Stewardess demoted to First Officer

[shortfinals]

Nice little report at Cabin attendant aided 767 landing after co-pilot incapacitated: inquiry (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/11/19/319070/cabin-attendant-aided-767-landing-after-co-pilot-incapacitated-inquiry.html)
about an Air Canada 76 captain who noticed the first officer was getting unwell.

There were no off-duty or positioning pilots on board, but one of the stewardesses had a CPL and out-of-currency IR. The best that the skipper (who seems to have handled the whole situation very well) can muster to compliment his co-opted right hand seat assistant was that she was "not out of place" there.

Well done all concerned. No news about the real first officer's recovery, though.

[J.O.]

Why would you sully an already unfortunate event, that was very well managed by the Captain, by giving the thread such a ridiculous title?

[Pugilistic Animus]

A pilot is a pilot ---

[The SSK]

If he managed to put out a 'Is there a qualified pilot on board?' call without causing total pandemonium, then he handled it very well indeed.

[Final 3 Greens]

Sounds very well handled to me.

As an frequent flyer with a PPL and a little experience of line SOPs in a sim (so having a basic grasp of how a big jet is operated), I wonder how many airlines train certain flight attendants to assist the remaining pilot in the event of such an incident?

I would have thought that someone from the company, familar with procedures and trained to assist, for example, with checklists would be potentially very useful, even if the remaining pilot could manage by themselves.

[CptRegionalJet]

Who was pilot flying:p???

[pineridge]

Just think how much money the airlines save by not having flight engineers.

[selfin]

Sounds like something of an arranged situation imho.

[slowto280]

Years back, a Pan Am 74 on final into JFK, Captain flying, FO 'notices' PF slumped over. He dutifully takes control, lands and taxis to the gate uneventfully. Next day at the employee cafeteria, most employees were discussing this event. A table of Captains were discussing how "....it's amazing the First Officer knew how to land the plane......". At another table full of FOs' the discussion was how they all "......couldn't believe the FO realized the Captain was incapacitated...." :eek:

[luvly jubbly]

Bet he didn't let her touch anything...... Just read the checklist:ugh:

[Jean-Lill]

I think the Capt was extremely fortunate to have a stewardess amongst his cabin crew team who held a CPL, that must be a very rare thing.

Calling for a pilot over the PA I would imagine would be very disturbing for the pax. It is pretty disturbing when we hear the call for a medical doctor over the PA.

Perhaps the heading of this thread should be Stewardess promoted to First Officer instead of demoted. I am sure she was very useful as it would have been unlikely a 767 type rated pilot would have been amongst the pax.

[C172 Hawk XP]

A reminder, too, of the young male CC who tried to intervene on the Helios 737.

Pity, he wasn't as successful . . . . . . .:sad:

[Witraz]

Me thinks the title of the thread is very much 'Tongue in Cheek', no matter good result regardless

[autothrottle]

Great story , Great CRM or TRM, and like previously stated "a pilot is a pilot". Well done to all concerned.

[Avman]

Nothing wrong with the thread title if you have a sense of humour. :ouch:

[luvly jubbly]

Are you lot for real?? :rolleyes:

No pilot will ask over the PA whether there is another pilot on board.... And they would not need one.

The Helios Accident had both pilots incapacitated..

Standard SOP in an incapacitation is for the other pilot to land the aircraft and, if necessary, to ask a cabin crew member to read the checklist..... Why would you ever need someone to "help to fly the aircraft??" :=

[Hartington]

Flight attendant forced to land plane after co-pilot suffers mental breakdown - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5191202.ece)

Comes good (well better) in the end but the headline and first para give a rather different view of the incident.

[Bealzebub]

Standard SOP in an incapacitation is for the other pilot to land the aircraft and, if necessary, to ask a cabin crew member to read the checklist.....

There isn't really an SOP for this type of situation, in that it isn't really "Standard". There are certainly basic principals to be applied, but the nature of the emergency would dictate the methodology employed as in this case.

For this situation it might well have been appropriate, but generally speaking it isn't usually advisable to have anybody reading checklists, who is untrained or unfamiliar with the process. The remaining pilot is normally better able to refer to the checklist and to action it where applicable.

In this case good application of CRM though, where the crewmember had commercial pilot training.

[bucket_and_spade]

Final 3 Greens,

Our cabin crew are trained to know how to run through a checklist with the fit pilot and, recently, have become familiar with how to operate the radios on the types they fly (I think this is a direct result of the Helios incident).

That last story link says the flight attendant was "forced" to land the jet - what a load of twoddly-bo*****s!

B&S :ok:

[paull]

So guys, If I manage to poison one of the pilots all I have to do is wait for you to ask for a CPL onboard to get a free pass to the flightdeck - please.....

Once I'm installed in the seat will you also have an official handover of the incapacitated pilot's firearm?

Of course, you guys will be able to recognise a REAL pilot, pity that the same is not true of doctors, I have always wondered how you would cope with the case of a wannabe doctor who steps forward and kills someone. Acting under instructions from the captain of course!

Flying lawyer where are you?
:(

[MOLWillie]

shortfinals,

Why are you posting a re-hash of this incident?

Quoted in part from Flight Global:

"The 28 January 2008 incident is described as "serious" in a Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit synoptic report (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/11139-0.pdf)"

Time to bury it, shortfinals!

[NigelOnDraft]

So guys, If I manage to poison one of the pilots all I have to do is wait for you to ask for a CPL onboard to get a free pass to the flightdeck - please.....Where did they ever "ask for a CPL onboard" :ugh:

Have a read of the report... seems to me a very sensible analysis was made of who/what might be available that kept your concerns in mind ;)

NoD

[infrequentflyer789]

Are you lot for real?? :rolleyes:
Why would you ever need someone to "help to fly the aircraft??" :=

Because sometimes they know more than you in the situation. Never say never.

UAL 232.

[Springer1]

We had a simular situation where the capt passed away enroute and the F/O completed the flight. What made it unsual was that the F/O was flying on a medical wavier for sight in only one eye.

[Willowfly]

Just out of interest what would be the situation if the scenerio was reversed and the FO decided that the Captain had become (mentally) incapacitated? Would the FO have the authority to take similar action with the Captain?

[tuskegee airman]

Certainly!! I am not required to determine the "type" of incapicitation. Just that he has become incapacitated.

[flash8]

Reminds me of that old gem spoken by an Asian Airline FO...

"Captain, if you go.... we all go" ;)

[tuskegee airman]

Will try to view that movie. Meantime, have another read of my post (ask the 3rd crew member to help:E)

[llondel]

Wasn't there a recent case (within the last year, I think) of a flight where one of the flight crew was incapacitated and the other one asked if there was someone with pilot experience to come and sit up front. Said private pilot got to do the radio stuff while the PF did the rest. Opinion on here was that it was a good thing to have someone else at least vaguely qualified on the FD just because it's a good idea to have two people there.

As for one person flying, BA5390 shows it can be done, and under very adverse conditions.

[one post only!]

Willowfly, no he doesn't, if the capt does become (mentally) incapacitated the FO has no authority whatsoever to take control. He has to sit and watch a mentally unstable individual fly the aircraft into the sea while babbling about meeting god!!!!!!! Really, what do you think?????? :rolleyes:


You would not (under any circumstances) get a random PPL up front to help out. As mentioned before he could be a terrorist or even just a nut pretending to have a ppl who thinks, mmmhh fancy a go of this, lets press random buttons when the pilot isn't looking!!!!!
You would look for a COMPANY type rated pilot on-board to assist (with ID). Failing that you would then ask one of the members of cabin crew to remain with you, they would then read the checklists out. They have been taught how to do this. They would return to the cabin for landing unless requested by the remaining pilot to stay on the flight deck.

[GANNET FAN]

There is probably a simple answer to this but if the co-pilot on this aircraft was going a bit doolally, how would you get him out of his seat to where he could be retstrained?

