John Farley's new book

[yakker]

I'm glad John has succumbed at last and written the book we asked for. I have pre-ordered mine for delivery mid-December.

FLYER Shop - A View from the Hover (paperback) (http://www.flyer.co.uk/shop/product.php?product=79)

Sales pitch from Flyer web site:

Pre-order John Farley's fantastic new book A View from the Hover: My Life in Aviation which will be published shortly by FLYER Books.

Packed full of lively accounts of John's days as a test pilot (for the Harrier and many other types) and rounded off with some great insights into how to improve your flying, this is a book which nobody who has any interest in flying or the history of aviation can afford to miss.

Get your copy ordered now (my sales pitch).

[Genghis the Engineer]

John kept that quiet!

Well done John for writing it, and everybody else for nagging him to do so.

My order for a copy will be in shortly.

G

[BOAC]

There you go! "What did you want for Xmas?" said Mrs B - now I know!

[Proof Reader]

Hope he had a good proof reader! Not of course that he would need that.

Well done, John.

[green granite]

It's cheaper from that well known river site. :E

[aviate1138]

Paid for it today - worth every penny.......

Sat in the 2 seater at Brooklands the other day........ remembering JF at Farnborough many years before ...... as they say these days - Respect! :rolleyes:

[Dr Illitout]

Naa, I'm going to wait for the film!!;)
(It's on order)

Rgds Dr I

[skiingman]

anyone know if this will be imported to north america? our version of the river site doesn't have any planned release date...

[Genghis the Engineer]

anyone know if this will be imported to north america? our version of the river site doesn't have any planned release date...

I think that if you order from the UK site, although they'll charge you extra, they'll do deliveries outside the UK.

That said, I suspect strongly you might be better off ordering from the Flyer site linked from Yakker's post. I gather from conversations with another UIK based aviation publisher recently that RiverSite will list books from publishers who don't wish to do business with them direct (i.e. cut the wholesale prices), then source them via standard catalogues - slowing the whole process up considerably.

G

[skiingman]

thanks: tried to add the book to my cart at the Flyer site but when selecting "rest of the world" it wouldn't let me. perhaps I'll phone them. all else failing I'll find another UK source that will ship across the pond. Thanks for the help.

[rmac]

I'm sure that I have read a book which John has written some time ago. can anyone enlighten me and remind me of the title of that one. Thanks

[IanSeager]

skiingman

If you PM me with your email address I'll pass it on to the office (I'm away for a couple of days). I'll make sure they email you with any postage costs etc.

Brgds

Ian

[stilton]

Amazon.co.uk: low prices in Electronics, Books, Music, DVDs & more (http://www.amazon.co.uk) works really well for any books you want to order / preorder from the UK SkiingMan, quick service and reasonable shipping costs for books you would never find stateside.

I use them all the time and have been very happy with their service.

John Farley's book is preordered from them as we speak.

[christn]

Might it be possible to arrange signed copies of the new book to be made available here (similarly to the TSR2 print) priced to include a donation to an appropriate charity?

[IanSeager]

Amazon.co.uk: low prices in Electronics, Books, Music, DVDs & more works really well for any books you want to order / preorder from the UK SkiingMan, quick service and reasonable shipping costs for books you would never find stateside.

I use them all the time and have been very happy with their service.

John Farley's book is preordered from them as we speak.

That is interesting we (the publishers of the book) have not been in contact with Amazon, and they haven't called us either.

Might it be possible to arrange signed copies of the new book to be made available here (similarly to the TSR2 print) priced to include a donation to an appropriate charity?

I would have no problem doing that and I'm sure that John would be happy to sign them. I don't want to breach any forum rules, so if a mod would like to pm me, we could discuss to see how this would be possible without crossing any lines.

Brgds

Ian

[stilton]

I don't know how Amazon sources their copy's.

Living in the States I find them to be invaluable for books unavailable or unheard of here.

[IanSeager]

I don't know how Amazon sources their copy's.

Living in the States I find them to be invaluable for books unavailable or unheard of here.

I believe it to be through a wholesaler, at least for the UK, I assume they have some kind of internal system. I mentioned it only because as yet we've heard nothing and all of the books are in boxes about 15' away from where I'm typing this.

Best regards

Ian

[Fitter2]

Amazon use an independant resource, Neilsen Book Data, for any book not in their 'best seller' stock list, so it appears they have everything. They then, because of their buying power, beat the supplier down to low margins. If they can't, the book is effectively blacklisted on the site (the Amazon search engine 'cannot find it').

Amazon is convenient, but please support proper publishers where possible (especially in aviation where sales are relatively low), so we get more books like JFs.

