Airline Training Partnership (Merged)

[Captain Punishment]

Hello guys has anyone actually completed the course yet and actually got employment with easyJet or one of the middle east carriers that have been promised to them?

It looks a very interesting course if it all comes off - But the proof is in the pudding!

Any thoughts or first hand experiences would be of great help, I think many people are watching this course to see if it delivers what it promises. If it does, it will be a little gold mine and I would certainly consider doing it.

Look forward to hearing your views.

[MIKECR]

I hope the poor boys and girls sitting in the Ezy hold pool get placed long before anyone from the ATP scheme.

[IrishJetdriver]

Unless you have a rock solid, absolutely guaranteed, earthquake, bomb and fireproof job guarantee then don't touch it with a barge pole.

There are over 800 newly available fully qualified and highly experienced pilots on the market and you have no chance whatsoever of getting a job ahead of them.

Do something better with the money. Please.

[Captain Punishment]

It all seems a little quiet out there on this subject, I was hoping that there would be some people with first hand experience or know of somebody that is doing or has completed the course.

They are still advertising heavily and I would have thought that the first batch of students would have been through the mill by now for us to see the end result and find out if it really does what it says on the tin??

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

I believe it's exactly the opposite, in terms of being up to scratch, than ATP were suggesting. Wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, there's no job with easyJet at the end of it, and it's far far too costly.

WBV

[QAFPS]

I think you should go for it. The more people we get paying to fly the line, the more money easyJet gets and the more money available for next year's pay rise for the guys that (shock horror) actually get paid to fly easyJet's aircraft. I have only heard good things about the ATP guys on line...some say that they are the children of Bader himself. The CTC cadets are by comparison nothing but wannabes with dreams higher than their station.





:ugh:

[Screwballs]

Is this a modular or integrated course?











take a step back...

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Even CTC Cadets who have been flying the line for Ezy for the last 6 months are being released to the job centre.

What chance does anyone have from this ATP scheme who are doing type rating groundschool in a day?? Especially with the reputation they are receiving.

Forget it!

[Captain Punishment]

There is a lot of talk about not getting into EZY after the course, aparently the view on this has changed and there will be NO job offer with them.

The question I originally posted was any job with ATP's partner airlines Etihad / Air Arabia. I heard from a mate that he had heard that the first batch of students went or were going to Air Arabia in the first week of Sept. I just wanted to find out the outcome etc.

Does anybody have any further news regarding this please?

[Troy McClure]

According to an Easyjet TRE, a lot of these ATP guys are failing their type ratings. ATP only care about the money, and if they do any form of selection (other than cashing the cheque), their tests are far too easy. There's a misconception out there that you can 'buy' a type rating. If only it were that easy....

[redsnail]

According to BALPA, easyJet will not be entering into an agreement like the ATP scheme again for the foreseeable future.

[EpsilonVaz]

Just to be clear, there was never any job offer with ezy from ATP, nor any sort of "hint" of a job with ezy, it was made clear to the ATP cadets that they are going to receive a TR and line training by ezy only. After that, they are free to apply to ezy the normal way, just like everyone else.

And Captain Punishment, you are correct, as far as I know, the first batch who have just finished their line training have gone to one of ATP's partner airlines, Air Arabia.

Troy McClure, as far as I know, only one person has failed their TR, but after some extra sim sessions, they passed their LST.

[Captain Punishment]

If the students are failing type ratings does this not reflect badly on the easyJet TRI's as they are supposedly conducting the TR?

I think that this is diversing somewhat as all I need is info on the job prospects at the end, do they deliver or not.

I have no issue with the type rating as I am under no illusion that it will be hard work, but I will prepare well before hand and have performed well in all courses that I have done. I also have a strong raw data IFR background so am hoping that I should be fine.

The only real concern is that they deliver their claims of a job with 'one of their several airline partners'

I have a friend who is cabin crew for EZY and from what he says the TC's have not got a problem with the quality of the students coming through the ATP scheme, although maybe 2 or 3 were below par, but this would be expected out of 30 or so candidates. They may have got the type rating but line training is another thing with real pressure and tight time constraints etc so some may not have the spare capacity to deal with it all.

[EpsilonVaz]

Captain Punishment: Yes, it seems ATP are living up to their promises.

Superpilot: Sales pitch or not, no one I have met on the course is under the impression that they will be staying with ezy. Everyone expects to go to Air Arabia, and the first batch have already gone.

So, to answer some things about the ATP scheme, mostly, what do I think of it all? ATP have been more than accommodating, and extremely helpful with any issues that have arisen, and for people who have needed extra training, it was not made an issue. Yes ATP is a business, but they don't come across as "money grabbers" at all.

I understand that the scheme is contraversial, however considering the current climate, and most importantly, what you feel is best for you, ATP is definately something to consider.

With everything of course, there is risk. So just like you did when you undertook fight training for the first time, and had made the decision to go all the way, you need to look at this scheme, assess the risk to you, and if you can survive if it goes tits up.

(No, I don't work for ATP)

[Captain Punishment]

EpsilonVaz: On what grounds do you make these comments? You certainly claim to know a hell of a lot about the scheme along with what seems to be a cracking sales pitch for them - But you say that you do not work for them?!

What is your position and how do you know all this?

You are apart from me, the only other person as far as I can see that has anything positive to say about ATP.

Have all students that have passed through ATP and completed line training got jobs with Air Arabia? I would of thought that they would have been shouting this from the roof tops as this is the strongest selling point of their product in the current climate - Which would set them apart from the eaglejet's of this world!

Without the job at the end, it is just a more expensive eaglejet with another failing string of promises.


Superpilot: My cc friend was def talking about ATP not CTC ATP as he even said that there was a little aprehension about the quality of the students that would come through, but they were pleasantly suprised that they were of a good standard, with like I said a couple slightly below par as you would expect from any course intake - including CTC.

In general I would just like to ascertain that the course delivers at the end as I have my MCC in a couple of weeks and would be looking at this course as my next step and would like to work for EZY and apply through the proper channels ofcourse, but would be fine to work anywhere in the world that the job would send me.

[potkettleblack]

Where to after Air Arabia? What are your dreams and aspirations after you have done your time with Air Arabia? Don't forget that your CV will be with you for your entire career so unless you want to end up being a journeyman scouring the earth working for every and any operator that will have you then you need to consider carefully who you are prepared to work for and their reputation in the industry.

[Captain Punishment]

potkettleblack: The Air Arabia thing is sold as 'full time employment' so I would maybe quite happlily stay in middle east if I liked it out there and then on to Etihad, Emirates or one of the other carriers to graduate onto the A330 or something when I have a few thousands hours - Why do you ask?

I think the newbies looking for their first job are not able to pick and choose their first job on the carriers reputation nor what it looks like on or CV's, so my aim would be to take anything going and pick and choose my next step after that.

It's all a nightmare at the mo I know, but we all just want to get a start and start living the dream. With the money and time spent there is no going back now for us all. Just need to open as many doors as possible and take what is offered.

[EpsilonVaz]

Captain Punishment: I am on the ATP scheme.

I think the reason many people on the ATP scheme don't post here is because they know they will get jumped on. However I can say that most of them definately read this forum daily.

potkettleblack: Beggars can't be choosers in a climate like this, but once I have hours on type, I will be better off. I have many ideas on where I would like to go after Air Arabia, I am 21, I wish to eventually work for a large airline in the UK, but who knows what will happen in the future? All we can do is use our judgement to try and ensure our best possible futures.

