return of the silverback

[allaru]

Hypothetically speaking, if an airline were to be sold to another to raise some cash, how would the merging of seniority lists work.

Any ideas .

[Homo Ludens]

Happened before: remember Swiss Airlines and Cross Air?
Half of the guys at Cross lost their seniority, lots of them left the "new" company because of this. This was welcomed by the menagement.
It's all fun, games and... Bloody politics!

Good flying to all!

[mensaboy]

Merging of seniority lists is never an easy task. I am familiar with 3 instances of mergers/acquisitions/bankruptcies and in each instance the redefined seniority list was a disaster.

It usually comes down to negotiations between the respective unions and it is fair to say that those pilots directly involved in the negotiations will look after their best interests first, and then the interests of their fellow union members. If a consensus cannot be reached, then arbitration follows.

Needless to say, your relative prior seniority plays a role but it is not the only factor. For example, what types of aircraft are being utilized at the new airline? Does being a Captain before these events mean you will still be a Captain? How long was your airline in operation as compared to the other airline? Who bought who? Which airline was the successful airline and which one was headed for the recycling bin?

There is no easy answer and I can guarantee that some pilots will benefit while others suffer. It usually leads to hard-feelings amongst some and that is understandable.

Unfortunately, pilots are their own worst enemies in these regards. The company doesn't care one bit, provided there are no added training costs associated with the merged seniority list. Seniority of pilots is rarely a issue for management leading up to a merger.
The ****e only hits the fan after the bigwigs have made the merger a done deal. They know full well that the respective pilots will battle it out. If it gets too ugly, an arbitrator who usually has no frickin concept of the importance of seniority, will make the decision.

If you are about to undergo the merging of your seniority list with another airline, then fully expect to view the results as baffling. I would be extremely surprised if things went smoothly and the majority of pilots were happy in the end. Hope it works out for you though.

[Hook]

If you are about to undergo the merging of your seniority list with another airline, then fully expect to view the results as baffling. I would be extremely surprised if things went smoothly and the majority of pilots were happy in the end. Hope it works out for you though.


Er, correct me if I'm wrong Mensa but surely Allaru had YOUR (and my) airline in mind?
Lots of talk going around that EK is going to the Govt of Abu Dhabi, or possibly Etihad, as part exchange for Abu Dhabi helping out in Dubai's financial crisis.

[puff m'call]

Funny old thing, I heard the very same tale myself.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Yes indeed, i heard this from a couple of Non EK sources habibs. Apparently DXB Co, are a tad in debt and Sheikh Mo is able to bailout $50 billion, but is short by $70 billion. As AUH government is quite cash rich, they said sure, but give us Emirates Airlines as part of the deal :{:{

Will have to see how this pans out, inshallah Etihad will be merged with Emirates, as they have made bugger all money in the last 6 years, Etihad that is.

SyB :zzz:

[Austin Holed]

Simple, raise the Salik fee to 2000dhs. Bingo! debt paid in a couple of days. No messy merger, everybody happy. :)

[Wiley]

I think the merging of Etihad with Emirates was always going to happen (or at least in the eyes of the AUH family). Etihad was established with a charter to be bigger than Emirates a.s.a.p. Why? Because the 51% offer that was made (how many years ago is it now?) to buy in to Emirates was rejected by the Al Maktoums at the time.

From a seniority perspective, like any such merger, if it happens, it won't be pretty, especially, I think, for the more senior EK pilots. However, if it happens now, in a time of... shall we say 'non-expansion', the more junior pilots' problems in both companies may be somewhat larger!

Given the size of the UAE, the proverbial Blind Freddie has been able to see for years now, (even without the current financial crisis to 'concentrate his mind'), that a single airline serving both cities and operating from a yet to be built terminal at the new airport at Jebel Ali was the only sensible long term option for both cities.

But such a decision would involve someone in each city giving up quite a lot, (if, in the current situation, far moreso in Dubai than in Abu Dhabi), and until now, no one in either city has been willing give up anything. And only someone familiar with local politics in the Gulf - and all that that implies - can understand what a huge step any such move will be for all parties involved.

Whatever happens, people like us will be little more than (very interested) observers and will be told - that's the only word that's appropriate - where our place will be, if we are to have a place, in the merged entity.

[Marooned]

Emirhad or Ethirates?