I have e-mailed my son with the Flyer web page, e-mail headed 'Christmas is coming'.

[Genghis the Engineer]

[SIZE=2]Amazon use an independant resource, Neilsen Book Data, for any book not in their 'best seller' stock list, so it appears they have everything. They then, because of their buying power, beat the supplier down to low margins. If they can't, the book is effectively blacklisted on the site (the Amazon search engine 'cannot

I wrote a flying book recently, published by AFE - Amazon list it, and I understand that this is the arrangement by which they do so for mine. I gather from Jeremy Pratt (MD of AFE) that this annoys small publishers a lot - hence I'd agree with Fitter2 completely. Buy things like aviation books from the publisher or a bookshop actually stocking it where you can - it helps keep them in business, which we probably all want more than 50p off a book cover price.

G

[green granite]

I'm told that the one who must be obeyed ordered my copy, from the Flyer site, this afternoon. :ok:

[stilton]

If you have the luxury of buying the book you want locally, by all means 'support your local bookseller'

Bit silly to pontificate on the virtues of such when some of us overseas have no choice.

[Genghis the Engineer]

No, but you still have the choice of which online retailer presumably.

G

[ctudge]

Hi All,
Anybody know how I can get hold of a copy out here in Aus? I worked on the Sea Harrier at Boscombe Down back in the early 80s and would love to read John's story.
Regards,
Clive Tudge

[aces low]

How about some signings Up North, John?

[Double Zero]

John is doing a signing at the Farnborough FAST museum tomorrow - Tuesday 9th - 14:00 to 17:00.

I hope you don't mind me mentioning this John !

I am in no way financially or otherwise related to J.F. or his publishers ( I understand Seagers are organising this one ) except that I had the honour to work with and for John at Dunsfold - a very tough act to follow as I've let more than one 'boss' know !

I am not a pilot, technical photographer.

Sorry about the late notice, my P.C. finally croaked - a phone call first might be a good idea for anyone travelling far but Seagers seem very friendly - self, Father & Uncle are all going, we all worked for J.F !

D.Z.

[MrBernoulli]

A lot of 'discussion' here on the merits or otherwise of various sources for books. Here is a place I use fairly often:

AbeBooks Official Site - New & Secondhand Books, New & Used Textbooks, Rare & Out of Print Books (http://www.abebooks.co.uk)

Whilst it may not be relevant to John Farley's new book, I don't doubt that some of you will find it useful for other rarer and unusual stuff.

It is a portal for all sorts of book suppliers and is often the only place I can find out-of-print or similar books. I guess it works in a similar way to the 'Available from these sellers' link when Amazon perhaps don't have the item you want. The great thing is it includes loads of small dealers, all over the world, and whilst the focus is probably on second-hand books there are many new ones as well. And the new ones have often disappeared from the larger retailers, so you have a chance to get a copy.

I used the site to track down a very good second-hand copy of an out-of-print book (that had only first been published in 2001!) in a bookshop in California! The crazy thing is that this hard-cover book, with P&P, came to half of what some UK dealers wanted for their copies of the second-hand soft-cover version! I also had another book shop in Washington offer to go through their several copies of a book I was after, and put together the best dust-cover with the best hard-cover book and send it to me at no extra charge. So, you can get some really personal service and help support these dealers.

If you are UK based, like me, you may wish to tick the " UK First" box in the search requester on this site - that will put available UK-based sales at the top of the search results. As I have indicated above though, sometimes the best deals are not necessarily the ones closest to home.

[On Glide]

Genghis, what was the title of your book?

My copy of JF's came a few days ago, it's a great book.

OG

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well that would be one way of losing what little anonymity I have left!

Seriously - check your PMs.

G

[yakker]

Well I have read the book, and enjoyed it. As I am exRAE and was involved with the Harrier development and Hermes trials it was good to read about the good old days. As a PPL John has certainly provoked some thinking about my own flying. Thanks John, when is the sequel?

[Proof Reader]

Yakker, you asked John about a sequel. What topics do you/does anyone think he hasn't covered in this one?

[FAStoat]

I seem to remember a year from the time the last "Tooms" went back to the crabs ,?79,the 2 Seat Harrier G-VTOL,driven by one John Farley,together with a Kestrel with Harrier Hard Points,and a GR1 with a Sea Harrier Radar nose,were the some total of the then Fast Jet FAA establishment,which formed 799 Squadron.JF must have been flying all day and everyday Old Salts giving experience of things to come!I dont know how many trips "Jock Gunning" got!!!!!!!The 2 Seater was only on loan from Dunsfold,as there was nothing else available!!Defence cuts never change.