A pilot unconscious would be very difficult to remove, assuming he had to be, but a pilot who is suffering from say a breakdown and is perhaps a bit violent, just how could he ne removed without damaging or interfering with instruments etc?

Has this happened to you?

[I spy]

I'm guessing that the Captain would have known that he had a hostie on board that had a CPL (assuming that he had flown with that crew-member previously and if he was an experienced captain with that company, it would make sense).

Pretty much a no-brainer that he would make a discreeet call and get her up there to help out. So she didn't have a current IR - or as Yahoo News reported it "her licence for reading cockpit instruments had expired."

WTF????

She obviously must have got in there and said "My God - what's this circle that reads 90, 180 and 270 mean?????!!!"
:ugh:

Bloody good job on everyone's behalf, in my books

[Sub Orbital]

My goodness. Can't believe some of this. I can't remember a single time in the last 10 years, at least, where a cabin crew member has even asked a single question about the flight deck operation. They don't have a clue and, interestingly, don't want to know. The vast majority of cabin crew don't have any idea how a plane even stays in the sky and I don't have a problem with that as they are employed for a different function with a different skill set. And they are generally very good at that. Certainly better than I'd be. BUT, when it comes to this, we, as pilots, are all trained effectively to fly the aircraft single pilot to a landing at an appropriate airport. And that is what my airline expects and that is what I'll do. No problem. If you don't believe me re their lack of knowledge of how it stays in the sky then just ask them. I've done a survey over the last few years and about 95% had no idea. Of the 5% that said they could, about half said "the engines". Irrespective, I still respect them for the very difficult job they do under sometimes trying circumstances. Horses for courses.

[wbble]

This AAIU report seems completely lacking. The “findings” are just statements of the bleeding obvious, and at the end “This Investigation does not sustain any Safety Recommendations.” Did they actually try to find out what made the FO ill? Surely this is the whole point. They mention possible causes of incapacitation. Did they test for any of these? Did he have food poisoning? Was he suffering from fatigue? Did he have toxins in his system, e.g. from medication, or from contaminated cabin air? Was anyone else ill? etc etc.

[Saintsman]

So you're a flight simmer and you have been waiting all your life for a flight where one of the pilots becomes incapacitated and one of the cabin crew has a CPL!

How unlucky is that?

[Agaricus bisporus]

It took until post #18 before the first shred of common sense appeared on this thread.

Indeed, some here have suggested "PPL to be called to do the radios", "cabin crew to read the checklist" and "Make a PA to the pax for a qualified pilot"

Perhaps we could be entertained by those who have posted thus to expand on the CRM/flight safety implications of their suggestions...

[Willowfly]

Quote one post only!
"Willowfly, no he doesn't, if the capt does become (mentally) incapacitated the FO has no authority whatsoever to take control. He has to sit and watch a mentally unstable individual fly the aircraft into the sea while babbling about meeting god!!!!!!! Really, what do you think?????? :rolleyes:"

Thanks for your response but no need for rolling eyes. I asked a simple question as I didn't know the answer and I got a perfectly adequate response from other posters above. I would consider it a hard judgement call depending on the severity of the Captains state and wondered merely if it were acceptable for a FO to say - "sorry mate but you are acting odd and I don't think you are up to it - move over I am taking control".

[pilotmike]

So you're a flight simmer and you have been waiting all your life for a flight where one of the pilots becomes incapacitated and one of the cabin crew has a CPL!

How unlucky is that?
Very lucky for everyone concerned - especially the rest of the passengers who don't have delusions of grandure. She was infinitely more qualified to assist the remaining pilot in whatever tasks he asked her to, whilst he flew the aircraft perfectly competently himself.

Having some wide-eyed flightsim wannabe getting all excited about all the knobs, dials and switches is the very bottom of the list of 'assets' needed in the flight deck in such circumstances. What use would there be on the flight deck for one extra knob anyway!

[fireflybob]

Quote from today's Daily Telegraph:-

"The first officer began conversation which was rambling and disjointed in nature and not at all in character," the report said.

Sounds like one of my descent and approach briefings!

Seriously I hope he makes a full recovery. Statistics say, I believe, that at least one in five of us will suffer mental illness at some stage of our lives.

Well done to all the crew - pilot incapacitation is a serious issue and when it happens it's not as easy as many may think.

[FLCH]

Wasn't there a recent case (within the last year, I think) of a flight where one of the flight crew was incapacitated and the other one asked if there was someone with pilot experience to come and sit up front.

Yes llondel, there was such an incident on a COA 757, the pilot in the left seat was getting his first IOE when he suffered a heart attack and died during the climbout, the IOE instructor was very experienced and could have easily flown the aircraft by himself, but he choose to have someone else up front to help out. The pilot that passed away happened to be a friend of mine.

Great job by the AC flight.

[virgo]

Absolutely true story of a chap who'd agreed to allow a colleague's friend into the flight-deck for take-off (In the days when you could)
He suddenly remembered, as he was making the short taxi-ing out but couldn't find the bit of paper on which he'd scribbled the guy's name and wasn't sure whether it was this sector or the return one.

He asked the flight-attendant if she try to find him - not sure of his name but he's a flying instructor at Oxford and probably in a Club-Class seat .........and be quick, we'll be going in a couple of minutes !

PA from flight-attendant;
"Ladies and gentlemen, if there's a flying instructor on board would he make his way to the cockpit where the captain is waiting to take-off".

[one post only!]

Agaricus, While I do find the thought of an explanation of the thinking behind making a desperate PA for a ppl to come up and save the day to be comical, I have to confess to being surprised that you would be entertained by an explanation of getting CC to read a checklist out.

Well, in an attempt to amuse you, here goes! My company would expect you to give consideration to (if no suitable pilot is available) getting CC to read the checklist. It is written as such in the part A and the cabin crew manual. I know other airlines also have it detailed. This is also taught in the sim (or has been to me on a couple of occasions) where the expectation is that you would get a member of CC up to assist.
I say you are expected to consider because as you are probably aware the levels of intelligence can vary in the UK population somewhat. You are obviously going to want someone with common sense and brains to assist as they will appreciate to listen, keep quiet and read the cx list etc etc. Some crew would talk over calls, ask you about x-factor etc, some would observe, monitor and do a very good job. Some CC do have brains you know! They have been told during initial training how to do this and the procedure is detailed in the cabin crew manual, including how to read the checklist. If however, there is no suitable member of crew to assist you would carry on on your own. If there is a bright spark on board (and I bet there is) why not use them to help.

Do you not think this is actually beneficial to safety??? My company obviously thinks so!! I do personally! We often fly with the same people and can build up good friendships. I think it would be very stressful seeing a friend get taken seriously ill. I assume this could reduce my capacity a bit as I might be stressed. I think it might be nice to have someone to turn to and say “I did read back flight level 100? I did say heading 080 didn’t I?”
On a CRM front as current CC they should know when to talk, when not to etc. During CRM are we not taught we are all one big team? Are we not told to listen to the CC as they may see and hear things we have missed (Kegworth). Pick the right person, there are no CRM issues. Pick the right person and flight safety has increased. To disregard this option out of hand over looks a chance to improve flight safety in my opinion.

Hope I gave you a giggle with this!

p.s. willowfly, sorry my sarcasm often runs away with me (I realise now you are not in aviation). Lowest form of wit I know!! (see line above)

[niknak]

If the Captain did say "she was not out of place there" then I think that's the biggest compliment he could have paid her.
Too often we hear patronising comments from airline company representitives after such incidents, full of modern day PC crap and inane blather.

Well done both of them and I hope that the company persuade her to pursue a career up front (if that's what she wants).

[Hotel Tango]

How about considering an air traffic controller to assist? Familiarity with r/t procedures, phraseology, and ATC procedures in general (albeit depending where you are). Quite a few have PPL and even CPL experience - and I'm sure they could manage a check list.