[Screwballs]

I see people are now taking advice from Cabin Crew.


Wise.

[assymetricdrift]

EpsilonVaz:

So you think that having a few hours of line training under your belt is going to actually be a great aid in an industry that has effectively gone up it's chuff in the last 6 months?

Just think about the number of experienced pilots out there who have just lost their jobs. XL, Zoom, Silverjet - and on and on. Those guys and girls most likely have a vast amount more experience of commercial operations, flying, command of a commercial aircraft and will also be very employable.

Let us not forget that this industry is going through a bleak time right now, and schemes like this are not helping anyone. If you want sympathy - check out those 25 odd guys and girls from CTC who have just been released after their 6 month probation period. I am sure schemes like this have not helped their cause at all - the reason is that pilots who pay for this are cheaper than cadets that would be with the airline for a long time, and eventually get command.

Very short sighted decision really by all concerned. I hope BALPA get involved and prevent something like this from happening in the future again.

[Cancel2LateLunches]

When I asked asked a training Captain I was flying with the other day about the standard these ATP guys he simply said "it appears the only selection process these guys have gone through is that their cheques cleared"

[Rollerboy]

Where are these pilots line training or line flying with Air Arabia or Easyjet they may look at these forums every day but why don't they post on here to shut up the dissenters. My feelings are if the deal was so good, guys and girls would be crowing about it on here and singing the ATPs praises. I have checked out the ATP site and once again there are no testimonies about how great it is as yet....

My feeling are that paid or other schemes such as ATP, Storm CTC and Ryanair have had there day in the present climate. They may return but currently they have no place.

Now it's not all doom and gloom feeders such as Flybe will start recruiting again and the airlines will recover in time. I suggest that instructing would be cheaper and in the long run make you more attractive to all employers than A320 and 300hrs that have been in the log book for over a year.

Roller

[Captain Punishment]

And Captain Punishment, you are correct, as far as I know, the first batch who have just finished their line training have gone to one of ATP's partner airlines, Air Arabia.


EpsilonVaz: I have had 2 PM's regarding the employment at the end of the scheme with Air Arabia that does not reflect your view.

2 separate students that have finished or are very close have indicated that they still haven't had any concrete evidence of anyone going to Air Arabia, ATP have been talking about another carrier now.

Aparently the story keeps changing and everyone is still in limbo land waiting for information about the job at the end of the course.

They have been worrying all through the course about wether all the promises will be true, it is still the same upon completion apparently.

It is a shame as I was really starting to think that this course was my next step once I get my MCC done.

Does anyone else have any hard evidence about the job situation at the end? Just as another poster mentioned, I can't see that the ATP lot are in anyway worried about 'getting jumped on' as EpsilonVaz suggested if there was good news. I would expect far from it, they would indeed be crowing about it and sat there smiling knowing that it all came good for them and they have a job and we do not and I wouldhave thought been the first to jump on here and silience the doubters.

I wonder if there is any chance of ATP doing something to prove that hey have delivered the job at the end as promised??!! Lets hope they do, then they would certainly have many takers and many less doubters then.

[Ylva]

Captain punishment,i do agree with you that no one has been placed i know two guys personally who did the course,from what they are telling me is exactly what you have written.

[angelorange]

STEER CLEAR OF PAY TO WORK LINE TRAINING!

It ruins the Terms and Conditions of all Pilots.

[Captain Punishment]

Yvla: Thanks for your post, I guess the real true filters out in the end no matter what. I think most people are hearing this.

Maybe as its a new scheme its just a slow starting for the first jobs etc and then with the door open more will just walk straight in.

The worry is that all these carriers mentioned linked with the ATP scheme are advertising for pilots right now, so why aren't these students having to wait a couple of months etc and not getting the jobs now when the airline need them now??

Maybe it is all legit,but it sures seems suspect to me at the moment. I will keep in touch with my contacts to see what is happening on this one.

[Captain Punishment]

Anybody have any more news on jobs after completion of the line flying with easyJet?

There must be more people that have gone through the scheme by now that could comment surely?

[angelorange]

AIR ARABIA FO requirements:

- A minimum of 1500 hours as your total flying hours.
- A minimum of 800 hours on A320, and currently on A320

So recent ATP cadets would be unlikely to go there with under half the hours required on type and probably nowhere near the total time.

[FatFlyer]

Two points,
If ezy have agreed with BALPA not to enter into this training partnership again, who will be doing the line training?

I assume ATP will advertise on their website, the percent of their clients who have gained full time employment since training, to show others who are interested how good they are?

[tom775257]

Angelorange, airline requirements are very flexible, so the Air Arabia requirements will not necessarily rule out these guys.

That said, I am not convinced by this scheme, if I was a chief pilot, I would want either 1) Cadets who are brand new who can be indoctrinated in the company flying culture/SOPS or 2)People with enough experience on type to make the SOP conversion the main problem, with flying the aircraft second nature.

I would not want to employ people who have come freshly out of completing line training for another airline. You would have to reprogram them at a stage where routine and process gives them something to hang their hat off.... not ideal IMHO (this is said as an FO who has seen people really struggle in my previous airline who have gone through a scheme like this).

[Captain Punishment]

tom: But these guys did get a job after a scheme like this even if it was by their own efforts and not being placed by the training provider? I know it would be tough in these times, but not absolutely impossible.

[Flaps up no lights]

A close friend of mine completed said course and Line training two weeks ago, Still no job and in limbo and yes he had all the gaurantees of a job offer!!!! but he does not have the total time to be employable with these middle east airlines and Easy certainly are not taking them on.....:ugh: Bad timing I guess :eek:
Good luck to all :ok:

[tom775257]

Cpt. Punishment,

Yes, if it works, and gets you a job for the vital first 1000 hours jet or so..

If Air Arabia is the destination airline of choice at the moment, why not simply give them a phone call? It shows a proactive side of yourself, plus it might give you the info you need to make an informed decision. If they tell you to PFO, well you know probably it isn't all that great. I am sure with a bit of research you could find the telephone number of someone there.

Personally I paid for a type rating as a GECAT cadet, that worked very well for me; 2 years later I am a senior FO on the A320 series at a large UK airline. That was two years ago sadly. This current climate doesn't have so many ways in, so if you can find one that works; fairplay!

[Captain Punishment]

TOM: Thanks for insight into your experience and am pleased that you got where you wanted to be after paying for a type rating.

It goes to show that the system does work, although as you quite rightly said times are hard for someone giving you a start - need experience to get a job, but you need a job to get experience!

[shapiro]

i know for a fact no one has been sent to an airline through atp as of yet.

atp is a money making scheme

the aviation world is really changing... just like in any industry there are lots of small companies making money out of "innocent wannabe hopefuls..(pilots)"

if you dont believe me..which is understandable...
wait to see results before you invest in this course.
ask to speak to the pilots that have been sent to the airline..i dont think that is too much to ask for $46000.

good luck what ever you do.. please be careful of atp

[Captain Punishment]

shapiro: Thanks for your view I would be very interested if you did the course or knew somebody that did etc? You can PM me if you don't wish to discuss on here publicly.

[shapiro]

lets just say iam working for one of the companies offering line training for atp students and have had the pleasure/or not:sad: of flying with some of you guys and girls.

[ed_boy]

i know for a fact no one has been sent to an airline through atp as of yet.

atp is a money making scheme

the aviation world is really changing... just like in any industry there are lots of small companies making money out of "innocent wannabe hopefuls..(pilots)"

if you dont believe me..which is understandable...
wait to see results before you invest in this course.
ask to speak to the pilots that have been sent to the airline..i dont think that is too much to ask for $46000.

good luck what ever you do.. please be careful of atpOnly 2 posts and it doesn't take a genius to work out which airline you work for, but as there are more than 2 partner airlines on the ATP scheme I wonder at your assumptions.

