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The SSK
13th Nov 2008, 10:10
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum.

As far as my French goes, it seems to be in protest against the proposed raising of the retirement age to 65. Baffled. I thought pilots got militant about the lowering of retirement age.

What's it all about?

I'm proud of you
13th Nov 2008, 10:29
This is on the travel agents private page

OTHER SUBJECTS National Pilots' Strike from 14 to 17 November 2008
French airline pilots? unions have unanimously called a four-day strike from Friday 14 November at one minute past midnight to Monday 17 November at midnight, to protest against changes to the retirement age currently under discussion in the French Parliament (changing from 60 to 65).
Air France is expecting very severe disruptions to its operations. As things stand, the approximate estimation for Air France for Friday 14 November is the cancellation of half its long-haul flights from Paris and the same for medium-haul flights. More cancellations to long-haul flights are expected as the strike progresses.
Information will be updated as the situations evolves.

nuclear weapon
13th Nov 2008, 11:02
Going on strike is a national sport in which if it were to qualify for olympics the French would win gold medals even without attending.

captjns
13th Nov 2008, 11:12
Flyers beware... when the airline goes on strike, the lambs (ATC) are sure to follow... and without notice.:ugh:

sud747
13th Nov 2008, 11:57
Nuclearweapon

Your Consideration About The French Are Absolutly Besides The Point In This Forum.

If You Want We I Can Give You Some Exemples About Your Culture And Behaviour But It Would Be Very Inapropriate In This Forum.

So Why Don't You Log On To Another Website For That Matter???

Moderators Moderate Please

IB4138
13th Nov 2008, 12:02
Neighbour was due to travel from Malaga to Dubai via CDG on AF tomorrow.

He was advised yesterday of the strike and his agent has switched him to LH/Spanair. Despite the strike being said to be over on Monday, his return flights next Friday have been switched to Star Alliance as well. His agent does not trust the French to have fully resolved their dispute by then.

londoneasyjetboi
13th Nov 2008, 12:04
So you are denying the that the French go on strike MANY times a year??? In all different occupations?

We are talking about the same République française arent we?

Take a chill pill, its just a bit of fun!

autobrake3
13th Nov 2008, 12:09
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?

Finals19
13th Nov 2008, 12:20
French unionisation and old school labour relations have always meant that they are prone to striking more than the Brits. Its a whole different mindset IMHO, but in the current climate with traffic loads declining on a daily basis and airlines losing money left right and centre, one has to question whether Air France can suffer this? The government bailing them out is not something that can be endured for any period of time at the moment.

It sounds like a re-play of Alitalia :eek:

lederhosen
13th Nov 2008, 12:28
The clocks do seem to run differently in France. We all know the arguments in favour and against. Fact is that nearly all countries have come into line on age 65.

Maybe one of the many well informed french pilots on this site can explain rationally what this is all about. A four day strike at what seems short notice seems a bit over the top. It is stretching disbelief that it can be unanimous as some pilots clearly have a lot to gain.

Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.

Me Myself
13th Nov 2008, 15:35
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?



Autobrake3,
You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh.

More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago.
A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !!
The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!!

Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ???
The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place.

Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with.

It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either.

Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT :
All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ).
Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees.

Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.

Precisely my point.

Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands.

In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right.
The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow :
-" I am going to screw you big time "
-People clearly not relishing the prospect
-People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now.
- Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned.
- People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted.
- When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start.
- People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start.
- Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again.
- Both parties claim landslide victory over other party.
- Life goes on as usual until next crisis.

atakacs
13th Nov 2008, 16:32
I'm bemused that no one mentioned that the decision they are fighting against is optional retirement at 65 (i.e. both cabin crew and pilots can retire latter if they so wish but the current retirement rules, procedures and compensation are still in place).

One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation.

FWIW

757flyer
13th Nov 2008, 16:45
is it not a european law ? anti age discrimination law?

Me Myself
13th Nov 2008, 17:03
I'm bemused that no one mentioned that the decision they are fighting against is optional retirement at 65 (i.e. both cabin crew and pilots can retire latter if they so wish but the current retirement rules, procedures and compensation are still in place).

One might object that it's a step towards eventually changing the retirement age but at this stage there is no such proposal. And there is a strong minority of pilots who is very much pleased by this new regulation

Very good point but this wasn't the case only a few days ago. Apparently, it took a lot of bargaining to reach what I would qualify as an acceptable agreement. As always in France, this has been done at the last hour when all form of trust has been lost. Too late now to call the whole thing off. nothing but a bloody waste !!
In a normal country, all this should have taken place over a reasonably long period of time to allow some form of peace and reason. In France, it had to happen during the summer when no one is watching hoping that it'll do the trick. Well, it doesn't by all account.

Air France chairman was on radion trying to explain something that is totally out of his hands.
Here is a clear case of a minority poking the snake pitt with a stick and reaping out the benefits looking like a bunch of f.....g angels. Beauty :=:ugh:

hetfield
13th Nov 2008, 17:03
is it not a european law ? anti age discrimination law?

Yes it is! But judges are somewhat strange thinking people, sometimes. At least to say in Germany. The law is 65 there but for example LH contracts say 60. Until now all court cases have benn lost by pilots who want to fly over 60.

Judges had safety concerns as main argument.

Funny, Sub-Companies of LH like Ctyline and LH-Cargo don't have the 60-Limit....

:ugh:

admiral ackbar
13th Nov 2008, 18:10
Quote:
Air France striking over retirement age ? No surprise there considering the fat retirement package that comes with the old world pay and conditions they enjoy in their protected environment. Who would want to continue beyond 60 ?

Autobrake3,
You seem to know something I don't. A fat retirement package ??? I wished !!! it is nothing but a laugh.

More than 80 % of AF pilots voted against retirement beyhond 60 almost 2 years ago.
A very small but extremely active group of pilots called PNT65 ( in and outside AF ) with their own agenda ( like fourth wive, alemonied to their ears or no life ) lobbied (very effectively I have to say,) while SNPL was embroiled in its usual constant and useless bickering with, crowning moment, the recently elected chairman handing out his resignation at the beginning of summer after only a few weeks in office, leaving a huge void that was never filled. The " PNT 65" group had a field day lobbying parliament with no one challenging their claims as no election was held until " La rentrée " or end of summer holliday. If you've not lived a typical french " rentrée " then you've missed out on life !!
The newly elected board is made of an interesting mix starting with its chairman, clearly in favor of 65, being overruled by his council who just voted the strike. This is the very man we will see on TV explaining, serious as a heart attack, why the pilots are on srike. Don't say a word.............I know !!!

Now as to the reasons of the strike : Back a couple of weeks ago, in the middle of the night, the french parliament voted an amendment pushing retirement age to 65 after the Transport Secretary, in a letter dated December 2007, swore the rule would never be changed unless talks were held between the government, the pilots and the airlines. No such talks ever took place. If that isn't back stabbing then what is !!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60. KLM at 56 and Lufthansa at...... 56 when the law in Germany says 67 ???
The french law doesn't allow AF to have its own collective agreement to by pass that bill. This would be regarded as discrimination. Hence the strike being the only way to try to oppose this bill. Air France would have signed such an agreement with both hands, there would have been no strike and exept for a hanfull, everybody would have walked out happy. They never showed any interest in having pilots over 60 and always very clearly said it. As an employer, they can only stick to the law. They are clearly being punished for something they haven't done and were never interested in having in the first place.

Young F/O's are pissed as hell and it doesn' really matter wether senior captains strike or not, they won't have a copilot to fly with.

It is the worst timing for a strike. I never saw a good one either.

Now, I'm sure this forum will be in no shortage of people explaining how very fitt and fantastic they are at 63 and how they prove it 5 times day to their nearest and dearest after a 14 hours night flight; how the french , once again, have lost the plot BUT :
All it comes to is , a minority deciding for a clearly decided majority and the Governement lying its toush off ( I know, nothing new ).
Unfortunatly, the reaction will me matching the outrage with dire consequences for the airlines and their employees.

Quote:
Ironically Air France as an employer benefits if older and more expensive pilots are forced to retire at 60 or earlier. This was after all the reason age 60 was sponsored by the large american airlines in the early days.
Precisely my point.

Short notice ?? In this case they were given 3 weeks notice. Hardly rushed wouldn't you say ?? No airline in its right mind is going to herald a strike 3 weeks in advance facing the very real risk to see booking cancelations by the thousands.

In the newt few days, the governement will come out looking as innocent as a virgin claiming they were offering all kind of sweeteners, which will probably be right.
The idea the french have of negociating goes as follow :
-" I am going to screw you big time "
-People clearly not relishing the prospect
-People stop working disrupting other people's life which isn't exactly a picnic right now.
- Governement says again " I am going to screw you even harder than originally planned.
- People even more cranky disrupt even more by which time hoodle of money has been wasted.
- When governement assesses situation as having reached its " bargaining point " agrees to give all it was prepared to give from the start.
- People walk away with everything they were ready to accept from the start.
- Strike takes place anyway as airlines have already canceled flights and passengers gone to other airlines........never to be seen again.
- Both parties claim landslide victory over other party.
- Life goes on as usual until next crisis.

This kind of work-environment politics/soap opera/petty intra-corporate bickering is why the French economy will never get out of the crapper. The economy has been going up for 15 years globally and the situation in France has stayed static since the early 90's. Can you imagine what a global recession will do them?