[talent]

Apart from answering a declaration that you have/have not suffered a mental illness or seen a psychiatrist, does anyone know of any pilots asked to undergo a psychiatric examination?

Don't want to rain on the unfortunate Canadian FO's parade but there have been cases with fatal outcomes where a clearly mentally unstable pilot has crashed the plane, eg Egyptair and Silk Air, to name two.

[Todders]

All that stuffs for films and yes when i was i kid down the back i used to think... I've flowen flight sim wouldn't it be kinna cool if they had to ask me to go up and help because there was a prob with both pilots.


Fact is There are two pilots up there for a number of reasons this is one of them. It is practiced and infact a requirement of type rating to be able to perform single pilot ops in the event of incap.

As for CC helping out in my company all Seniors,pusers,no. 1's whatever you wanna call them are trained to get you plates out and to read the checklist for you good idea if you ask me.

The thought of asking over the PA is there a pilot on board sends shivers down my spine...

Sorry to all those who still fly in hope of being the hollywood hero.

[JW411]

Sub Orbital:

I cannot speak with any authority about the cabin staff that you fly with in your part of the world.

In my part of the world, I know of at least one young lady who is a CSD in her day job but who also instructs in the local flying club and who also flies a Cessna Citation on her days off. Now I would have her on my flight deck any day if I needed help.

I retired from serious aeroplanes two years ago. In those days, we used to teach the loadmasters/cabin staff how to secure or remove incapacitated
crew members from the flight deck and then to occupy the vacant seat and read checklists etc and operate the radio.

I absolutely would not, repeat not, invite a PPL holder up front to "help" me.

They would be so unfamiliar with the environment and the company SOPs that they would be a huge distraction to me and the situation and would need a huge amount of pre-briefing.

To what purpose?

I am perfectly capable of getting the thing on the ground on my own and so is my F/O and we practice just such an event every six months.

Please don't get me wrong, professional help I might welcome but amateur help I could do without.

[Pilot Pete]

How about considering an air traffic controller to assist? Familiarity with r/t procedures, phraseology, and ATC procedures in general (albeit depending where you are). Quite a few have PPL and even CPL experience - and I'm sure they could manage a check list. So, let's get this right. One pilot incap, other pilot flying by him(her)self. When it comes to do a checklist he keys the microphone, negotiates with ATC asking if they could assist by reading his checklist out to him(her). ATC, bemused, agree and ask for him(her) to read the checklist out over the RT so that the controller can write it down. Pilot obliges, including giving all the standard responses so that the ATCer gets the full picture.

Then, and only then, can the pilot ask the controller for the 'Approach Checklist', which the Air Traffic Controller now obliges with, AND what's more checks that the pilot gives the correct responses (because the pilot told him/her what they were earlier!):rolleyes:

A major advance in aviation safety when flying single crew I would say.:ugh: Would love to hear the 'Landing Checklist' at 4nm........

PP

[C172 Hawk XP]

How about considering an air traffic controller to assist?

Pete, you may have misunderstood ! I think that referred to an ATCO being of possible assistance if he happened to be a passenger, actually aboard the flight where a pilot was incapacitated !

[Pilot Pete]

:E:E:E:E:E

[Stop Stop Stop]

Perhaps the heading of this thread should be Stewardess promoted to First Officer instead of demoted

At the risk of having to explain the joke, which is always a dangerous thing, I think the original poster was referring to the attitude of certain airlines' Senior Cabin Attendants who genuinely believe that THEY are in charge of the aircraft and the Captain is merely there to get the plane from A to B! Ask any BA Cabin Services Director! :ok:

Anyway, CRM is all about using all the resources available to you and if the Captain felt that the situation warranted sitting a Cabin Attendant who had some flying experience in the seat to help with the checklist (which I suspect was what happened) then why not? How can you criticise that decision when the outcome was a good one?

As for allowing her to fly it, well it would be pretty naive to think that happened! Can you imagine spending the time to explain the differences between large jet and Piper Seneca. I personally find that there is little enough time on a short sector these days to manage to eat a crew meal and a passenger dessert, let alone to try and remember my instructional patter!

I think most pilots would cope quite happily- and whilst we are trained to get Doris in to read the checklist, I don't think that it is beyond the wit of man to do without if she was more suitably occupied with her duties elsewhere. After all, I bet every professional pilot knows the normal checklist by heart even though a checklist is always used.

[Flash2001]

In the Toronto Sun today:

"The Cabin attendant had a current commercial pilots licence and an expired licence to read the cockpit instruments." Or words to that effect.

See John 11:35

[Airbubba]

Apart from answering a declaration that you have/have not suffered a mental illness or seen a psychiatrist, does anyone know of any pilots asked to undergo a psychiatric examination?

Some U.S. airline interviews famously included a visit to the shrink. Years ago Delta had a guy named Janus who put you in a rocking chair. There was great debate over whether to rock at the evaluation. Sadly, Dr. Janus took his own life after passing judgment on the mental stability of thousands of applicants.

Huck and others probably know more about this but over at FedEx a Captain Barnhart was ordered to undergo a psych eval after some over the top comments on a union forum. He initially agreed to the eval but later decided not to go and he was fired.

See the second article here:

The Memphis Flyer: City Reporter (http://www.memphisflyer.com/backissues/issue418/cr418.htm)

FedEx had been criticized for not taking action on Auburn Calloway before his bloody hijack attempt. Calloway had exhibited bizzare behavior on more than one occasion according to interviews done after his attempt to crash a DC-10 into the afternoon MEM sort.

My colleagues who are packing heat as FFDO's are required to do a psych eval. Of course, some of them are paranoid that the new presidental administration will take away their personal firearms and they are stocking up on guns and ammo.

Years ago non-standard sexual behavior would get you in trouble. Now it is the other pilots who must learn to accomodate cross-dressing and gay marriage.

A diagnosed personality disorder will put your medical in jeopardy unless it is a gender related issue, in which case the company and the FAA seem to look the other way. Every airline seems to have one or two transgendered individuals these days who continue flying through most of the transition process. If you indicate that you are not comfortable working with the individual, you risk getting sent for an eval and sensitivity training yourself.

Don't want to rain on the unfortunate Canadian FO's parade but there have been cases with fatal outcomes where a clearly mentally unstable pilot has crashed the plane, eg Egyptair and Silk Air, to name two.

True and it raises the point that if you try to get help you are leaving a paper trail that could cause you to lose your medical certificate and job. If you don't get help, you may get sick to the point of endangering everyone.

[Hotel Tango]

;) Never gave it a thought the way you interpreted my post Pilot Pete. But now that you mention it..............:cool:

You might be surprised how many pilots think they can control air traffic from their FD :E:E:E

[Agaricus bisporus]

Flash - Bravo Zulu!

One post (and best it stays that way...)

Well, in an attempt to amuse you, here goes! My company would expect you to give consideration to (if no suitable pilot is available) getting CC to read the checklist. It is written as such in the part A and the cabin crew manual.

One post. "So it is written into Part A". Fantastic! But you fell into the trap of justifying why, by CRM and Human factors. In this you spectacularly bombed - crashed and burned. Where is your reason? Oh! It is in SOP!

Pal, I asked for a reason, not a pavlovian response. Stop and think for a second or two (most people would find that sufficient) why, just why, is it advantageous for a stranger unfamiliar with the entire concept of checklists to read those checklists in a potential emergency?

Think about it for a moment...

Why/how is it safer to introduce a stranger to SOPs into a safety critical event than to allow the supremely trained Professional to carry on alone undistracted?

Bolleaux!

The potential hazards of an unfamiliar person - totally untrained in "closing the loop" getting involved in critical checks with all the potential hazards of distraction. mistakes and lack of awarenes of what is required when there is a fully trained Professional to do this (albeit unmonitored) is several orders of magnitude worse thasn letting the Professional get on with it himself.

