Anybody got a job recently?

[Witty User Name]

Hi all,

Thought I'd pose the question....has anybody with low hours been given a job recently?

Had a fATPL a couple of months and sent the CV out to lots of operators including parachute schools, glider clubs, air taxi outfits, charter businesses, freight carriers, aerial surveyors, aerial photographers and one airline. Not had too many replies but some good feedback about my CV and covering letter. I have a little over 300 hours with all first time passes.

Just wondered if anybody out there has had any success recently?

I am now actioning plan B and have booked my FIC. Looking forward to doing some instructing and flying regularly even if the pay isn't great.

Good Luck to all the guys out there looking for jobs:ok:

[Messerschmitt]

What country are you in?

[PrittPower]

If you are in the UK, good luck finding an FI job. You will be doing better than me.

[hitmanishere]

I am now actioning plan B and have booked my FIC. Looking forward to doing some instructing and flying regularly even if the pay isn't great.



:}Me too...My flight school wants to pay for the course and bond me for 2years..... Oh!well,I guess desperate times call for desperate measures..:O

[portsharbourflyer]

Well I did have an interview with a certain regional operator last month, but I am not strictly speaking low houred (also have some previous multi crew turbine time). Anyway wasn't sucessful but the same operator was also interviewing 250 hour candidates.

Hitmanishere, there is nothing desperate about the deal you are offered, it is saving you about 6-7000 pounds of your own money, you're chances of getting an airline job in the next two years are slim so I would say you are in an extremely good position. I assume the bond is decreasing (to be legal it has to be) which means even after one year you would only need to pay back half the cost, so you will still have a half price rating.

Witty User Name, Air taxi work is single pilot ops, so you can't be insured with less than 700 hours and that must also include 40 hours p1 ifr multi (there are one or two operators with a concession on this). As for para dropping, or other aerial work you will need to present yourself to the operators in person, sending letters and cvs will is not likely to yield results.

Not many operators that tend to care too much about first time passes, the occasinal on line form asks the question, I remember the Chief Pilot of BMI Baby at the Balpa conference loking at my CV saying first time passes all very impressive but we are more worried about the personality.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can confirm that the chill wind has arrived in the world of Flying Instructor recruitment. Demand is still OK for IRI's and at the Integrated employers but on at the PPL level supply is definitely outstripping demand now.

You'll be a looong time making back the £5k FI course...

WWW

[Coffin Corner]

£5k ? Sh!t mine cost me £7k :\

[Aerospace101]

sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there are no jobs

haven't you heard theres a recession on?!

[YYZ]

A rare but good story, a friend of mine I tought during his PPL, recently finished his CPL/IR and got an interview (passed) and a start date with a UK based airline on the bus!!

Well done mate!

YYZ

[Superpilot]

Did he pay for his rating?

[gunit]

got a job in mcdonalds, does that count?

[Tiger_ Moth]

I got a glider towing job but it was unpaid and only for the summer. Was fun though!

[Put1992]

So, FI jobs are being badly affected? Because that's not my "plan B", that's plan A!

[cwy04]

A bit difficult for flight instructors even if you get the job you wont be able to make a living out of it

[INNflight]

Friend of mine just started on a Hawker 800XP, right seat. 250hrs freshman :D

[Dick_Dasterdly]

dont believe the "there are no jobs" comments, because there are...

[Dick_Dasterdly]

however McDonalds do require 500hours on the fryer and min of 200hours in command of the till....

[INNflight]

No kidding, I've recently seen a Mac Donalds advert for pilots...

Unfortunately they were looking for Global Express rated captains, so 200hrs at the grill won't be nuff :sad:

[irishone]

I reckon Tesco's is looking pretty good now for job hunting

[CharlieLima]

is that all there is? cummon with the rate these courses are churning out new FO virgins there must be more of you bummed out looking at this thread on pprune with a thousand applications and c.v's circulating your tabbed browser!

I would expect this thread to be bursting with whingers that this forum is kinda famous for :P ( u know it)

Seriously though it would be interesting to know about the process of looking for job after job and how long since your qualification. And also how does it affect you psychologically after spending so much effort and money on training, and how do you manage or deal with the current situation.

If thats all there is .... then hey its not looking that bad!