[laimtoh]

Hello all, first post for me here; vaguely on topic too!

I missed one of John Farley's lectures earlier this year, and would really like to attend one soon. Does anyone know what lectures he'll be making this coming year?

(I found out one takes place in April but it's at Lossiemouth which is a bit too far from Bournemouth to travel for one lecture! It's listed here: RAeS Conference and Events Department - Lectures (http://www.raes.org.uk/conference/lectbranches.html))

Phil.

[paulc]

Phil,

John is giving a lecture to the Gosport Aviation Society on 21st April 09. The Society meet at Stubbington Snooker Club in Stubbington, Hants and is easy to find from M27 Junction 9.

Picked up a signed copy of his new book last evening at the above society meeting.

[ARXW]

Before proceeding with the main question I'd like to ask why is John Farley's book not quite available at amazon.co.uk. It says it's out of stock which I thought it's a bit odd for a brand new book.

Had the pleasure of attending a lecture as a mechanical engineering student at the RAeS in about 1997-8 I believe by John Farley with a topic on VSTOL and vectored thrust.

Anyway my main question to Mr Farley is regarding 'the Hooligan' as detailed in Sharkey Ward's book on the SHAR in the Falklands. I believe he was Lt Cdr David Poole. I've always found the chapter on flying Phantom in Ward's book very interesting. At one point he says that when he was the senior pilot of 892Sqn Dave Poole returned to the squadron after his ETPS course (apparently that was in the early '70's) and he was able to beat Ward soundly in a fully developed slow speed scissors. Ward claims that Poole learned the tricks at ETPS. Was there an F-4K airframe at the time where one could experiment with slow speed maneouvring or was this just Poole's ability which Ward confused for ETPS trickery?:) Given his disdain for test pilots I guess that the lesson from ETPS (if indeed Poole learned the tricks there) served the frontline well since Ward then instituted a low level ACM programme with these lessons being practised regularly. I've searched around and found an FG1 airframe (XT597?) with the A&AEE at Boscombe Down. Is that the aircraft in question?

Also wasn't the same pilot (Poole) involved in a SHAR crash in the middle of the Falklands war while testing it back in Britain?

[mcdhu]

I'm trying to find it. Anyone got the ISBN number please?

Cheers,
mcdhu

[IanSeager]

Before proceeding with the main question I'd like to ask why is John Farley's book not quite available at amazon.co.uk. It says it's out of stock which I thought it's a bit odd for a brand new book.

I'm trying not to break any PPRuNe advertising rules here, but would like to be as helpful as possible without crossing any lines. We published the book and it then appeared on the Amazon site. So far Amazon has not been in contact, and we haven't sold any copies to any wholesalers. I have no idea how Amazon plan to get their copies. I assume that they'll build up a number of orders and then ask for a hefty discount.

If anyone wants to know where to buy it in the meantime pls PM me.

Best regards

Ian

[BOAC]

Mine arrived from 'Flyer' - very promptly too. well done,. Waiting for 25/12 now.......................SWIMBO has locked it away.:{

[mcdhu]

Yup, I've just ordered mine from The Flyer - hope it comes before 25/12!!

Cheers all,
mcdhu

[green granite]

SWIMBO has locked it away.

Mine too. http://209.85.48.8/1889/52/emo/saddy.gif

[BOAC]

mcdhu - every chance! Email ack same day and dispatched evening of next, arrived next day. Excellent service, Flyer!

[laimtoh]

QUOTE: John is giving a lecture to the Gosport Aviation Society on 21st April 09. The Society meet at Stubbington Snooker Club in Stubbington, Hants and is easy to find from M27 Junction 9.

Thanks Paul, that's a much nearer venue. Do I need to reserve a place there or can I just turn up?
Is there a link with any more info, in case it's cancelled or amended, please?

Phil.

[stilton]

Ordered my copy from Amazon uk and just got a notice that I would have to wait until the middle of january for delivery.

[paulc]

Phil,

the group do not have a website as such but I am in regular contact with their meetings organiser who keeps me informed. If you join the group you get a regular newsletter which gives details of their speakers etc and they do get some very good ones. If you would like to let me have your email address I will sent you a copy of the latest one which has details of who to contact.

[Doctor Cruces]

I ordered and paid for a signed hardback on Wednesday, £35.45 delivered.

Service wonderful as it arrived today, unfortunately it arrived as an unsigned softback at a price difference of about 13 quid. Confirmed with bank that full amount paid out.

A shame as it was for a Christmas gift (OK for me I freely admit.)