Of course its a money making scheme - aren't all businesses?

Its not just aviation that's changing - the world is changing and this is not the first time people ('innocent wanabees' oh pleeeease) have had to pay for any kind of training - history has many examples.

If it gives you an edge I say go for it, after all the days of paid-for type ratings are long gone in my opinion. As for the pleasure/or nothttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif of flying with some of the ATP guys and girls, I find that a crass comment, but I'm sure they would voice the same opinion about you.

:ugh:

[student88]

What with the latest Monarch CTC cadets out the job soon there will be even more experienced CV's added to the piles!

[shapiro]

if you dont believe me..which is understandable...
wait to see results before you invest in this course.
ask to speak to the pilots that have been sent to the airline..i dont think that is too much to ask for $46000.

good luck what ever you do..

[Wannabe24]

OK, wasn't going to admit it but here goes. I recently attended assessment for the ATP scheme. I was one of only two English candidates out of 7 people. That alone says something about the level of mistrust about this scheme. All but 2 of the candidates present were clueless Greeks and Italians who were quite truly living in cloud cuckoo land with their belief that they would be walking straight into a jet job (no offence intended). The top notch sales pitch delivered over lunch does wonder! There was a 50 question tech "test", which wasn't too bad in terms of difficultly but the hilarious thing is we were all left in a room on our own discussing the answers! There was also a personality profile questionnaire. The standard type.

Over lunch, they discuss how Middle Eastern airlines are "begging" for pilots but tactically avoid stating how many people have been placed with airlines. Sadly, our European friends are very unsuspecting but for a native English speaker the Bull5hit factor is hard to ignore.

The sim session was interesting to say the least. Let’s just say it left me shocked to see how incapable even those with a thousand hours instructing are at manipulating a jet.

They got in touch with me very quickly and said I was the only one who showed the “right” skills and only I was being offered a place for next months course. As the days rolled by the story kept on changing. It went from one, to two, to three people (who attended the assessment at the same time as me) now starting the course. Wait a minute! I thought they were no good??? The way the story changed left a bitter taste in my mouth. It proved to me that by them stating I was the only good one that I would be extra keen on signing up, when the truth was far from that. I declined because I could no longer trust their word.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks for posting that.

Can't say I'm in the least bit surprised but its useful for Wannabes to read about your experience.

WWW

[ed_boy]

Well, they must be doing something right. I understand they have 40 people going through their course next year.

Has anyone actually gone through this scheme yet and actually been offered a job anywhere? Their website states:

'Potential placement with our several airline partners...'
'AND SUBJECT TO SUCCESSFUL COURSE COMPLETION...ATP have several partner airlines waiting to take you on board!'

A320 Type Rating Training (http://www.simulator-experience.com/A320-type-rating-training.html)

Does anyone know who these airline partners are? Air Arabia is mentioned as one of them, but does anyone know anymore?

[IrishJetdriver]

Do not pay for a TR without a job offer. The only TR scheme worth its salt is the Ryanair scheme which does offer a job subject to you passing all aspects of the TR course.

Please listen to the advice said so often before. Keep the money in the bank and wait for better times. They will come at some point so be financially ready for that day.

Do not pay for a TR without a job offer. Less than 500hrs on type is not worth much now. There are hundereds of pilots with thousands of hours on Airbus and Boeing family aircraft out there looking for jobs. You do not realistically stand a chance.

These are desperate times for newbies. There is a saying that desperate times mean desperate measures. It doesn't mean doing something stupid. Paying for a TR with no absolutely guaranteed (subject to passing the course) job I reckon counts as stupid.

Incidentally, I do work for Ryanair and they are not my first employer and they did pay for my TR. My experience of them over last 18mths has been nothing other than good and i don't fly with any FO who doesn't believe they are in the best place possible too.

[Callsign Kilo]

Well done Wannabee24 for having the balls and coming out to admit what 'really' goes on in schemes like these. I'll be perfectly blunt here, but it's a general trend in aviation to see the same old molly-coddled trumpets turning up in abundance with a cheque book about the same size as the gap between their ears. I despair at the naivety of some people in this game, and this is where the TRTOs and FTOs play their trump cards. Only the other day I picked up a leading GA magazine that had a 5 or 6 page article on becoming an airline pilot. The chief head of spin at Oxford had been quoted saying how great a time it was to blow 70K in their direction - 'train in the downturn and be well placed for the upturn,' or some other shoite along those lines. I immediately pictured the phones ringing off their hooks at Kidlington - 'I want to be an airline pilot, tell BA I'm signing up now.' Once all that doesn't work, they'll trot off to the ATP scheme in order for their heads to be filled with more propaganda. I see the same old faces when I turned up for assessment at my current airline. Lots of money, but lacking in any real ability and most of all any common sense. It must be nice in La La land!

[Captain Punishment]

Hi chaps

It has been a while now since I frist posted my question about if anyone had heard any whiffs of the "full time position" offered upon completion of the easyjet/ATP scheme.

Has anyone any fresh news to throw into the mix?

Look forward to hearing your replies.

H

[student88]

PS: Get your place booked now. Seriously! Places are VERY limited. We can only take 4 trainees per month. Remember, this offer will not last long!
PPS: You can start your process today (http://www.simulator-experience.com/contact-airline-training-partnership.html) ... and pretty soon you'll be well on your way to being a qualified First Officer... or you can do nothing, and nothing will change.
And this is from the very professional companies website. Are they writing a love letter? PPS!? How embarrassing.

[sharpclassic]

Captain Punishment... or should it be Sucker for Punishment?

Looks like the silence says everything. Airlines take advantage of schemes like this.

Failling revenue from ticket sales and sandwiches? What do we do?

Hmm, it seems that some people are willing to pay US to do a job we normally have to pay THEM for. WTF?! AMAZING!!! Get them signed up! Employment law? Oh, ok, so we just offer them short term contracts, get the money off them, bin them and get a whole load of new people in! Do we even need to carry passegers anymore?!

A lot of people don't like WWW posts, but, sadly, more often that not he is right. Do you want to create an industry where you will spend your whole career going from 6 month contract to 6 month contract? Is that the glamourous airline pilot job you've payed all this money for?

[Captain Punishment]

Sharpclassic what a bunch of drivel. I had heard all this before, I am merely watching the space and have not signed up for the course, nor would I unless there was a cast iron offer on the table, hence why I am, like many others seeing if all the twoddle that ATP spin will ever actually materialise. If it does and I can confirm from a few unrelated sources I would think about it, until then the search goes on for anything that comes up. Believe it or not I am not sat around waiting for this lot to happen, but am keen to know if at all there is any positive that anyone has taken from the scheme.

Merely keeping an eye on things and keeping my options open just like the next man!

[one post only!]

Quite apt that the website reads like a DFS advert as after completing the training it does sound like people are going to be sat back on the sofa sending CV's out to find a job!!

For this month only.............

[ed_boy]

Rumour has it that some of the ATP cadets have been for interview with an airline in the middle east. Apparently the package is not that fantastic, but if true then surely it puts this scheme in a different light, if not, then its just another TR scheme and I would suggest the 40 cadets they supposedly have lined-up for next year will have to seriously consider their options.