But the French know best and refuse to listen, especially directives that come from the EU (they pick and choose what they want the EU to be, as long as it is in their favour).

After living there for 6 years and going back home, I can't say I miss the inefficiency, refusal to listen, strike-a-day mentality of french workers but it is mostly the refusal, nay, active resistance to change that they show. Quite sad actually...

And not directed to the poster I quoted But Capitalizing Every First Letter Of Your Words Is Incredibly Annoying And Useless...

Tabarnak do they need a kick in the ass...

Me Myself
13th Nov 2008, 18:37
And apart from venting might I be as bold as asking.............what the f...k is your point regarding this particular topic ???
Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!! :ugh:

The economy has been going up for 15 years globally and the situation in France has stayed static since the early 90's. Can you imagine what a global recession will do them?


Since you've just arrived from the planet Krypton after a very long absence let me feel you in with the latest :

- Subprimes
- Ninja loans
- Trillions of $ and CAN $ of credit card debt. debtors unable to pay principal.
- 8 millions home reposession to take place in the US in 2009 alone
- Thousands of jobs lost in the financial industry alone, more to come elsewhere.
- Retail industry about to go tits up
- Xmas won't be all that merry and jolly

The economy has been going up for 15 years :}......................and came down with a very loud thudddddddddddddddddddddddddddd !!!!

BYALPHAINDIA
13th Nov 2008, 19:04
Quote
A four-day pilots' strike, starting tomorrow, will ground at least half Air France flights. No sign of anything in R&N, nor in Airlines & Airports, nor in the French forum.

Reply
Probably because about 90% of us are not french = So it doesn't affect us.

sud747
13th Nov 2008, 19:12
Yes I really like where I live.
And at least my name is not Dover, Ben Dover...

rageye
13th Nov 2008, 19:27
The news is that the French government has the intention to skip the 60 years age limit in JAR-FCL-3 for the French pilots in 2010.

Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65.

Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike?

Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes.
The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more...

springbok449
13th Nov 2008, 19:28
I dont know why people wish to fly till they are 65...? 60 is already too old for me if I was to have it my way I would retire at 50...

Bring on retirement especially after the way aviation has changed since 9/11...

BYALPHAINDIA
13th Nov 2008, 19:37
I agree 'Springbok' To be honest some of might not even make '50' at this Economical rate.

So to reach 65 or whatever may be a thing of the past??

I don't know how it can still be enjoyable after 40 + years??

Longhitter
13th Nov 2008, 19:40
Does the whole possibility-of-retiring-at-65 thing have something to do with the fact that the french pension fund for pilots and cabin crew (CRPN) is desparately short of cash? The number of retirees is steadily growing since people retire very early while the number of people working sort of remains constant. The french government has been introducing all kinds of measures to stop the bleeding (like forcing foreign airlines to employ their personnel based in France under french contracts, paying into the CRPN), raising the retirement age is another one.

Any thoughts?

skyloone
13th Nov 2008, 19:42
Can anyone explain to me what better knowledge a court has over the tens of thousands of hours of research by industry related medical experts and other parties (german ones included) that spent years checking the safety and viability of the 65 age rule. Sounds a bit like another country using the " lets make a rule, ignore it but make sure its enforced elswhere". The EU gets less democratic & more third world..... again....

Me Myself
13th Nov 2008, 20:00
Air France pilots are highly dependant on the French state pension scheme. The state pension is not going to pay any pilot at age 60 when they are legally allowed to fly until age 65.

Don't you think that's a worthy case for a 4-day strike?

Their blue Dutch company still has age 56 as retirement age (and they intend to keep it that way), but these guys have a well funded pension scheme and are independent of state pension schemes.
The gap between the French and Dutch is going to widen more...

I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts.

Longhitter
13th Nov 2008, 20:00
Skyloone,

It's not only about better knowledge, it's a rules game. The EU sets a framework, individual countries can be more restrictive if they want. Don't know how it is in Germany in particular, but in Holland a certain group of workers (within a certain trade, profession or company) can agree on a collective labour agreement with their employer that is more restrictive with regards to retirement age. One can legally work until 65 as a pilot, but KLM pilots have negotiated a retirement age of 56. The collective labour agreement is co-signed by the government, once the government is satisfied that enough money is being paid into the pension fund by pilots and their employer. The possibility of retiring at 65 is not an obligation to do so! The only binding rule is that you cannot work as an airline pilot after 65.

Quite a lot of KLM-retirees go on working for other companies either because they think it's fun or to pay for their third alimony... :}

lederhosen
13th Nov 2008, 20:00
If the motivation for the strike is that people in Air France will ultimately be forced to work to 65 by the pension rules as Rageye says, then I can understand a bit better what this is about.

I know this issue has led to strikes in the railways in France. Is this really the issue?

As an aside there is nothing unusual about laws being passed in the middle of the night. I don't think that is a relevant objection.

On the other hand if people can work until 65 if they want to but are not forced to, then I cannot see there will be much sympathy.

hetfield
13th Nov 2008, 20:24
Can anyone explain to me what better knowledge a court has over the tens of thousands of hours of research by industry related medical experts and other parties (german ones included) that spent years checking the safety and viability of the 65 age rule. Sounds a bit like another country using the " lets make a rule, ignore it but make sure its enforced elswhere". The EU gets less democratic & more third world..... again....

At least to say, I can't.

It's not a matter of safety, it's obviously a matter of unions/polticians/companies.

ZBMAN
13th Nov 2008, 20:34
I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts. Today 21:42

+1

CRPN isn't short of cash (for now), and it isn't a state pension. It is a very complicated matter, and contributors would be well advised not to jump to conclusions.

Krueger
13th Nov 2008, 20:42
The possibility of retiring at 65 is not an obligation to do so! The only binding rule is that you cannot work as an airline pilot after 65.

That was what the PRO65 guys thought when they lobbied in Portugal. However the law came out as an obligation to work until 65 (well, you can retire before but they take a big chunk of your retirement pay away), because the social security saw a nice oportunity to squeeze some rich pilots.

And that is what is going to happen in France if they don't fight back. I see a lot of complaints from our british colleagues, but the rest of the world is not to blame if you let your T & C's go down the toilet.

Check Six, Krueger...:ok:

Longhitter
13th Nov 2008, 20:44
CRPN might not be very short of cash now (last thing I heard was minus 93 million euro this year), but they will be in the very near future. This situation is not unique for France, since most of the pension funds overthere will drown due to the ageing population (as will their social security and healthcare systems).

admiral ackbar
13th Nov 2008, 21:18
And apart from venting might I be as bold as asking.............what the f...k is your point regarding this particular topic ???
Yeah mate, rue St Catherine looks real slick for sure !!!

I'm sorry I thought I was dealing with reasonably intelligent people in here in that I wouldn't have to draw a picture...Most developed countries' workers understand that going on strike all the time is detrimental to their business in the long run. When the only dialog you understand is arguing instead of compromise you get nowhere fast.

I will take the Canadian economy any day of the week over the French one so don't really understand your swipe at Montreal's main street, although if you are French I could understand if it doesn't meet your aesthetic standards of Parisian beauty...

And all the stuff you listed (while I agree that Canada will be affected as much as anyone else, 15 years of government surpluses give you maneuvering room that France doesn't have) is US-centric. You do know that Canada is a separate country right?

So French pilots oblivious to pissing off customers due to internal hissy fits and jealousy really doesn't get my sympathy when I am stuck in the worst airport in Europe, CDG, for hours while they play their little games. Clear enough for ya?

Now where is that diagram...

Me Myself
13th Nov 2008, 21:22
As an aside there is nothing unusual about laws being passed in the middle of the night. I don't think that is a relevant objection.

On the other hand if people can work until 65 if they want to but are not forced to, then I cannot see there will be much sympathy.

Before the amendment was passed..............in the middle of the night without anyone being aware of it and nothing, despite governement reassurances, having been discussed ( I'd say this is very wrong ) AF pilots were considered as being dismissed and walked away with a lump summ equal to about 9 months of the last salary............tax free.
The amendment requilified all this as you would guess as it would have been regarded as a volontary dismissal. All of sudden, because of a very small group, you find yourself having to pay taxes to allow a handfull of guys to carry on til 65 !! Sorry, it's just not on, even if we're not " forced
" to carry on til 65.
From what I heard, offers were made at the last minute to guaranty that nothing would be changed for those chosing to leave at 60. Unfortunatly, this came too late. Even if pilots were showing up for work tommorrow, half the flights have been canceled anyway.
This charade is the whole french government and its croonies responsability. AF had nothing to do with it.
There is a solution to this :
1/ Get a life
2/ Stay married to the same woman

Retirement age for other people was pushed to 70 , on a volontary basis !!! . Do you think people want to work to such a ridiculous age ??? More than 70 % of the poulation is opposed to this.
We should now believe, after decades of social progress that work is " fun " and that we should carry on working instead of travelling and enjoying what's left of life after 30 + years or sometimes much more on a job.
Trillions have been pumped into financial institutions but when it comes to people you're told to work til 70 ??? This is just a bloody farce.