[Grass strip basher]

Title of the thread is "has anybody got a job recently".... the silence is deafening.... Charlie Lima maybe that answers the question... there are no jobs at the moment... :hmm:

[flying macaco]

got a job with XL about a year ago with about 150 hours....:}

[neil_1821]

A lot can change in a year, a lot can change in a matter of days!

I've completed all my training, got roughly 270 hours, circulated my CV round and out of the handful of replies i've had there are no jobs.

I even said i'd pay for the type rating if there would be a promise of a job at the end of it, but i guess different companys have different views on that.

Best advise i was given is to stay current on your ratings and just keep sending your Cv out with follow up calls etc. You've got to be patient :}

[CharlieLima]

Title of the thread is "has anybody got a job recently".... the silence is deafening.... Charlie Lima maybe that answers the question... there are no jobs at the moment...

LOL TRUE TRUE thought of that a second after my rant, murphys law.

[diarmuid8]

I got an FO job.

Keep the chin up and look everywhere.

D8.

[boogie-nicey]

As WWW mentioned earlier the cold chill has indeed arrived throughout the aviation community with few if any regions of the globe unaffected. I can't understand why after so many signs and voices that forewarned of this difficult time people ignored it and even now the penny still hasn't dropped. Going for a FI ticket just means you're making a smaller mistake than the price you paid for basic training but another mistake nevertheless.

How long would the Flight INstructor's course really take? Once there are signs of a recovery you can rush out and get the rating thus safeguarding your invetsment. To throw money on it at present is just silly. Recall that the newly acquired rating means you're already at or near test standard rather than decaying over months possibly years and then finding yourself out of standard and emotionally demotivated. Come on give yourself a break and stop being your own worst enemy.

Flying is not exempt from social and economic realities the airline heads are very integrated with the economic landscape and aren't distracted by the whole 'naive dream' side of aviation. You need to get a firmer understanding of that aspect rather than ratings for now. Even if you get a job now how long will you keep it before being let go...? Remember the airline operator might already realise that they need someone for a couple of months and "oh well we can dump them at the end of that, who's knows but it sure won't be our problem", that's how they see it. You have got yourselves sucked into a poverty situation and the way things are going the options to make a living in alternative industries is slowly evaporating too. The issue of recruitment shouldn't be first on your list (after all if the employment activity is geared in the opposite direction then why are you expending such efforts to follow it).
This indeed is difficult reading and I take no joy from that at all, if anything I would dearly love to hear that my peers have all got jobs or at least some hope of something aviation related in the pipeline but alas that's not necessarily true at present.

"Get in from the cold before you freeze".... Remember how you were taught to avoid aviation gremlins and pitfalls during training. What about the bad weather issues of just calm down and wait for the weather to clear and then go, no good up there wishing to be on the ground? That is no different from the job hunt, we can't control the weather it happens to us but we can control how best to handle it and thus reduce the damage upon ourselves, our finances and families.

There should be no-one who claims that post training they'll never fly again because you all will, at least privately and with your quality of training you can step up to some exotic machinery that's for sure along with a logbook full of decent hours and alot of respectable experience. However the issue of employment well that's another matter but after all it's just a job, don't kill yourself over it. Come on chaps and chapesses a touch discipline please.

[v6g]

The responses-to-views ratio of this thread speaks volumes. (25:4213 as of this posting)

[SKYWRITER1]

Whilst there may still be a few jobs around, they are few and far between. Don't forget Excel etc put over 200 experienced and rated jet pilots on to the market, many of whom are still looking for work. I have recently been threatened with redundancy and started to look for work just in case. Not one reply yet, (I have over 2000hrs, 1800 on jet) Whilst I havent applied to TP operators, these may be a better bet for low hour guys. They may be more reluctant to take on experienced jet guys who will leave as soon as there is an upturn. My advice would be to take ANYTHING you can. It took me 2 years to get a flying job post 9/11. In the meantime I dispatched for circusair and worked in ops for a major airline. It helps with contact and you learn stuff too!

Good luck guys,

SW

[v6g]

In the meantime I dispatched for circusair
- was there really an airline called circusair?

[Fireboy]

Nick name for Servisair

[tonyic7]

qualified in June 07, accepted into a major airline hold pool in the sept (still in it), since then I have become well educated on the building site! Sent out cv's to other airlines but no luck. Trained at Oxford, integrated course and £80k in debt. Know two other guys in the same position. It has been depressing at times but I'm not giving up. Just happened to be at the wrong time. Will need to do the ir again next year in the a/c so another ££££ will be calling. And I thought the ir was the hardest thing I'll ever do!