OnePost,

You need to think - that is, "think".

SOPs and Vol 1 quotes are a guide, not a limitation, and are not necessarily correct.

I think your response in support of blinkered, automatic unconsideded adherence to SOPs and the "manual" has amply provided the amusement I asked for....

Set brain in gear plese!

[ExSp33db1rd]

A visitor to the flt. deck of a RAF Belfast once commented on the width of the flight deck, the co-pilot remarked that it was so the Captain couldn't hit him.

I never flew 2-crew transports - thank goodness - I'd like a Flt. Eng. in my flight bag even today, but I imagine (?) all the essential controls can be reached by either pilot, I would suggest a major design fault if not ?

I always believed in telling the passengers the truth, no one gets more p*ssed off than a blatant whitewash and in this case, a quiet, straightforward explanation that your co-pilot had been taken sick, but that you ( and the autopilot ? ) could still cope, however a helping hand would be welcomed etc. would be quite acceptable, of course that would be a last resort after polling the cabin crew, many of which have some handling experience if not actually legally licensed.

If you don't want to do that, and really can manage on your own, tell ATC for a start and relieve some of the workload that they might otherwise expect of you.

Where's the drama - except in the minds of the idiot Press ? This situation was handled professionally, hardly merits all the discussion it has caused.

The chances of this situation being deliberately set up by a nutter, ( i.e. terrorist ) are so remote as to be ludicrous, and if you really believe that, then don't ever go near an aeroplane !

Just my ha'pennysworth. G'bye.

[C172 Hawk XP]

OK, I admit it . . . . . I had to look it up . . . . :sad:

John 11:35

= Jesus wept

[Final 3 Greens]

How about considering an air traffic controller to assist? Familiarity with r/t procedures, phraseology, and ATC procedures in general (albeit depending where you are). Quite a few have PPL and even CPL experience - and I'm sure they could manage a check list.

Nice thought, but...

I have PPL, 20 hours in full motion sim and several hundred take offs and landings in light aircraft.

God forgive this ever happened on a flight where I was pax, but if so, I'd infinitely prefer a CC member from the company, trained in their checklists and SOPs to assist the remaining pilot, rather than a PPL or ATCO.

If asked, I'd try my best, but having seen how an airliner is operated, I don't think I add a lot of value compared to a CC member trained to read the checklists and help with whatever other appropriate tasks the company might decide.

[ExSp33db1rd]

John 11:35

and Hebrews Ch13 v8

"..Jesus Christ, the same yesterday,today, and forever.. " ( or words to that effect - no Book to hand ! )

[silverstreak]

Dont go publicising this too much...

It might just give Willie :mad: at Birdseed the notion of adding it to the Ts & Cs of any newstart cabin crew at the airline...

[Hotel Tango]

F3G, there might be different levels of competency within a given group, but I wouldn't automatically rely on all CC ahead of an ATCO. I know and have known both ATCOs and even an ATCA who flew as F/O either on bizprops or bizjets. I'm not trying to turn this into an ATCO v CC debate, just making the point that failing all other better options I believe plenty of ATCOs would be able to assist quite adequately.

[Union Jack]

Luvly Jubbly said: "Are you lot for real?? :rolleyes: No pilot will ask over the PA whether there is another pilot on board.... And they would not need one." and Agaricus Bisporus said: "It took until post #18 before the first shred of commonsense appeared on this thread. Indeed, some here have suggested "PPL to be called to do the radios", "cabin crew to read the checklist" and "Make a PA to the pax for a qualified pilot". Perhaps we could be entertained by those who have posted thus to expand on the CRM/flight safety implications of their suggestions..."

But, without wishing to wind either of them up, especially in view of the sad circumstances, when Llondel said: "Wasn't there a recent case (within the last year, I think) of a flight where one of the flight crew was incapacitated and the other one asked if there was someone with pilot experience to come and sit up front. Said private pilot got to do the radio stuff while the PF did the rest. Opinion on here was that it was a good thing to have someone else at least vaguely qualified on the FD just because it's a good idea to have two people there." he was absolutely right in principle.

This is evidenced in some detail by http://tinyurl.com/6fmq5y from posts 26 to 33 and particularly post 32, regarding the death of the captain on his first flight in command of a Continental 757-300 in January 2007 . A further website quotes: "While a few flight attendants and passengers tended to the stricken pilot, the co-pilot [who was actually checking out the deceased captain on his transfer from 737 to 757 - my addition] took over as captain of the plane. He then asked over the intercom whether there were any pilots on board." and subsequently "There's nothing wrong with that," said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Roland Herwig, who confirmed Brown's role in the emergency landing. "The (acting) captain can take any action for the sake of safety."

Jack

[212man]

Thus far the assumption is of mental illness - is there not the possibility that these symptoms can result from physical ailments such as minor strokes and brain tumours?

[QSK?]

JW411:I absolutely would not, repeat not, invite a PPL holder up front to "help" me.Not even if the PPL holder had a MECIR, was a current ATCO familiar with the airspace procedures you are currently flying in and was also a qualified aviation meteorologist?

[AnthonyGA]

Much of the discussion here seems to take for granted that anyone put in the other seat will be doing the same things a pilot would do in that seat, but clearly, that isn't actually the case.

Airliners that normally have two pilots can be flown by one. Therefore, if one pilot is incapacitated, it is not necessary to replace him, and if one chooses to replace him, it is not necessary that the replacement be a pilot. All that's really needed from any substitute is the ability to accept and properly carry out instructions. Any intelligent person without a personality disorder can do that.

The idea of having a substitute with flight experience seems to presume that the substitute will actually be flying the aircraft at some point, but that is not a very rational assumption. The other pilot—the one who is not incapacitated and is fully qualified to fly the aircraft, even single-handed—will fly the airplane. The substitute will simply help with tasks that are not specific to aviation and can be handled by anyone, such as saying something on the radio, or marking something on a piece of paper, or moving a lever or pushing a button (when instructed). This substitute will not be taking the controls and wrestling the jet down to the ground with heart-stopping bravery. The other pilot will do that, if necessary.

So the discussion about whether or not to have a pilot, or sim pilot, or flight attendant in place of the ailing pilot is moot, as nothing that person will be called upon to do will be anything that any normal person cannot do, even without special training.

Indeed, you might want someone without training, because a person without training will not be tempted to take any troublesome initiatives of his own, and will presumably just follow instructions. A private pilot might overestimate his flying skills and knowledge, even though he has never been on the flight deck of an airliner in his life, and a sim pilot might be so agog at the experience that he cannot even do as he is told. Air traffic controllers might not be tempted to try to fly the aircraft, but at the same time their special knowledge would be of very little use, although they might speak in a steady voice (but even that isn't certain, as they'd be under a different and more personal kind of stress in the cockpit).

So just put any intelligent, level-headed, unemotional person in the other seat, ask him or her to follow instructions exactly, provide some reassurance, and complete the flight. Or just fly the aircraft on your own, without asking for any help at all, which is unlikely to increase the risk.

[Mungo Man]

So you're a flight simmer and you have been waiting all your life for a flight where one of the pilots becomes incapacitated and one of the cabin crew has a CPL!

A flight simmer would be the last person I would look to for help as they would be so keen to show their knowledge it would bound to be a distraction. What exactly would they be able to do that I can't?! I just don't think a simmer or random PPL would add to the synergy of the flight deck.

The cabin crew in my lot would be pretty useless too, yes, officially 'trained' to use the checklist but one recently thought we only stored fuel in one wing, and another had to ask how many engines out aircraft had..:ugh: Besides, in the heat of the moment they might just start literally 'reading' out the checklist verbatim, challenges AND responses... who knows what they'd do?