I'm awaiting their response to my very polite e-mail as they can't be got today by phone.

Will keep you advised.

Doc C


:ugh:

[IanSeager]

Doc

Sorry about that problem, have no idea what happened. Am back in the office on Monday and will do whatever I can to get you the correct book by Xmas.

Best regards

Ian

[mcdhu]

Ordered mine on Wed night via the 'Flyer' website and it appeared this morning. Great service!

Unfortunately, Mrs mcdhu nicked it for the Santa ritual!

Cheers mcdhu

[Doctor Cruces]

Thanks Ian, really appreciated.

Doc C
:)

[Doctor Cruces]

Good service from Flyer shop, they're sending me a replacement by special delivery today and a prepaid envelope to send the other one back.

Thanks guys.

Doc C


:):)

[BOAC]

Huzzah! SWMBO finally released it to F C and I started reading last night. What a start to an RAF flying career, arranging your own posting to a Hunter squadron! I like it:) - if only.......:{

Mrs B has just told me she is in the middle of a sequel called 'A View from the Hoover'.:uhoh:

[Jucky]

Just finished the book. I have to say it was an excellent read and I highly recommend it. Well worth the wait.:ok:


Regards,

Jucky

[Lower Hangar]

My son got me a signed hardback after some heavy hints in early December - I'm about 1/3rd the way through - really good stuff

[green granite]

A very good read indeed, Thanks John.

[mcdhu]

John gives a nice and simple exposition on climb speeds for jet ac which I (think I) understand. But can anyone - and I guess I hope JF reads this - explain why, in the normal course of events (A320 Series, crz around FL350+, CI 12, mid weight) the climb IAS/Mach will be roughly 285/.77 with the usual crossover level around FL300 and yet on the short flights LGW/LTN/STN to AMS/CDG which are capped at FL230 the climb IAS is high - 300ish which converts to the climb/crz Mach of .65ish at around FL180 so you end up cruising at a ridiculous IAS of around 250-260. I understand why the ac wants to cruise at such a low IAS, but why does the FMGC want to climb at such a high IAS which it then drags back using Mach No to the required low value.

A good read!
Cheers
mcdhu

[John Farley]

Thanks for the kind words chaps. I have stayed away up to now 'cos of advertising rules.

mcdhu

Sorry - I have no experience of your FMGC (or anything like it!) so can only guess. From a common sense point of view I wonder if these programmes try to minimise time to destination if you stop them going to the FL that would be their normal choice?

I have a mate who would prob know the answer but he is out of contact for a couple of weeks.

JF

[mcdhu]

Thank you very much, JF. If you could ask your mate and post the answer here, I would be very grateful. In the meantime, I'll post the conundrum in the Techlog and see what drops out.

Cheers
mcdhu

[Cretan Airbus]

Is anyone aware of any booksellers in North America carrying the book? I understand I can have it shipped from the U.K., but just wanted to avoid the shipping time and expense as I am readying to leave for an overseas assignment.

It sounds like a great read.

Thanks,

Cretan

[sandiego89]

ARXN, in reply to your last question in post 34, yes he was involved in the accident with Sea Harrier XZ438 on May 17, 1982. Lost on departure from the ski jump at Yeovilton due to fuel inbalance, namly one external wing tank being full, the other not. Externals were the large 330 gallon "ferry" tanks being trialed to get the aircraft to Ascension.

I have no information on your earlier questions regarding the low level training.

John, thank you for the book- this thread reminded me to order today.

[John Farley]

mcdhu

Sorry for the delay - my mate is back but he has computer probs and all his A320 system stuff is on it - so give us another day or three

Regards

JF

[John Farley]

mcdhu

Well my mate is up and running and his view is that the speeds chosen by the system were driven by the Cost Index (CI) input.

If you want more detail I quote from his to me:

You asked about the CI on an Airbus.

It is a complex subject and I would not claim to be an expert. Many pilots believe that they understand the process but then find that they cannot explain an observation, such as the one you asked about, because there is more to it than appears in the FCOM.

The primary and essential goal of the cost index is trip cost, or mission optimisation, and not speed control. It is a flexible tool to control fuel burn and trip time or a trade off between the two where the cost of time in the air against the fuel cost is a complex equation. The CI has aspects that assist airlines to optimise their operations to any number of factors including aircraft leasing and maintenance costs, or even flight crew costs. Therefore it is not just about speed or fuel flow during any phase of flight although short term changes to CI are often used when short term changes in the price of fuel are experienced.