[bucko]

Nervousair is just as appropriate!!!:}

[SKYWRITER1]

tonyir7,

Slight thread creep, but to help keep the costs down, you can renew your IR in the sim. You will lose your twin rating, but you only need the IR bit to start a type rating. Much cheaper, and you can say your IR current. Oh, renewals are (normally) much easier!

SW

[r1flyguy35]

Finished my training April, 250+ hours (UK) Modular, self funded, full time job held

CV's sent out.

Interview August (only one of two that I got offered)

Started New Job November on training course now, TR course starts next month to fly airbus. (paid for by company but bonded, i don't care)

:ok:

There are jobs out there,

[ElitePilot]

I agree there are jobs out there, but obviously fewer than 6-12 months ago!

f/ATPL, 700+hours, SSTR. Recently hired shortly after completion on type.

Stay positive!

[G-STAW]

just got a job at Swissport Manchester in Dispatch. plus setting up a company selling products what ive been developing for the last 3 years,

god it a long road to the right seat!

good luck guys..

[stefair]

I don't buy it. There are jobs out there but they don't come to you.

Finished modular training myself in August without MCC. Want a company to pay for it, not me. Currently flying freelance C172, 430 TT. Scraping by. Literally. That being said, however, presently in selection process with European regional and invitation to second selection, also regional. Both would pay for MCC and TR IF I get through which still is a looong road, not anywhere just yet. But, there is light.

Buddy of mine, who did groundschooling with, also in selection process with a European airline. The situation is certainly not great either over in continental Europe but I'd say for sure not as grim as in the UK. Be PROACTIVE and prepared to explore all directions. Aaaand, be very patient and try to not lose your flying skills. Join a gliding club, join a flying club, ask people for a free ride. Make contacts and be a nice guy, someone others want to hang out with in the cockpit for eight hours and drink the obligatory pint after.

A corporate pilot I know said to me the other day that he had been knocking on doors for two years after training, that was back in the 90s. He recommended to be patient but persistent. Another one said, only those who give up will not end up in the right seat. The others will. For some, it will be straight after training, for some it will happen years later.

Good luck!

[davecfm56]

I just became an expat in Africa in order to keep flying. The pay isn't great and the living conditions are poor but at least I'm flying and gaining hours hopefully to return to the UK in a stronger position then I left.

Before I left other, more experienced pilots told me I was crazy to consider flying in Africa and now I'm here I can see why, the admin side of things is agonising and dealing with the culture shock takes time there are however, some positives. The flying is challenging but rewarding (its certainly not ILS to ILS) and its on brand new equipment, the roster is intense but that’s why I'm here, not to go seeing sights of :mad: on my days off and there’s a nice expat community developing and growing every week.

I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea and if I had a choice I wouldn't be here but with training loans, a mortgage to pay and a 737 rating to maintain it’s a short term solution that allows one to weather the current storm in European aviation.

Don’t get me wrong I'm not saying this is the thing to do at all, it’s a last resort, but I just want to say there is an option for sub 1000h airline people.

Truly the best of luck to everyone job hunting. Bad times.

[adverse-bump]

So, FI jobs are being badly affected?

Not true, I left my FI job over a year ago, I go back occasionally to keep current. But Im always getting phone calls asking if I can do extra days for them, they are turning students away as they done have enough instructors and have just bought 2 new a/c.

[biggles34]

I have over 900 hours with public transport experince, Have FAA & JAA licence, I have not been able to find any work for over 4 months let alone flying work. with crazy amount of debt as direct result of flight training.

I am now thinking of finding myself a new career.:ugh:

Its very frustrating to be in this position but in order to be successful in this game as well as getting through all the hoops you need lots of luck and perhaps friends in high places.

I wish everyone in similar position best of luck. There are jobs out there you just have to be the one they are looking for.

All the Best
Biggles34;)

[captainyonder]

Keep on trying guys, out of flight school in November and managed to land a job on a turboprop in the UK. Base check completed just before Christmas and just received my first roster for January. Keep on plugging away, and if you're currently training don't be afraid to start bugging chief pilots etc now, that's what I did and without that networking I wouldn't have a job. Don't just rely on sending out CV after CV. There are jobs out there, but trust me, they aren't going to come to find you, you have to do ALL the leg work at the moment.

