vast majority of those decisions by the star chamber were purely political. Intimidation is the only word to describe it. So, in a small way, bypass pay provides some minor compensation to those victims.

Regarding the slightly more difficult question of pilots who've failed command course, and are awaiting re-assessment, some (but not all) have been subject to some strange egos in the C&T department. We all know that it's a big HILL to climb to achieve you 4BARS. (a couple of big hints in there!) Where do you propose that we draw the line?

[I'mbatman]

Sisyphos,

I was not implying anyone should be 'forced' to upgrade.....far from it.....i was implying a situation such as guys that are Cat A and are now being held up due to the recent OASIS direct entry captains. I believe those guys that are having their classes delayed should get bypass pay. That is all.

[arse]

FOs who choose to delay their command to stay on the base SHOULD NOT receive bypass pay.

I am pretty sure that there are many among us who would have taken that option had they known BPP would be paid. For some it may be about the glory of the command, but for many it is just a pay check to pay for a lifestyle. Left or right seat is irrelevant.

By choice; right seat, less responsibility, preferred base, better life style, left seat pay. Who dreams this stuff up!

[tiger321]

arse,

I couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't give a rats about 3 bars or 4 if I am on the same money. Most people would take the no responsibilty for same pay option I think.

Crazy, crazy situation at the moment.

I have no problem with blokes who have failed command attempt one getting bypass pay during their year of re-assesment. If it takes longer - well we can talk about that. BUT........getting BPP because you turned down HKG pax command to stay on your base!! WTF.

[Liam Gallagher]

"Should based F/Os who decline to accept a command slot in HKG get bypass pay ? In fact should <any> F/O who declines a command slot get bypass pay"

Yes.... because that's what in the contract. If you want to negotiate a change...I'm sure Nick's door is always open to a change in the BPP clause.

As for Jagman1's suggestion....

"Neither should you unless you're the appropriate CAT to start a Command course"

Do be sure to mention that well thought out idea to the SO on your next sector:ugh::rolleyes:

[Goonybird]

"FOs who choose to delay their command to stay on the base SHOULD NOT receive bypass pay." -arse

Arse, have you considered that these F/O's have been awarded a command slot on a base but have to wait to use their joker because of a type change? Then there are those that are bidding for but not receiving commands on a base, and those that have had the Oasis retreads jump in front of them for a freighter command. Given these senarios do you still feel they don't deserve bypass pay? Have they "refused" a command or are they simply unable to secure one.
Due to family and/or other reasons returning to Hong Kong indefinitely is simply not an option for many people.

[preset]

If people choose to refuse a command (in seniority if you can call, what we have now, that :\) for whatever reason I believe they should not get BPP. Think about it, if there were no bases & a pilot's number came up but declined the course because his roster may not be as good (say for commuting) or some other reason should he get the money ? Surely the pilot must take responsibility for his own decision & circumstances. I was under the impression BPP was for those pilots who are disadvantaged by CX <not> themselves. Pls don't read this as not having sympathy for those pilots who may be in less than ideal circumstances but isn't this the life we choose, which airline to work for, which country to live in or who you marry ? You normally can't have it both ways but in this airline it appears you can :ugh:

[anotherbusdriver]

What would happen if a Captain in HK bids for a slot on a base as an F/O because they want a base and they are not senior enough yet for the Command slots there?

Would they still receive BPP awaiting their Command on the base??

Sounds like a great option!

[Harbour Dweller]

What would happen if a Captain in HK bids for a slot on a base as an F/O because they want a base and they are not senior enough yet for the Command slots there?

Some Captains have already been up to the 3rd floor to discuss this very option.

Management was shocked (& appalled) to hear that CX Captains would wish to return to being an FO.

The answer was a flat NO.. sorry cannot. Once a CX Captain always a CX Captain.

[Goonybird]

I think if someone is offered a command in their base area and refuse it they're no longer eligible for BPP. ie If a LAX based pilot is awarded a command in LAX and refuses it, he is no longer eligible for BPP.

[The Messiah]

The answer was a flat NO.. sorry cannot. Once a CX Captain always a CX Captain.
Not so. There was a recent case of exactly that. The Captain concerned was told he had to resign from CX and then rejoin as a DEFO on COS'99 on the base.:mad:

[Harbour Dweller]

Not so. There was a recent case of exactly that. The Captain concerned was told he had to resign from CX and then rejoin as a DEFO on COS'99 on the base.

Correct Messiah.

To clarify my post, I was referring too a simple case of downgrading from Captain to FO position keeping ones seniority, COS & entitlements exactly the same as currently on.

To this request the company will say NO.. cannot.

[Arfur Dent]

Liam
Wasn't really thinking about SO's as the question was about Commands. I take your implied point though!

[Jumbo93]

Just had a look through my COS. I read that the company should be paying bypass pay for ALL Captains retained beyond normal retirement age. We should be receiving bypass pay for all the extensions on the freighter!!!!

This should not be a battle between HKG and Based. It should be a discussion of how the company is not complying with our contract!!!

[viking avenger]

This has been addressed. Check the AOA website MEMBERS section for with incoming and outgoing correspondence.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

All AOA members need to log on to the AOA website, go to the inwards correspondence and read the DFO's reply dated 12/11/08 about SO bypass pay and why he won't pay it. According to him the COS hasn't kept pace with "custom and practice". Apparently this gives him carte blanche to disregard it....

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Apparently this gives him carte blanche to disregard it....


Don't tell me..let me guess:

The AOA is completely happy with this explanation and won't be doing ANYTHING further!!:D Way to go AOA..!!

100% Non-AOA:ok:

[NoseGear]

Showing your complete lack of intelligence there then...AOA members will know whats in the pipeline....too bad you cant take your head out of your ass to see...:rolleyes::D

[ACMS]

AD POSS............more to the point what are YOU doing about it? Been in to see NR and expressed your point yet?

[Ex Douglas Driver]

The AOA is completely happy with this explanation and won't be doing ANYTHING further!! Way to go AOA..!!

As I'm sure you're well aware, the AOA is not a singular entity, it's us, the pilot body i.e. the majority of the people that you work with (assuming you do actually work for CX).

Tell you what, how about you write to (or visit) both the DFO and the HKAOA (as a non member) stating your opinon on the issues faced by the pilot group and provide suggestions on how to fix them. Report back on who gives you the best reception......

[arse]

Goonybird

Thanks for pointing out the grey areas, between the black and white. By that I mean there is always more to an issue than the obvious black and white, which in this case is that if an FO refuses a command, then there should be no BPP. However, to address your grey areas (IMHO):


Failed command once? Sorry NO BPP! Command pay is for Commanders! I know there are guys who seem to miss out unfairly, but I do not believe there are as many as is suggested!
FO awarded command, but waiting for a joker? YES BPP! He/she hasn't "refused" it, they are simply waiting in turn.
Bidding for, but not received? NO BPP!
Refused a command, for any reason? NO BPP!
Not willing to return to Hong Kong due to family reasons? Sorry, NO BPP! There are lots of people with difficult home situations. CX is no a welfare organisation!


Cheers for listening.