Me Myself
13th Nov 2008, 21:25
So French pilots oblivious to pissing off customers due to internal hissy fits and jealousy really doesn't get my sympathy when I am stuck in the worst airport in Europe, CDG, for hours while they play their little games. Clear enough for ya?


Try LHR, you shan't be disapointed. I am saddened to have to go to bed without your sympathy. Shattering ! Had I had the time, I would have explained the merits of negociation, collective agreement and keeping your word. A tad old fashioned I know.
John Howard is free, just been recently sacked if you're interested in poor social relationships.

KitKat747
13th Nov 2008, 21:41
Just to add my two pence worth; the trains are also on strike in France on Friday so it will be pretty difficult getting around in France on public transport.

Flight Detent
14th Nov 2008, 01:40
Don't I recall an AF pilots threat to strike a little while ago when the authorities tried to bring in "English only" in French airspace/airport environments!

And, believe it or not, whilst I was there, based in Paris, operating for AAI under an AF contract, just before 9/11 I believe, our two 747 Classics were painted all white (as they normally are on short term contracts), and AF maintenance was organizing to get both their tails (only) painted in AF colours, since the contract looked like going on for some time.
Amazingly, the AF pilots threatened to go on strike if the AAI airplanes were painted in AF colours.

We were surprised, though it didn't concern us either way, but it was the point of many jokes about AF pilots after that!

..things one remembers...

Cheers...FD...:)

ibelieveicanfly
14th Nov 2008, 03:48
That the ones who "invited the air molecules",one of the best paid pilots,for sure the ones who worked the less so it is completely unacceptable that they work after the age of 60,of course.

TopBunk
14th Nov 2008, 05:10
MeMyself wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BA, although the law in the UK says 65 still retires its pilots at 60.

Yes you are wrong!

BA allows the option for pilots to work to 65, to force retirement at 60 would be against the law. Not that the laws seem to bother the French:rolleyes:

PPRuNeUser0215
14th Nov 2008, 07:25
Myself being French (me) but not working for AF, I do not particularly want to work until 65 BUT I want to have the option to. Believe it or not, some people really enjoy flying, turning up for work in a nice place, with nice colleagues, all that at the beginning of a great day (I enjoy the days off spent on my boat too). Ok it may not be that common on airliners but that as nothing to do with age, it's just something I have found boring already in my 30s. So being forced to retire or to continue is against my idea of a modern society.

I see nothing wrong for the individual to decide what suits him best and AF guys get my support only if they are not forcing something onto the unwilling to "agree".

I thought the "Ben Dover" joke from Sud747 was very funny :)...

Hipsway
14th Nov 2008, 09:49
Can anyone tell me if KLM out of Amsterdam are also going to be on strike for the next 4 days?

thanks

Otterman
14th Nov 2008, 10:03
No, they are not. They are flying their full schedule. No extra flights though, mutual assistance agreement between the unions.

luc
14th Nov 2008, 11:17
To Topbunk,

Very intersting point,
Are you a BA pilot?
I am a pilot working for AF. Does it mean that a pilot could choose to work until they are 65 in england? If so, do some choose to do so? in what percentage? If no one does why is that since one of the problem at the moment within AF is how many pilots would choose to carry on working beyond 60 !!!

PPRuNeUser0215
14th Nov 2008, 11:37
I am a pilot working for AF. Does it mean that a pilot could choose to work until they are 65 in england? If so, do some choose to do so? in what percentage?

Considering that this change would be fairly recent, I am not sure you can get a valid answer... For example if I was about to retire tomorrow and if from this very precise moment I had the choice to retire or continue, chances are that most likely chose to retire.

Now if I was 50, 40, 30 0r 20 years old with obviously no retirement for another 10 to 40 years, how could I know what I will really want in this so many years still to come ? Life and the world being what it is, nobody can say for sure that it is what they will want to do when the time will come...
So I say more power to the possibility of chosing... When the time to do so is here.

luc
14th Nov 2008, 11:42
what do you mean by recent? Can BA pilots carry on beyond 60 now are you talking about european law to come?

Witraz
14th Nov 2008, 11:53
I agree with Amex.
I am with BA. I am 51. Before the change in law and BA's policy I would be leaving in just over 4 years. I do not feel ready to retire at 55. Now I can stay to 65. Do I want to? I have no idea at this point in time, but it is nice to have the option. There are no pilots in BA at this time over 60, as the law was only changed a few years ago. Some retired at 55 as originally planned, some stayed just a couple of more years and retired.
Some people enjoy flying and with their respective positions and are very happy to carry on. Others find the changes and the job in whole unenjoyable. They say they cannot wait to retire. Everyone is different and has different wants in life.
If you are 33 and want to be gone by 50 I think you might be in the wrong profession. Also lifes plans change regardless of what you think you might do, marriages break down, loved ones become ill, pass away, medicals lost.
So why the disagreement. Why not accept some want to stay, others want to leave and the most important thing is having the choice to do either.

PPRuNeUser0215
14th Nov 2008, 11:59
Listen I do not work for BA (anymore. Different life, different times) but taken from My BA Pension | Simple English guide (http://www.mybapension.com/aps/home/simple_english_guide.php)
I note the following. Intended Retirement Date (IRD) The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006 gives all ground employees and cabin crew an intended retirement date (IRD) of 65.
To be confirmed of course but my point was that in any case, if BA pilots can retire at 65 then that would not have been the case for long (ie not decades) hence the little theory I have elaborated in my previous post... Hoping that I made myself clearer.

luc
14th Nov 2008, 12:20
Thank you for your answers. I am not tryimg to tell people what to do or not to do!!! starting this conversation makes me wonder why it is such a problem within AF and it seems to be going very smoothly at BA. One of the issues for us is that choices made by people when they are 60 will have a huge impact on other pilots careers. It has to be the same for your airline, no?

Witraz
14th Nov 2008, 13:09
Luc,
I have been in aviation 34 years and it is a constant rollercoaster ride. Good times, bad times and some are lucky others not. Yes these changes have impacted careers of others. However in BA there was a period where they did not employ a single pilot for 10 years. I believe less than 5% have over 30 years with the company before the 10 year gap.
So you might find you have to wait 5 years longer to a Command, but then you will be able to fly a further 10 years in your career. Will the current climate in the aviation world be more damaging in the long run or will it be short lived for aviation careers than the rule changes in retirement ages.
Wouldn't it be lovely to have a crystal ball? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I am a DEP with 20 years in BA. I have been lucky, some of my colleagues luckier. Not trying to get at anyone here, just trying to assess the situation logically.
The law changes allows one to retire now at 65. I wonder how many pilots will actually fly to this age. Again only time will tell.

luc
14th Nov 2008, 16:22
So it seems that given the same situation, French and English react differently then... wrongly or rightly, you seem to have a very fatalistic approach. I find it a little bit more ... frustrating... that a change in the law to allow some pilots to carry on working beyond 60 without at least looking into the consequences for those having a few more years to go... Thanks very much for your answers anyway.
happy flights

PPRuNeUser0215
14th Nov 2008, 22:03
Luc you got me head scratching here... You find the system which allows a choice not a good idea as opposed to the one who forces people one way or another ???

I would say the consequences of the "no choice" system more damaging than the other one as, when the time comes, it will really allows you to make your mind depending on "your very own" position in life. I, for one, very much favour not having to be imposed something which was decided by people other than myself, 20 or 30 years earlier.

I guess I have been away too long from France so I have not re adapted completely yet ;).

Viking101
14th Nov 2008, 22:49
Maybe the British people would benefit a bit by looking at how the French friends are trying to get their opinions through to the management :}

I would strongly suggest not to go on strikes that many times a year though :cool: but to have the guts to even threaten to go on strike making sure the company does not make stupid decisions is a start....

Fight for your own ones, and your members! This goes for BALPA too.........:suspect:sorry couldnt resist- it has nothing to do with this thread.

wiggy
14th Nov 2008, 23:16
Thread drift I know but having watched the French national sport from close quarters for quite a while now I'm really not sure it would work in the UK and/or for BALPA...You'd more likely end up with the UK Union leaders being lynched.

The French seem to remarkably stoical (or perhaps more correctly habituated) to the frequent shutdowns of large elements of their transport system. It seems to me that if the Paris Metro/Airlines/SNCF shut down then vast swathes of the workforce simply don't attempt to get to work - and maybe because of historical solidarity with the workers there's no comeback (though I think things may be starting to change in France).

As an example during the last Paris metro greve I tried contacting someone urgently in a Paris Office - to be told that "of course she isn't here, the metro's on strike..., she won't be back into work until the strikes have ended". Compare and contrast that with any strikes in the UK involving similar workgroups (e.g. London Underground) - in the UK workers simply have to get to work and we hear stories of people biking/walking miles into work or sleeping at their place of work.

I admire the French workers for their attitude to their bosses and politicians..but I don't think it can last and I also don't think you could transfer the tactics across the channel.

45989
14th Nov 2008, 23:20
Witraz . Nail on the head! Shame that some people can never see the wood from the trees though.......

KitKat747
14th Nov 2008, 23:49
Luc,

Why are you so against pilots having the choice to retire at an age that suits them, even if that is 65? This applies to people in other occupations as well.

Surely choice is better than having retirement forced upon you at an age decided by someone else. I do not now know how I will feel when I am 60, perhaps you already know how you are going to feel when you reach that age.