There's mention about the 150 hours these guys get but the advert states upto 250 hrs & job placement available: http://m1.2mdn.net/1694568/AirlineTraining.gif Does the 250hrs happen ? Seems the job placement scheme 'could' be.

Perhaps someone from ATP would care to post on here and disperse some of the truth surrounding these rumours...

[Ylva]

Guys as I have said before know someone who did this scheme and since then he has been left high and dry.the training is top notch no doubt but after that just know you are on your on

[Nearly There]

There's mention about the 150 hours these guys get but the advert states upto 250 hrs & job placement available:

You do get 150 hours line training, then, as a mate who was on the scheme did, you can purchase another 100 hours at a lower cost to make up the 250hrs

He is currently unemployed, at home sending out CVs to every airbus operator on the planet.

[Callsign Kilo]

Have people who have invested in this scheme had a labotomy? People who are considering entering it in the current climate must have had the other half of their brain removed as well.

100 hours line training, another 150 hours at a reduced rate.
Possible, but bloody unlikely interview with some tin pot outfit in the desert
No one who has completed the scheme in a job. Partner airline unwilling to employ anyone after completion.
An advert which reads like something that had been put together by Del Boy Trotter. Jesus H Christ....Alarm bells are ringing.

[bananaman2]

heard second-hand info - contrary to the above that the scheme had ceased partnership with easyjet for the line flying hours and was now using cyprus airways as the training partner with increased line hours of 250.

Immaterial as this scheme is of no interest but just for info.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Several people have contacted me and told me to run away from this as fast as humanely possible.


I wouldn't possibly know anything about it. Sounds like a wonderful deal and a great opportunity.

WWW

[Husky One]

I agree. Fantastic opportunity! You get to pay Easyjet to run their schedule next summer and then get the rest of your career off. This must be what Gordon Brown means about spending your way out of a recession.

[jb5000]

There has to be scope for a false advertising, sharp practice or fraud claim for the guys and girls who have gone through this 'scheme'.

From their own website (Simulator Experience Home Page of The Airline Training Partnership - ATP (http://www.simulator-experience.com))

- "Once you have been trained, YOU will be a high quality commodity and we have several airlines waiting to sign you up as a direct entry First Officer with full salary and benefits."

- "The best time is NOW!"

- "Now, is a great time to consider a career in the airline industry. There is Growing Demand for Airline Pilots."

- "Few industries demonstrate as quantifiable a demand for new employees as the regional airline industry."

- "Thousands of Job Openings Every Month"

- "ATP have several partner airlines waiting to take you on board!"

- "It's a "Win - Win" situation!"


That is just the beginning of the lies that they are spreading, and using amateurish hard selling tactics that are more akin to a used car salesman or Nigerian Phishing scam than a professional Airbus TRTO. Even the website name "simulator-experience" implies some a red-letter-day style organisation, it's deplorable.

- "PS: Get your place booked now. Seriously! Places are VERY limited."

Well now you've said 'Seriously' I'm definitely going to do it.

- "or you can do nothing, and nothing will change."

Yes, I can do nothing, I will save a lot money and get a job in the upturn in a couple of years. I won't give what little I have to you, so I can jump a few places in the bankruptcy queue. Finally you've written some sense on your "website".


I am embarassed that a major UK airline has anything to do with this company.

For everyone that has gone through this scheme, I feel for you, I really do. Absolute best of luck finding work out there.

[G SXTY]

It's a worrying thought that anyone daft enough to be taken in by this marketing drivel could be sat in the driver's seat of an airbus. :ooh:

[Bealzebub]

With a sense or irony though, wouldn't the fact they were sat in that "drivers seat of an airbus" vindicate the decision?

[jb5000]

It would, if the cadets stood any chance of getting a proper job at the end of it.

I don't want to start a debate on the rights and wrongs of paying for a type rating with no job guarantees at the end. At the height of the flight training boom this sort of scheme would have helped lots of people into the industry, for better or for worse they would be on a decent salary and would be in the RHS of a jet.

I want to start a debate as to why ATP are being allowed to get away with conning tens of thousands of pounds from desperate wannabes when they know that there is no chance of a job at the end. Jonathan Curd knows that his claims on his website are utter, utter fiction and he should be held accountable.

If you want to get a realistic view of the flight training industry then read some of WWW's posts. Now is not the time to be buying a new sofa let alone an A320 type rating.

If you want to throw your own money / your parents money / the banks money away then the website is The Airline Training Partnership (http://www.simulator-experience.com) .

[jb5000]

http://www.audioacrobat.com/export/P0c2d06b6acd0e2bb4a62fd018b435e00YFh9QFREYmN2.mp3

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

:mad:

[fly172829]

i just wanted to let people know that i was on the ATP scheme

I found the company: Jonathen and Stelios to be very deceitful, they are basically playing with peoples dreams

They are liars and only after one thing " your money"

open your eyes people!!!!

I posted this on here as i did not want people to make the same mistake i did by paying ATP only to be taken for a ride!!!

I know i made a mistake and i am paying the consequences, i do not need to be told by the other members of pprune.

[Burger81]

fly172829,

Sorry, to hear of your woes. Is this ATP scheme anything to do with CTC's ATP programme that they offer when open to apply after gaining CPL/IR??

[Nearly There]

No, nothing to do with CTC.

[Aerospace101]

call watchdog - they should be investigating thus sort of stuff

remember if something sounds too good to be true it normally is!

[Wannabe24]

Wow fly172829.

You're a brave man for coming out. Take a look at the other thread about ATP. I posted my experiences. Exact same as you. I heard 3 lies before I even started the course. They had clearly stated people were already employed however I've since learnt that no one has been placed with any airline. Which is fine but it doesn't jsutify charging £26k for a TR !!! Clearly they are making a killing out of the TR business.

[bjkeates]

Ironic that the banner advert that came up on my screen immediately above the original post was the one for Airline Training Partnership, proclaiming "Job Placement Available"...

How they get away with it is anyone's guess.

[ed_boy]

Perhaps the owners of ATP would care to comment on these posts in person. After all, I think most people now know who they are :ok:

Besides, that would also serve to alleviate a few nerves on here for those that have been through the scheme and those considering it..

[118.50]

The Owner a certain Jonnathan, used a name of Easy.......something and posted on pprune to advertise his company, he was pretending to be somebody and by saying something of the lines " have you hear much about this company, my mate has done it and says its top notch"

Very great and convinient way to post a link to to your company; he even started to bad mouth his company; saying easyjet is not a great career airline and that its good for a stepping stone, very proffesional.

[Callsign Kilo]

ATP Scheme - New York, Paris, Peckham "No money back, No guarantee"

[QAFPS]

Just wanted to add my personal thanks to all those who didn't listen to the advice given on here about this scheme at its incepetion. Not only have I enjoyed not being called off standby but also the extra money you guys have paid in as easyJet's most profitable speedy boarders (with an allocated seat) has contributed very nicely to my circa 5% payrise.
Thank you!
:ok:

[student88]

When mentioning Stelios we are talking about the Stelios Haji-Ioannou, founder of easyJet right?

[johnpilot]

No he is another idiot who works as a pilot for easyJet.
The other Sir Stelios is a reputable business man, he would have probably started his own easy320 Type Rating School, not a fly by night operation......

[320seriesTRE]

From what we hear, the company belongs to some other high profile easy management pilot.

The contract has been terminated and the TRTO is going bankrupt.

They will no longer send any students to easyJet or for that matter to any other airline.

This information has been crosschecked and confirmed by senior training staff.