[theflyer1971]

Alright everybody out there.. I am new to this but I would just like to say that I qualified from an integrated course a year ago, did the Ryanair interview and got nowhere and spent months wondering why did I give up a great job to become an unemployed pilot. Have a lot of debt like a lot of others on here but I refused to give up. In September I did a TR on the A320 as I wanted to have something extra on top of a frozen ATPL.
I applied for a job last month in Asia as an f/o on the A320. I am now starting on the line in 3 weeks time.:D I have only 300 hours with a tr on the A320 but I still managed to get the job. Plus, I am joined here by several low houred guys.
Basically lads, I have been lucky but my point is never give up. There are jobs out there for us low houred guys and don't listen to the moaners and whingers who just like to come on here and feel sorry for themselves!:*
All the best to you all and that first job will come

[Anonymus6]

theflyer1971,

I belive you got a job with air asia!!! if yes, don't forget to bring some aspirins with you to malaysia. It is a headache to work for that company. a lot of corruption.

Good luck and congrats to your job. Good first job to build some time and move on!!

[shaun ryder]

Loads of debt and paid for your own type rating. You call that being lucky?

Its a funny old world :rolleyes:.

[Flintstone]

I even said i'd pay for the type rating

:ugh:



..........

[airbandit]

But what about Ryanair, DHL? East Europe/Asia airlines?
Well if you plan to be FO in UK ~250 hours, omg its gonna be tough :ugh:
But look around, maybe you can still manage to get a job elsewhere! By the way it is interesting to explore the world and spend couple years in, for example, China :}

[Olabade]

I started as A32S family cop in september. Did a year of instructing waiting for the type rating course to start. I was on a fully sponsored course so i guess it's a bit different thing...

I can recommend instructing for everyone. Loads of fun and professionally rewarding even if the pay isn't that great.

Good luck to all hunting for the first job.

[chongololo]

What's the point of an A320 type rating with only 300 hours?
One barely knows how to land a 172 in a crosswind at those hours.

[ElitePilot]

Thats a good point Chongololo.
I amazes me to see people with 200-300 hours go straight into a jet. However seeing these guys in a sim they seem to have the aptitude and skill for it.
I know I would have struggled with this sort of TT looking back and seeing the holes in my knowledge but I feel a lot more confident after instructing for a couple of years before taking the step.

Fair play though there is no guaranteed way in besides persistance and motivation in the sub 1000TT category or even more time.

And as much as I don't agree with the ethics, im another one in the SSTR camp but didn't have to pay to fly one. Good luck all.

[PAPI-74]

1700 TT and 1100hrs on a TP.
I can't get a jet job for love nor money (well sod the money; that is mine), but I still enjoy what I do so I am hapy to wait to the up-turn in the market.

STOP BUYING TYPE RATINGS AND FLY TURBOPROPS FOR A FEW YEARS. YOU HAVE YOUR WHOLE CAREER TO FLY SOMETHING BIGGER. WHY RUSH. ENJOY THE PROGRESSION FFS!!!!

[negativefx]

just got bt job without type :):ok:

[hitmanishere]

However seeing these guys in a sim they seem to have the aptitude and skill for it.



Yep, Some people are just born to fly!!!


What's the point of an A320 type rating with only 300 hours?
One barely knows how to land a 172 in a crosswind at those hours.


:}Its harder to land a C172 in a 15Kts crosswind condition than a B737...

[A340rider]

Where are all these TP jobs then you an all other go on about on here..You still require TR for turbo prop aswell yeah???...or do you just kick tire and start it up for a Kingair/ATR/ATP/Metro/Dash8 etc

If you cant get one for love nor money with 1700TT 1100 TP howe does a wannabe get one..Stupid post and pointe...

[Bearing 123]

Totally agree with Shaun and Flinty: :ok:

How does paying for a rating make you lucky????? Your future prospective employer is taking the absolute P*&* out of you and its killing the industry:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

PAPI-74, what do you think is driving your propellors, and rubber band?