I am almost 51 and am delighted there is now a choice, before I would have had complusory retirement at 55. I do not think in 4 years time I will be ready for the scrap heap and doubt if I will feel that way when I am 60. I will have to wait and see how I feel then. I am now very happy that I will be able to continue till 65 if I want to. On the other hand perhaps my circumstances or feelings will change and I might want to retire at 60- I have a choice and nothing can be better than that.

Krueger
15th Nov 2008, 10:12
Not trying to answer in behalf of Luc, but I think is fear isn't having a choice of working until 65 but rather have the obligation to work until 65.

I can tell you that is what is going to happen in France, because the same happened in Portugal. Once the Social Security saw that this bunch of rich pilots could subsidize 5 more years the system, they made it compulsory.

You could say the pension funds could fill the gap, but what is the deficit at the BA one?

Check Six Krueger...

FougaMagister
15th Nov 2008, 10:27
I'm 100% with AMEX on this one! I'm from accross the Channel too, but work in Britain. I don't accept the idea of having to retire at 60 (i.e, in 21 years' time) if I want to carry on flying until I'm 65, because of something decided by others years before! (Then again, I've always hated being forced to do anything :} )

The bottom line, though, is a financial issue (yes, another one!): there soon won't be enough cash left in the CRPN if French-employed pilots carry on retiring at 60. Full stop. Hence the option to retire at 65. I wonder what those who strike to force something onto others would propose as a solution to this cash-flow problem? -No, increasing contributions is not an acceptable solution.

The SNPL badly needs coaching in basic economics and to step into the 21st century. In this day and age, going on strike and making millions of other people's lives difficult for 4 days is unacceptable. If anything, it shows a total lack of respect for one's customers. Also, in today's market conditions, AF pilots should feel lucky just to have a flying job!

Just one reason why I'm in no rush yet to settle back in France! And yes, I was messed about by the strike yesterday. Original flight from TLS to CDG canx, put on an ORY flight instead, having to organise my own transfer to CDG by AF coach (good job they weren't on strike!) and taking a later connecting flight to GB. Total 9 hours - but only 2.5hrs flight time! Not what you want right after your OPC/LPC!

Rant over...

Cheers :cool:

luc
15th Nov 2008, 12:56
right... where do I start?
Obviously having the choice is great!!! Who in their right mind would dispute that...
BUT have we ( we as AF pilots right now) got the choice and if yes which one????
The proposal by the government ties the age limit with how our pension is funded so basically you do what you want but if you stop at 60 there won't be enough money to pay your pension. Choice seems narrower then...
Another problem is the consequences on careers for pilots if a lot choose ( no choice anyway as I wrote earlier) to carry on working. And that is why I was trying to compare with BA. Because it seems to me that it is a problem that BA pilots would have too. from what I read, and I am not saying it is worse or better, and it is just from one BA pilot, English people are more fatalistic about it.
We here a lot of things in France about retirement age and policy for BA, KLM, Lufthansa and I wanted to see for myself.
Last thing, I find it very interesting to compare our approaches and to answer genuine questions from people in this thread but it is ... remarkable... that the only one lecturing me, AF pilots and France all together about pensions, finance, economics etc... is French.
Dear Fouga, the CRPN problem was sorted regardless of the retirement age( it is not the place to discuss this very complicated matter). The strike is partly due to the fact that the government is now ignoring the reform that had been put in place and saying that the only solution is to work longer.

greuzi
15th Nov 2008, 13:48
Getting back to the issue....

The legislation I understand was passed by the French Government. AF are legally bound to apply it?

So if confirmed, striking will not change things in that respect, but it will reduce income, profit and hurt many people in the future.

I stand to be corrected but I don't want AF to become the next Alitalia because of a petty feud about something that has already been passed by French legislators.

G

wiggy
15th Nov 2008, 13:48
- Warning thread drift - Knowing there was an AF strike on I have to ask why didn't you fly TLS-LGW with Easyjet or BA and avoid AF/ORY/CDG?

FougaMagister
15th Nov 2008, 14:55
luc - sorry, but this is the place to discuss the CRPN because it's the crux of the problem! More people retiring, fewer people contributing = less money in the pot = everybody has to contribute for longer. Basic economics, lesson 1.01.

I do understand that those who thought they could retire at 60 with a full pension don't like the idea of having to work until 65 to get it. Now, wait a minute! Working until 65 is optional, nobody's forcing you to do it. You can still retire at 60 - but if everybody does, then the CRPN will definitely be broke! Lots of other industries have had to put up the retirement age already; most people didn't want to, but (reluctantly) accepted that it had to be done. You don't need a PhD in economics to know that any reform that leaves aside the retirement age is bound to be temporary at best.

I wonder what the strike hopes to achieve anyway; Parliament has voted, the law is passed. Full stop. If one doesn't agree with it, the solution in a democracy is to vote for another political party next time, not to make millions of peoples' lives unbearable for a few days. The SNPL representatives that got interviewed were short on details; no doubt they would have had trouble explaining to the public why they still want to retire at 60 when 65 is the mandatory retirement age in most other private-sector professions! The Government went back on its word? Big deal. Better get used to it. Governments everywhere do that all the time.

In the current economic environment it doesn't show much responsibility to waste AF and the European economy as a whole millions of Euros. There hadn't been an AF pilots' strike for a long time, but one is enough to do lasting damage to the company's image. As for being French, I don't see why that means I have to agree with you. I am entitled to voice my opinion on this forum, or indeed anywhere I please.

Cheers :cool:

P.S.: wiggy - the rtn ticket to the sim and back was booked (as usual) by my company weeks ago. Also, LGW is a good 3hrs drive from my place, LHR is 2hrs!

luc
15th Nov 2008, 15:59
Fouga,

You are wrong. There are other ways to make sure that the CRPN is financially viable!!!
It was sorted. It is now a blackmail by the government linking the two ( CRPN reform amd retirement age) together!!!
And yes you are entitled not to agree with me. I wouldn't dare suggest the contrary. I just noticed that you lectured (you did,sorry!) pilots and the whole country about what you call elementary economics.
Surely AF ( therefore the pilots as well ) must be doing something right since we transformed it from a nearly dead airline into one of the largest airlines in the world in 10 years...
Bons vols à toi!!!!

Me Myself
15th Nov 2008, 17:06
Luc !!!! You are a gem !!! I would have lost patience long time ago.
I've already forgotten our fellow country man's name living on the other side of the channel but here it comes :
First, CRPNPAC isn't bleeding..........sorry, wouldn't be bleeding cash if the governement had decided to implement the bloody reform that took us 2 years to come up with, garantying full pension at age 60, and not before that, like it was the case where you could collect your pension after 25 years. This makes the fund sound over the long term precisely to ensure a safe and full retirement at 60. Odd that most of those who want to carry on are .........against the reform !!
Not enough for uncle Nicolas though who would really like to merge our (' juicy ) fund with the general system, which sure as egg, would have us work until 65 because that's the rule that applies there.
Apparently a lot of people on this thread haven't got the grip on the fact that ( most ) AF pilots do not wish to work after 65. If some fools want to work themselves to the grave, be my very guest, but do not force others to take a shovel.
As long as I do not see my contract changed, by all means do go ahead. This is the very issue of the strike.
Now, spare me all that nonsense about the travelling public's wellfare and this sickening PC.
Strike is messy and ugly, it's about yes !!! GREED !! And as Gordon Gekko and his fellow vultures in the ............errrrr City !! said " Greed is good " .
Merely applying a concept you Poms have embraced long ago ; so please spare me with your pontifying and hypocritical comments about wellfare. Defending your rights, I say again rights can be bloody at times.
There is no other option apart from...........keeping a stiff upper lip. Wrong side of the channel for that I'm afraid.

If you in the UK want to get nicked keeping your cools, then again, go right ahead. And while I'm here most of you should really get to the bottom of this, provided you are interested. People didn't wake up one morning last week saying " Gee !! Let's have some fun and make people's life miserable " This is the result of months of feud and mess where SNPL was basically........invisible and pilots too lazy to worry about something they thought was taken care of while they were suning themselves on the beach.
In the end all this is about fairness, decency and keeping one's word ( governement ) as well as respecting elected representatives (' one of which I'm not ).
Then again, if you want to live in a world where a minority of people with not representation rights can have their own agenda with parliament and impact big time on your life, then get rid of BALPA but do not mess with us !
Luc, I hope you're not too bruised mate !

Mary P.
16th Nov 2008, 07:37
French Pilots striking? Really? How unusual!

Mary

Longhitter
16th Nov 2008, 09:03
Me Myself: you forgot to mention that AF is only profitable because they have a de facto monopoly on their home market. Just wait until competition pops up that they cannot buy out or kill off by unfair competition or lobbying the french government for legal obstacles for LCCs.

Easy and Ryanair are slowly chipping away at the AF block. You will be better off if you look further into the future in stead of stubbornly hanging on to all kinds of perks that might jeopardise the future of AF. Standing up for your rights is one thing, and you are entitled to do so, but look around you in Europe: airlines (pilots included) need to be realistic as well.

Clandestino
16th Nov 2008, 10:25
Just wait until competition pops up that they cannot buy out or kill off by unfair competition or lobbying the french government for legal obstacles for LCCs.