[Wannabe24]

Just Google his name and you will find that the guy is no ordinary TRI/TRE. He's been marketing 'fear of flying' videos for years. A true business man with an outrageous sales pitch and sales tactic that will fool many. ATP RIP.

[Wannabe24]

Moderators,

The ATP ad.....I know business is business is business but isn't there some kind of limit for aiding blatantly deceitful/untrustworthy organisations???

[wbryce]

If its true about ATP going up in flames, then the industry is now a 'baw' hair better.

I feel sorry for the guys who paid money to this company but the correct advice was always posted here from day 1.

[kangy]

Hello guys

Just to let you all know, I was part of the ATP scheme, one of the first through the training and I just wanted to share my own views on this matter.

I'm not going to get into an embroiled discussion about the rights or wrongs of doing such a scheme - it was my decision entirely and I stand by it 100%

I have not been born with a silver spoon in my mouth, nor do I enjoy the benefits of wondrous and plentiful contacts, I am a hardworking, down to earth, middle class chap who wants to make something of himself, and for all of you who would deny me bettering myself and achieving something - who said class snobbery was dead eh? ;)

I gave myself a few months of sending CV's out, making phonecalls, knocking on doors etc with no reply before deciding on the TR/LT route.
For those that will obviously say that my flying skills are of a questionable nature, I undertook the GAPAN/RAF test a while back and my results were one of the highest they have had, high enough for the RAF to try and talk me out of going for the airlines and actually onto fast jets instead.

The truth of the matter being unless you had lots and lots of hours, or unless you know someone pretty senior within the industry there was not much chance of getting a job with 200hrs and a CPL/IR, hence I decided to go for a Type Rating with 150hrs Line Training (as we all know that a type rating without any hours on type is pretty worthless), just the same as a few friends before me have done (with different companies) and all successfully are in jobs now by the way.

I found the Type rating hard work but enjoyable - The (easyJet) instructors were great, methodical, knowledgeable and took the time to teach you properly.... its no wonder that they have such a high reputation for training within the industry!

The Line Training with easyJet was fantastic, the Training Captains were very professional, took the time to train you properly, constantly tested your knowledge by hitting you with questions and I'm very thankful that I decided to go the LT route with ATP/easyJet as I've put the hard work and effort in and got a really good standard of training out of it.

Now to the crux of the matter - the job...
When I signed up I wasn't guaranteed anything! I was assured there was a very good chance of employment, but looking at it on a purely training point of view, ie an A320 TR with 150 (very good quality) hours on type it seemed highly attractive as eagle jet offer a similar scheme for approx £15,000 more again with no job guarantee either!

When I started my Type Rating the industry was going hell for leather, there were staff shortages, there was no fuel problems (still under $100 a barrel) and nobody had even come up with the term 'credit crunch' - no reason for me to believe that I wouldn't be able to find employment with someone like easyJet - entry requirements needed for a direct entry FO is a TR and 50 hrs on type

Since then lets just take stock of what has happened -

easyJet, Ryanair, Thomas Cook and BMI alongside nearly every other airline that would normally be happy to take on low hours guys with Airbus on its fleet, around the world has stopped recruitment

We've seen crude prices soar to over $150 a barrel and have now dropped to just under $50 jeopardising airlines that hedged at the wrong time

Zoom, XL, Frontier, Skybus, Silverjet, ATA ans Oasis airlines to name but a few have all gone bankrupt with the likes of even Alitalia in trouble

Pilots being forced to take unpaid leave

Banks are going under on both sides of the Atlantic

Governments are handing out billions of pounds to save others only to have them then repossess peoples homes

...and that dreaded term 'credit crunch' is on eveyones minds

Am I surprised that I'm not in a job?
Not really.

Am I confident that I'll get a job once it picks up?
Very confident.

Do I think I'll get offered a job ahead of the hundreds of CPL/IR guys with no jet experience?
I'd like to think so.

Do I blame ATP for the current global economic downturn?
Have a guess.

Do I think ATP have done everything in they could to secure us interviews, even in this climate?
I know they have been and still are working bloody hard at it!

Do I think I made the wrong decision doing the TR/LT?
No.
Although my timing could have been better.

Do I think that I have done everything I could have possibly done within my means and power to make myself attractive to the airlines?
YES.



That's really all I want to say..... sorry its been a bit long winded, but I think everybody has missed the most major point here - what the industry economic climate is like!

As I said, I am one of the first four to be put forward and I know that the other 3 guys all share the same views as me. It's extremely frustrating for us, but we all realise what an utterly crap time it is for this whole industry!

I invite any other ATP guys & gals who feel the same way as me on this matter to post a reply.


Darvinder (Dee) Kang
aka Deefect


ps. ATP have not gone bankrupt, up in flames, up in smoke etc etc so thanks to all the scaremongering people out there who enjoy putting about rumours to destroy peoples and students livelihoods, its our lives you are playing with and I will thank you all kindly to allow us to make our own decisions may they be good or bad

[Aerospace101]

I undertook the GAPAN/RAF test a while back and my results were one of the highest they have had, high enough for the RAF to try and talk me out of going for the airlines and actually onto fast jets instead.


Top Gun eh? So that how raf recruitment works now? They cream off the best people taking the GAPAN aptitude test onto fast jets. Arrogance!!

[darkstar513]

Hi Everyone

I was also part of the ATP scheme and agree completely with Dee's post. The training I received from the EasyJet Captains was second to none and from my training records I received high praise.

After getting first time passes and high averages in all the ground school exams and flight tests it was not enough to get in the front door of an airline. I decided that if I was to get a type rating, I would choose the Airbus and that line experience was vital. I have hit industry at a very low point but I will continue to work hard and focus on my main goal which is to fly.

Kind regards and safe flying
Philip Bradley

[jb5000]

"That's really all I want to say..... sorry its been a bit long winded, but I think everybody has missed the most major point here - what the industry economic climate is like!"

The climate for wannabees right now is appalling.

On the ATP website the patronising advertising tells you otherwise.

They are lieing to their potential customers to try to get them to part with their hard earned cash.

This economic downturn has been forecast for.. a year? at least? Personally I think it's immoral for ATP to take so much cash off of you when the likelihood of getting a job is, and has been for as long as this scheme has been going, very limited.

[Screwballs]

ps. ATP have not gone bankrupt, up in flames, up in smoke etc etc so thanks to all the scaremongering people out there who enjoy putting about rumours to destroy peoples and students livelihoods, its our lives you are playing with and I will thank you all kindly to allow us to make our own decisions may they be good or bad


And what do you think paying to fly for easyJet was doing to FO and SFO's livelihoods?

You seem to miss the point from the FO's and SFO's already in easyJet whom you are poaching hours and money from: I'm glad you didn't get a job with easyJet.

Screwballs

[student88]

All I'm saying is that I couldn't believe it when my friend who's been on the ATP course told me they were asked to give positive feedback on PPRUNE and include their real name at the end of the post.

[SA242]

The sooner ATP die the better. Its undermining other pilots' work conditions and making a joke of the profession.

[320seriesTRE]

As I said yesterday,

They had their contract terminated by easyJet. They will not be around very long now.

In the current market they will not survive. I cannot see any keen pilot wannabe getting a loan from the bank to pay for a type rating, job or no job at the end of it.

They have no students for next year, as they have not booked any simulator. They have just completed their final course.

They will not be missed by anyone in easyJet for sure.

Enough said.

[ed_boy]

All I'm saying is that I couldn't believe it when my friend who's been on the ATP course told me they were asked to give positive feedback on PPRuNe and include their real name at the end of the post.