[PAPI-74]

The only reason that SOME operators NOW require a TR for a Turboprop is because they have followed suit. 15 years ago, the airlines paid for the MCC, now it is a requirement. The norm is still a bond though.
That is my point A340rider/wannabe is that the jobs aren't really there, unless you want to work with really poor T'&C's. Now, if you guys rush in and pay for everything, the airlines will want more and they are taking it right now. When they accepted 1000hrs on a TP for a 737 job, now they want a TR and 500hrs on type, unless you want to work for 'fresh air' the first 2 years. Even with an ATPL, if I wanted to goto Easy (for example) I still have to pay for the TR (yes they pay it back, but what if CTC or Easy go bust) and cover the interest for 5 years, as well as the other hidden extras. This is why theflyer1971 was screwed over. They can do what they like if you sign up for their game. The house/bookie always wins...... Even jet2 are looking at seasonal Capt's, then demoted tO FO for the Winter. Can you imagine if the pilots agreed to that?
Game / Industry over.
If you are lucky, a major will look at you, but get in line.

CAT3 - yes ok a PW119B is a turbomachine with a reduction gearbox etc. burning JetA1 (or whatever you stick in the tank actually) but the less payload you can fly, the less you can earn. If I can jump up, my salary will increase.

Don't get me wrong, I am not that bothered what I fly, I just am not going to get ripped off doing it; so until the right job comes along I will be happy with the view from my TP. I have been offered other jobs, but jumping from a poorly paid cushy job into hell fire isn't wise. Feel free though, but don't moan after 6 months (when the honeymoon period is over) when you can't sleep and feel physically sick with fatigue, which happened to me last month by the way.

Was is a piontless reply in the first place to the original thread 'anybody got a job recently'? Of course not you div. I was saying why I haven't moved on co#k block.
Was it a pointless attack on a genuine reply? Yep

[Day_Dreamer]

PAPI-74

You live in cloud cuckoo land and must be LA-LA if you think people will stop paying for a jet type rating, straight out of training.

Majority of Jet jobs available are Pay Your Own Training !!!
Jet B.737 (Rating £22000) income £36000 +
OK ill wait and go onto a self sponsored turbo-prop rating (Rating £17000) average salary £20000.

The economics are plain too see, for an extra outlay of £5K there is a potential of earning £16K per year more.

Those few who can afford to pay will always do so, while the others bemoan their fate and bleat like lambs on forums like this.
While not all can pay to get these jobs its a form of self selection and those who can pass the entry process are usually those who have superior skills and motivation.
I support those who cannot pay, but in the current climate they are putting themselves way down the list for the few jobs that are available.
For those who won't pay on principle, well principles are honorable but don't pay the bills.

I have seen and flown with many SSTR students, and they are strongly motivated and highly skilled, they have come from the integrated and modular worlds, and I can safely say that Hours flown is NOT a measure of their ability prior to SSTR training.

As to return to this post, there are jobs out there but anyone looking must have that special something to make them stand out from the crowd.
The SSTR courses are filling up fast, this is indicative of the way things are going for 2009.

If any of you job seekers are fortunate to be offered anything from Para Dropping, FI to Jet.
TAKE THE JOB even if it takes you abroad for a couple of years, its easier to get a job while employed in the industry than on the outside looking in.

[EK4457]

The problem with 'FI ing' is that financially, it is about as bad a deal as you can get out of all the options. In excess of £7,000 all in for the FI rating gives you a salary of £14,000. And, unlike an FO position, that stays pretty much the same year on year.

In other words, over 2 years, you are looking at earning around 11k per year. No matter how much one loves the job, that just does not pay an ATPL loan. Fact.

I'd be interested to hear what current FI's think to this?

EK

[Olabade]

Sirs,

Although not current FI anymore, I made a 14 month bond for the FI course and the salary was 2000-2400 euros depending on the hours flown. Since the weather is a major factor around here I flew around 50hrs/month. The salary was a fixed base plus flightpay per hour.

I still think it's a far better choice then doing something outside aviation totally and maybe get a little better salary but when the time comes you land a job from a right seat of an airliner, you fail the jet sims...

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

You guys go figure out your own way and good luck.

[theflyer1971]

Yes I am lucky! Why? Cos I have a :mad: job. The cost of the tr was money well invested because I now have a wage to pay my debts. Or should I have stayed at home looking at my FATPL waiting for someone to call me with a job offer?
You would'nt be the brightest, would you?:yuk:

[stefair]

No, not really flyer 1971, you did not get lucky at all because you just bought yourself into the biz and consequently helped lower our working conditions. Fact. And that ain't too bright! := Unfortunately, folks like you will keep paying for type ratings but the only way to get companies back on track is to not go along.