You mean "Open Skies"? That one can't fail.

I'm baffled - the pilots are on strike and management doesn't sue the union for damages to AF brand?!? Perhaps BA should send some managers over the Channel to show French how things are done.

luc
16th Nov 2008, 14:23
to open a new terminal...

LSGG
16th Nov 2008, 19:23
ouch... this one hurts !:}

sud747
16th Nov 2008, 20:05
BA Maybe to avoid ground staff or cattering staff to strike.
Or EZ managers to increase punctuality:p

The later one is really killing me HAHAHA.

Me Myself
16th Nov 2008, 20:21
Me Myself: you forgot to mention that AF is only profitable because they have a de facto monopoly on their home market. Just wait until competition pops up that they cannot buy out or kill off by unfair competition or lobbying the french government for legal obstacles for LCCs.

Easy and Ryanair are slowly chipping away at the AF block. You will be better off if you look further into the future in stead of stubbornly hanging on to all kinds of perks that might jeopardise the future of AF. Standing up for your rights is one thing, and you are entitled to do so, but look around you in Europe: airlines (pilots included) need to be realistic as well.


I take it you're jesting right ?? You must be.
Long haul is were the money is, short haul being there to haul paxs to CDG . Where plane becomes unprofitable, then we'll train them to CDG with bullet trains starting 2010. Don't know what Easy will do about that one, maybe feed our hub ?? That would jolly nice of them.
Retirering at 60..........sxuse me !!! A perk ??? Well then BA, KLM, LH are perky porky allright. Where do I apply ??? Is this the kind of realistic you're refering to ??? I'm all for it. If your kind of realistic is Ryan Air, well then............I pass.
[QUOTE][Perhaps BA should send some managers over the Channel to show French how things are done./QUOTE]
Indeed, that would be rather drole. They'd be sent back riding a rail covered with tar and feathers.:}
As to the money lost, thanks to Lufthansa who blew the wistle on us after having been part of the deal on fixing freight prices, AF had to pay 500 Mill Euro fine to the US. LH walked out clean. I wonder if there's a name for that ? The strike wouldn't feel my piggy bank in comparison.
Surely you people can better than these lame comments about " French striking ?? Oh Mon Dieu again !! But of course " This is really becoming boring to the point of..........YAWNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnn !! Off to bed !

Jean-Lill
17th Nov 2008, 11:42
Having read all the postings, surely it is EU law that allows everyone within the EU to work until 65 as an option. Employers have to make this possible for every employee-it is the law.

What is the problem with this for AF pilots, Do they really fear the option will become something complusory? I would say that is very unlikely.

I had to retire 3 year ago aged 55 after 35 years with my company, I did not want to retire but as it was before Oct 2006 I had no option. I wish I had the options people have today, I would still be working possibly part time.

Retirement is not all it is cracked up to be, the first couple of months are fine but after that when all the gardening and decorating is finished it is a little boring.

Is it virtually impossible to find another job in France after the age of 50.

Me Myself
17th Nov 2008, 12:18
Retirement is not all it is cracked up to be, the first couple of months are fine but after that when all the gardening and decorating is finished it is a little boring.


Well jean Phil, I am sorry you feel that way. Life's bloody short and you don't get a second ride.
There are hoodle of nice things to do..................apart from gardening / decorating. Indeed, I'd be bored stiff too.
Dunno, why don't you buy yourself a 4 wheel drive and drive around Australia for a year. I assure you your outlook on retirement would change immediatly. In short get out of the house.
When I think about retirement I really get panicky I won't have the time to do all I want to do and I assure you I am not joking, I really mean it.
When I'm on my death bed I certainly won't be thinking " God, I wish I had done one more NRT ".

What is the problem with this for AF pilots, Do they really fear the option will become something complusory? I would say that is very unlikely
Sorry to difer but it is very much likely. We've learned at out peril what the governement word is worth. No more than a huge pile of dung.

KC135777
17th Nov 2008, 13:58
**When I think about retirement I really get panicky I won't have the time to do all I want to do and I assure you I am not joking, I really mean it.
When I'm on my death bed I certainly won't be thinking " God, I wish I had done one more NRT ".**

Bingo. :D
Very correct. Your sixties are the LAST truly mobile decade for the majority of people. If you work until 65, you've wasted half of it. Downhill in your seventies.
You never see a U-haul (trailer of posessions) behind a funeral limosine.
And never hear anyone on their death bed saying, "boy, I sure wish I had worked more".

:ugh: :=

KC135777

Jean-Lill
17th Nov 2008, 21:22
You don't have to be retired to enjoy life you know.

I suppose it depends on whether or not one really enjoys their employment. If I hated my job I would have been more than happy to retire as soon as possible, as it happened I liked the job but did not live for it.

The right time to retire in my opinion is when you feel it is the right time, it should not be decided by other people. We are all individuals with diffrent needs, I would have liked a few more years till possibly 60 but had no intention of working till I dropped.

Last week I went to the USA and saw a couple of flight attendants well over 70, I wonder how they would have felt if someone had told them they had wasted their lives because they had not retired in their 50's? I guess they like their jobs and prefer to work rather than retire. They looked very happy, their employer is not forcing them to work, it is their choice.

It matters not what we do in our 60's provided we are happy whether that be working or retired. Again I say it, you do not have to be retired to enjoy life.
:O

Shaka Zulu
18th Nov 2008, 08:25
Jean-Lill, how misinformed you are. A lot of American crewmembers/groundstaff need to work because there is no social backup system or pension to fall back on. Hence they work till they drop. Not because they want to but because they HAVE to

Jean-Lill
18th Nov 2008, 14:56
Shaka Zula

I am not so misinformed about USA state or company pensions schemes as you suggest. I am married into an Amercian family whom I was visiting last week.

My brother in law is a retired pilot and his wife is a current flight attendant. I will phone them this evening for confirmation on whether or not they are excluded from all USA pension schemes due to the nature of their jobs as you suggest they are. I was under the impression my bother in law was on a good pension. He retired aged 60, so I suppose that is all right.

Do you really mean people who work for USA airlines have absolutely no pension rights and have to work until they drop?

I was told USA pensions are quite good, perhaps I was misinformed, I will see this evening.

rageye
18th Nov 2008, 18:22
I am baffled at how ill informed you are. French pilots have their own pension fund called CRPNAC standing for Caissse de retraite du Personnel de l'Aviation Civile, which also includes cabin crew who in their wisdom leave at .........55. In short, french pilots, who retire at 60, subsidize cabin crew early retirement. For years the french governement has tried to merge it with the general pension system; Why ??? Because there's a lot of money in it which they'd like to lay their greedy hands on.
Check your facts.

@Me Myself: You seem to be well informed yourself. Sorry for my ignorance.

1. Can you explain how much pension the average AF pilot (let's say 30 years with the company) gets from CRPNAC and how much he or she gets from the state pension.

2. Is it reasonable to call a 4 day strike against your airline for a measure taken by your government? This strike must have cost AF/KLM tens of millions.

3. The measure taken by the government is (the intention of) raising the maximum age for a class I medical to 65 years, like in the rest of Europe.
Also the Dutch pilots have a maximum age of 65 for a class I medical and all Dutch airlines under the umbrella of AF/KLM still retire at age 56.
So, what's the problem?

australiancalou
19th Nov 2008, 08:37
I do fully agree with Me Myself on this one.
You have to know the way of thinking of these bloody French politicians.
First they call freedom when they say everybody has the right to work after 60.
Then as they control the pilot's retirement funds concentrate their efforts to lead it to bankrupt.
Afterwards it's very easy to offer pilots to join the national management retirement funds with a maximum of 50% of the inital rights.
In France man has to work 41 years to be entilled to 100% national retirement pension.
Under this age there is a drastic reduction of the pension.
So compute: You start as a pilot at 24 + 41 for full rights equal 65 for full pension. Under that you cannot even pay for your food (Doesn't mean caviar...).
You still have the right to stop working at 60 but cannot afford it.
Finally starting from the very politically correct freedom of working you finish with the very really unacceptable freedom of quiting before but with no pension...
As far as I know French is still the official diplomatic language and that means a lot concerning their curving way of thinking if that makes sense.;)

Me Myself
19th Nov 2008, 11:33
Me Myself: You seem to be well informed yourself. Sorry for my ignorance.

1. Can you explain how much pension the average AF pilot (let's say 30 years with the company) gets from CRPNAC and how much he or she gets from the state pension.

2. Is it reasonable to call a 4 day strike against your airline for a measure taken by your government? This strike must have cost AF/KLM tens of millions.

3. The measure taken by the government is (the intention of) raising the maximum age for a class I medical to 65 years, like in the rest of Europe.
Also the Dutch pilots have a maximum age of 65 for a class I medical and all Dutch airlines under the umbrella of AF/KLM still retire at age 56.
So, what's the problem?