And you forgot to mention the loaded gun that was held to their heads too.

What a load of drivel. Your post is completely out of order.

[Bealzebub]

Caveat emptor, caveat emptor, caveat emptor!

Having clicked through their advertisment, and having read this thread, what is the complaint?

You appear to contract for a type rating with a limited amount of "line" training. Are they not providing this?

They advertise that this course will enable your CV to supposedly offer more than another inexperienced pilot without a similar type rating and limited line training? Well it might if a potential employer was actually looking at applications at this level.

I am having some trouble finding the word "Guarantee" in respect of the arguments that are being levelled.

When it comes to the advertising that companies engage in to promote their products there are statutes and regulations that govern the subject. Nevertheless it is a creative industry, that resources individuals aspirations, desires, and perceived needs, in order to market it's products. It is up to the purchaser to research and decide if they really want to purchase the product. If they are not sure they should read the first line of this post and repeat it over and over until they either are sure, or the urge passes.

Businesses need to survive, and whilst nobody would advocate that they do so on the back of anything fraudulant or illegal, it is ridiculous to suggest that such behaviour is a result of the customers disappointment with their own unrealistic expectations.

There are a lot of generalisations being thrown into the air on this thread. What is it specifically that this company has done wrong, that is evidenced by their advertising?

[SA242]

I think you'll find the major gripe here is that these girls and guys are paying to sit in the RHS of a jet during a revenue generating flight for 150hrs. That undermines every other pilot who is actually trying to make a living off the very same thing! This can only bait airlines into squeezing the pay and reducing the benefits from real pilots! Not good for the industry and your average hard working pilot in general, especially in these hard times.

[Bealzebub]

Yes I understand that aspect, and the gripe from those quarters, however that is not a case of this company doing anything that justifies some of the complaints being levelled here. That particular criticism is one to be levelled at the airline.

Given that the insurers and the regulators are happy to allow pilots with these levels of experience to carry out this type of operation (and they clearly are, provided an "experienced" pilot is in the left seat,) then neither the airline nor the training provider, nor the individual "purchasor", seems to be doing anything wrong? I am not advocating the morality of anything here, simply questioning those who seem to be suggesting and indeed stating that this company is in breach of anything contained in the contract they enter into with the buyer. Taking that further, I am not defending this company as such, but simply asking where is the evidence to support some of these statements that they have done anything unlawful?

It seems that there is a hardcore of Pilot wannabees, who seriously believe that any organisation can provide them with guarantees that will satisfy their often completely unrealistic aspirations and expectations, simply because they are naive or fail to do any adequate research, or refuse to believe anything other than what they want to believe.

[Burger81]

Kangy,

If the RAF offered you a place flying their fast jets at approx £40k, in the current climate, why not snap their hand off and then look for the Airline job a few years down the line when the industry picks up??:confused:

[I'm Off!]

Because they didn't. End of.

[Burger81]

I'm off,

My thoughts exactly!!

[potkettleblack]

Am I confident that I'll get a job once it picks up?
Very confident.

Do you honestly think that with 150 hours trained by Easyjet that you will be marketable against the many pilots out there with many thousands of hours? Easyjet were approached by this outfit to provide a service. The service was to train you up to a standard to pass a line check (presumably) or at the least to fly 150hrs alongside you and make sure that you were of a standard not to endanger the revenue flight. I guess whether you passed a check or not was irrelevant since there was no job at the end. No more no less. Easyjet didn't offer you a job afterwards - period.

Even during the hey day of the boom BA still required 500hrs on type unless you were one of the lucky few that came through the integrated ranks.

If your not careful you will end up being one of the many journeymen out there trawling the world in search of your hours. A few hours for free here and there or a short term contract here and there to get a few bob. Seniority and terms and conditions will be things that you can only dream of. Good luck.

[Cancel2LateLunches]

A question to darkstar513 and kangy.

If you both entered into this scheme before the world fell over as you say, then why did you not apply to Ryanair where for the same price you would of got a rating on the 737 and a job to go with it???

[Aerospace101]

obviously being told you are fast jet material after only an aptitude test gives you the mentality that a job at ryanair is far too inferior! Along with TP opportunities with flybe who were heavily recruiting...

[kangy]

OK guys

Now this is exactly the kind of behaviour that stops people posting on here.... nothing but bitter bitc*y guys, who've probably had 'silver spoon service' and have nothing but bad things to say about anything - if that's how the industry leaves you I really hope to hell that I don't turn out like you guys!

The RAF assessment was years ago - again you guys judge before knowing any of the facts.... tut tut
My personal situation is my own business, how long its taken me and for what personal family reasons. Rest assured its been a VERY difficult journey, with some difficult decisions but asked to make them again I would do the same.

I am not stupid - do you really assume that I would think I would compare to guys with thousands of hours on type? Get real and stop trying to take cheap shots!

I have treated ATP as a training provider - nothing different to other flight schools I have gone to. You pay your money, get a flight rating be it a PPL, CPL, Multi, IR, or even TR, have some fun times, get some good training and build some hours - whats so different? I decided to go to easy as its GOOD QUALITY TRAINING, so I am to be blamed for wanted something worthwhile instead of some cheap outfit with bad standards?

And as far as taking hours away from guys.... get real, we all know how other charter airlines have had to take over flights for easy over the summer due to lack of crew - added to the fact I was based mainly in Lyon for my line training where not many other easy fo's wanted to be, away from home for a whole week :eek:

If you have a real problem with an employer providing a TRAINING SERVICE, then take it up with your employer, not somebody who pays for and receives a service.

Burger - funnily enough I did not 'rip their hands off' because weirdly it takes a little longer than a few months to do your PPL, CPL, ATPLs, ME, IR & TR hence it was a little while ago we are talking about here....

320 series - your talking complete rubbish btw.... there's still people waiting for the base training and haven't even started the line training yet lol - please get your facts right before posting negative lies - thank you

Pot kettle - easy have not taken any pilots on period! Oddly enough recruitment has been frozen (a) they'd be contradicting themselves if they took us on wouldn't you think (b) I did mention this in my original post, sorry didn't I make this clear enough for you?

As far as Ryanair go..... I've always wanted to fly the Airbus - personal choice and was willing to go the extra mile for the Airbus route as I believe (personal choice so please don't get all up in arms) this is the better plane to progress your career in.

Aerospace - Flybe are recruiting like mad? really?
From their website applications have been closed for ages and on ppjn this is what it says;
"Just announced an OAT/Flybe assisted pilot training for 4 candidates for 2008. Recruitment to Q400 only and from all schools but integrated or one stop modular preferred. "

That pretty much excludes anybody who is either not from OAT or have gone to a one stop shop modular or integrated - again a little restrictive wouldn't you say?

Sorry to say guys this is the last I will be saying on this matter - there is no need to personally attack decent hard working people who are simply trying to better themselves in this life.

Please have a deeper look at what you have to pay through CTC and other schemes, because I did and didn't find there to be that much difference. ATP suited my needs and situation so I chose them - it seems to me that if you guys had your way I wouldn't be allowed to make PERSONAL choices anymore - commies at heart by any chance? ;)

I really cant be bothered with the negative, bit*hy, scaremongering, lying, rumours (lol I could go on for hours here about the bad stuff) so I leave you all to it - that is to really grind people down because it makes you feel big and/or important...... hmmmm sounds a little like bullying to me, lots of people not listening to both sides of an argument and all ganging up on one person lol!