For a given sector minimum trip cost is achieved by adopting operational speeds that properly proportion fuel and time related costs for a given CI. The IAS/IMN speed target will depend on a number of factors including the Take Off Mass, OAT and actual wind, and it will compensate for fluctuations in wind or differences between pre-flight inserted forecast winds and actual wind measured in flight. When the CI is low the initial flight profile will relate to best achievable rate of climb, and takes into account a calculated cross over altitude (IAS to IMN) usually between FL230 and FL270.

Cruise level optimisation is another CI factor but where a level is held down for operational reasons the lower the FL the lower the economic IMN, and the lower the aircraft gross mass the lower the economic IMN. These two factors probably come into play on a short sector where operationally it may not be best to plan to fly at a maximum achievable level from purely a performance point of view. ATC, SIDs, airways and STARSs (plus some crafty planning to avoid traffic) might all dictate a lower best altitude to fly. Such lower cruise levels may appear to confuse the CI process, but it still works effectively, even when the selected level is right from a performance point of view as well.

On the other hand it is not perfect and occasionally anomalies are evident, but when a profile is observed regularly it is doing it right even though the reasons may not be obvious.



Hope this helps.

Regards

JF

[actus reus]

I must confess that I have no experience of the A320 FMGC; however, the CI calculation for the A330/A340 FMGC, pre 'Pegasus II' FMGC, does indeed drive the climb speed schedule. Most organizations, and I am being a bit liberal here so I stand to be corrected, find the inclusion of 'crew costs' into the CI calculation to be troublesome. It really is a flight time/ fuel cost/ maintenance cost algorithim situation and if the truth be told, most probably requires a 'variable CI' during flight to trully optimize the flight profile and this is taking no allowance of the costs of missed connections if the flight is late arriving (but arriving economically!) for those operators who utilize a hub and spoke principle. As for the FMC calculations themselves, the A3xx aeroplanes climb at the 'climb speed schedule' and then after the aeroplane enters the 'ALT CRZ', they transition into the cruise IMN/IAS required. On flight test with the B7xx aeroplanes with the FMC made by 'H'; the aircraft will transition into the cruise IMN late in the climb and, generally, do not go below the CI derived IMN/IAS. Airbus aircraft, again twin aisle, have a different Minimum time in the Cruise compared to Boeing aircraft. Without looking at my notes, AI = 1 minute in the cruise/ BAC = 3'?
Actus

[mcdhu]

Thank you John.

I apologise for the delay in acknowledging your input - a short but warm break in the ME kept me away from the internet.

It does make more sense now. I will try different CIs during the flight preparation phase to see what sort of 'scatter' I get which might help to explain further.

Again, many thanks to you and your pal for the time and effort.

mcdhu

PS Just finished Tony Blackmaman's 'Vulcan Test Pilot' - an interesting read.

[Dr Illitout]

Hi All
I have just finished the book and think it is excellent and will recommend it to anyone.
In the book John says that the last time he flew a Harrier at Farnborough was in 1992, when he displayed an Indian Navy example. Hear is one of my pictures from that show.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m63/Cking507/Seaharrier.jpg


The one think about the book that puzzled me was that I bought it from my local Smiths in Sale, Cheshire and it was SIGNED?! I have visions of poor John sitting in his front room, surrounded by mountains of the things, signing every one!
Thanks any way.

Rgds Dr I

[John Farley]

Dr Illitout

Thank you.

But it was Farnborough 1982 not 1992.

Time flies

JF

[Ken Wells]

Bought John's latest Book last month, at a book signing at White Waltham.

I will treasure it!!


And yes he did sign it!!

[Mister Geezer]

I will be ordering my copy when I am next back in the UK!

Looks like it is a fascinating read, so thank you John!

[C152_driver]

It is a fascinating read. I've been reading and re-reading the section in elevator vs. throttle for speed/flight path control on final for GA aircraft.

Thought-provoking stuff, and a very good time for me to be thinking about this (as neither technique is - as yet - "hard wired" in what passes for my brain).

Great book, John. Many thanks.

[Double Zero]

John,

Wasn't that the time ( my Father was crew-chief ) when you levelled out a little early from your unique climb, carried on the rest of the display then landed with a grin, " Always wondered what would happen if I lost the water at that point ! " ( the pump which does very high rev's had exploded ).

DZ

[John Farley]

DZ

It may have been - I recall the water pump event but not which particular aircraft was involved.

But if your Dad says so....

JF

[Double Zero]

Hello John,

For the sake of accuracy for readers here, I suspect you were being polite about ' not recalling which aircraft ' the pump failed on; Dad now thinks it was G-VTOL, while I've always been sure it was the FRS51 he related the tale about...