There are jobs out there but not many. But let's face it, even in good times not everyone gets a job, and most certainly not everyone a jet job right after training. And, there still are companies out there that do pay for your TR, and not only that there are companies out there which pay for your MCC on top.

Happy New Year to everyone and may 2009 turn out much better than presently predicted! :ok:

[Day_Dreamer]

Stefair
Are you a total wally or just plain stupid ?
Put into this forum the facts about lowering terms and conditions, that have been caused by SSTR's.
Totally wrong !! after 36 nearly 37 years in this profession its the accountants who have been lowering terms and conditions for many years before the advent of SSTR's.
Dont get on my case about the likes of Ryanair, and how they charge for uniforms ect, I have heard it all before and posted my thoughts on that subject.
Its people like you who expect the world to owe you a living for the minimalist input from you.
The "I've got a Licence I should be first to get a job" crowd need to learn the lessons of life.
Namely Accountants like SSTR's because the cost to the company is reduced and the risk to the company is minimised. if you fail you paid and there was no cost to them.
There will be no change to the SSTR market as people will always pay that extra to get their first foot on that rung.
Theflyer1971 has done nothing wrong, he has just taken advantage of the situation available as any sensible person might in this climate.
Taking RYR for example Pay for the first 500 hours €55.5 / hour to the pilot, totaling €27750 plus 300 hours at €75.5 / hour giving another €22650.
For 1 year of paid service income €50400 or £48932.
Not bad for a year one pilot, even after paying Medical, Uniform, Car Parking etc.
Remember CTC cadets only get £1000 per month plus flight pay for 6 months then maybe a full time job, these days probably not.
If you think T & C's are being eroded look at their deal !!!

MCC courses are a requirement to get the licence issued and to my knowledge there are no sponsorships for MCC courses in the UK.

Yes some companies pay the TR, but the cadet salary is usually significantly less than the full F/O rate.
For example £28K instead of £45K rising to full F/O salary in year 5.
Q. Who pays for the rating ? A. Ultimately the Cadet

Get a life son, and get real SSTR's are here to stay, and accountants will always bust your A... whenever they can make a buck for the company at you and my expense.
Airlines will not come to heel, with people refusing to pay the rating as there will always be someone willing to fork out. Thats Life !!!

[Raffe69]

Day Dreamer, good points, well made.

People need to wake up to the realities of life and the way this industry works.

I am currently working with a number of Captains who started in the early-mid 90's ALL paid for their first TR.

Life was better for them from then on, and they all now have at least 5 types on their licences, which they have not had to pay for.

However to get that foot into the industry they had to pay. SSTR is not new!

[captainyonder]

Just to add to my earlier post, I got my job on the condition of self funding a type rating. I'm on a full salary from day one at the company, not day one of flying, not after line training nor after six months. I am not bonded and I am as secure as is possible in my job at the moment and have a contract to fall back on. Yes, there is the possibility that this downturn might result in me being laid off, but if that were to happen I will still get a full redundancy package etc. In short, I have no regrets, sadly it's just the climate we live in these days. Things are changing, we just have to deal with it. And it is not wannabes who are erroding T & C's, it's always been this way, it's all just smoke and mirrors.

[loftustb]

We're all drifting off the point here. The point is that if you choose to buy a type rating, you ain't "lucky". If you get a job in the current climate without buying a type rating, then you're "lucky".

[ElitePilot]

I think that really depends which side of the fence your on...

To the CPL/IR just out of school who does a SSTR and gets a job straght away in the current climate I would consider myself lucky.

To the employed ATPL with over 500 time on jet type would most likely see that as unlucky.

To the passengers in the back if they knew the costs, time and effort to get into that right seat would probably see it as insane!

To get a job at the moment without doing a SSTR is a very rare occurrence but there are no guarantees whichever route you take. You just got to do all you can to make yourself markettable to the employer... Isn't that basic stuff?

[stefair]

loftusb,
Exactly. Thank you.

Day_Dreamer and Raffe69,
In answer to your first question, I am neither. What I said about MCC and TR is fact, however, not common practice in the UK. I am prepared to relocate anywhere if that gives me a reduction in risk. I do love aviation but I am also in this business to make a living as my folks are not wealthy I'm afraid... sorry.