Let's start with question 3

As Australiancalou has explained, what happened is the first stage of a plan which in the mid / long term, will see the pilots fund be merged with the general french pension fund ( Aigirc / Arco ) which by the way has lost 600 millions on the market recently !!! ( yesterday's paper )
This means 41 years at the helm and a shocking pension.
Right now, an AF pilots after 30 years gets about 30 % of his last salary.
A guy I know, retired 744 captain, gets just above 6000 Euros, before income tax after more than 30 years with AF. And I forgot to mention the lump summ equal to 9 months salary since going at 60 was regarded as furlough. You can multiply 15000 by 9, this should be just about right.
Invested at a secure 5% a year, this gives the incridible boost of ........................625 euros a month before tax.
If you think this is lavish then I'll have to reassess my set of values.
All this has been very poorly explained by French ALPA too riddled by inner tensions : The chairman and a few blokes are in favour of 65 when 65 % of the council voted against resuming work last Saturday.

If the Dutch governement is to be trusted ( not for me to say ) the french governement clearly isn't and your point on french diplomacy is right on the money. Like I have said eralier, the french government's word isn't worth more than a huge pile of dung.
They've taken us across the dance floor sending us reassuring letters saying that nothing would be done without proper negociations, german style ( Coming from Sarkozy who loathes the germans, this is really rich ) while some 95 !!! guys belonging to a very dodgy group calling itself PNT65 were lobbying parliament in favour of 65. When you have a look at the list of people who make this dubious groop of PNT 65, you see they are almost all:
- Close to retirement and scared like hell to have to walk the street in civies
- Been married just about a bezillion times
- Are ex military not having logged enough pension time with the civilian system.
There's even one who's lost his licence and only God knows why, has made this his own personal crusade. Things one do to stay away from the wife. Sometime marry the same one only 20 years younger !!!
In this paticular case, this good gentleman was even a French ALPA Vice President; an elected mole if you like.
All this talk about " personal choice " is a farce. Sorry, there are cases where your own little nostril isn't the f.....g center of the world and the law of the majority applies.
The " on a volontary basis " bit would make a wooden horse crack up with laughter. These guys are just doing the governement bidding and they either do not give a rat's ass about the consequences or worse, are not even aware of it.
In the end, all this is going to bite these gentlemen in the toush. None of them will have logged 41 years even when 65 comes, if they're not dead by then. They will have to go with the new general system and I bet ya that you'll find them pledging everlasting loyalty to French ALPA to get out of this mess, just like 60 years ago some turned into fearless and loyal resistants. Seems to run in the genes in this country.
Some have already packed their pension and will of course never be impacted by this twist of fate and will have the satisfaction of having really screwed up a lot of their former colleague's life.
It seems to me that these guys cannot accept that one ages, gets ill...........and dies. Yeap !! That's what happens as unpleasant as the prospect is.
Singing 65 like a mantra isn't going to stop them from one eating the dafodills by the roots one day.

" We " on the other hand, would like to have a life after work, the financial means to be able to do that and not choke right after parking brake has been set. I hate staying inside and don't ever mention decorating or gardening !!! It smells death.

Last, loss of money for the compagny during the strike:

AF lost 500 Mill on a fine it had to pay the US governement after it tried to fix up freight prices with several other airlines, among which Lufthansa.
Somehow our dear friends from across the Rhine started feeling the heat under their toushy and accepted the very honourable offter from the US governement to blow the wistle on us provided they walked away clean. DONE !!
AF didn't trumpet that one I can assure you .............nor did Lufthansa by the way. I still haven't found a name for this. Help ???
I am not about to loose sleep over a mere 100 Mill the strike costed the compagny after such a blunder.

Jean-Lill
19th Nov 2008, 16:47
Be myself,

thank you for the detailed reply about your pension.

I presume you mean 6000 euros AF pension per month= 72000 euros pa + 150,000 euros as a lump sum? On top of this the French state pension.

I wish I got that much after 35 years with my company.

On the subject of French state pension. Currently one has to contribute 40 years to get 100% pension, am I correct in thinking the proposal is to increase the contributing years by just 1 year to 41?

If you think the French state pension is poor you should look at the UK one, they have to contribute 44 years to get approximately £5100 PER ANNUM .Everyone gets the same regardless of what their earnings in employment were.

Kelly Smunt
19th Nov 2008, 17:27
6000 euros is not that much when you compare that to some BA pilots with 30 + years in the company at age 55 retiring on £ 120,000 a year.(18000 euros a month on last years exchange rates)
with a tax free lump sum payment of about 500.000 euros.
Best of luck to you.

KitKat747
19th Nov 2008, 18:03
Kelly

Where do you get your figures from about BA pensions?

Me Myself
20th Nov 2008, 12:41
I presume you mean 6000 euros AF pension per month= 72000 euros pa + 150,000 euros as a lump sum? On top of this the French state pension.

I wish I got that much after 35 years with my company.

On the subject of French state pension. Currently one has to contribute 40 years to get 100% pension, am I correct in thinking the proposal is to increase the contributing years by just 1 year to 41?


The increase by one year pissed a lot of people off since it will force them to work until.......70.........;on a volontary basis and of course in crappy jobs that pay little money and bad working conditions. Not much to be thrilled about.
The State pension is the same for everybody, pilot, doctor or cleaning lady. The " professional " fund is what makes the difference.........when you have one.
The figure I gave you is the whole package, State+CRPN+lump sum.

I've just had a panic attack reading the above post regarding BA. Abdominal breathing does zippo.
Did you smoke pot all night or ar these figure for real ??

Odd that no one from Lufthansa, KLM or BA found it fitting to contribute on this thread. They must have a really good deal to stay under the radar like they're doing.

Shaka Zulu
20th Nov 2008, 13:37
It's only the APS members in BA that have chrystalized (and keep going after the 55 retirement increase); their pensions that might come close to a 100k.

Me however, I'm looking at 35years in BA with a predicted pension of 35k.(retiring age 65!!)

Times have changed. People like Kelly Smunt find it hard to acknowledge that BA is not the same as it was 15 years ago, let alone 5!!
Bitterness is all our community needs to drive T&C's further down the drainhole

Me Myself
20th Nov 2008, 13:49
It's only the APS members in BA that have chrystalized (and keep going after the 55 retirement increase); their pensions that might come close to a 100k.


Can you explain "APS members " ??

Witraz
20th Nov 2008, 13:57
Me Myself,

I am BA. Joined at 31 DEP. I am currently 51. With the revamped pension I would have left at 55 with an annual pension of about £29 000, If I get to stay until 65 that will grow to about £55 000 plus lump sum. As the pension has been messed with already, I hold no illusions that it might not be tampered with again. With the 65 retirement I have a choice whether to stay or go. The 55 retirement pension figure does not look too healthy to me.
Fortunately for me I enjoy my job and flying. I have read the comments about a life outside aviation and I do have one. I breed horses and whats more am lucky to use my job to visit ranches around the world. Ask me if I will feel the same in 5 years time? I have no idea! Only time will tell, but until then I hope I can continue to enjoy my job and my passion with the horses and continue mixing the two.
There are no guarantee's in life. My father retired after 35 years as a training captain on B707 with Air Zimbabwe. His pension is now in the zillions of dollars, just a shame it equates to worthless and he has not seen a penny for over 5 years.
Oh and if you look at the pensions offered to new recruits with BA, they are really really not very good.
So if you are fortunate to have a good pension, feel blessed and hope the powers that be will leave it intact for you to enjoy.

PS. You could be wise like me and invest seriously in horses. I get a garanteed daily return. Now if I could just change the pile of Manure into some cash :rolleyes:

Shaka Zulu
20th Nov 2008, 14:00
APS (Airways Pension Scheme)was the first setup of the pension scheme then it was reformed and the majority of members in BA at the moment are in NAPS (New Airways Pension Scheme). However NAPS has been closed to new joiners for the last 4 years or so (correct me if I'm wrong).
NAPS/APS are final salary pensions.

Any new joiners (4yrs ago till now) will be on BARP, which is a Defined Benefit Scheme. Ai the employer and employee pay a percentage of pensionable pay into a fund.
I'm in this scheme and as predicted before there is a significant reduction in forecast pension projections when you compare it with APS/NAPS.
It's the way it is....But people stare themselves blind at those individuals in BA that have been there a long time. (good for them, I won't get bitter and twisted over it)

BA is a completely different animal these days, directed by the wishes of shareholders who require wealth creation / dividence

Me Myself
20th Nov 2008, 14:42
Witraz

Thanks a lot for yor very interesting post.
Investing in horses ??? just when I lost 50 $ on donkey that was supposed to be a champion at the Melbourne cup ?? Think not although I love horses. My ( girl ) friend bet on another one because she liked the colour of the jockey's outfit.............and made 60 $ !!
There are however not very many like you, on my side of the channel anyway. Much more troubling is the way this whole affair unfolded. I've never had many doubts about France being a banana republic sometimes, but this one really takes the cake.
Thanks all for the very interesting details.

would have left at 55 with an annual pension of about £29 000, If I get to stay until 65 that will grow to about £55 000 plus lump sum. As the

How lumpy is the lump sum ??

Kelly Smunt
20th Nov 2008, 16:29
Witraz are you a Captain or First Officer ?

Kelly Smunt
20th Nov 2008, 17:47
There are I believe 3 schemes in BA : APS (figures quoted) NAPS (an inferior scheme but still good ) and BARP (the pits).If you joined in the last 4 years this is what you get.Supply and demand for Pilots.The old story.
£120,000 a year quoted was from a mate retiring 5 years ago and will be more than this now with inflation as APS is linked to RPI,Naps I think is capped at 4 %.