Either way, seeing the water pump light go out / red whatever it did, and feel a loss of a bit of power, was probably not what you'd have wished for at that moment !

The pump was replaced ( into a Harrier of some form, at least that's pretty certain ) and the aircraft fine for the next day, quite an ad' for the aircraft really, let alone pilot, but I doubt the happening was exactly broadcast.

Apologies for any confusion to others.

DZ

[John Farley]

Double Zero

Your dad is right it was G-VTOL.

The light was green when water was flowing and out when it was not.

No great drama but if the light went out the JPT would rise pretty quickly if you did not throttle back somewhat.

JF

[Double Zero]

John,

Thanks for that. No problem, with my years of BAe training I'll simply not tell Dad he was right and I was wrong.

Regards,

DZ

[stilton]

John, I wonder if you could humour my curiosity with this question !



Why is the throttle lever placed outboard of the nozzle control lever
It seems counterintuitive, to my thinking a Pilot would want the throttle lever to be closer to hand and not have to 'reach around' the nozzle lever ?


I am sure there is a good reason. Thanks for a great read by the way, enjoyed your book very much.

[John Farley]

stilton

Well what an interesting question. I have no idea why they are like they are and the two pilots who (probably) discussed the options with the designers in 1959 are both dead. I tried to contact Ralph Hooper but could not reach him. When I do I will let you know. Certainly I know Bill and Hugh did NOT want the sense of the nozzle lever to be aligned with the nozzles (ie nozzle lever aft when nozzles aft and nozzle lever forward when nozzles forward). This was because people are used to pushing things forward to go faster (whether it be RPM or airspeed)

I suspect (not the same thing as know) that the position of the throttle was chosen to be like any fighter which is usually fairly well outboard and where your left hand naturally falls - rather than close to your body. Remember that the throttle traditionally carries quite a few ancilliary controls including a twist grip (in those day) for gunsight ranging (youngsters will not know of wot I speak) and I would not like to operate that close to my thigh.

If my suspicions are correct then the only place left for the small and simple nozzle lever was inboard. Speaking personally I have never felt I wanted them round the other way.

Glad you enjoyed the book.

JF


PS I have just managed to raise Ralph and he has no recollection of any discussions on your topic only the one I mentioned above regarding the sense of the lever.

He did say that IF anybody had wanted them the other way round he would have worried that more lateral space would have been taken up and that was at a premium.

JF

[NoHoverstop]

As someone paid (on occasion) to cogitate on matters pertaining to the control of STOVL aircraft, I'd like to add to John's reply. It's my opinion that from the outset of the P1127 the designers had in mind that firstly they were in the warplane business and secondly that to make a VTOL (as it began) one they should depart from established sound warplane practice to the minimum extent practicable. So as John says, the throttle lever followed established practice of being a chunky bit of kit that fell easily to hand and had room for various important switches. Various other reasons (not least doing things in a manner perceived to be above all reliable given current proven technology) resulted in the nozzles being controlled by a mechanical lever. An electrical switch could go on the throttle lever (and later on of course it did in the nozzle-nudge system) or, as with the Yak-38, on the stick-top (although it has a mechanical conventional-flight/powered-lift selector inboard of the throttle too), but a mechanical lever had to realistically go elsewhere. The nozzle lever had to go close to the throttle, because at several stages of flight right after making a significant input with one there is a need to make one or more inputs with the other. It would also clearly help if the two levers were radically different in feel, to reduce (but alas, as history has shown, not eliminate) the odds of moving the wrong one. So big throttle meant smaller nozzle lever. A small nozzle lever outboard of the throttle would be awkward, as would any lever not big enough to stand well above the throttle. So as the smaller lever, the nozzle lever had to go inboard.

It's worth also pointing out that there's a handy little shelf outboard of the throttle where some some hydraulic pressure gauges live. In the hover this shelf is well placed as a hand-rest, allowing subtle movements of the throttle lever (try using your computer's mouse without resting your hand on the desk/mouse-mat - doable but not easy to be precise). If I dig around at work (fall-out from office moves permitting) I may be able to find out when this shelf was added. If it was there from the outset then it would also have influenced the original choice of lever arrangement. An outboard nozzle lever would be tucked away under this shelf, or have to be on top of it somehow. As John says, the Harrier (less so Harrier II) cockpits are rather cosy, so I doubt an ergonomic solution with the levers swapped over would fit.

F-35B has a really chunky throttle grip (so chunky we had to have a bit cut off to fit it in a Harrier cockpit). It has no nozzle lever at all.

[stilton]

Thank you for your replys John and ' Hoverstop' that certainly clears things up for me.