You are totally wrong in saying that it is the accountants lowering T's and C's. Their job is to lower the costs, that's right, but it is also down to us, the employees, to say NO to what the industry is trying to force us into. Unfortunately, not everyone does say no and therefore there is no reason for them to stop that bad practice. The consequences of people doing SSTRs has been debated here more than enough; I know it's very hypothetical, as there will always be wannabes willing to sign up for SSTRs, but if people unanimously refused to go along companies would have no other choice than to pay. It has always been like that, the employer side tries reducing overheads and since training of flight crew takes the biggest chunk of a company's expenses in salaries they try to pass it on to the employee. That is, BTW, why there are unions around.

Now, you advice me to "get real" and "learn the lessons of life." Very amusing I must say lol since you don't know jack:mad: about me. Let's sum up some facts: In no other profession will people have to pay that type of money blown in aviation on training, yet you are telling me that I need to pay even more to minimize the risk for the company? lol I invested an awful lot of money, and thanks to making wise choices I managed to keep the costs reasonably low, to - should all other options fail - have the money available for paying for a TR. But that is the very very very last resort. Having said that, let me tell you what I expect: I expect the company to test me on my abilities THOROUGHLY to determine if I am worth the investment. That's the only way because it's the right way.

Next point: An Irish low cost carrier's hiring/paying practice. I appreciate - but stand to be corrected - that they ask their new FOs to pay for their TR and living expenses. After TR completion you are not contracted by them but by BC. In economic terms, you are outsourced. FOs do not receive any wage for their base and line training, and supervision. It is only after that that they pay a wage AND since you are not employed by the company they can lay you off rather easily, if needed, or give you unpaid leave. Day Dreamer, my dear friend, and Raffe69, telling me "to wake up to the realities of life and the way this industry works," please allow me to give you my two cents worth, that is just a :mad: joke. From a business point of view pretty smart though.

Lastly, I suppose I did not make my point clear enough which probably also causes some bad feelings around here against me. Ideally, I would like to see the company to pay for a TR in full, plus the MCC. However, I would agree to a bond scheme where the company puts out the money and one signs a contract to stay a few years. That would be a fairer share of risk between both parties, as in the past many people just took the rating and left after only a few months. That cannot be right either. What I am totally against is an employment situation where the company is not willing to take the slightest of all risks. But as long as people give in there will be no change.

Good luck to everyone.

[5 RINGS]

couldn't agree more Stefair...

BTW, I was on full salary from day one, TR paid, bonded for some time...and guess what I feel loyal to that company & will do my utmost to make it work...

wouldn't be the same story if I had to pay for my TR...

Finally, how many accountants are asked to bring their own PC & softwares at work nowadays???

[Raffe69]

Stefair,

I must reiterate my point, that SSTR's are not new. I was in no way stating that your comments were wrong, I just supported the points made by Day Dreamer and you have sound reasoning in your response.

However we can all say, we should not do this or that, we should stick together, we should hold out to get the companies to pay. It just will not happen anymore until we get to a situation that there is a dire shortage of pilots and companies realise they need to fund training again.

But will this happen. Unlikely! Because there are enough people who are prepared to self fund to move forward quicker.....if they are lucky to get a job and this has been happening for over 2 decades.

Finally, I just think we might be moving away from the point of this thread.

[portsharbourflyer]

Again, points I have made in the past, just because a company is offering a training bond doesn't mean the terms and conditions are necessarily good.

Stefair, I assume you are single with no family commitments because for most of the turboprop jobs out there that offer full "training bonds" the salary is not something that you can support a family on. It is the appalling bond arrangements with low salaries amoung the turboprop operators which are encouraging Self Sponsored type ratings on jets.

Five Rings, sounds as though you were very lucky to get a company offering a training bond and a decent salary, the two rarely co-exist and ideally that is how every job should be, but this is not an ideal world and I can only think of a handful of operators that offer such a deal.

Ryanair, Pilots working through Brookfields are "contract pilots" (HMRC may call them disguised employees but that is another matter) as such many of them are actually able to write off the expense of the rating against tax, also if routing the payments though a limited company then they may only be paying 19/20% tax, so dispite the insecurities of the deal, there are a few hidden advantages.

Remember everyones circumstances are different and every deal is different, not all SSTR are bad and not all training bonds are good.

Back to SSTR, I knew one guy that had self funded a BAE111 rating to get a job in his day, that shows how long self funded ratings have been around.