Witraz
20th Nov 2008, 17:58
Me Myself
Off hand I can't remember how lumpy but lumpy enough to be more than I have ever had before. Depends on what age you retire and how much you take as a percentage.
I'm too broke to bet on horses :}. I have a stallion in race training and hoping he wins enough to pay back the diesal to get him home from the racetrack. Yeah OK, I'm sure put a £1 on him in his first race.

Kelly
I am a Captain Long Haul.

Jean-Lill
21st Nov 2008, 11:23
Is there going to be further action by the AF pilots now the 4 days strike is over, or did they achieve something?

Me Myself
21st Nov 2008, 11:39
Jean Lill................are you for real ????
You are killing me and my tummy hurts from so much laughing !!!

Achieved anything ???? read my lips : NOTHING !!!!
What is going to happen ???? NOTHING !!!
SNPL has been run over by a truck and apart from going down french style it's achieved nothing. it just made a point.
For any Anglo interested in results it's meaningless, however here it's a bit different but I grant you there's nothing to be happy about.

Jean-Lill
21st Nov 2008, 13:02
Be myself,

I 'm for real alright but I am pleased I made you laugh.

If nothing else has been achieved the strike has made interesting reading on these threads.

I am told the longer we work the younger we remain so look on the bright side. It may not happen anyway. All the BA people seem happy to consider the options to work on so perhaps there is something positive to be gained in doing so.

Someone said to me yesterday the new 58 year olds are now the 65 year olds. I am 58 but think I am 38 until I look in the mirror!!!

Best of luck anyway.
:)

Me Myself
21st Nov 2008, 15:14
I am told the longer we work the younger we remain so look on the bright side

Are you sure ?? Cuz right now I feel like I've been hit by a
bus having spent 14 hours flying back from...........na, can't tell, too telling.
I don't think waking up so wasted you don't remember what day it is or even where you are is a sign of youth; or is it ?
I am quite pleased with what I see in the mirror and I'd like to keep it that way :))
Cheers

rageye
22nd Nov 2008, 16:25
Is there going to be further action by the AF pilots now the 4 days strike is over?
Most Dutch pilots hope it's over now. The Airline's (AF-KLM) profit over the first 6 months already has evaporated due to the high costs.
The costs of this strike has not even been calculated yet.
Going on strike is good some times and the French have it as a right in their constitution.
On the other hand the usage of the right to go on strike should be well considered.
Striking against your company which is already experiencing severe financial turbulence, while the French government is issuing the unwanted rule making makes no sense to me.

Me Myself
22nd Nov 2008, 19:02
Most Dutch pilots hope it's over now. The Airline's (AF-KLM) profit over the first 6 months already has evaporated due to the high costs.
The costs of this strike has not even been calculated yet.
Going on strike is good some times and the French have it as a right in their constitution.
On the other hand the usage of the right to go on strike should be well considered.
Striking against your company which is already experiencing severe financial turbulence, while the French government is issuing the unwanted rule making makes no sense to me.

No sweat, they do ??? Well that's too bad !! Maybe you guys would care to swap your coushy 56 years old retirement along with your pension contract ??? I swear you'd never hear from us again. We'd be more than happy to let you sweat until 65.
Makes no sense to you hey ?? Well, guess what ?? Does to us !!
Toodooloo !

Longhitter
23rd Nov 2008, 08:38
Me Myself,

The big difference being that the KLM pilots pension fund is financially sound and the retirement age has been negotiated with the company and the government, enabling the retirement age of 56. The fact that you lot do not seem to be able to have a normal discussion without striking first is testament to your own and your government's autism...

Never seen a nickname that covers a personality so accurately by the way, if all your colleagues think alike no wonder 89% of the french public disapproved of the reason for the strike and consider you spoiled brats.

Surely you must be able to make your point with the government without hurting your company financially in these troubled times and p*ssing off the passengers who you need to pay for your salary.

Me Myself
23rd Nov 2008, 08:48
[quote]Surely you must be able to make your point with the government without hurting your company financially in these troubled times and p*ssing off the passengers who you need to pay for your salary.[/QUOTE

Obviously not !!! But hey thanks for those very inspirational words of wisdom but if you had followed just a tiny wincy bit of what happened you would know that :
- The government promised it would negociate with every party before any decision was made ( letter Dec 2007 )
- No talks were held but a swift amendment was voted in the middle of the night which, YES, pissed the living hell out of us and. Unless burning parliament becomes legal.............I'm afraid we'll have to keep striking, which, by the way is right there in the manual............I mean the Constitution. You know, the stuff that binds a nation together and states does and don't.
- Pension fund is financially sound. The reform that took 4 years to come up with is only waiting the governement go ahead to be implemented. we're still waiting.
As to my name, you obviously are not a movie buff. It is only the title of a very nice movie starring Rachel Griffith, who happens to be a very talentfull Aussie actress. Don't read anything more into this and spare me both your psycho-bable and your PC.

Unless you keep informed and updated, you would be truly and fully inspired to keep your mouth shut.

rageye
23rd Nov 2008, 12:41
I'm afraid we'll have to keep striking
I hope the AF pilots will come to the conclusion that it makes no sense to hurt your own company, when the government makes an unreliable move.

What is the position of the AF-management in this matter?
Are they willing to negotiate a better pension scheme that is less dependant on government rules?

petermcleland
23rd Nov 2008, 12:49
KS..."APS is linked to RPI,Naps I think is capped at 4 %."

NAPS is linked to RPI (I think September or October value) up to a limit of 5%.

Me Myself
23rd Nov 2008, 17:14
I hope the AF pilots will come to the conclusion that it makes no sense to hurt your own company, when the government makes an unreliable move.

What is the position of the AF-management in this matter?
Are they willing to negotiate a better pension scheme that is less dependant on government rules?

You know the proverb " In Rome do as the Romans do ". Here it unfortunatly means that if you don't show " some muscle " it is interpreted as " Let's go they're weak ". I don't know if some of you are french speaking and got to see this pathetic movie ( blockbuster here to my dismay ) called " Dîner de con ". The story of well off yuppies who each month invite to diner a nice bloke whom they make fun of the whole evening. You have to be french, and a wicked one at that to find this " funny ha ha !! " It's crazy, unproductive but is very much rooted in the french soul. Anyone who is upfront nice is taken for a bloody fool and I'm sure many of you have experienced " Parisian arrogance ".

This has, with time, created a general feeling of distrust that makes one party dig its heels in the sand and the other try to screw them.
Only when hooddle of money has been wasted do people sit around a table to talk.
Our very union board got sacked at the last election because of its negociating line. Pilots, specially the younger one who never had to suffer anything, wanted a much stronger stand. Instead they got 6 weeks of a fruitcake chairman who resigned because he couldn't stand the heat, from management and from the union opposition.

Anyway back to topic :
The pension reform line was : incent people to go to 60 instead of cashing in after 25 years. In order to do that, the pension was supposed to be substancially raised. This would of course not happen overnight but I think 2015 was the tharget to get the new system into full swing by which time, if you chose to leave before 60, you pension was dimished by a certain percentage. Of course if you lost your licence before hitting 60 you were entitled to full pension.
Since we have the dubious priviledge to share our fund with the cabin crew and non AF pilots, you can easily imagine the feud it led to.
The governement told us it would implement the reform but said the exact contrary to the cabin crew who were / are threatening to strike early next month. Who should we believe is anyone's guess but that certainly doesn't make us very trusty.
Yes, it is a shame to hurt one's compagny but, the very compagny could weigh a lot more if it decided to with the governement. They are just being very naughty in the matter and had they really put their full energy into this, there would have been no strike.
There is however a big BUT. The new pension reform would imply that AF contribution to the pilots fund go up about 20% and this is precicely what they want to avoid still looking like angels and why they didn't put too much energy in defusing the crisis since, according to promises made to cabin crew by the governement, the reform would not be implemented and AF would't have to cough up. Everyone but the pilots was walking out happy.
They don't really care if pilots push on to 65 but do care about having their contribution increased. So you see, 100 mill Euro in comparison to a higher contribution was worth the bet.
None of this has really been explained by the media ( what do we expect ??? ) or by the pilots who, in a way, were trying not to piss of the cabin crew by making this public.
As you see, this is a snake pit and there is a lot more than meet the eyes.
We should have a pilot's fund and not this communist farce. But this happens to be th law, 1953 to be accurate, by which we have to go. Being the most financially prolific population, the lawmaker isn't about to let us take our assetts and go our separate way.

Hope this is clear enough.

australiancalou
24th Nov 2008, 07:08
France is the latest communist country in the world just see the slogan Liberty equality fraternity...
Liberty to think the single way you have to otherwise jail, equality to pay for the social system but more for some of us, fraternity like the old humanist rule.
Everything in France is hidden behind the magnificient word: Democraty...

Concerning the French pilot's Retirement funds you have to know that you cannot work as a pilot in an other state and be paid from the fund at the same time even if you have got your full rights.

You lucky pilots from Holland cannot even imagine the way people really live in France, this so lovely country from the outside and so uggly from the inside one of the most corrupted country in the World, paradise for the red brigades, ayatollah Komeny, bokassa, south american top narcos, and so on.