Was there ever any consideration of not having a nozzle lever at all, but simply a switch on top of the throttle rather like a pitch trim switch ?


I think you mention in your book that the Sea Harrier had such a device for moving the nozzles within a limited range.

[John Farley]

NoHoverstop and stilton

Given that Ralph designed the P1127 and that he has no recollection of any discussions re the juxtaposition of the two controls I think we can take it that it just happened the way it did 'cos it seemed the easy/natural solution at the time.

Talk of the outboard shelf does remind me that it was deliberately added as a hand steady (Hugh deffo told me that) and that once it existed it was seen that the Hyd gauges would go in nicely - efficient use of space thing again.

As to whether it would have been nice to operate the nozzles from the top of the stick I can only say "not 'alf" whenever they were moved as a flying control (ie accel transition and the end of the decel transition and at the hover). However when used as a selection device (ie putting them to the hoverstop before a VTO or down for an STO or raising them after a landing) then a lever was clearly quicker and easier to use.

Indeed after the hole in the wood night trials in 1966 I started a campaign that led to the nudger on the throttle (I would have been happy with the sticktop but the throttle had the airbrake control which was redundant in the circuit so could become dual use). In the P1127 days I don't think the use of an electric switch for the full authority control of the nozzles would have been tolerated on safety grounds. I only got the nudger through because it was fine limited to plus/minus 10 deg.

Jumping on to the VAAC I preferred the speed inceptor to be on the stick (the so called 1 1/2 inceptor layout) meaning you used your right hand for everything associated with flying the aircraft which gave me a sense of very low workload. (as the docs told me when I said this "ah Farley you were only using the left hand side of the brain with nothing for the right hand side to do - that will seem a doddle")

Sorry - you got me going again. Sad really.

JF

[Double Zero]

Hello John & all,

Just for info', I expect you probably tried it John, but in the late 80's I photographed a 'future projects' cockpit ( maybe with JSF or P1216 in mind, probably just an experiment ) which had the nozzles controlled by twisting the throttle.

With a significant nozzle angle display on the HUD !

I thought it looked as if one might easily inadvertently twist the lever when moving it fore & aft, though the technician ' flying ' it seemed to get on ok.

As history shows, it seems to have been surpassed anyway.

DZ

[stilton]

Very interesting, thank you for your reply John.

[amostcivilpilot]

:ok:

Thank you John for what looks like a fantastic read and to Flyer for an excellent service.

Have just read chapter one, marvelous :D

I am now about to bunk off work and settle down with it for the afternoon ;)

[John Farley]

Stilton

Had another chat with Ralph Hooper earlier this week. He remarked that while he had remembered nothing that made him think other than the lever just happened to be put inside the throttle (on the basis that there was nothing to make one put it outside) he said if you were looking for a reason today then how about "Throttles are instinctive things but setting the nozzle angle needed a scale alongside the lever and that would be easier to read on the inside"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/NozzleselectorleverP1127.jpg

[Double Zero]

Hello John,

Re. the scale on the nozzle lever, may I ask did you ever use that for your steep climb take-offs from the hover ? I got the impression it was done by 'seat of the pants' instinct.

Another Test Pilot asked a Flight Test Engineer to monitor the nozzle angle readings on the fuselage side compared to those in the cockpit - I wondered how accurate the painters were who put the markings on, and how much it mattered anyway with such pitch control and all the variables - that was before a series of late FRS2, generally heavily loaded short ski ramp tests though.

I don't know if you're aware, but there was a sort of urban myth among groundcrew that you did those take-offs with one hand on the seat handle; even I could see the flaw in that theory, as you apparently needed three hands already !

Andy

[BOAC]

00 - you may recall there was a fantastic picture in a paper of an RAF Harrier ejection in Cyprus while attempting to emulate JF's party piece, and forgetting that if you nozzled below 20deg (I think it was) you 'lorst the puffers' and that was NOT a good idea.

[yakker]

Rather than eject could he not have moved the nozzle lever and re-gained puffer control?

[John Farley]

yakker.

Very much so. Great pity. Page 240 para three mentions when I went past 20deg one day (quite right on the angle BOAC) and with a little back movement on the lever all became sweetness and light again.

00

Yes it was a seat of the pants job. Very easy like that. If you felt you were accelerating forward then more back stick was needed and if you felt you were accelerating backwards then more nozzle was needed. All so much easier to do than write about.