I am capable of operating the flap and gear myself, what you really miss as single crew is that situational overview the other pilot offers when you are flying.

Quite often we have company pilots positioning on board, now that would be a no-brainer - call them in.

[airborne_artist]

"There's nothing wrong with that," said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Roland Herwig, who confirmed Brown's role in the emergency landing. "The (acting) captain can take any action for the sake of safety."

And upsetting the passengers takes a distant second over ensuring a safe landing. If the acting Captain thinks he/she will do a better job with a PPL/sensible second pair of eyes in the other seat, then so be it.

It's perfectly possible that an experienced/recently retired professional flyer is in the cabin, and until you ask, you really don't know.

[dochealth]

Good point 212man.

There's a long list of causes of acute psychosis, including the ones you mention.

Apart from substances of abuse, it could be a metabolic cause such as diabetes or side-effect of medication.

A key point- not specified in AAIU report - is whether the FO was subsequently transferred to a general ward or whether he stayed in the psychiatric wing of the hospital....

[macker]

How about considering an air traffic controller to assist?Tell you what lads, I have every confidence in any one of you to fly the thing on your own.

Just leave me in peace reading a book in the cabin and don't get me involved in someone else's incident.

And as my part of the deal, I won't look for any assistance from the skies next time I have to drag some raving madman/woman kicking and screaming from a scope and wrestle them from the Centre (happens all the time, the slightest thing sets us off)

:}

[FlyMike]

I'm slightly surprised that none have raised this point yet, so please correct me if I'm mistaken but if a flight crew member is incapacitated for an unknown reason (at the time) then would it not make sense to have a minimally trained but bright cc member at least available in the other seat to be ready to assist as best as they can?

Suppose there were even a remote chance that the cause was environmental (food, etc.), the benefit of having them there may just outweigh the risk of being distracted. And besides, if it happened mid-atlantic then the remaining pilot would at least have a bit of time to assess their inteligence and brief them on what may be required of them. I don't think anyone doubts the ability of a trained flight crew member to fly the aircraft safely on their own, but perhaps it may help to cover one's bases should the situation deteriorate with any other irregular occurrence present itself either with the remaining crew or the aircraft.

Just a thought.

Mike

[Avman]

FlyMike, read the thread from the begining before posting.

[dfstrottersfan]

Many (many) moons ago I used to fly (SLF) Wick to Aberdeen. Seem to remember Air Ecosse training the stewardesses basic flying skills. When I asked was told that it was in case of emergency. These were small planes with one pilot ? Bandeirante ?

[overthewing]

Humble SLF here, but I would have thought it was basic common sense to have a second person in the cockpit in case the remaining pilot suddenly keels over with, say, a heart-attack.

It would make further sense to me if the 'second person' was able to a) open the secure cockpit door and b) operate comms well enough to report the crisis.

[nomorecatering]

It never ceases to amaze me at the attiudes that (some) pilots have of cabin crew. While there are ditzy flight attendants, theres also ones that are highly qualified.

A few I know personally have degrees, electrical engineerim, law, ecconomics, accounting, and 2 are god forbid, pilots too. With turbine time to boot.

[UP and Down Operator]

Hmm, funny discussion this one.
In my company manual it is clearly stated, that in case of pilot incapacitation, the only "non-crewmember" allowed to come and help will be a company pilot if such is travelling as passenger for whatever reason.
If not, then put one of the junior CC in the empty seat and let her/him read the checklist and do other bits you need done that they can do. (this still leaves the senior CC to do the important bits in the back)

Personally these are also the 2 only options I would consider anyway. The company pilot (with valid ID if I/or the CC don't know him already) or the CC as I know them already, and truly believe they would do whatever they can, the best they can, in order to help out and get us all back down in one piece. No vivid PA's needed to get hold of either of the two groups btw.

If you start to take whatever other pilot, sim-expert, ATCO, PPL or something else up front, then you have no idea about their personality, skills, intentions, knowledge, CRM skills, - or even real intentions with the visit in the front office. Potentially you can end up with a lot more problems than you had already before this person entered the FD.

It is really a no-brainer as I see it. Safety first, and that means NO "no=known people must enter the FD".
Who knows, it could be Bin-Ladens son with a ppl who comes and offers his "help" :=

Just my half penny worth, happy weekend to all :ok:

[Hotel Tango]

Who knows, it could be Bin-Ladens son with a ppl who comes and offers his "help"

Blimey, an incapacitated pilot and Bin-Ladens son on the same flight. More chance of winning the jackpot in the lottery! :}

I take your point, but some of the junior CC I've come across wouldn't have a clue and could easily be just as much if not more of a distraction. My contention is that an ATCO could at least take the r/t workload off of you, as well as read a checklist. Granted, you may not know him/her, but in all honesty, if you're working for a fairly large outfit, I doubt if you'd know much about the junior CC's "personality, skills, intentions, knowledge, and CRM skills" either. After all, how often do the same crew fly together in a year? And how often is the junior CC a newbie?

[FlyMike]

FlyMike, read the thread from the begining before posting.


Avman, I have done so (twice now to see what I may have missed the first time) and while I've seen some excellent points I haven't seen much consideration to the possibility of the other flight crew member also being incapacitated. And so what I'm saying is that having a cc member sitting in the seat would effectively also be to monitor the condition of the remaining half of the flight crew. I've seen posts advocating similar actions being taken, but perhaps for different reasons (which are then interpereted as allowing flight simmers to "fly the plane" by others!)

So Avman, I'm sorry if I'm still re-hashing a point that's already been discussed, and please do point me in the right direction (post # or summary) as I'm eager to know if there's any more dialogue on this.

Cheers,

Mike

[Pugilistic Animus]

See! I knew this thread would wind up this way:oh:

PA:ouch:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Blimey, an incapacitated pilot and Bin-Ladens son on the same flight. More chance of winning the jackpot in the lottery!

Absolutely !

There might be a situation where you really need a hand, would the capt. who was nearly sucked out of the flight deck window of a BAC 1-11 some years back and was only saved by 2 stewards hanging on to his ar*e, have refused to let passengers in to help him if they had been the only ones to hand, crying " get out, you're not allowed on the flt. deck to save my life "

Get real, deal with any situation in the best way YOU can at the time, I'd rather be alive to justify my actions to The Subsequent Court of Inquiry - than dead.

Time this thread was closed.

[ZAGORFLY]

A pilot is a pilot...

don't be silly and unveil the best kept secret: that in a unfortunate event like this anybody can fly a plane! just give he/her a clear radio contact with the ground and anybody would be able to perform and auto-land!!

I agree that a pilot is a pilot but..do not forget George at list here in this professional forum.

regards

ps : i do hope our F/O to recover quickly it takes a long time to reach that seat and a second to loose it .

[mickjoebill]

It would be a mistake to lead terrorists to believe that there is a two step approach to get onto the flight deck
1/ is to incapacitate pilot/s, (say by the poisin umbrella method)
2/ produce fake CPL and airline ID in response to call over the PA.

How many pilots consider that being intentionally poisoned is a "real" threat?


Mickjoebill

[ExSp33db1rd]

How many pilots consider that being intentionally poisoned is a "real" threat?


Most of us.

That's why we are supposed to pick a different choice from the menu provided by the airline kitchen for in-flight meals.:E

[diarmuid8]

Maybe I should know this but........
What are the requirements for a three person flight crew?
Distance? Time? a/c Type?

thanks

[merlinxx]

Sod it you lot, just give the Lady CPL holder here due, the Skipper with her assist did a bloody good job. What the heck would you do in that situ, have a CPL to assist, or a shagged out Co-Pilot?

Give the crew (after all Cabin Crew are part of the Crew!) their correct praise and don't keep taking the piss:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Merlinxx -Absolutely.

see # 83 Time this thread was closed.

[C172 Hawk XP]

Must of been something I ate........