Kindest regards and HAPPY flying!
Dee

[Philpaz]

Now this is exactly the kind of behaviour that stops people posting on here


You just have to ignore the numptys on this site (and there are many). You can't take a site too seriously when one week someone is a 16 year old pre PPL wannabe and 2 weeks later they are on the flight deck forums with there age removed and giving captains advice. Someone needs to install a bullsh!t filter on PPRuNe, although i fear there would be few posters left.

[one post only!]

Kangy, you have to expect a few bitter replies, the ATP scheme is fairly unpopular within EZY. At the moment while ATP guys are still doing line training/flying, there are a lot of EZY FO's who are sat around doing nothing because the flights are crewed by ATP guys. I personally don't care as I am lazy but a lot of guys need more money and they are losing out to your colleagues! We wouldn’t be doing a lot granted, but we are now doing even less!

Also what has really upset people is 22 guys who had completed all their training and had been on line for 6 months were let go by EZY who said we were over-crewed. Basically it can be viewed that these 22 chaps have been replaced by the ATP pay as you go mob. They should be brought back for the summer but in the meantime they have 6 months without a job while people who have paid to fly occupy the RHS!!!


Personally I think this is appalling and so do many of my colleagues. I know you personally didn't wake up one morning and think, "hmmm let’s put some guys out of work" but people paying for training has contributed to this. I am not having a go at you because how were you to know what would happen? But 22 people are struggling financially now because of this scheme. In fairness it wasn't ATP who made the decision to let the full time guys go but if times are tight who do you want flying? Someone you pay or someone paying?!!?!? This is what these courses cause! If times were different and things were going well for airlines this wouldn’t be an issue I bet, but unfortunately things have gone a bit wrong economically to say the least and this scheme is impacting on full-time crew. Sorry but you won't find a lot of love on here as a result.
Once again I am not having a go but just trying to explain why you might find some people being a bit short with you!

There are a lot of people who not be sad in the slightest to see this scheme go tits up.

All the best getting a job, glad you enjoyed your time with us.

[tony2F]

I believe the line training is now starting with BMI!!!

[Mister Geezer]

Yes and judging from the thread on the Terms and Endearment forum, many crews at bmi seem to be contacting BALPA to voice their concerns and dissatisfaction.

Good luck to them as well since the sooner this scam is put to bed... the better!

[tony2F]

here here:ok:

[Nearly There]

A new advert has appeared on here stating min 500hrs of line training, PAID contract on completion of Line Training, anyone any ideas who its with?....although the website still states:

We can secure up to 300 Hours with several operators.
and
Potential placement with our
several airline partners...

Or


Several airlines will be waiting
to sign you up
You will be a direct entry First Officer
with full salary & benefits


Confusing, and still guys from the first batch not in employment, Im not considering it just curious as to how an advert appears on here thats somewhat different to the website and reality!

[THD]

hey

i looked it up apparently its 150h with bmi and after that 400+ with a greek airline in athens who pays you on a 6 month flexi contract and it states that they afterwards know an airline that has pledged to interview their pilots as a priority once the hours have been gained :ugh:

[BigNumber]

THD,

That sounds like a pretty good deal to me fella!

150 hours 'paying for line training' then another 400 hours being paid. Even if it is a flexicrew type engagement it's still a great chance for a wannabe to gain some experience.

The training at BMI will be top draw too:)

I'm sure they'll be a queue for this scheme at ATP.

[THD]

i don't know if you are out after 6 months than its back home like all the others. Ok you have hours on type but their are alot of people at home for the moment with hours on type on airbus and boeing. On their is no secure agreement with their so called partners that will invite you for an interview.I think their are many ex ATP guy's at home without a job after it ends.

[BigNumber]

I'd rather be looking for work with 500hrs on type than with a FATPL MEP/IR!

You've got to be in it to win it!

Good luck whatever you decide to do mate.

(Have a Duvel for me, I always enjoyed one in Wevelgem.)

[THD]

for the duvel i will not hesitate :ok: great tho hear that people enoy the beer here in belgium. I go a lot to wevelgem i will have one in your name next time.

[F117A]

I cannot agree with you more. These ATP schemes are only continuing to narrow our chances of finding jobs and yet people still find the money to fund these ratings knowing that after their placement they are without jobs.

Im sorry guys but I find it absolutely revolting to say the least to have to pay to fly on the RHS. Why should we people who have a Frozen ATPL(A) have to pay to fly after it already cost a fortune. Its absolutely ridiculus and still people are falling for these tricks. Guess what guys after you get the placement...guess were you are going to be..on your sofa with more debt and seeing your next placement flying on the RHS flying instead of you. And this will continue. So how can we eventually get the job? If we are working for free!!!!!

I think some sort of organsation should be formed to try and close down these organisations who are causing this daylight robery.
Its true you will have a TR and the odd 300 for 400 hrs but your ATP is still frozen and you will still struggle to find a job with more debt. I work in the airline industry and I just finished ATPL(A) training a few months ago. These are bad times so we need patience and I know poeple with 1000 ir more hrs on type without jobs so do you think your odd 300 hrs are going to help so much?

Sorry if I offended people who are getting into these schemes but wake up and realise that this roation will keep on going if we do not put a stop to it after all airlines are business and no one will refuse someone working for free!!!!!!!!!!!!

[antonov09]

Why do pprune allow these schemes to be advertised on this site when they contribute to the detriment of our industry.



YOU SHOULD BE F:mad: ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!

[Blackcoffeenosugar]

I hold a full ATPL and have more than 2000hrs on MPA/JAR 25/Multi/Turbine/Jet/EFIS what have you. So do several of my colleagues, but we are not flying A320s or B737s. For job security - or the illusion of such-some of my colleagues are now forking up money to retrain on A320s and B737s. Well aware that at the end of it they will probably need to pay for line training be it LHS or RHS until they have enough hours on type to match the no/low timers. Who benefits from this? This is just a game of outbidding each other! I can remember a time where a CPL/IR-ME(L) was enough to land an F/O position. Then came ATPL theory requirements, then JAR-FCL (no more national lisences), then came MCC, JOC, CRM, DG and so on. Now it is exceptional if a carrier will take you without a typerating even with thousands of hours. I sent out some applications, and even with four typeratings (not all current mind you)- Guess what!? "Sorry, min. 300hrs on type" and that was the most positive reply I got.

I bet, if we keep accepting this, it wound be long before the minimum will be 1000 hours on type, full ATPL and a masters degree :-)

Hey! I just had a business idea! Lets all chip in and start a university that charges say GBP 100.000 (plus extras) and train people to the previously mentioned requirements. Then, one could truely have an airline where the people could travel for free! Look out FR here comes trouble!