The nozzle angle scale painted on the fuselage side side was a useful cross check between the cockpit nozzle angle gauge indication and the nozzle angle scale alongside the throttle box. However it would be wrong in my view to suggest that a few degrees of error in any nozzle angle used was going to have much effect the way the aircraft flew with two exceptions. One being the angle used to hover as this needed to be right or the fuselage attitude would be outside the range that suited the undercarriage on a VL and the other was the 20 deg we have mentioned.

Urban myths are just that?

JF

[BOAC]

Yakker - of course, but in order to do that one needs to know what one has done to cause the problem in the first place! I suggest any 'ordinary' bona jet mate faced with a rapidly down pitching nose at around 100' in the hover might just also pull the handle (and then there's JF....:))

We did, of course, all absorb the expensive lessons from that accident.

[Jucky]

I went to the Flyer Bonus Day at Duxford yesterday to hear the excellent lecture given by John Farley. Thanks John for giving a very informative talk and signing my book. I could have listened to you for another couple hours!:D

[Chancros]

..that I joined PPrune to read more!

Worth catching any talks he makes too.

[rats404]

I recently purchased John's book, and just wanted to add my thanks for one of the very best aviation books I have ever read (and I've been reading them since John started flying VTOL!)

Really excellent, a great mix of anecdotes, piloting notes and excellent explanations of a wide range of subjects.

I too was surprised and very pleased to find my copy had been signed by John. I'm not lending it to anyone, but will recommend it to everyone.

[Double Zero]

Chancros,

If you peruse a decent newsagent ( i.e, with plenty of aviation magazines ) you'll find J.F. has started doing a regular column for one; easy to spot as they wisely mention him !

I've started reading it regularly for just that reason ( I had the honour of working for John in a small way; later bosses have had a very rough time measuring up... ) - and mailed the magazine in question to tell them just that, as a bit of feedback.

Mods; if this is any transgression, and I hope not, it is entirely mine, John is unaware I'm posting this and I hope not embarassed.

[Genghis the Engineer]

No transgression, although I think that if you check JF's been writing for that particular magazine for several years now.

G

[Double Zero]

Thanks Ghengis,

Though I think it's possible we're talking about 2 different magazines; I have seen articles by John in a certain magazine over the years, but now a rather more ' military ' based publication is making much of a new format bolstered by an interview with John, now followed by a regular column by him ( which judging by the heading and proposed subects covered, sounds like it will be both informative and amusing ) !

Whatever, I suggest anyone interested makes haste to the newsagent, as the latest copy of the mag' I'm referring to has a photo' & caption of John as an inset on the front cover, so is easy to spot !

[rjtjrt]

John Farley Magazine column - it's too cryptic for me. Living outside UK I can probably get said magazine if I know which one or ones (? 2 diff mags).
Can someone PM me with a clearer hint as to the magazine Mr Farley has a column in (so long as this doesn't contravene rules or PPRUNE etiquet)?
Much appreciated
John

[John Farley]

rjtjrt

Thank for your interest but just to say I quit the monthly column business when I did the book.

JF

[Double Zero]

Hello John,

It seems the magazine I'm referring to is being a tad naughty in making it all seem a new thing; then again it suits all of us who somehow missed it the first time round !

I have occasionally seen articles by yourself in a more GA oriented magazine too...

As long as you get 'repeat fees' or whatever and aren't being fiddled ( I'd think that unlikely ) it suits we punters just fine !

There is the bonus that the mag' I was originally referring to, the more military one, has revamped itself and has a lot of other good in depth stuff too.

I still feel it's a little bit of a cheat making it out that you've suddenly burst into print for them, but I and others will enjoy reading it, and I suppose that's just the publishing business...

[kluge]

Is Mr Farley's book "A view from the hover" still available ?

None in Amazon.co.uk it seems and certainly none in Singapore where I live. Have contacted a few bookshops but no joy.

I would be grateful for any pointers please.

Thank you.

K

[Genghis the Engineer]

Is Mr Farley's book "A view from the hover" still available ?

None in Amazon.co.uk it seems and certainly none in Singapore where I live. Have contacted a few bookshops but no joy.

I would be grateful for any pointers please.

Thank you.

K

Try here. (http://shop.flyer.co.uk/item.php?itemid=4)

G

[kluge]

G
Much appreciated.
Many thanks.
K

[IanSeager]

The second edition is available through Amazon here.

Ian

[treadigraph]

Many thanks Ian - ordered a copy this morning and I gather it is already in the post! :ok:

[B Fraser]

This book has been on my wish list for some time, is the 2nd edition an expanded version ?

[B Fraser]

I have had a reply from the author to my question.

There is now a list of abbreviations, some b/w photos have been replaced with colour versions of the same and a missing full stop has been corrected. It always pays to keep the punctuation police happy ;)