How is your company doing?

[Cecco]

Hi to all, I fly a citation in a small airtaxi company in Switzerland and it has become REALLY quiet in the last weeks...yes, I am concerned that my company might fold. How is it in your company? I'm new in business aviation so I'm wondering if it has ever been as bad as it is now (e.g after 09/11)?

[falcon50flyer]

My company, a USA based diversified multinational manufacturing firm operating 6 Part 91aircraft has definately slowed way back. I'd say that our flying is off 15% since Sept. And we're one of the company's that have been described as "doing well".

The September market crash flipped the switch. Everywhere I go, things are showing sighs of the slow down. Less traffic on the freeway, fewer people in the stores. I was at KTEB a couple of times last week, and aircraft movements were slow (for Teterboro) The ramp at Jet Aviation was maybe at 2/3 capacity.We even got a visual approach from 15 miles out! I can't even remember the last time that happened, and I've been in this biz for a long time!

[powerstall]

Used to fly for a corporate outfit in SE Asia, had a chance to chat with an old co-worker and found out that some of the contracts were not renewed due to fewer and fewer flights and charters.... :(

[Chinchilla.612]

Hiya Cecco,

Can't speak for other operators, but I was flying CJ's for a UK AOC company until 3 weeks ago when the company stopped trading.

Hope it goes better for your company.

Chinchilla.

PS.....anyone know of any jobs going, as I'm still looking?!

[hawker750]

I think anyone who says things are OK are either lying or selling £1 for 80p.I have seen 4 recessions since 1974 and this beats the lot especially for the speed at which it happened. Until 07 October all reasonably OK, may be 10% down but one could live with that. Then it was like somebody switched the lights out for about 3 weeks. It IS getting a bit better now.If everbody starts selling £1 for 80p then we will ALL go out of business. If we are sensible then the strong will survive, that is why we are in a free market economy.#Good luck all, batten down the hatches it is going to be very stormy.

[Phil Brockwell]

It's crap, September 190 hours on 3 aircraft, October 146 hours, and I think we are doing better than most.

November is looking better (80 hrs booked so far), but it's cut throat, flights that were going for 13-14k 2 months ago are going for 10,500 this week.

Everyone pray for good snow so that the ski season brings a bit more flying.

If the ski season doesn't bring in more revenue then I think mergers will be on the cards, and we all know that means "restructuring" and redundancies.

Phil

[hawker750]

PhilCutting your prices by that amount (25%) is ludicrous. The genuine profit in this industry is about 5-7% of turnover. That is in a good year, not too many diversions or tecnical problems. You are going out for a net 15-20% loss.The next guy will undercut you even more, not a good scenario.

[Phil Brockwell]

Hawker,

I didn't drop, that's the price I lost it to. We're taking a view on demurrage, and layover costs, but the hourly is still the same.

Phil

[hawker750]

PhilI am glad to hear it. We have to try and maintain rates or it is a slow death. Cutting rates will just cause a price spiral and if and when the market normalises clients will moan that they are paying proper prices again!

[Phil Brockwell]

Hawker,

You know it's going to get dog eat dog, it's hard to keep it sensible when you have 50 people who rely on you to pay the mortgage / feed the kids / pay for lapdances etc etc, however you are absolutely correct that we should keep it sensible - not everyone will though, and they will probably be the first to go unless they have deep pockets.

Phil

[Deeko01]

Yes it's tough when even operators with bigger aircraft go out at prices cheaper than your own light jets, but yes l am starting to tire of the undercutting action going on, some wont make it through this..........

[hawker750]

deekYou say some w'ont make it through, I think you are wrong, sustitute "a lot" for "some". It is going to be terribly sad to see good companies fail or just say "I give up "

[x933]

It's been up and down. Last few weeks have been quite busy but there's been periods when it's been eerily quiet.

The useful thing about competitors going under (And I mean that in the nicest possible way - it's not something i'd wish on anyone) is it sustains the stronger companies - not to mention owners that are left without management companies (EBJ bought it 3wks ago and from what i've heard most, if not all of the aircraft have found new homes). At the end of the day the market is pretty brutal at the minute - and brokers are wising up to this.

"Hello? Used to go to (EBJ/Planechartering/xxx)? Certainly, we'd be happy to help..."

[OOOHAAAH]

so it wasnt you then Phil ??, spill the beans as we lost it too. This practise is going to cause casualties, free market or not. We should stick together and price realistically, brokerds may learn the real price of buying charter and maybe we can all maintain a slice of the cake to keep the staff paid

[merlinxx]

Some of you have been around for some considerable time, and have built your reputations, punters may move from you for a cheaper option, but they'll always crawl back. Keep it going folks, you are the essense of this business:ok:

[Cecco]

So if a company folds and the owner of an a/c is left without management company, then a/c is taken over by a new company, are the pilots of the old company of that particular aircraft also taken over by the new operator (your EBJ example)?

What does a typical owner-operator management contract look like (owner pays all a/c involved costs such as maintenance, parking/hangar fees, company pays pilot's salaries)?

[emmad]

In the USA there are a few (and very few) companies that are in a very strong cash position. They are using their strength to force out the weaker operators...and the strategy appears to be working.

When this is all over (whenever that is???) the strong players will be the survivors. Based on the current number of dirtbag operators in the US then I don't think this is a bad thing.

[A Pandy]

We are still busy flying all over North America as well as Central America. In fact I think we are one of the few flight departments that is currently hiring.
The big change for us is that each flight request has to be vetted for cost and necessity.
Like Falcon 50 I was in Teterboro a few weeks ago and it was probably the quietest I have seen it in 10 years.