Really surprised that PPRuNe's resident grammar expert, Rainboe, hasn't commented on that !

I can only guess that he MUST HAVE BEEN reading the thread too quickly to notice !

[ZAGORFLY]

There are many passengers with deep aviation knowledge (capability to understand and manage the autopilot ) that should be recognized at once in the loading manifesto by the Purser.
It should and extra safety net having more than a relief pilot on board.

Nowadays if you board a plane and play with your FMGS simulator on the Lap top they approach you like a potential terrorist.

In the case of Helios disaster is because the policy (close door) that all perished in a very easy and simple accident to be solved. If I ever will be in an aircraft that continue to climb after the oxygen mask are deployed I will certainly question hard and ASAP the purser asking her to open immediately that stupid armored door!

Airliner are not only restaurant with wings but machine that many of us can handle quite well.Pilot and not pilots, provided their ability at list to handle the radio and find "that" switch on the control to communicate to anybody in that frequency.

but nowadays in order to save lives we would be probably shoot down by a f16

blue skyes

[bunkrest]

As humble cc... in the company I work for we are trained that in the event of single pilot incapacitation the remaining pilot might want us in the empty seat to read check lists. The emphasis is on 'might' as in that unenviable position its up to the remaining flight crew to decide the best course of action. I certainly wouldn't question a captain's/ FO's decision to put a call out for say " an ID80/90 pax with ATPL" if he/she felt that this was the best option.

And addressing the query on decompression - after the Helios tragedy the cc drill has now changed so if the descent does not commence (after a specified period) then cc report to the flight deck to investigate.

[wiggy]

bunkrest :ok:, possibly because we might work for the same outfit.

Personally I ( and I think many others here) would see to it that

(a) The automatics were taking me where I want to go.

(b) The victim in the other seat was tended to.

(c) Declare an emergency, take advice from the medics by satphone and and consider landing at somewhere suitable ASAP.

(d) Ask for Cabin Crew to look for a Company pilot, or help with books, refreshment, empty water bottles :E, perhaps checklist reading ( and to keep an eye on my physical condition :ooh:).

(e) Land the aircraft.

Call me old fashioned but what I'm not going to do is invite a PPL/ Flight simmer or even an ATCer ( sorry guys) onto the Flight Deck and then open another whole whole can of worms over CRM/Tech/ATC knowledge......

[Bullethead]

Ladies and Gents,

Let's face it, it doesn't take two people to land an aeroplane of any sort. There are countless thousands of aircraft with only one seat ffs. One lands it and the other , if on a multi crew aeroplane , does all the ancilliary stuff. Airline crews fairly regularly practice, in a simulator, flying an approach and landing with the other crew member 'incapacitated', well we do anyway.

The practice pays off, around five years ago I was on a SYD-NRT sector in a B767, and the Captain was incapacitated with the symptoms of kidney stones. Medical advice was sought and he was directed to 'have nothing further to do with the operation of the aircraft'. I, being the F/O, now had the chance to log some command time. :} Well I took over anyhow and completed the flight to NRT in weather conditions which were right on ILS chart minima, at night in rain with a S/O who had never been to NRT. He was less than helpful because of his inexperience.

It all worked just fine, the approach and landing was completed, the aeroplane was parked and shut down, the ailing Captain was seen to by medical staff and off to the Truck the rest of us went. :ok:

The reason modern airliners have two sets of controls and require two pilots to operate them is not because they are almost impossibly difficult to operate but for the very reason that this thread exists, in case of pilot incapacitation and nothing else. If one pilot can't function fully then the other one takes over all the duties, for which they should be trained and more than capable.

Of course things would get a little more interesting if you also had a technical problem to deal with but that falls into the realm of 'multiple failures' which is generally not considered or trained for but sometimes does happen.

Regards,
BH.

[etrang]

If I ever will be in an aircraft that continue to climb after the oxygen mask are deployed I will certainly question hard and ASAP the purser asking her to open immediately that stupid armored door!


Yes indeed, too bad youweren't on that Helios flight.

[IGh]

This sort of tedious long-haul, all-NIGHTer, CRZ condition, has resulted in some interesting human-cases. “Incapacitation” ?? or maybe just a “normal” long-day???

Sometimes, in the past, things didn’t go as well -- as in this well managed Air Canada case. Maybe there are “housekeeping” tactics pilots employ, at night, in recognition of past human “distractions” and human errs.


Thinking back to 15Feb59, PanAm 115, with Capt Waldo Lynch out-of-seat, and out-of-cockpit: "Clipper 115" a B707, N712PA, en route from Paris-London-Gander to NY, made an uncontrolled descent of approximately 29000 feet. Following recovery aircraft flown to Gander. … extensive structural damage.

China Air 006, 19Feb85, B747SP lost control at FL410. Investigators attributed the initial upset to thrust asymmetry: "Airplane rolled to the right, nosed over, and entered and uncontrollable descent." Passing 19083' aircraft experienced 5.1 G's…. leveled at 9,500 feet… major structural damage,

AA901 / 29Jun94, 0023 eastern, MD-11, N1752K Night CRZ, PIC out-of-cockpit on rest break, Relief F/O in left seat, FA entered COCKPIT with BEVERAGES, FA routinely attempted to place the tray on the footrest of Observers Seat, but FO’s SEAT was back, IN THE WAY. Without F/O’s knowledge, left seater reached across and ACTIVATED electric motor SWITCH for FO’s Seat, MOVING it forwared... FO'S LEG-CROSSED ... contacted COLUMN PUSHING IT FORWARD…. AUTOPILOT tripped OFF…. FORWARD COLUMN INPUT … PITCHED DOWN. … INJURIES TO PASSENGERS AND CREW. [visitor-in-cockpit, FO’s seat-aft, FO’s leg-crossed heel-to-knee while occupying a pilot seat].

B767 / 31Oct99, NIGHT Crz, FL330, east bound, North Atlantic, one pilot out-of-seat, out-of-cockpit, PF/FO el-Batouty voices a common prayer mentioned after mundane surprises … At 0149:18, the CVR recorded the sound of an electric seat motor … 27 seconds later … the autopilot … disconnected…. very slight movement of both elevators … slight nose-down pitch change, which were recorded within the first second after autopilot disconnect…” ... FDR G trace, UPSET- dive … Capt returns to cockpit … Pull-up- steep climb ... then descent to impact. // Suspicious! Murdercide? Or maybe just an older FO-PF, at night, long CRZ, slightly disoriented, maybe not feeling his best.

[1279shp]

Poor beggar.

FA had an expired license to read instruments???:rolleyes:

@@

The co-pilot of an Air Canada Boeing 767 had a nervous breakdown midair and had to be restrained and sedated. A female flight attendant (with an expired license for reading airplane instruments) then helped the pilot make an emergency landing in Ireland.

That's what Irish investigators concluded today in their findings about a January incident involving an Air Canada Boeing 767, the AP says.

"The flight attendant provided useful assistance to the commander, who remarked in a statement to the investigation that she was 'not out of place' while occupying the right-hand seat," said the report by the Air Accident Investigation Unit. None of the crew members was identified.

The jet was headed from Toronto to London with 146 passengers and nine other crew members.

The 58-year-old co-pilot was a licensed veteran with more than 6,500 hours' flying time, about half on board Boeing 767s, and had recently passed a medical examination.

"He was swearing and asking for God and very distressed. He basically said he wanted to talk to God," a passenger told the BBC after the plane landed.

The co-pilot was hospitalized for 11 days in Irish mental wards before being flown by air ambulance back to Canada. His illness was not revealed.

Full report here: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/11139-0.pdf

[1279shp]

Subtle incapacitation of an Air Canada Boeing 767-300 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/boeing%20767.html) first officer during a transatlantic flight led the captain to divert the aircraft to Shannon, Ireland, landing with the assistance of a flight attendant who held a commercial pilot licence.