Either way it doesn't sound right and with the various characters and egos involved at both airlines I doubt a smooth transition would take place. I've always thought that Etihad was a token airline set up with their sights firmly set on EK, just waiting to pounce when it floundered.

As far as the seniority lists are concerned it will be a mess. Some will be advantaged, many disadvantaged. There will be no union to negotiate and it will be imposed with the 'if you don't like it leave' caveat common to both airlines. One small positive however is that Etihad is still relatively small and the impact should be less on EK than if it were any bigger.

Another positive is that a strong national carrier would be created with the means at least to really weather the economic turndown and survive well into the future securing all our jobs (management withstanding).

Maybe just maybe we could also contemplate basings as the pilot workforce would swell to over 3,000... at the very least perhaps there would be some villas in Abu Dhabi for its pilots.

Interesting times.

[pool]

Some villas for pilots in Abu Dhabi? You're dreaming mate. It's just as bad down there.
It would all come down to who gets the part of the shepherd and who has to be the camel. Believe me, I'd love to see TC having to bend over for JH. Allthough no one would seriously want to see a new company making the losses the clowns down south set up.
It has to happen, sooner or later and to keep the invaluable impact of branding, it has to adopt the name of Emirates. This might be the biggest obstacle. As to ownership, who gives a toss. The Burj al Arab is owned by Abu Dhabi, but is still considered the symbol of Dubai.
Another problem is hubbing. Two hubs won't work and the one in DXB is much bigger and nicely established. You want value for money, you have to keep it.
Maybe a shelving of terminal 4 in DXB and the planned expansion in AUH could be stalled, JXB brought forward and made the new hub. Exchange a little land, as to put JXB on both emirates could save some faces. Naming the airline Etihad of Emirates (unity of Emirates) could do the same. Send both hyper-egoed CEOs home and have the two Ahmeds agree on a new one. Adopt best practices and ... Bingo.
But unfortunately we are talking about the sandpit and its natives, most probably they will sc..w up this opportunity as well.

[fourgolds]

I've heard the same. Emirates for sale to Abhu Dhabi. Dubai inc. seems to be in a little trouble. Again this is a rumour network but my soursces are from mates in commerce who have nothing to do with the airline industry but a lot to do with Dubai inc . If this rumour has any substance then hold on to your hats boys and girls.

[mensaboy]

Yikes Hook,

I never thought of that! Damn, I hope my past experience is no indication of future ones.
And I was having a good day too !

[Gillegan]

I'm not sure if there is anything to this rumour as all I know is what I've read here but it seems to make a lot of sense. The market will not be able to support the ambitions of both carriers (either short or long term), Dubai Inc., seems to be in need of some cash and there is a new gargantuan airport being built that is roughly equidistant from both cities.

If done as a partnership with egos left at the door (I know, what are the chances), with the stronger of the two management teams running the whole thing, it could probably work out well. As far as merging of the seniority lists, based on what I've seen, when it's left to the pilots, the fact that we'll be told how it's going to be done might actually be a good thing. At least we'll know who to blame (same as always) and it won't be other pilots. It's not like seniority counts for that much at either carrier.

[Wizofoz]

Etihad starts in 2003. Pilots who joined EK in 2003 are about seniority 600ish.

If they therefore just judged seniority on start date, the top guy in EY would be about 600 in EK- Still pretty good, arguably better that being in EY, and still top dog in "United Emirates" (or whatever) Abu Dhabi base. If they did something like a "3 for 1" merge, everyone would be about where they were in terms of position and upgrade potential. Either way, it would be a lot less bloody than the attempts to merge lists in the US and Canada, and in any case, seniority doesn't effect much here anyway.

I've also often said it only made sense for EK an EY to merge at some point, the UAE simply doesn't need two airlines.

And if we then have an airline with two bases, why not more......

[NG_Kaptain]

The whole issue of merging seniority lists scares me. I've never seen mergers that were done to the satisfaction of all concerned,and I've been through a few, however seniority has never been paramount here in any UAE airline. My only concerns are keeping my job and keeping my seat, they both go together. I've got friends at EK who joined there after I joined EY who are in the left seat so hopefully my seat may be protected. I guess we'll all have to wait and see how things pan out. By the way, I dont have any desire to relocate to Dubai as I really prefer the lifestyle in Abu Dhabi.