[Cecco]

Any idea how business jet companies can survive, if, let's suppose, demand is way below standard for a certain period; e.g 6 months. I don't know all the financial sources of my company but I thought as a comparison of hotels, where the tourists stay away in an entire season for one reason or another. The infrastructure still must be maintained (admittingly that's less expensive than a/c maintenance), employess paid etc. regardless whether paying guests are there or not. What could the biz jet companies do? Imposing an "unpaid leave" on the employees for a certain period, reducing expenses (of course, I don't want that to happen...)?

[Chinchilla.612]

Cecco,
To answer for the EBJ example, although some of the aircraft were taken on by other operators only about 1 in 9 of the crew were taken on with them.
Or to put it another way .... 3 of the guys in total.
Hope your company fares it better than mine did.
Chinchilla.

[CaptainProp]

I guess it all depends on how profits were used during times of good business. Were they invested into the company's infrastructure and spent on sourcing new markets and costumers etc preparing for worse times ahead, or did the owners cash out most of the profits to pay their 3rd (4th?) home, cars, wife's shopping trips etc etc... ?
It looks like large cabin (challengers, falcons, Gs) are doing slightly better under the current market conditions then the Citation/Lear operators. Maybe less competition and undercutting in this segment?

Good luck to all!

CP

[1 to go]

If there are any Legacy pilots looking for a job, I may be able to help.
Please PM me

[BelArgUSA]

Was watching USA TV News on CNNI today.
About the US economy...
xxx
Apparently the heads of GM, Ford and Chrysler went to Washington DC...
Obviously, to beg and cry for money - a few billions - in short, nothing much -
They went to KDCA with their private Gulfstreams or BBJs...
Beggars in corporate jets.
Frankly, they could not afford a first class ticket Northwest Airlines from Detroit.
xxx
Frankly, I do not mind if GM, Ford and Chrysler disappears.
Replace them by assembly lines for Japanese, German or French cars under licence.
No objection against a BMW 320 build in a Detroit plant.
And replace your Gulfstreams and BBJs with a Piper Navajo...
xxx
:oh:
Happy contrails

[CaptainProp]

Yep, but so far no solution for them from Washington. Will be interesting to see what happens next.

CP

[Energetic Pilot]

We are operating XLS and CJ out of southern Germany and have a 70% decrease in bookings....
I think the big ships are doing better...

[inner]

With high's and low's. In oct i flew 70h , this month only 20h. But i guess that's typical for bizz industry.

[aviatn]

It appears to be rather sad out there.
Vista is making people redundent, (Challenger crew)
I myself have to look as well.
I am Lear60 rated with a Canadian and JAR ATPL.
Any news would be appreciated.

[Markus109]

Indeed it is very quit out there and i think the big bang was not even there yet.
Heard today that Tag aviation lost 5 aircrafts the last days.

I am wondering where the planes went all for sale?

Greets

[dan1165]

Aviatn , are you sure for the Vistajet Challenger fleet ? :ooh:

[FLEXJET]

I know at least one aircraft lost at Tag (a brand new twin engine large cabin).
It looks like the "owner" was not able to finance the aircraft anymore.

May I suggest to post a specific thread about flight department, broker or charter companies closures so we can have a trend and a kind of overview?

[Vanpilot]

I did it a while back and old Duck Rogers got it a twist about it.:ok:

Not saying I was right and that we all want to know whats going on out there. Guess he just doesn't give a "Duck"

:}

My company fly mid size jets and things have slowed down alot:bored:

[Markus109]

Flexjet,

was that large twin engine aircraft a Cl 605?

Greets

[Vanpilot]

I take your point. Mr Monkey.:}



But, it does take someone to ask out loud the questions that most of us are thinking about.

Ps. only the wife gets to call me arrogant.;)

[FLEXJET]

was that large twin engine aircraft a Cl 605?


No Markus109, not a Bombardier one.
Was the 605 you mentioned supposed to replace a VP- 604?

[FL480]

Maybe a F2TH then ?

[EatMyShorts!]

Dont't tell me the 2000EASy of the Icelandic owner was sold off? What about the crew?

[FLEXJET]

Dont't tell me the 2000EASy of the Icelandic owner was sold off? What about the crew?

I was not thinking about this black F2TH EASy. I didn't see it for sale neither.

[Duck Rogers]

How about it Mr Duck?



There's a difference between reporting the collapse of a company and hastening or causing their demise by whispering unsubstantiated gossip. We have no problem whatsoever with the former. Perhaps people would be less inclined to criticise moderation of the latter if their jobs were lost as a result of our allowing such threads to run? Damned if we do, damned if we don't but I for one don't want to be known as someone who allowed a perfectly good operator to go under and people lose their livelihoods because I didn't intervene in a case of Internet Tourette's.

As a wise man once said "Never criticise someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Then you'll be a mile away and still have their shoes".

Spunky. As you are clearly someone who understands the difference you might like to do the honours and start a thread.


Duck

[Flintstone]

The black 2000 is still there and doing fine.

[EatMyShorts!]

I was not thinking about this black F2TH EASy. I didn't see it for sale neither.Glad to hear that.

[Privatejetbroker]

TAG have about 40 aircraft bringing in management fees on the G-REG alone, and god knows how many on the Spanish & Swiss AOCS.

I don't think they'll be shedding too many tears about one F2TH LX that didn't end up joining the fleet!

PJB

[tallinnman]

As this thread is already up and running and its current content is accurately portaying the charter market, why start a new one for the 'tourettes' brigade.

I'd also like to ask the aircraft brokers what's happening in their markets?

It appears there are large numbers of aircraft for sale and prices have dropped significantly.

Doesn't seem that long ago that an XL was sold by the time it was listed and the big tin was off the chart.

[Energetic Pilot]

do you know a company that ist still doing fine in spite of the crisis? I mean charter companies?!