The 28 January 2008 incident is described as "serious" in an Irish Report.

It says the captain's awareness that all was not well began pre-flight when the co-pilot, who had positioned into Toronto Pearson Airport from Montreal as a passenger, arrived with little time to spare and seemed "quite harried".

The captain told the co-pilot to meet him at the aircraft, assuring him that all flight preparations were complete. After the flight left on time and climbed to flight level 360 the captain became increasingly worried about the co-pilot's condition and behaviour, which was out-of-character.

More than once the co-pilot re-entered the cockpit using non-standard security procedures, and eventually began to speak in an unco-ordinated way, eventually becoming "belligerent and unco-operative", and failing to fasten his harness on returning to his seat.

The captain called for the assistance of the cabin crew to remove the pilot from his seat, identified two doctors on board who attended to him and, in the absence of any pilots among the passengers, enlisted the help of the CPL-qualified flight attendant.

Once in VHF radio contact with Shanwick Oceanic, the captain made a 'pan' call and requested diversion to Shannon, where the weather was good compared with the aircraft's destination, London Heathrow. The aircraft landed safely.

Medical staff met the co-pilot who was hospitallised for 11 days before being returned to Canada on a medevac flight, where his treatment continued.

The AAIU report does not describe the medical diagnosis, but lists Transport Canada advice about pilot subtle incapacitation for which, it says, the most common causes include hypoxia, hypoglycaemia, extreme fatigue, alcohol or toxic substances, and which can involve neurological causes like stroke or a brain tumour.

Irish investigators have not made any recommendations

[cwatters]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/351636-stewardess-demoted-first-officer.html

[Ship 741]

Ref: "15Feb59, PanAm 115, with Capt Waldo Lynch out-of-seat, and out-of-cockpit: "Clipper 115" a B707, N712PA, en route from Paris-London-Gander to NY, made an uncontrolled descent of approximately 29000 feet. Following recovery aircraft flown to Gander. … extensive structural damage."

I asked an old friend who was a F/E at PAA for many years if he recalled the incident and he provided the following information:

"Waldo was out of the cockpit "Glad Handing" all the guests aboard. Copilot didn't have his seat belt fastened, Flight Engineer was George Sinsky (passed away earlier this year).

Aircraft had gradually accelerated to a higher mach speed, when suddenly it pitched down and really accelerated. Co-pilot closed the throttles.

Copilot tried to pull back the yoke, resulted in just lifting him outof the seat. George tried wrapping his arms around the copilot and hold him, result was negative. Altimeter was spinning fast and with rate of climb pegged-out at 6,000 fpm down. Aircraft started to buffet.

George rotated his seat and got his seat belt off and slipped out of his seat to the floor. He moved forward on his knees and straddeled the center pedestal ,where he released the stab trim handles and started cranking nose up.

The aircraft started to pull-up with resultant high "G" forces and turned slightly.

Waldo was on his knees and crawling towards the cockpit. All the stuff that had floated to the cabin ceiling started to come down and strike folks. Some passengers that didn't have their seat belts on also came down. Waldo finally got to the cockpit and resumed flying the airplane which was still difficult to control. They declared a Mayday and gradually turned the airplane back towards YQX. Escorts soon met Clipper 115 and escorted them to YQX.

After arrival at YQX they saw the extensive damage to the airplane. The entire empenage was displaced to the left. Boing builds strong structures! Passengers that were injured were taken to the hospital and others accomadated in local hotels till the relief airplane arrived next day.

Ultimately, it was determined that the airplane went into a "Mach Tuck". Credit for saving the flight went to Waldo, the skipper.

George told me what had really happened when I met him some time later. I recently wrote the Editor of the "Clipper" magazine recently and Flight Engineer George Sinsky's version was published.

George was one gentleman and a great Flight Engineer."

Sounds like quite an exciting incident, to say the least! At any rate, not being of that generation, I now see why there was so much anxiety when the two crew airplanes came into service.

[rmac]

Reading through this thread reminds me of another thread recently about PPL's and commercial jets.

Once again the same undertone escapes and it is evident that many of you professional pilots are pretty precious individuals considering that except for the first and last 500ft, it is mainly pushing buttons to command automatics these days !

For my money I consider that the most important commodity in aviation is the ability to exercise good judgement. It is my experience that a 1000hr multi engine, instrument rated CPL (or PPL if they don't fly for money and want to avoid more paperwork than absolutely necessary), who flies regularly on the airways with exactly the same procedures as a commercial jet but with a lot more disadvantages in lack of automatics and limited weather capability, while acting as PIC, co-pilot and FE (old engines you know!) is probably in a pretty good position to help the PF with the following.

1. Communication with ATC
2. reference to, preparation of charts and mutual briefing (read double checking) of arrival and approach procedures and frequencies.
3. Reading of checklists.
4. Flagging up to the PF anything that doesn't look right and might be worth a quick mention just to be sure.

Related to point four, on a personal basis, when jump seats could be occupied by non employees, a gently placed question saved a BA777 captain friend of mine from taxying his nosewheel in to some newly laid wet concrete at a relatively remote airport which I happened to know quite well and in that case there were two well rested and capable pilots, not one.

The mantra would seem to be redundancy, use of resources and good judgement. Maybe in another case it wouldn't be wet concrete to taxi in to but rather a mountain that was about to be flown in to, or an unusual attitude at low level that had occured while distracted but of couse airline pilots never do that, do they, and the principles of flight are so vastly different once you get your hands on that big shiny automatic jet :hmm:

I think that the Captain of this flight should be applauded for excellent judgement, impeccable use of common sense and more importantly a healthy dose of humility. I wish all airline pilots that I trust my life and that of my family to, would conform to that standard, but unhappily, as is evidenty in these forums, I wouldn't trust some of you with the remote control to my TV set, the problem is, one never knows for sure who is up front in charge of the jet :eek:

[UP and Down Operator]

rmac: The only thing i can agree with you about is, that the canadian captain whose actions started this tread, did a very good job.

Oh yes, and if your 777 friend saved the whole aircraft only because of you, then maybe him and his f/o should wait going to work, until they have enough capacity to taxi safely on the tarmac :sad:

The rest you write is utter nonsenes.

Why do non-pilots always think they know all about how to fly planes??? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Back to the flight-sim with you :yuk:

[rmac]

Now there you go with your precious nonsense UP and Down:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: (there I can click more heads banging than you can, how clever of me).

I regularly fly single pilot IMC, airways and approaches to minimums. Aside from actually operating the particular aircraft type please let me know what is different in the process, maybe I use a different ILS or VOR/DME approach or speak to a different controller, which could be a bit embarassing when sandwiched between two 737's and being forced to rush my approach with a vector to intercept right on top of the FAF, to make way for my better automated, multi crewed, faster friends, please tell me and try using convincing argument rather than vitriol.

Your post does however rather prove my point. You clearly have neither judgement nor humility, god help you on the day that it is needed.

For your greater edification, the wet concrete was badly signed but I happen to read Russian, and understand English when spoken (yelled) by a harrassed Russian speaking controller, which neither of the crew could reasonably be expected to do. So a useful extra resource. No "saved aircraft" but a lot of saved embarrassment and saved significant extra expense for the airline.

[UP and Down Operator]

Your post does however rather prove my point. You clearly have neither judgement nor humility, god help you on the day that it is needed.


Without wanting to tell you things you have no interest in, then to your own "humble" information i can inform that I, just like many many other professionel pilots, started flying single pilot on everything from piston to complicated multi-engine a/c in commersial operations all over the world, from the tropics to the arctics..... and yes once again... single pilot, before i started with the airlines in multicrew operations.

Also therefor i know what the difference is between airline flying and GA, and the gap is big, even though the experience gained by GA is generally really good. Just a pity that single pilots often works better alone, hence = not a good idea to take up front when we are busy.... sorry!!