Most of the French people are friendly hard workers and clever despite the brain wash they endure since their birth in the wonderfull education nationale system learning children the pensee unique (single way of thinking), one of the World's most efficient "lead to think as WE want" system even KGB was admiring during cold war.

So please do not as friends from the World's pilot community say AF pilots are responsible of the AF/KLM group losses because they fight to keep a decent retirement fund and don't want it to be merged with the abyssal hole of French National fund.

Tot ziens and think as pilots not paperscratchers...:=

Concerning Me Myself I feel better now that I know the origin of his nickname:)

Me Myself
24th Nov 2008, 07:42
Concerning the French pilot's Retirement funds you have to know that you cannot work as a pilot in an other state and be paid from the fund at the same time even if you have got your full rights.


Which is still being done as I speak. Cheating being a national sport here. I hear on a daily basis of retired pilots collecting their pension while working for some dogy outfits that pay them peanut ( Vuelling in this particular case ). The flip coin of cheating is.............wistle blowing which has happened to a couple of guys who had to make up their mind, flying or retirering. What would you know, suddenly working for peanut didn't make sense to them anymore with their income amputated of their pension.
Before you fly off the handle in outrage, do bear in mind this is a collective fund where the working generation pays for the retired. If the later chooses to work longer, why should the younger bust their toush to give them money ??? Surely, this makes sense even to the most free market oriented individual. It is not as if you had saved a lump sum and walked away with it which would be your business and nobody else's.

There is no CRPN police roaming the world to catch those who are STILL cheating the system. Mind you, from what I hear, you just have to go to XL airways to find some of those gents, right here in CDG.
They'd better have not accident or just taxi into the grass as they'd end up right in court, probably having to pay everything back. What to say of liability.
Ausraliancalou, sadly, your comments are right on the money. What amazes me though is, Amsterdam being some 500km away from Paris, not one journo bothered to inquired about other airlines. Talk of brainwash !!

australiancalou
24th Nov 2008, 08:01
Me Myself are sure for XL Airways?
I thought it was a French AOC Airlines nowadays after the sad bankrupt of the Brit's mother house.
Maybe I misunderstood what you said but I think you were refering to CITYJET in CDG...;)

rageye
24th Nov 2008, 08:40
this is a collective fund where the working generation pays for the retired.
There's the big difference between the French and Dutch. About half a century ago the Dutch pilots started a pension fund, that is independent of the working generation. Everybody builds up his own pension which is based on individual income and years with the company. The premiums are paid by pilots and company. By the time AF bought KLM for 784 million euro (http://www.veb.net/overveb/artikel.php?newsnr=408), the pension fund had a surplus of 2,4 billion euro.
The credit crisis has hurt the pension fund of course, but there is still some surplus and for the time being no dark clouds on the horizon of the BlueSkyGroup (http://www.klmvliegendfonds.nl/klm_fly/downloads/grafiek%20stand%20dekkingsgraad%20vliegend%20fonds%2013%20no v%202008.pdf)

Some KLM pilots start a career at an other airline after retirement.
This does not influence their pension. After all they paid for it themselves

australiancalou
24th Nov 2008, 09:18
Some KLM pilots start a career at an other airline after retirement.
This does not influence their pension. After all they paid for it themselves

Wise you are.
But French fellows didn't have the choice.
Communists deal with human growing, Capitalists deal with money growing.
What's the best?
At the End the natural commun sense will say: Your are too many people on this Earth and too fat as well. Something really bad should then happen.

Just see how US pension funds invested in the working market forcing the Compagnies to make redundancies and increase immediat profit to finally turn into bankrupt when the entire system stopped to work because of low consumption (Same for oil price and so on).
The only solution is from my point of view to give money to workers and authorize investments in the restricted area of assets.

Concerning retirement, I don't want my kids to be the system slaves and none of the Communism nor ultraliberlism are acceptable.
I used to fight for workers property of their working tool and investors property of the assets. In such a system workers create consumption and investors give them the means to work. That's why sometimes man say I am a ******* communist and some others a ******* capitalist.

I am just trying to stay a human being and moreover a pilot (That's for leadership:O).

Good luck to our sacrified generation and be prepare to fight for the rights of the next one. As I realized, fighting for his own rights is always worst than fighting for the rights of the next to come...

Tot ziens:ok:

Me Myself
24th Nov 2008, 11:13
Rageye

I'll tell myself your post whe I put myself to bed. Sounds like the kind of fairytale my Mama used to tell be at bedtime. I usually fell asleep with a big smile on my face.
Nowadays, I wake up screaming in the middle of the night, in sweat and my heart pounding.

Me Myself
24th Nov 2008, 11:46
[/quote]Maybe I misunderstood what you said but I think you were refering to CITYJET in CDG...http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

No, you got me right, I meant XL, but that's only from hear say, that would need to be checked. However, the Vuelling one is a fact and this gent suddenly discovered that it wasn't worth it and went to enjoy gardening. Wether he had to repay what he had collected I don't know.............but I've stopped believing in Santa.
City Jet ??? Any AF pilot could work for them...........again, provided they didn't collect their pension.
Anyhoo, this won't be an issue in 2010 when pilots are allowed to work beyhond 60. Guess what !!! Those retirering in 2009 are lobbying to see the amendment implemented this coming New Year !!! The very same who were protesting aginst 65 just a few weeks ago !! They too, want a slice of the pie.



En effet, le texte déposé devant les sénateurs garantit que les conditions d’un départ à 60 ans, qui reste l’âge légal de cessation d’activité, sont les mêmes qu’aujourd’hui. Ce n’était pas le cas de l’amendement soutenu par quelques députés et PNT 65.


Finally and I am sorry to post this in french as it comes directly from the French ALPA site, what was voted by the upper house is very different from the first draft voted par the parliament. In short, 60 remains the legal age, thus securing all the material benefits of retirement BUT it becomes possible to work beyond 60. It does sound very silly I know, but this little trick makes the whole thing legally stable. The compagny will not be able to change those material benefits.
The strike, as wastefull as may have appeared ( and it always is ) also carried another benefit which was to show that pilots can mobilize and are to be reckoned with. I am not saying this in a bravado way but you have to know that under President Sarkozy, a totally new union representation scheme is being discussed.
In short, unions who do not represent at least 10% of the total number of employees will be considered as non representative and therefore will have no legal existence anymore. Be gone AF ALPA !!
4000 Air France pilots..............75000 employees !!! We'd find ourselves in the positions our german colleagues were a short while ago, having our contracts negociated by ground staff !!! :eek:
The next government offer was " Let's have a flight crew union and make pilots and cabin crew a happy family "
4000 pilots............dunno exactly but around 20000 + cabin crew " Here we are all of sudden with cabin crew negociating our contracts !!! Talk of " ambiance " on the flight deck !!:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Finally, after having assessed what a pain in the toush we can be when made cranky, it seems we will remain a recognized " union " in the legal term of the word. Had the strike not been followed, it is a very different message the governement would have received.
In short, imagine BALPA all of a sudden losing all its legal representation rights and having Dolly at the back decide what your take home would be.

As I am writing this, I realize the kind of padded cell we live in. I must have written governement a bezillion times in this post when all it is about is collective agreement within the compagny. But as stated by Australiancalou this is how things work here. Scary !! Don' t you think ??

rageye
27th Nov 2008, 08:25
the pensee unique
En Pays Bas nos avons liberté de penser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJY8fhGTMU0) :E

Au revoir et bon vols :ok:

AF jockey
27th Nov 2008, 10:06
All this is well. But over-simplistic indeed ! The French people is way more complex than you describe. The French are not communist, as a matter of fact, the communist party scored an all time low at a mere 3% during the last presidential elections while the conservative Sarkozy collected 53%. Enough of these cliches of the French wearing beret hats, driving Citroen 2 CVs, accordeon music playing in dirty smoke-filled bars and women not shaving arm pits. France is very capitalist.

What's true though is that a tiny minority has the means to bother the entire country for backward reasons. And the entire country is outraged at that situation because they feel they work hard while a bunch of protected, unharmed civil servants are so rigid.

Now, regarding France sheltering Bocassa and other dangerous individuals, have a look at England protecting Immams preaching Holy War against that very country providing them with social security, lodging, money, etc...

Now the pilots' side of facts. Pilots at Air France retire at the age of 65 while pilots at KLM retire at the age of 56/58. The French retire with much lower pension premiums than their Dutch collegues. The SNPL had been considering the implementation of a reform that would have helped improve this situation. The government, in their admirable will to put everybody back to work, has decided to pass new laws without even talking to the SNPL, voting at night when everybody's asleep, like shameful cheating husbands.

I did not strike as I feel recession requires strong standings and involvment from employees. But I think the gov't's methods are cr.p.

rageye
27th Nov 2008, 13:05
Now the pilots' side of facts. Pilots at Air France retire at the age of 65 while pilots at KLM retire at the age of 56/58. The French retire with much lower pension premiums than their Dutch collegues.

Let me add one more fact: KLM pilots paid a high premium over lot's of years to acquire their pension.
Most people don't bother about their pension when they're young and sometimes complain about the premiums they have to pay. I'm very glad that there were some colleagues with a vision about 50 years ago, who developed this pension fund.
Nowadays it's one of the best in the world.

I did not strike as I feel recession requires strong standings and involvment from employees.
Bravo :ok: