Salt in an already deep wound!

[Skippy129]

I’m sure it’s not just me, but I was curious so I thought I would write a thread.

I like so many people completed my training in the summer 08 and ever since haven’t had a decent sniff of a job especially in the UK. I completed my training with high pass rates and first time passes in all but my IR which was a second time pass.

Prior to the course I really struggled to decide whether to go integrated or modular. I was "fortunate" enough to go integrated through using inheritance money left to me by my late mother. At the time, this was apparently the only way of securing an airline job without the struggle of going modular. As I happens I was so close to the modular option and in hindsight, really whish I had so that I would have x no of thousand left (esp. if you go to a large FTO)

Anyhow I digress slightly...

The thing i'm struggling with is, having spent 2/3's of a flat on my training, I find it hard to accept that there seems to be an increasing trend by the Veto’s to be sending out "Another Pilot Opportunity" to former students which require them to part with a further 50000 euros or so for a type rating and 300ish hours flying in the bondoo for next to nothing in the way of earnings and no guaranteed job at the end of it. I’m not sure about others but even though I funded my own training, the banks will not offer the cash for a TR because I don’t already owe them 50k. Sounds crazy to me and I can understand that they are trying to protect their investment. But how are you to get a sensible footing on the ladder?

I am deeply concerned about that there is an increasing trend towards the airlines or FTO's offering this sort of opportunity (especially if the FTO is somehow connected to the TRTO). There has to come a limit to how much we are expected to spend on our flight training. I was under the misguided belief that this should in most cases stop after the IR. So much so, I was hauled over the hot coals by the careers department of my FTO for contacting some TRTO's to find out some costs of a TR whilst finishing my IR.

I’m sorry if this sounds like a huge whinge but I think this adds salt to a very deep wound that so many of us are carrying ring now.

Your sensible and honest opinions would be appreciated.

[Flying Farmer]

Did you honestly think you would, with 250 hours, jump straight in to the right seat of a jet transport aircraft! If you did its possibly the time to remove the rose tinted specs.

Try the instructing route, in the present climate that airline job is way in the future.

A self sponsored TR without a job offer would in my and most others opinion be a complete waste of money.

[Skippy129]

Honestly....I believe I fell for a very clever marketing trick that the FTO is still advising prespective students.

I removed those specs months ago, infact during my initial flight training i started to loose faith in the assistance we would recieve in securing a job and how readily we would be accepted!

I would consider the instructor route but for two reasons. Firstly, I just dont have the available cash. Secondly I left a relatively well paid job to commence my training with a view to improving quality of life. While that may be a means to an ends, im not sure that i could cover the bills on the salary! hohum

[r1flyguy35]

Ouch, is that sour grapes too 'FF'

First you have to look at what you want to acheive, secondly 'where' you want to do it, and thirdly how you want to do it.
Modular / Intergrated, does it really matter these days other than how deep your pockets are and how foolish your reasons may be.

I am british born & bread, I took all on board and having completed my training in April this year, in the UK with 260hrs only, I was offered a job as DE FO on a wide body jet and have commenced employment with the company with the Type rating course starting next month on my 1st interview having sent out 100's of CV's.

So to all those out there still looking and fed up with all the crap that a lot of threads generate, keep going, look far a wide if you want it bad, it will happen.

Skippy, i also left a well paid job to pursue this and i was also modular, keep going mate, your dreams will be realised if you want it that much. :ok:

And if you think I am talking crap, PM me and i'll prove it!

[squirrelysquirrel]

I find myself in the same position Skippy, although having just completed a modular route. I would like to be involved in air taxi flying, but with just under 400 hours I doubt that they will touch me. Ive been thinking about instructing, but firstly I dont have any more funds to pay for a rating, and secondly, will that avenue be the next to dry up if the credit crunch mess continues ...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thanks for sharing your experience post training. Its not often shared unless its a jet job offer.

I very much doubt in the current climate that you will find a first job with an airline. After all the likes of CTC have hundreds of cadets to sell in the same marketplace and some of them even have 500hrs on a Boeing/Airbus. They can't find them work anywhere in the UK.

That leaves you with trying to get into general aviation but nearly every instructor is ahead of you in the queue for a job in Air Taxi or Air Work. With your low hours the only thing you qualify for is a PPL flying instructor if you do the FI rating which is another £5k and 3 months work and hiring starts in the spring. By which time a major recession will be impacting upon the numbers of people wanting to do a PPL course.

As the weeks turn into months and months into years you job of getting a first job will get harder and harder as your intensive training rusts up and newer graduates join you in the hunt.

You are in a very very tough position. I've seen it many times before and wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

On the plus side if you stick at it long enough it seems that career aspirations are usually met eventually.

Good luck,

WWW

[PosClimb]

Skippy, look on the bright side....

You didn't burrow the 50,000 or whatever it was you spent...

If you did, then you'd really be :mad:.

As for your predicament, I'm afraid you're about to learn what the phrase "Aviation can be a Cruel Mistress" is all about.

My advice is to try to keep current if you can find the cash. Aviation will probably start hiring again in 3 to 4 years, and you'll be ready when the next hiring wave hits.

[diarmuid8]

Skippy129,

I'm in the same boat as you but there are jobs out there you just really really have to look hard and be prepared to go anywhere.
Also, if you're in the position to self-fund FR are open again.
I know people who finnished before me, the same time as me and after me and they too have yet to get a sniff from an airline. I believe they aren't looking hard enough because I have had two interviews (another one on the way) and I'm in holding pools, not ideal but at least I got interview/sim-check experience. And I'm nothing special. So keep looking everywhere!

D8

[Otto Throttle]

Hauled over the coals by your FTO?

Tell them to go and :mad: themselves! You're a paying customer, not their employee, and can do what you bloody well please. You pay their wages, not the other way round, so don't take any cr@p from them.

High time these pompous little pratts were put firmly back in their box, and students stopped allowing themselves to be treated like idiotic children.

[Skippy129]

Unfortunately, all the time students believe they will get a bad final report if they put a hair out of line, nobody is prepared to say boo to a goose. But i whole heartedly agree with your comments!

[Prophead]

I am absolutely astounded that after paying them all that cash they are trying to fleece people out of more. :eek:

This is the kind of thing fraudsters do. Once they think they have someone gullible enough, they squeeze every last penny out of them by making them think there is only one last obsticle to pay for.

The whole integrated thing seems to me to be based upon getting a good report from the school. This means as said above that people are scared of creating a fuss if they feel they are being ripped off because they might not get that good report at the end.

[Skippy129]

You could also substitute gullible for desperate i would suggest.

[shaun ryder]

Get your instructors rating now. Your chances of airline employment are slim if not nil, I would put that dream on ice for the forseeable future. Do what so many of us before you and the rest did. Albeit on a modular basis. Get flying asap, it is your only realistic option. Build hours and get in the loop. Then focus your attention on getting single pilot IFR work once you have a wedge of hours. Dont be fooled, the competition for air taxi work is high, but at least you can be in a position to move in when the doors are open and if you are good enough.

Sit there and rot, waste thousands more on a useless type rating or go and start at the bottom. Its your choice! You can go on about your quality of life etc etc, but the bottom line is, you want to be a pilot so go out there and sort it. Many of us lived on bread and water to get where we are today, believe it! That meant working ****ty instructor jobs etc etc, unfortunately thats life old chap. No such thing as a free lunch.

Best of luck :ok:

[Skippy129]

I never asked for one.

Also the point was more about the companies taking advantage out of newly qualified pilots by demanding more spending. My point is that this attitude needs to be stopped as soon as possible. Furthermore, these attitudes are being driven by the FTO's once they have their studends (parents or the banks) hard earned cash. Certainly this is my experience and i wrote my findings here because i know others on my course and those the months around me feel that the FTO's are like big brother and are still watching our every little message, be it on here or other forums such as Facebook. People just dont want to announce what is really happening and i really feel that people about to or in the process of parting with a considerable amount of money should stop and really think about what they are doing. NO other career demands such spending in order to secure the vague posibility of recruitment.

[shaun ryder]

Your choice Skippy. I suggest forgetting about your FTO and put it down to bad judgement. Focus on number one now. Reality is you have just spent the earth getting the bare minimum qualification. It is up to you now to go and get. I am sure a few of your cohorts will read this. However it is unlikely to stop them going where you have just been and blowing all their cash.

You were not forced into this by anyone.

[Skippy129]

I may as well have just written an airprox cos what im trying to say is going over your head. Im not intending fo this to get personal in any way or a bitching match about FTO's. My arm was not forced into this, correct.

I just wanted people to comment on how they had found things and if they were incurring the same ridiculous offers of future bankruptcy. It is just supposed to stimulate honest findings and considerations, thats all.

Enough said on that.

[student88]

Skippy - I think I know what you're getting at. It seems to me that PPRUNE isn't a place where some students can express their real feelings abot a training establishment. Just the other day I was reading a guys views who was then shot down by another member for "sour grapes". You can't say anything in this forum without having someone go nuts at you because "you're the one that's wrong not the FTO". It's so sad, people thinking they owe something to their FTOs.

I heard a joke the other day about porn being played on petrol station forecourt TV's so when you're filling up your car you can watch someone else being :mad:'d at the same time. Maybe they should show videos of Intergrated fATPL students at major schools like "Overpriced Aviation Academy", "C.T.Seee I told you so".

Anyway, I'm off to my physics class.

S88:ok:

[BWFiftyworld]

Skippy, I am the parent of a recently qualified fATPL from a leading FTO. He had to take out "The Loan" and we had to cash in our insurance policies - it was a family decision - we are NOT RICH. When he applied, we were in end 2006/early 2007 - and the talk here was all "do it NOW!" The downturn is no fault of the pilots - it's a global recession. I am confident it will come back in time. Son is going to do an FI course, and live at home unitl he gets that elusive first job. It will not be easy, but I do agree with some of the posts - if you leave the aviation loop, I suspect it will be very difficult to rejoin. Employers look for commitment and determination to succeed. If you can't afford a FI course, then do something else, but keep flying, even if only on the weekend, or do some gliding..The very best of luck to you and all the other young (and not so young) folk in a similar position...:ok:

[Bealzebub]

The flying schools are commercial companies. They survive by making a profit. Their business is selling flying courses to those who for whatever reason want to buy those courses. Like all companies, they advertise and promote their product as being better than the competition, and a "must have" item. It is up to the buyer to decide if that product is ultimately right for them. It is also up to the buyer to do their own research prior to making their purchase.

You cannot blame the sellers for showing pretty pictures of happy young pilots resplendant in their neatly starched uniforms and sunshades standing alongside a freshly polished jet airliner, parked under a sunny cloudless sky.
Car manufacturers rarely sell their product with pictures of it stuck on the M25 at rush hour in the rain. Far better, pretty vistas of scenic open roads with "promises" of freedom and adventure. It is all about selling and tapping in to the customers desire.

These schools sell training for various pilots licences and ratings, and in most cases that is what they provide. The problem seems to be in the perception that some of their customers have once they have purchased and obtained these products. Certainly the sellers were happy to encourage that perception, but it is the buyer who should beware.

There is no doubt that for a career in aviation you must, at the most basic level, be in posession of the relevant licences. However that is not the end of it. The reality is that you then need a realistic and practical game plan. For the vast majority of people that will involve a great deal of additional cost obtaining further ratings, training, experience and recurrent training. Even then the opportunities that are likely to be available may well be very thin on the ground or almost non-existent. Historically this was often the case. People obtained the licences and worked their way up through a variety of aerial work such as instructing, air taxi flying, sightseeing flights, parachute dropping, banner towing, etc. After a few years of this the additional hours and experience often opened up doors to the airlines albeit at the commuter/turboprop level. A few years of this and that experience would translate into the sort of experience the Jet operators and major carriers were demanding. It was at this point that career climbers ( often called self improvers) joined with the stream of air force leavers, to compete for those first level vacancies. The system wasn't easy, and it certainly had a high attrition rate.

Over the last 10-15 years, coupled with the rapid expansion in air travel, and particularly the rapid expansion of low cost air travel, there has been a concerted effort to remove unnecessary expense. One of the biggest costs for any company is obviously labour, and particularly expensive skilled labour. It didn't take them long to realize that a lot of that cost was sitting in the pointy end of the aircraft they were leasing. In the preceding 10 years the manufacturers had responded to the airlines demands by designing the flight engineer out of the flightdeck, thereby reducing the operating costs. If you could then eliminate one of the pilots things would get cheaper and cheaper. Unfortunetaly that was really a no-go for the manufacturers and regulators, so other ideas had to be looked at. There had been a very limited supply of intensively trained commercial pilots by and for specific airlines through either their own in house training establishments (BEA/BOAC later BA at Hamble), and some limited contracted work through a very few established flight training schools (such as Oxford and Perth,) although usually for Middle Eastern carriers. Nevertheless this training system gave the airlines an opportunity. As long as the insurers and the regulator didn't object they could take a basic 250 hour candidate with the requisite licences, train them on type and shovel them in the right hand seat at very low cost. This displaced many of the "better" experienced candidates unless they were in turn prepared to accept the reduced terms and conditions on offer. This was then further expanded by getting those low hour pilots to sign financial guarantees (bonds), then to pay for the type ratings themselves. In some cases this was further expanded to make the new pilots pay for their interiews, their uniform, even their "line training". Training establishments sprang up to take advantage of this new and expanding market by arranging all the financing, training and screening, and then offering a product to their contracting airline customers. All of this worked well untill the boom stopped!

Inevitably it wasn't going to last. Either an accident would have provoked the insurers to make this practice impractical, or the economy would take a downturn that placed a lot of experienced pilots out of work. Perhaps (if fortunetaly can ever be the right word) it was the latter. You now have a serious number of very experienced pilots who are prepared to accept the reduced and weakened terms on offer. Why would most airlines now even bother to look at anybody with 250 hours, when for the same money you can get all the experience and "ready to go" pilots that you could ever want, all assuming they do actually want anybody at all!

So that is part of the reason why you cannot get a sniff of a shiny jet job, or probably anything less at this time. It isn't very likely to change for the better anytime soon either.

I am very sympathetic for anybody who is currently saddled with a large debt and few realistic prospects. For what it is worth, that has often been the case in the past as well. Aviation has always been a very frustrating and difficult and demanding occupation to succeed in. Those with perserverance and a good back up plan stand every chance of success given an added good measure of luck. Unfortunetaly the "must have it now" generation, coupled with years of easy credit and irresponsible borrowing and lending, are about to cause a lot of people to fall back to Earth with a big bump! Given the cyclic nature of these things, the economy will eventually turn and things will get better, be it next year or in 10 years, who knows? The fittest and most adaptable will survive so will a few of the luckiest.

In the meantime, businesses (like individuals) need to survive as well, and many won't. For training schools this will be by adapting their product, creating new products of desire or percieved need, and continuing to show pictures of happy pilots in neatly starched uniforms and expensive sunshades standing next to polished jets under sunny skies.

[Prophead]

I think it is good that you have come on here to post your experiences. Usually the modular guys say go modular and the integrated guys all say integrated is the way to go. Alot of people cannot admit they have made a mistake or blew a load more cash than they needed to so good on you for posting.:ok:

I for one don't think integrated is a good idea right now but when the airlines are recruiting and as long as your not borrowing the full amount then it can be a good way in. In your case you had the cash and things were not the way they are now so i can understand why the integrated route looked like a good choice. Its you guys who are coming out of training into this mess that i really feel for. Anyone who starts integrated now has themselves to blame.

I think someone like yourself can save alot of wannabes alot of cash and balance out the crap the glossy marketing material puts out.

Hope it works out for you in the end.

[Superpilot]

Mark my words now. Even when the financial crisis is over you won't be able to get a Jet or Turboprop job without paying for a type rating (plus maybe some line training). This is already a reality in most cases but it will be 'the way' when the job market opens again. There has already been an explosion in the number of firms offering TRs and these firms are often partnered with the airlines or run by friends of people in high places (flight crew recruitment). In some ways there are advantages for airlines to use such companies.

For some years now many other industries have been using agencies to help recruit graduates for new positions. Direct hire for IT related jobs is almost unheard of. We are going to see this ever increasing trend within the airline wannabe world too and it'll be a success because the airlines will want to totally outsource all their training needs (saving cost and reducing burden upon themselves).

Might as well ditch any plan you might have of doing an integrated course now. Instead, look to do an intensive modular course (starting in about a year) at half the price and then leave yourself £20-30k for a TR. Or be a complete fool and deliberately spend £60-80k (depending on interest) on an integrated knowing that you'll need to spend £20-30k on a TR. Yes, there are people who go into this expecting to do just that! :ugh:

Yes it's a sad and expensive reality but it's due to our capitalist nature which without we wouldn't have these job opportunities anyway! I've been converted for sure. Expecting to pay for a TR within the next 12 months. :ooh:

[Prophead]

As has been said on another thread, there is not much difference between paying for your own type and being bonded on a low salary because the airline has paid it.

I think alot of people would rather pay, at least that way there not tied to one employer for years and could continue in a high paid job right up until the switch to the airlines. Alot of newly qualified fATPL's are moving from other well paid careers and have mortgage family etc. It just isnt possible for these people to work for a low salary.

There would however need to be some kind of a job offer in place before starting a TR course.

[Skippy129]

Just to clarify, i wasn't suggesting completely free type ratings! I fully agree with the bonding principle, but please airlines consider the situations of these people, they have just spent a hugh amount of capital and in some cases it may be impossible to find further funding. The banks do not want to know. I have the emails from HSBC to prove it!

I too can clearly see that this is not one of their concerns because if i cant find the cash, the next newly qualified pilot will from somewhere. Your right, this is the way the industry will go to "minimise their risk" or whatever excuse they which to flag it under. The thing is whilst i understand they too are a business and trying to maximise profit, how much more risk is there when we have come this far.

Im sure there were very similar threads after 9/11 about "What do you mean there is no more sponsorship schemes"

Progress I guess!

[Bealzebub]

Did you miss the bit where I said:

You now have a serious number of very experienced pilots who are prepared to accept the reduced and weakened terms on offer. Why would most airlines now even bother to look at anybody with 250 hours, when for the same money you can get all the experience and "ready to go" pilots that you could ever want, all assuming they do actually want anybody at all!

The risk is enormous if you have a debt that you are relying on a potential jet job to service. As you might have noticed the banks have become very reluctant to even lend to each other, much less those with a high risk ambition with currently poor prospects.

[mikehammer]

Also the point was more about the companies taking advantage out of newly qualified pilots by demanding more spending. My point is that this attitude needs to be stopped as soon as possible. Furthermore, these attitudes are being driven by the FTO's once they have their studends (parents or the banks) hard earned cash


I agree but how?


Employers look for commitment and determination to succeed


Could be true, but my employer looked for more than 500 hours, some interesting flying (a bit of survey work, lots of photo work) and availability next Monday for the type rating. However if you leave the aviation loop, I suspect it will be very difficult to rejoin
is true. Very true.

[corsair]

Skippy I don't mean to be patronising or putting you down. But I think you are a good example of the new breed of newly trained pilot who was, not so much conned as misled by recent trends in recruitment and training. You say you have learned but in effect you are still a little naive.

I like so many people completed my training in the summer 08 and ever since haven’t had a decent sniff of a job especially in the UK. I completed my training with high pass rates and first time passes in all but my IR which was a second time pass.

From previous experience, come back and make that statement when it's 2010 or 2013. It really could be that long before you find yourself in the right seat of an airliner. In the past this kind of timescale was commonplace and indeed still is. By then you will be justified in complaining.

If you hadn't mentioned you were on an integrated course. I would have guessed it because of the fact you mention your high pass rates and first time passes. That seems to be common among integrated graduates and obviously seems to have been indoctrinated into them by the FTO. That is a good thing but is only relevant in the good old days when an airline would contact a school and ask them to forward details of the cream of the crop. At this point it's mostly irrelevant, although five attempts at an IR might look bad.


but please airlines consider the situations of these people, they have just spent a hugh amount of capital and in some cases it may be impossible to find further funding. The banks do not want to know. I have the emails from HSBC to prove it!

Why should they care about your financial commitment? Please understand, airlines are businesses. They need to make money and they owe you nothing. While individuals in the airlines can sympathise, even empathise because they were in the same position once. But as a company, they have no interest in furthering your dream at their expense. If you can't come up with the cash. They will cry 'Next' and hire the next in line instead. It's the simple brutal truth.

Sorry, if I come across as harsh. I don't want to be. It's just the way it is. But listen, don't get too worked up about it. Your day will come. Keep current, try and get some kind of flying and wait out the storm. Almost all of my contemporaries eventually got more or less what they wanted. Sometimes it took years. Five years was common, six years. One even quit flying for ten years, decided to get his licence back. Was offered a GA job before he renewed it and then ended in an airline job a year later. All told it took him twenty years:eek:.

You have plenty of time.

[avrodamo]

I know it does not help now, but personally this has all the makings of a significant pilot shortage in the distant future. As things stand now you have pretty much no chance of securing any flying position with an airline or air taxi company. The credit crunch situaion will however impact heavily on pilot training. I would say that almost every person i trained with, and myself included borrowed the cash needed for training on loans, re-mortgages and credit cards. That is quite simply not going to be available, and therefore will have an impact on newly trained pilots coming through the system. There has already been threads on Prune where students are finding it impossible to secure funds.
When all this does finally start coming good, and it will, there will be a dip in the number of pilots available, and im sure you will secure the position you want. In the meantime you have to keep current. If possible do the FI course. Getting the job seems to be harder than getting the licence!
The very best of luck:ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

I was reading a copy of a well known GA magazine and noticed a section with a title along the lines of 'Do yo want to become an Airline Pilot.' This was a recent edition (Nov 2008) and I couldn't believe some of the garbage being banded about, especially when you consider the current economic climate. One audacious boast came from the head of spin from Oxford, suggesting that now was the time to throw 70K their way. His advice was train in the downturn and you will be best set for the upturn. He still thought that the majority of his cadets would be employed. Unfortunately his mystic meg crystal ball was unable to predict when or by whom.

This sort of sh1t has always got my back up, yet at the same time so has the naivity of some of the people who sign up to these courses. I would consider paying to go along to one of their 'open days' to see what they are saying in regards to today's climate. I understand they are businesses, how some of their speal is damn right irresponsible.

[eikido]

1. Excellent thread and a standing ovation to mr Bealzebub. Wonderful post. Simply wonderful. :D:D:D

2. I haven't started training yet but i never expected to get a first job on a jet. A job that i really want is as a Flight Instructor. However i feel even these jobs are getting difficult to get these days. Anyone can comment on that? Don't you people think most newly graduates will realize that FI is the way to go and we will soon also have more instructors than jobs?

Eikido

[Rollerboy]

This is the first useful thread with some excellent advice I have seen in a long time on this forum. The advice from previous posters should be used by both yourself and others involved in this decision making process.

I personally believe the future for airlines and FTO's is very uncertain at this precise moment in time. Even BALPA in their latest update have highlighted this fact, they also incidently forsee possibly the end of the SSTR in long term sight.

You completed training this year with what sounds like good results but that doesn't mean you will walk into a job. I realise that paying for a further FI rating may break the bank but the sound advice on this sight seems to advocate an instructors rating over all else. I would echo this advice as the FI rating allows you to at least continue flying and gaining hours waiting for the upturn. However I am a little worried that the credit crunch is affecting flight instructing that remains to be seen. Have any current instructors got any figures?

I faced the same problems as you some years ago and aviation delt me many upsetting blows CTC for one. I picked myself up and completed an FI course but didn't get the chance to instruct as I luckily, and I say luckily was offered an airline job. This job would not have been offered had I not completed the FI course. I am now flying regularly and training for my airline as a FO Ground Training Instructor another job that may not have been offered without the FI qualification.

What I am trying to say is bite the bullet and go for the FI rating gain some hours PM me if you want I may be able to help.

Roller

[Rhodes13]

To the original thread starter the overwhelming sense I got from your posting was a complete lack of planning. Whilst its crap that you are in the position you are now in, one has to wonder where the backup plans were?

Did you ever look into the fact that once you finished training you would have to stump up more money for additional training? Afterall I assume you knew you would be dumped onto the market with the barest of qualifications? Where were the what ifs? You now say you dont have the money to complete further training but surely if you had done some prior planning you would have budgeted for the worst case scenario and planned accordingly/ chosen a different course of action?

I also like the quote by someone else saying that people have families to feed and/ or have left high paying jobs to persue "their dream". Does this make them more entitled to gain entry to a jet job? I read the posts of the wannabes and I am amazed at the naivety diplayed by otherwise normal and sane people.

Unfortunately the world is full of starry eyed wannabe's that have followed what the perceive to be an easy way to a glamourous/ well paying job and aren't prepared to face the reality that dreams don't always come true. The simple fact is that not everyone that gets a pilots license will end up getting a job. Only the very few go onto make it especially in these tough times!

The doesnt exempt the FTO's from morally questionable tactics although as usual its buyer beware and always go into these things with your eyes wide wide open.

[Skippy129]

Stating that i didn't plan is a bit rich as you are not fully aware of my personal situation, perhaps you have gone of a bit half cocked?

Unfortunately my backup plans weren't fully stuck to by my previous employer. having had 4 1/2 years service in my former professional career, they refused to re-employ me.

In some respects though you are correct, i read into the training and the posibilities and made my choices perhaps somewhat blinded by the lights but in the good faith that Quote "95% of our students successfully secure jobs within six months of graduation"....I would now say that the glaring inadmission in that statement is the words flying job!!!!

[no sponsor]

There was a post not so long ago about the 'Good Times' and recruitment. As I said in that thread, the good times were, and are, a bit of a myth. It has always been very difficult to secure an airline position, unless you know someone or strike lucky (right place at the right minute). It took me 18 months - in the 'Good Times'. I had one interview in all that time. One opportunity to make it at my interview and sim ride. Hundreds of unanswered emails, phone messages, web applications and CVs.

CTC and the like made it appear very easy. Give them 70K, and 18 months down the line you would be sitting in a Airbus A319 at EasyJet - it was that easy, simply pass the selection tests, fill out the loan application - bingo a new career where you look cool in sunglasses! Those days were always going to come to an end. The reality was that when airlines stopped recruiting - economy or no outstanding aircraft orders - it would all come to a grinding halt.

My airline has recently changed our T&Cs so we can all work a bit harder and save on recruiting any more people for next year - we only work 650hrs a year (flying that is) so they can squeeze a bit more out of the system. I guess others will do the same.

One word of warning about paying for line training. I assume you maybe referring to the Air Asia scheme?

A bod came to us after having almost 800hrs on a 737 for a North African operator. He failed his line training. It appeared that this operator simply regarded their F/Os as bag carriers and flap/gear operators. Not all line training is equal, and not all parts of the world treat their F/Os as one might expect. Asia is very different, and you need good line trainers to make you into a good F/O - a TR doesn't do it. So you may get your 1000hrs, but you really need to be flying the aircraft as PF to get the right sort of experience.

[BWFiftyworld]

Rhodes - I think your views are somewhat of an injustice not only to Skippy but to many of your fellow pilots. There may well be "starry eyed" youngsters who feel let down, but my experience of talking to a number of pilots and reading these pages is that most who pursue the career have done their research, and accept the vagaries of the business - certainly we did. Anybody who can pass 14 ATPL exams in 6 months, and get to to their fATPL with the required ME/IR deserves my respect, irrespective of how they got there. I think that BALPA could perhaps do more to assist in the SSTR debate. In addition, it is a great shame that RYR have been allowed to get away with their amoral practices for so long..but if you read M O'L's biography, you will understand why they have managed to do so..! I wish you all well - the public only seem to understand what is involved in your training when there is an "incident". Skippy - stick with it - we are still being told that the annual global requirement for new pilots is into 5 figures...it will come back.:)

[Prophead]

Rhodes,

You wrote,

'I also like the quote by someone else saying that people have families to feed and/ or have left high paying jobs to persue "their dream". Does this make them more entitled to gain entry to a jet job?'

I suggest you reread my post as this is not what i was saying at all. I was merely saying that some people would rather pay up front for a TR than be bonded on a low salary. I think we all agree though that SSTR's should come to an end. Whether they will is another matter.

[Superpilot]

...the good times were, and are, a bit of a myth.

Entirely agree with 'No Sponsor'. There has never been an easy time for newbies in terms of getting a Jet/TP job at relatively low cost. A handful of lucky sods, who having done a modular, got their TRs paid for (including you No Sponsor!) but this was always a rarity and practically unheard of in the last 2 years.

Lets take a look at the cadets of the BA sponsorship for example, they always started on a low salary. Basic of £28k in May 2001 when I applied. I believe there was a difference between salary scales for cadets and DEPs for 5 years with the net difference being close to £60k (the alledged amount it cost BA to train them!). The logical would ask here, what "sponsorship"? CTC, again the cadets were flying for 6 months at £1,000 p/m (not even from the airline) and got paid a reduced salary for a number of years.

For the majority, their type rating always gets funded through their own pockets. It's how and when this money leaves your pocket that often disguises the facts. It's always been like this, only difference now is we live in an era where 'up front' payments are required and this is linked to my point above - TR training is being outsourced more and more and these companies need a decent cash flow to keep them running and remain a healthy choice for their partner airlines.

[no sponsor]

I forgot to add one thing. The great thing about the Air Asia scheme would be the girls :}

There always is a silver lining...

[Desk-pilot]

Firstly I'd like to say you have my genuine sympathy for this situation - the good thing (unlike in my case) is that you funded the integrated course with savings not loans.

Secondly, I'd like to correct a view that BA is the only 'free' type rating provider - Flybe also pay your type rating and bond you and they seem to like mature low hours guys and often hire many of them - I'm sure there are others too -Monarch etc when they are recruiting.

Thirdly when I found myself in a similar situation to you I have to admit I felt rather bitter. The simple fact is that the schools train too many pilots and this contrasts with many degree courses where most reasonably industrious and capable graduates can expect to get a job because the numbers of people doing courses bears some relation to the number of jobs on offer.

Now, my reaction to the situation of finding myself with no flying job and a need to pay my mortgage was I fell back on my previous career - it's the one big benefit mature candidates have. I have to say that my despondency lifted greatly when I started working as an IT contractor for more money than I had ever earned in my life! I was literally within a few months of losing the house and everything and with a new born baby it was a very difficult time. They say money doesn't buy you happiness but it sure bought me some at that time - I started paying back the loans, remortgaged, treated the wife to a new (secondhand) car, went on holiday for the first time in about 4 years and sat on a beach reading a James Bond novel rather than ATPL theory! Life was actually pretty good.

After a little while I started hiring commercial simulators to keep current though I even went through a period where I stopped applying for flying jobs because I just couldn't face it anymore and chose to spend more time with the family and my new child. In the meantime I found a new appreciation for the regular hours of IT, pleasant lunches with colleagues or friends and ability to nip to HMV at lunchtime and buy a DVD without having to phone the bank first!!

Eventually some 18 months down the line I did obtain an airline job. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I found that constantly focussing on how much I desperately wanted to fly just made me feel depressed so I sort of sidestepped it and looked for pleasure elsewhere - family, holidays - whatever. I took the view that there are many ways of being happy in this life and flying is just one of them so I focussed on some of the others. After the intense effort of the course I found that very therapeutic.

It's not really the conventional wisdom, but it worked for me. I had already decided by the way that I couldn't put the family through any further misery for my dream so paid type ratings were out as was taking any really underpaid flying job for £6k a year or whatever. I drew a line in the sand after the MCC and decided personally that was the end of the line for me and my family. As a well paid IT contractor paying for occasional sim sessions for currency and punting around in a PA28 for fun wasn't a big expense.

I wish all of you well and hope this rather different approach helps you feel a bit better about things - now get out there and find some bloody pleasure elsewhere and if you are absolutely skint go and do something imaginitive with your nubile girlfriend for a while - at least that's free!

Desk-pilot

[expedite08]

Desk-pilot,

I've been a member of Prune for a few years now, and I can honestly say that is one of the best posts I have seen! Makes a lot of sense and should be adopted by many. Flying will come when the time is right and dont sacrifice everything you have for it! ( you will have a very miserable life!) At the end of the day its a job!:D

[119.35]

Here, here! Brilliant post! Thanks for taking the time to write and share it with us.

[nuclear weapon]

Have you tried relocating. After trying for a couple of months without any luck i went back to my country and there were jobs on offer and so there i am didn't have to pay for type rating and good money as well. some of those i finished with went to Greece, India, Baltic you name it.
If you are young and you have no family tying you down then i suggest its an option worth considering.

[Desk-pilot]

Just to say I'm glad my little post helped and try not to stress about it all - the world isn't going to stop flying around in aeroplanes it's just the rate of growth has slowed for the next 12-18 months. For some reason I do wonder if this could all blow over quite quickly - faster than the analysts think. As an example the recent cut in mortgage rates for anyone on a tracker deal with a sizeable mortgage (which is most people I know!) has just given many of us a far bigger pay rise than our employer this year - I reckon a 2% cut in interest rates is worth £400 a month net to me. People have got used to changing their mobile phone every 12 months, upgrading to the latest IPod and wanting the latest playstation. They have also got used to flying around Europe on aeroplanes at the drop of a hat cheaply. That consumer behaviour won't change in most people because they don't want to give up their 'lifestyle'.

Clear skies to all of you,

Desk-pilot

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Nice thread... Easy to have a go at people who come here to say their master plan hasn't work out yetwe should all learn something out of it.

A plan in aviation is just that... Reality to come, is usually something else (better or worse).
So talking about our difficulties or disappointments is a first step to find a solution. To skippy, I say well done for coming out ;) as you are far from being the only one. No doubt some readers will share what you are going through... Like it was said in a previous post though, it is just how it has always been for most people, myself included.

Not that I ever thought I ll get a RHS on big jet with my 200 hours but the truth was that I knew little about commercial aviation and its reality. So like many I dreamt, hoped and worked my way around a system where a passion for flying may seem like the least important requirement when one wants to get a job.
But with time, luck, work, joys and failures, I managed to log more hours, then onto bigger aeroplanes for better wages etc... Years down the line, all is ok and I even got to fly pretty much all I had wanted to (Bush, Boeings, Bizjets, gliders...) and have little regrets. In fact even the times similar to which you are going through don't seem so bad anymore. Mainly because I stuck with it, remained positive and when I had to do some other jobs (non flying ones but always aviation related), I always got a lot out of it. Be some very good friends, great times (if you see what I mean here :O), a better knowledge of various sides of this harsh industry and a lot more, professional contacts etc...

There are some things I would have done differently but not many (like in an effort to make things right, don't dump a job offer for somebody who is trying to leave you :D... A very commandable thing but ultimately a disaster).

So my advice to you is... Make up your own mind about things. Don't take your pals (or mine) advice as the magic solution to all your problems. What works for one might not work for the other one and vice versa.
Keep the faith, the hours coming (even if it is an hour once in the blue moon), networking and be what I call... A patient impatient. Somebody who knows that sitting on his bum will bring no success but also somebody who knows when to wait.
As an example, I would say go and knock on doors (small local outfits, companies in a different part of the world, whatever idea you get ...), make yourself known but don't Piss Anybody Off. Be smart, the kind of guy we like to hang around with who allies a good spirit with professionalism.

So to you and the others, the very best of luck. Hang on there and you will get there too.

[BWFiftyworld]

Nice to see some constructive (if realistic) posts here. It's horses for courses. Well done deskpilot - you've done the right thing for you and your family - all the very best.:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thoughts about this crisis blowing over quickly are akin to the chillingly naive popularly spoken sentiment about WW2 that "it'll all be over by Christmas".


From 1990 to 1995 in the last serious recession there were virtually no jobs for wannabes. If you know and understand this historical fact you begin to understand why people like me have been so strenuous in efforts to warn people about training under debt. The latest spin being spun is that this recession will be entered quickly but over quickly. This won't happen. It will be deep and it will be long and just like last time I expect to see 10,000hr jet captains driving post office vans. It might even be me.


SSTR's are not going to go away. Flying training has become much cheaper in real terms than it was a decade ago and thus the bar has been moved up. You don't believe that but it is true. Over time extra hours and hoops and tests have always been added to the training process. Employers have always expected candidates to pay more and shoulder more risk year on year. The point where decent money is earned is always slightly further away than it used to be.

This is a profession in relative decline.

That's a fact.


WWW

[sawaya]

WWW same old story i believe we are all tired......

[eikido]

And i can never have enough of it.

Eikido

[Flying Farmer]

In reply to the 4th post in this thread.

No its not "sour grapes" at all just a realistic view of this industry. Remember most of us who currently are in either the right or left know how difficult that elusive first job is to get. I was searching for a position soon after Sept 11 so have the t shirt thanks!

Staying current is the first priority, how you do that is up to the individual, instructing is the usual way. That leads on to opportunities in the air taxi world when you have built hours and experience. Its not the only way to go about it but its the usual route to the right hand seat.

After 30 months on a turbo prop I start a jet rating next month, it took just over 5 years to get that "jet job". That in the majority of cases is the time it take to a shiny jet, sometimes less, sometimes more.

[one post only!]

Give WWW a break. Fine he is a bit doom and gloom but he is only trying to help. Maybe a slightly pessimistic view but what’s wrong with that??? If you went to a doctor and he said, “Right, sorry, it’s a really bad case of cancer but here is what we need to do.” Would you listen and take the info on board or reply and say,” nah, its fine, I have the flu give me an aspirin and I will be ok in the morning?”

I sometimes think on here people don't want to hear anything that conflicts with their rosy mental model of things!! However some people with a doom and gloom mental model may not want to hear the positives floating about.
Although I don't think there are many. Lots more job cuts announced this morning!!

I think a lot of credit is due to Skippy here. He has put a post on reflecting what is going on for a lot of people and it is important for potential trainees to read. Don't expect to walk straight into the RHS of a jet. If you auto-filter out any warnings from WWW and others all you get is I GOT A JET JOB IN 2 WEEKS type stuff. This of course then confirms what the FTO marketing dept is telling you. It all sounds quite positive. Train in the downturn, it will be over as you graduate and the A380's start arriving at all airlines. Why would you doubt what you are being told (should be sold) if you keep hearing positives from everyone..........

If a few more people posted saying they were finding it a struggle to find the promised jet job then it might give a few hopefuls some extra info and allow them to plan better. I bet there are many more out there. It’s just that we normally only hear the success stories (but let’s be honest they are nicer to read!!).

Whatever happens over the next couple of years it’s going to be a roller coaster ride. No-one can say for certain what is going to happen. Too many variables to consider. You have to make your own call and buy your ticket when you think it’s the right time.

[Desk-pilot]

WWW, Your point is well made and I'm old enough to remember the last serious recession and the one before that when my final board interview for BA Cadet was cancelled due to the first Gulf War and by the time the scheme reopened years later I was too old for the scheme.

I am most definately not encouraging anyone to start training now, however I do feel that the media has perhaps blown the financial crisis out of proportion. For a bunch of overpaid city bankers they are being hit hard (and about time too) but for the normal working man with no savings and only debts in fact so far it's pretty much all good news - a huge cut in interest rates has meant hundreds less a month being paid on the mortgage and as long as you aren't made redundant the 'real economy' is (so far) relatively untouched. I can't honestly see people's behaviour changing that dramatically - witness the bustling shops every weekend. I don't know about your airline but mine (Flybe) are certainly doing quite nicely at present and my wife's (BA) after initially panicking when the fuel price shot up are now indicating things aren't as bad as they feared and are already calling people again out of the hold pool.

I certainly foresee the next 12-18 months being tough for recruitment but I just don't see the 5 year recession you do.

Anyway, I suspect if either of us were that good at predicting the future we'd be driving a DB9 and working for a hedge fund! Incidentally I completely agree with your point about this being a profession in decline.

With kind regards,

Desk-pilot

[stefair]

Skippy,
My respect for posting here and publicly admitting a mistake you might have made. Well, let me rephrase it, uhem, let's face it, going integrated was a mistake no doubt. However, I do believe despite the economic situation SE jobs are out there, only thing is they don't come easy. I know my gliding club had a tug plane and there always was the prospect of flying that plane but for doing so one had to have the silver gliding certificate if I am not mistaken. My gliding club was and is desperately looking for new young members and consequently for instructors, too. Obviously, that would be a no-salary job but one gets to fly on a regular and it could be put on a CV.
Alternatively, try going abroad as one previous poster already mentioned. I know most English native speakers are not too good at speaking other languages for obvious reasons but there are places in Europe where airlines are actively recruiting low-timers right now, e.g. Germany. And not only that, their screenings can be done to a great extend in English. However, to be a candidate for being offered a position you will have to be able to communicate at least somewhat in German.
I myself completed my training this year and luckily was able to get a job flying SE VFR in the UK (no instructing). It is not what I want to do for the remainder of my life but it pays the bills (well, kind of) and I get to fly regularly. Don't give up, instead try even harder, and look particularly for the jobs at the bottom of the ladder. All the best to you. Roll safe.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The media, is anything, have totally ignored and underplayed this financial crisis. They still are. The public debt now being unleashed will place an entire future generation in shackles of higher taxes and lower growth. Our children will spend the better part of their working life paying off the debts we have accumulated in just 10 short hedonistic years. Many books will be written.


Deskpilot, do you accept that a recession now is afoot which will be at least equal to the 1990-91 recession?

If so do you accept that last time Wannabe jobs dried up for around five years?

If you accept those two points then, unless this time is different, there is likely to be a similar period of famine for Wannabes.


The actual recession may only last 12 months. But the >3million unemployed and subsequent lack of consumer confidence is what results in airline bankruptcy and oversupply of pilots. It takes a couple of years of normal growth just to soak up this oversupply of unemployed pilots.


WWW

ps Who says I don't have a DB9?

[timzsta]

Skippy - stop whingeing and do something about it! If don't want to or can't do anything about it get out of aviation. You need to wake and an smell the roses. Go look in the back of the latest FTN news. You will see that in 2006 the CAA issued over 1000 shiny new CPL(A)'s. How many of those people do you think have jobs now? And how many more have the school's churned out since.

At this moment in time you have low hours and you know precisely jack s**t about flying. A couple of winter seasons instructing and you might learn about de-icing an aircraft, flown a few instrument approaches for real, flown at night in marginal conditions in single engine pistons. Ever done an update to a set of Jepps? Whats the recommended minima for take off in a single engine piston as laid down in the UK AIP? Ever written the staff training section of a club flying order book? Get my drift?

I don't know a great deal more than you but I have spent the last 2 1/2 years working as a part time FI. With a little bit of experience the opportunity is now at hand for me to do some multi IFR flying. One thing leads to another in this game, but you have got to start somewhere and an FI in a 152 is no bad place.

It really does wind me up when I see people sitting here on PPRUNE moaning they spent all this money and there is no job for them! What did you expect was going to happen ? Someone was just gona walk up to you as you left the CAA building at Gatwick with your CPL in hand and say "here you are poor little thing come and fly my airbus".

Most of the people I have got to know over the past few years that are flying jets had to do between 1000-2000 hours in general aviation before they got their chance. Those that get jobs with 250 hours, even by going down the type rating route are still in the small minority.

This is the way it is in aviation, you start on the bottom of the ladder and you work your way up. Get used to it, get used to it fast, start flying and learning.

Finally, good luck.

[PT6Driver]

A long time since i have posted on this forum and was in the first job hunting market but nothing seems to have changed.
Got my fatpl in 1999 with almost 300hrs! (modular and upgrade). With plan A failing (contact and promises from small regional airline meant nothing when they stopped all recruitment) spent most of 99 recieving reject letters - very demoralising.
Again most of my friends felt the same about the training organisations as you do now because all their promises of job hunting help, contacts, interviews etc faded to nothing on graduation.
MCC was just coming in so paid for that to help market myself. result nothing. Most Chief Pilots were unaware of it and when they were decided to conduct it as part of their own training.
At the time there were oportunities to get your own TR (shed 360etc) which a few of my collegues did, again to no avail.
Eventually took up instructing and this was the life saver the hours built up meant that I was eligable for the survey/air taxi market this meant that i was in a secure job when 9/11 came along and 2 years later in the right place for a regional TP job eventually leading to LH seat.
Facts - then it took most of my collegues nearly 2 years to get an airline job, with a recession this will be much much longer.
The training organisations did and always will try and sell an extra course a special asset of the school etc that will make you stand out from the crowd.
MOL making you pay for everything including the interview started some time ago, however beware paying for a TR that is not part of an airlines recruitment procedure. By that I mean I would not recomend buying a 737 rating and using that to market yourself - most training departments are wary of someone who has been trained elswhere to diferant standards.
Military axiom - no plan survives contact with the enemy, but in our business no plan survives contact with reality.
Hopefully your post will open the eyes for others before they spend large some of cash - but I doubt it.
As others have said: keep current, keep your finger on the pulse job wise and good luck.:)

[student88]

SAWAYA - it's all too easy for you to tell someone to be quiet but are you offering any advice? If you don't like what you read don't bother responding with a pointless post which just wastes everybodys time and bandwidth.

[de la Mare]

I agree with Student88, people post on here all the time to express their feelings and opinions but more so people post seeking advice. And if you could read between the lines the guy is also asking for some advice/help whilst expressing vulgarity of airline training school’s empty promises and misleading facts. He’s not asking for BA or Thomas Cook or any other high fliers, he’s asking for a job that makes 2 years of sheer hard work and an extreme amount of money bring home a simple pay check and a beginning.

Many of you say "take off your rose tinted glasses", "wake up an get on with it" and so on - sure there are no rose tinted glasses now, it was stated they began to fade a year on from starting the course but when your presented with figures and shown the "successful students in jobs within 6 months" board no-one would EVER think to look how many times students names were repeated on that board. And when flying is what you really want to do and the training is what you have to do to get that job no-one listens to the voice of reason or doubt until it is too late. And Skippy is not the only one to have made that mistake, everyone does it because people only hear what they want to hear and the airline training schools feed it to them.

Timzsta “Skippy - stop whingeing and do something about it! If don't want to or can't do anything about it get out of aviation. You need to wake and smell the roses.”

My rebuttal to this uncouth remark (and what I can only assume is an attempt to “wake” member Skippy up and get on with it so to speak) is this: it is so easy to type such things and give little consideration to what lengths the thread beginner has perhaps already gone to before even writing their first post.

I know for a fact that this member has applied for a job in Africa that would keep him away from his family for 5 weeks at a time just so that his training will have not gone completely to waste and to be able to bring home a pay check to help support his family. I think this is a very realistic member here and perhaps even (in another view) slightly desperate in the sense of not wanting to let that rosy dream completely fade away, although it’s pretty much gone. No-one would ever think that their training will leave them on some remote dusty airfield in the middle of Africa. Could any of you who have families, wives or partners imagine doing the same?

Also again very simple to say if you can’t get a job in aviation get out and get one else where. But realistically who wants to employ someone who hasn’t worked for 2 years? It is not as easy as it sounds.

If you have useful tips, advice, constructive suggestions then please post them here, and thank you to those who already have. I’m sure Skippy and many other low hours pilots would be exceptionally grateful. If you have something stroppy to write then I suggest you don’t waste the time or energy; I respect your opinions, really I do, but I don’t think it’s right to kick a man when he’s already down, I prefer to offer a hand especially if it gives them a chance of finding work in the UK and they can go home to their family at the end of the day.

[BWFiftyworld]

Tzimsha - Having made you views quite clear, why not go back to the original post and have a look at the question - he was asking about TRTO's and how much one is supposed to be expected to spend on one's training. I don't believe he fell for any FTO spin (pardon the pun). From what I can see, when "times is good" everyone gets a job; when they're not so good, modular guys with time (inc on type) may well get jobs as easily as integrated pilots, but 1) modular+hours building takes a year or two or three; 2) integrated low hours pilots will get jobs as FO's in airlines where they want relatively low cost hires and consistency of training. It seems to me to be a tradeoff - cost -v- time to qualify. The nearer it gets to 2-3 years after qualification to get a job, the more the cost gap narrows (i.e. the sooner one starts paying any loan off, the quicker it goes down) and I'm sure you'd all rather be in an airline job sooner if possible. By all means, give the benefit of your experience - BUT we can all find something to be bitter about without any help from others...! Good luck to you as well...:)

[D O Guerrero]

Timzsta.... Let me guess - you went to the University of Life?

[Desk-pilot]

Deskpilot, do you accept that a recession now is afoot which will be at least equal to the 1990-91 recession?

- I don't think it will be as prolonged as 90-91, but I do think it will last 12-18 months and that it will impact recruitment for the next 2-3 years.

I actually think the sad reality is that flying is a career more akin to being an actor or musician. There are far more people training than will ever make a living at it. It isn't marketed that way by the schools but if you accept that there are only around 8000-10000 commercial pilots in the UK then you can see how small the job market really is compared to other professions such as law, armed forces, IT, sales etc. In my view the training schools should be forced (by law) to publish their actual employment results - at least for one stop modular and integrated students. It wouldn't be hard for the airlines for example to feed back to the main schools when they hire a candidate from a particular school and for the school to collate the results. At least then people would go into training with their eyes open to the real statistics.

Training for this career is a high risk gamble even in the good times. In the bad times you might as well go to a casino.

To anyone looking for a job now I really do wish you good fortune, but the real point of my post was to say try not to let the flying thing make you miserable while you job hunt - it is believe it or not (and I say this after 18 months on the line) just a job at the end of the day. It can be very enjoyable and satisfying but also frustrating and tiring. I do like it a lot more than my old IT job, indeed I like it as much as anyone can reasonably expect to enjoy their work but it isn't quite as glamorous, well paid and glitzy as the outside world thinks it is and when the alarm goes off at 4.15am I'm not always filled with feelings of bliss and contentment!

Hope you're enjoying the DB9 WWW ;-)

Desk-pilot

[Aerospace101]

At least then people would go into training with their eyes open to the real statistics

If they published the true results then people wouldnt go into flight training!!

[VFE]

My advice to anyone recently qualified would be to get a decent paid job, repay as much debt as you can, whilst keeping reasonably current (once a month) at your local flying club. Even an instructor rating right now would be, in my opinion, a waste of money unless you can secure an offer of employment beforehand. Regardless, you will make the contacts and gauge requirements for instructors much better if you get down your local club and start making yourself available to help out in any way you can. They call it networking. You will meet faces and names who might be able to help you secure a job when things start to pick up. One thing is for certain - muck spreading CV's and logging onto PPRuNe every day will only serve to erode your enthusiasm, far better to spend your days helping out on the radio, refuelling aircraft and generally being on hand to assist your friendly flying club. If you don't have one then seek out the nearest and pay them a visit. Nothing should be beneath someone with a fresh licence and 250 hours, the straight forward part of the mission is completed and now the battle really begins! It is all you can do right now to stay in the loop and give yourself a fighting chance.

People are keen to help those who show willingness against the odds in this game - remember that.

Best advice I can give.

VFE.

[oapilot]

Skippy, going right back to your original point about bully boy tactics by your FTO, in my humble opinion, I wouldn't worry. Can only speak from experience but having fallen foul of my FTO for standing up on a matter of principle which affected my whole course, I found myself with a less than glowing end of school comment from the senior FTI.

I was devastated at the time, but really, the comment is only relevent (as someone pointed out earlier) if the FTO has a candidate selection process on behalf of its students with airlines who are recruiting.... Having qualified at the end of 2002, there were no airline jobs, so even those with glowing reports weren't getting anywhere. By the time the market started moving again, the airlines were more interested in guys and girls who were recently qualified and therefore more likely to be current and a better gamble, so the FTOs opinions were by then worthless.

I recall reading WWWs comments all those years ago and the man has a spookily accurate finger on the pulse of the market. You may want to hope he is wrong, but all too often he isn't.

In one respect, the length and depth of the recession is irrerlevant to those of you who have recently qualified or are about to be, and are looking for that first break. It is going to take some time for things to free up again and in that time there will be others pouring out of the schools with shiny new fATPLs and boundless optimism. Your challenge therefore is to not lose the motivation to get that first job, network all you can, find some cost effective way of keeping your skills current and most importantly take a leaf out of desk pilots book and find a coping mechanism to keep your sanity.

It IS worth the effort and if you do get a job you will love it (for an indeterminate length of time anyway:E).

However, be warned, not everyone will get a flying job and its random chance - the best guy on my course was first reserve after his one interview and never ever got another sniff of a job. Sorry for that sobering thought, but you have to be focused AND realistic.

All the very best.

oap

[Rj111]

There are clearly two prerequisits to becoming a pilot the hard way. You have to love flying, and you have to be literally insane.

I sympathise with the OP, but it also true that the industry owes you nothing and i don't think any of us can complain about the variety of hoops we have to jump through just to get... well, nowhere. Only we are responisible for our literally insane actions. If none of us indulged in those actions, the airlines wouldn't ask for insane requirements.

I have decided i shall just fly and gradually train for leisure and stick to my IT job. And if some opportunity comes along at some point in my life to make it to the RHS, then that is just a massive bonus. If not i will one day buy a nice little second hand C152 and wizz around in that at the weekends.

[VFE]

The differences in 'flying' a C152 and being paid to monitor and manage the sophisticated electronics of a modern jet are two seperate entities linked purely by the obvious fact they have wings and go up. I would suggest your plan is the most sensible yet as being employed to do the latter is about as far removed from 'flying' a C152 as you could possibly imagine yet remaining in essentially the same mode of transport. If it's just the escape which flying presents that you seek then I would strongly recommend you stick to your plan and save yourself thousands of queens heads!

VFE.