A person with your attitude is the kind of person i would avoid on the flightdeck at any time during an emergency, because your ego seems much greater than your knowledge, and that can potentially create substancial amounts of extra negative work to a guy/girl up front after a pilot incap.

A company pilot positioning or a cabincrew to help out is the most safe as i see it. And true, modern airliners can fly them self if not too many technical failures, so it's not really the big problem to land it singlepilot if need be, ...... so still no need for eager hotshots wanting to have a go at it!!!

Might be time to close this one!!!

[birrddog]

There are three parts to this thread, all with simple answers, why the need to be contentious is beyond me. (MNSHO is that the "questions" being answered are not clear in several of the answers/posts)... Nothing wrong with good old fashioned debate or even a question about what you would or should do in this situation, just be clear.

1. Is it appropriate for a pilot decide to land a 2 crew commercial jet on their own?
2. In this occurence, did the PIC (in this case the captain) make an appropriate decision to have a "third party" (non cockpit crew) assist him to safely land the aircraft?
3. Was the thread title appropriate?

Suggested answers below (and I don't think my non-ATPL status should affect your appreciation of my answers - see below), only logic should, which is not the sole purview of commercial pilots (and neither are the tenants of CRM))

1. Dave Sanders, Captain of Fedex Flight 705 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FedEx_Flight_705) managed to land the aircraft after he had his head bashed in with a hammer; I think this (as well a lot of the other posts in this thread) proves that this is viable, leading us to question 2.

2. The aircraft landed safely, without incident (the conversations on this thread, and the co-pilots situation aside).

In all the CRM discussions being banded about on this thread, PIC gets to decide what is an emergency situations (he/she will no doubt need to back it up later on the ground), and once in such situation what calls to make to ensure the safety of aircraft, crew, passengers, cargo, daisy the cow minding her own business on the ground, and anyone/thing else left out at risk in no particular order).

In this case, it was decided to use the assistance of a CPL qualified crew member, which hopefully we can all agree worked out well, with the exception of the panic it caused PPRune pilots who's sensitivities were injured in the ensuing aftermath of 20/20 hindsight.

3. My summation is that it was an attempt at humor, with an aim of provoking attention. By the amount of responses and views one would argue it was a succesful attempt. (I personally quite appreciated it! ;))

Now I trust we could get back to some good old fashioned gossip^H^H^H^Hrumours and news (and a bit of humorous banter in between):)

And for those upset by my (and other posters in this thread) none ATPL status, I didn't realize that Rumours and News or posting on pprune were certification categories in the ATPL exams. :ugh:

[PJ2]

Great post, birddog;

From a captain's pov, if I may respond:

1. Is it appropriate for a pilot decide to land a 2 crew commercial jet on their own?

The captain is the final authority on the flight s/he can decide and do as s/he needs to conduct the flight with the maximum of safety under the circumstances. S/he has the unbridled right to command whatever resources are required, the right to expect that orders will be followed and the right to defend those decisions when the emergency is over. In direct answer to your question, Yes, it is entirely appropriate and I would have done the same.

2. In this occurence, did the PIC (in this case the captain) make an appropriate decision to have a "third party" (non cockpit crew) assist him to safely land the aircraft?

See above. Yes, the decision was appropriate. I have done it in a similar circumstance but in my case the "third party" was the Relief Pilot on duty. They are not licensed to land the aircraft or sit in the front seats below cruise altitude but in the circumstances I faced, there was no one better qualified. It was a non-event. Failing that good luck, I would have conducted the balance of the flight precisely as this captain did. It was text-book and should be an example for all crews on how it's done in such an emergency.

3. Was the thread title appropriate?

Odd question given the first two - it deals with industrial relations matters, not flight safety matters and the two should never mix. Nevertheless it deserves at least a clarifying answer:

Although veterans in their own right, new First Officers hired on these days with major carriers will earn approximately $35,000 year if they're fortunate. "New" captains promoted on a major carrier's junior equipment, (sometimes they're promoted right at hiring - they're still veterans!), are paid about $65k/year.

Comparatively speaking, graduate nurses with no experience can expect a starting wage of between $45k and $65k/year as can teachers in some regions.

Think about two things when you climb on board a commuter jet next time: The guys up front combined, aren't earning enough to live in many of the large cities crews are based in, and raise a family - not even today - without going into debt. The spouse has to work. Second, the guys probably have short layovers, (9 hours off-duty (10.5hrs from in-to-out) is common) and would probably be flying at least a four-leg, 13hr day, almost always through the same weather fronts. East coast work is challenging to say the least.

If you sense that there is more to this than an "industrial approach" you're right - it's flight safety work as it relates to "who will come for $35000 bucks a year", and what drives the beancounters mad - duty days and crew fatigue. Both these points are controversial, the first more than the second, and do require in-depth, patient and knowledgable discussion. Please be aware that I have put these issues in pithy terms intentionally because they are industry hot-buttons within, and without.

Hope this helps!
PJ2

[Jofm5]

Apologies to side step the topic

As SLF I was surprised at the figures you were quoting for first officer etc. I did a search and came up with Aviation Career Salary Ranges (http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/index.asp)

Are CC really paid better than pilots - it makes no sense to me !

Sitting myself back on the shelf now...

[pilotmike]

except for the first and last 500ft, it is mainly pushing buttons to command automatics these days !

Aah! But knowing which button to press is everything! It reminds me of the tale of the computer expert who was called out to fix the Government's big computer, which was costing £millions each day it wasn't working.

After just 1 hour, he marked a component with a chalk 'X', and told them to replace that component. He also left an invoice which read:

"1 chalk 'X' £50,000"

They replaced the marked component and the computer sprang back into action, but nevertheless, they were outraged at the cost of having just one chalk 'X' put on a component. So they told the expert that the invoice was outrageous and that he'd have to modify the invoice where the chalk 'X' was only £500. He gladly agreed to do so for them. Next day, they received a new replacement invoice:

"1 chalk 'X' £500
Knowing where to put it £49,500"

[satos]

luvly jubbly (http://www.pprune.org/members/8731-luvly-jubbly)




Bet he didn't let her touch anything...... Just read the checklist:ugh: (http://www.pprune.org/members/8731-luvly-jubbly)


Yeah,just like the missus reading the street directory.

[PJ2]

Jofm5;
As SLF I was surprised at the figures you were quoting for first officer etc. I did a search and came up with Aviation Career Salary Ranges (http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/index.asp)

Are CC really paid better than pilots - it makes no sense to me !
The "Salary Ranges" list you found is pretty accurate in my experience. There are variations of course, according to collective agreements and so on. You can see that the potential for senior pilots is high but it takes a long time to get there. My own highest years were years 30 - 35. It took 20 years to break 100k/year.

My point is, not only are pilots paid far less for their work than other careers but the salary ranges will not attract "the best and brightest" who will have, (if they're that smart), looked at aviation-as-career and decided "no thanks" after taking a look at how pilots are treated. Mind you, healthcare workers and teachers are also being treated badly in terms of hours-in for pay-received..."more for less" is the mantra, but the starting salaries are higher.

Pilots are, in general, paid better than CC. There was a move afoot a while back at one airline in which F/A's were demanding equal pay with pilots because theirs was a "safety job" as well. A couple of responses were possible...one being the title of this thread, another was the usual comparison of training, standards etc. While the job is important and I have always had respect for those highly-trained people who are responsible for getting my passengers off an airplane in a hurry, it takes about six weeks from off-the-street to "qualified" for an F/A and often, in strikes, (non-F/A) management will step in with a few days' "training" to replace striking workers, in which case all slogans regarding safety-first go right out the window and become "safety first, except when....".

Enough thread drift. Cheers!

[nuclear weapon]

I think those salaries quoted in the posted link are fairly accurate and depending on the prevailing exchange rates in some countries its even higher.