[Wizofoz]

NG,

I wouldn't have any worries about an Abu Dhabi controlled airline reducing operations from OMAA. If anything, I would think the traffic would be the other way.

[NG_Kaptain]

Guess thats that thing that gets you a seat in the back of economy "pearl" when you want to get the he*l out.

[pool]

NG

That would then definitely favour the entry date seniority.
Remember the bucket theory?

[Wiley]

The one thing I can guarantee is that if EY have the upper financial hand, as it would seem they do, it won't be datal.

I think anyone who took the time to think about it would quickly come to the conclusion that in EK, (and EY?), about the only time seniority really matters is when you're lining up with a dozen other staff for that most elusive of creatures, the sub-load seat.

On a more serious note, I've said above (and before) that I've thought for a long time the merger would occur one day. For everyone's sake, I'd really love to see the egos put aside and the merger to work. Who knows? If the debt is as big as I suspect it might be, they might just have to be. Let's hope the egos down in AUH are such that they'll allow everyone in DXB some suitable saving of face.

For everyone's sake, I think we'd all love to see LR 3 doing his sprint naked down Shk Zed Rd!!

[EK748]

The DXB liquidity issue makes sense, seeing that all the companies listed on the DIFX are (in a six degrees kind of way) linked to the ruling family. And we all know what is happening stock marketwise.

The scary thing to me, is that if the 2 Es decided to merge, this would cause a massive overlap in the route networks and if we take their public figures to any level of credibility (74% load factors on big red). Who gets kept until the merged company secures a few more worldwide parking slots?

Dum da dum dum.

[Marooned]

I guess it's these overlaps that would create efficiency but where would the hub be? It would make sense for DXB, now with T3 and 4 on the way, to be the hub (Pending Jebel Ali) whilst AUH hosts other carriers?

Eithad being the 'national' airline might have the clout to get more destinations than EK...

Not knowing.

[EK748]

Quick update.

It seems that AUH doesn't want EK lock, stock and flannel. It just want's a stake...

Don't quote me though.

[White Knight]

'flannel'???

I heard 20%.....

[EK748]

'flannel'???

In deference to the impending winter season.

I heard about the same...

[EK748]

Last one from me.

Dubai Business | Kippreport Rise stocks, rise (http://www.kippreport.com/kipp/2008/11/18/rise-stocks-rise/)

[Panama Jack]

Back to your original question.

So far, I've seen 3 different scenarios on seniority when two companies merge.

1) List is unified by Date of Hire. In my humble opinion, the fairest scenario, although inevitably people on both sides are unhappy (Captains returning to the right seat and the big fish in the small pond being fish in a big lake).

2) Winner takes all. The pilots of the "acquired" company go to the bottom of the seniority list. Losers very unhappy. This happened when American aquired TWA. Should not be a major factor, mind you, in the event of an EK/EY merger since seniority doesn't really decide who flies the left or right seat.

3) A 2:1 type of merging scenario-- where the pilots of the victor company get two seniority places for every one of the "losing" company. Again, people unhappy from both teams. This is what happened when Air Canada acquired Canadian Airlines.

Overall, combining workforces has never been a smooth an happy situation in any airline merger.

[Marooned]

20%...

This makes it a bit more intriguing as Etihad would then no longer compete with EK as it is not in their interest to do so. It could help start a new relationship of cooperation, probably better than a full blown take over bid which could be very divisive... As an interim measure it could test the water for a closer link up in the future...

[Panama Jack]

If the rumours are true, then just a couple of questions on this matter.

1) I thought Emirates was a profitable airline (if you believe all the financial reports and newspaper articles). What happened?

2) How will this affect start-up plans for Fly Dubai?

[fourgolds]

Goody , I might get to fly the 787 after all :)

[pool]

1) I thought Emirates was a profitable airline (if you believe all the financial reports and newspaper articles). What happened?

2) How will this affect start-up plans for Fly Dubai?

1. Emirates was and is still profitable. It's the whole Dubai Inc. (who owns EK) that is short of liquidity. For EY it would be a great step, their huge losses could just be covered by EKs profit. Even with a 20% entry share they could profit. They would influence streamlining of certain routes.

2. Most probalby stalling or considerably slowing this start.