[Avenger]

Hi Guys,

I just love it when FR get free advertising! Now for the issues:

1) How many new guys flying recently would be doing so if they had not done a SSTR plus line hours... I can honestly say from our point of view.. nearly nil

2) It is very easy for us to choose between a guy that spent three years in the states, got a good tan, bummed around and eventually got a FATPL against a guy that did it in 18 months

3) In todays climate, Type ratings with no hours on type are not worth a light, unfortunate and sad for those that went down that route before the industry imploded, but nevertheless a fact..why.. training risk and cost

4)Is the turbo prop guy with 2000hrs going onto a jet via SSTR getting an advantage.. YES.. simply because of Agency demand for 1500 JAR 25 and Hull loss insurance

5) Is the like of the ATP scheme good for the industry.. YES...why? reduces cost per cockpit, promotes airline expansion and keeps other guys in work. The general problem is these schemes got a bad name as other more high profile providers failed to deliver the line training in the agreed time, guys ended up out of check and recency..the rest is history

6)You are entitled to your opinion.. as is everyone else, but don't Blame Pprune.. they need advertising revenues too, maybe we should only allow professional pilots on here with a subscription fee.. kick off all the idiots and geeks whom have never been in a plane and with clearly no clue about our industry

7) Is there any going back to the old days, recruitment from frozen ATPL with 170 hrs.. probably not..just look at the hold pools being closed down and the number of contract pilots going up.. 40% of our summer expansion is via agency contract staff! Fact is, these ATP guys could be some of the 40% next year..Hmmm

Am I anything to do with ATP.. No, but I do know where the crews will end up, the scheme is legit as far as we can see.. If I was looking for a chance, albeit at a price, I would seriously consider this type of program while places exist.. No doubt ATP will also get a load of enquiries from the typed no hours guys as well..!

[The Mixmaster]

You've got to be a complete mug to consider paying for a TR plus line training in the current climate.:ok:

[Tolan]

It worked out well for some people I know.

...and with regards to the guys who did the TR+line training and didn't get a job, you must remember that buying a TR+line hours does not make you "owed" a job in any way, you MUST ATTAIN A GOOD STANDARD. A lot of the guys who aren't employed are pretty gash.

[The Mixmaster]

Tolan- I'm just intrigued as to how you know that those that weren't employed were "pretty gash". Did you fly with them?

I'm staggered that people would even consider paying such vast sums of money to work. You're not even working for free, you're paying good money to work!! Do you see doctor's paying for their junior doctor years, or solicitors paying for their training contract? Time people strapped on a pair and stopped getting so desparate. Shame on ATP who run this scheme, making money out of starry eyed, ill informed cadets.

[potkettleblack]

It worked out well for some people I know.

You are right, it DID. ie: we are talking in a historical sense now. Only a few years ago when you did a TR at a well established outfit such as GECAT (as just one example) there were airlines falling over themselves to grab you. You still needed to pass the interviews and entrance tests but working hard on your type rating course and being easy to get along with went a long way to getting a nod from the TRTO.

Times have changed now. Sure sign up for these sorts of deals if you want. But do yourself a favour and put together a wee business plan and see if you will actually get a return on your money. You might just get the hours you signed up for but it will be winter soon enough and the charter outfit won't need you then. No doubt there will be promises of work coming your way in the future and to just hang tight. But as you sit out the winter looking forward to jumping back into the RHS the following summer there will be another bunch of wannabes ready to part with cash and fly for free. The partner airlines might even figure that you will be stale now not having flown for six months. They will have to roster you some sim time and an OPC and then some time with a line trainer. Then there will be a line check. This will all add to their costs. Whereas some young whipper snapper will happily pass them a wad of cash to cover their outlay.

The likes of CTC will start to market their holding pool to any takers adding more competition into the mix. The chances of you getting a gig again will be slim unless you want to throw more of the folding stuff at them.

So what do you do then? Head east and fly for some outfit who thinks that compliance with an MEL is nice to have but its okay to turn a blind eye just to keep things going and deferring defects is the order of the day. That MSA's are for girls and its okay to fly a destabilised approach.

The sad fact is that is where your careers are heading. Do yourself a favour and save your money. Keep your hand in at flying in any way possible and wait out the recession and get into a decent outfit where your life expectancy is assured.

[Kirks gusset]

Curiously I don't see a whole bunch of "shame on you" pointed at Eagle Jet or other SSTR line training providers, one could be forgiven for thinking that there could be some sour grapes around! In any event, as numerous contributors have pointed out, it is a personal choice and I guess the pressure to move forward and at least consolidate on the previous training plays a big part. Like Avenger, I doubt that we will ever see a return to the "Old ways", if you are financially able, I would have a stab at these schemes, goes without saying to get a couple of recommendations first:rolleyes:

[favete linguis]

....you MUST ATTAIN A GOOD STANDARD. A lot of the guys who aren't employed are pretty gash.

What a load of shyte.

A lot of those employed are pretty gash too. How many failed their LST first time and are now back at easyJet, compared to those that passed and still looking for ATP to fulfill their promises?

[The Mixmaster]

Kirks Gusset - Shame on Eaglejet and other SSTR schemes as well. No forgiveness for thinking sour grapes. Personally I wouldn't touch these schemes or anything similiar with my bank managers bargepole. YOU ARE PAYING TO WORK.

[TheBeak]

I know I can add value to any airline without making it in the form of money paid up front. People who pay for these schemes know that they can't and this is there only way in. It's this way or the highway for them - driving a bus.

[Skyhigh86]

Shame on anyone that chooses a scheme like this.

Pilots should be employed by an airline based on their ability to do the job, not on their ability to come up with a shed load of money.

This doesnt happen in any other industry.

For those of you that were successful in this scheme; you got lucky.

For those of you that didnt and are now waiting in some daydream "holdpool", I have no sympathy for you whatsoever; in my eyes your just a contributor to the problem.

[BigNumber]

I'm still not sure that ATP isn't a viable way ahead folks.

ATP is offering 'Training' not employment. It would appear they have secured some high quality training partners to this end. IMhO both BMI and EZY will provide a wonderful basis of training for any FATPL. To this end, I feel their intregrity is as yet unblemished.

The shape of the industry has changed. Many airlines are looking for 'turn key' solutions to piloting, (not ultra capable long term employes to 'bring on' over 2 decades). I have no doubt how capable many of the wannabes are, but fear that most will never get a commercial job to exercise their talents and passion. Often airlines seem to have a short shelf life so expensive and lengthy training of new crews is probably unattractive.

If agency crewing ( flexicrew etc ) becomes the norm, it will become quite usual to require a minimum of 500hrs on type to be considered employable. These contract crews can offer competitive solutions in a harsh market.

I'm not sure that we will ever see a return to 'the good old days'.

[The Mixmaster]

ATP is offering 'Training' not employment.

Lets call a spade a spade Big Number. The hours on the line are revenue flights for the operators. Ergo the cadet is paying out of his or her own pocket to work for the operator. Madness.

[F117A]

No One Gets the point do they....PAYING AIRLINES TO WORK GUYS.. Total madness and how do you expect anyone nd I mean any first officer to get a job if people are paying to fly..

[BigNumber]

Equally, how does anyone hope to find work with a MEP CPL/IR!!!?

When was the last time you spotted such an opening in any of the usual channels ( Flight, AviationJobSearch etc)?? Have you seen something everyone else missed?

I think that the market has changed. I believe it will not be changing back in the 'shelf life' of this generation of wannabe's frozen ATPL's.

Hence I reckon you either 'write off' your losses or invest further to get ahead.

I have not seen anyone 'posting' on here that has completed 500hrs of Line Training and hasn't been successful securing a job. By contrast, there would seem to be plenty of unrated CPL/IR's unable to find any openings.

It would appear to me that 500hrs on type is a must have to be employable in todays market. Therefore, in the absence of any other options, paying your 'dowry' seems the only option innit. A pilots skill set has a highly perishable shelf life.

Good luck to all.

BN

[Tolan]

What a load of shyte.

A lot of those employed are pretty gash too. How many failed their LST first time and are now back at easyJet, compared to those that passed and still looking for ATP to fulfill their promises?

Wasn't aware that there were any, but I may be mistaken. One thing is sure though, the decision on who to keep on was made by the easyJet Head of Training Airbus. From what I have heard, this was based on training files.