Will CX honour all the DEC s from KA?

[trevfly]

The guys in CX may find that the best thing the downturn is good for is an immediate hold for all those hordes of KA freighter crew currently doing their upgrades out of any seniority.

Do we expect that CX will still convert these guys, even without a current requirement? I dunoo, but its not looking too rosey for all these mainly none unionised guys KA jumping up the slippery pole of grabbing whats not theirs to take.

The first of 40 are been rubber stamped, about 81 guys in total (DEFO, DEC).

We dont have to look too far to find where the first furloughs might come from :p

Im not trying to be nasty, but these ex FCS guys, who have berated KA and the opportunities it offered them, now find the heat may be back on them.

Should have stayed guys, taken your positions IN seniority (yes some of you would have had to become FOs), and at least have the respect of your fellow pilots within the company.

[volarecantare]

Trevfly, have you not taken that advice and spoken to some professional to get all that resentment off your chest? All that bitterness, It can't be good for you. So you didn't follow your heart and now resent the advice you took from your Union, and you are spending your time wishing bad on those guys who took their own decisions regarding their career.

I hope the old karmic sting of what you put out there comes back at you at twice the speed does not worry you.

And no you are not "TRYING" to be nasty you ARE being nasty. You sit there full of resentment in KA and come on here trying to stir us up in CX against your colleagues because they did what you did not have the backbone or maybe the passport to do...

:rolleyes:

[Fly747]

Trev is pissed in more ways than one.
He does have a point though about whether we need DECs when we are about to ground 5 x 777s. Let's see what the new BOP and the response to that brings.

[Table For 1]

Hmmmm...I hear there is a building over the road that is an empty shell. In the vast marketing opportunity that China presented there is a Company that is returning aircraft off-lease.......

If I was Trevfly maybe I might look closer to home for where the Group might have too many pilots now......

And which pilots are now adopting their owners SOPs........

Hmmmmm....you cannot deny the inevitable Trev; you will be going Green at some point in the future...just a matter of when not if......and then ha, ha you will join the seniority list behind all those guys that you had no backbone to support when all this unfolded...

Now where is your hat Trev:ok:

[trevfly]

Seems no one feels particularly aggrieved about the DEC/FOs from KA, even at times like these. Great, then turning green and keeping my seniority, recent payrise etc will be a breeze in our future assimilation, Like that movie, invasion of the body snatchers, it all happens when you are asleep.

Cant think why anyone would care what SOPs were/are adopted. Unlike our counterparts at green wash city, most at KA have been in several companies. We are flexible, which is more than can be said for the self appointed CP from across the road.

The guys joining CX made their choice, as we all did. They acted en masse, with decisions made based on rumours floating around the gaybar. Most are mavericks, charlatans or just plain lazy. Will be interesting to see them turn up in a tie for once, but not a union one.

[volarecantare]

and homophobic as well Trev...me thinks the "lady doth protest to much"...

If malice or envy were tangible and had a shape, it would be the shape of a boomerang. ~Charley Reese

[sisyphos]

trevfly, you are aiming at the wrong target. KA guys weren't asked wether they want their company to be bought by CX.
What is unacceptable however, is a DEC from OASIS ( or any other company )!

[A. Le Rhone]

Trev - you still don't understand do you?

Whilst I agree that non-union members are a dead weight on the rest of those who do pay their annual fees, you are completely missing reality.

CX has screwed the KA DEC's over. They have not given any of them anything more than they were offering some COMPLETE AND UNKNOWN STRANGER OFF THE STREET. Their time in KA amounted to absolutely nothing. They could have been pilots from Guatamala Airlines for all CX cared.

In spite of some of them having been in KA for over 17 years, the KA pilots going to CX still had to undergo command-training again - in spite of the fact that they had already flown many of the very same airframes AS CAPTAINS when these aircraft were in KA COLOURS. Many of them were long-term Captains and TIREs etc.

Is there something ambiguous about this?

Is there something vague here that you don't have the processing skills to comprehend? I'm not sure what your amateur muckraking is trying to achieve but perhaps get a grasp of the facts before you mouth-off. You also potentially do yourself a future disservice.

Moving on.

Controversial Statement: Should the 'inevitable' actually be inevitable and the two groups do merge, then seniority should be based on DoJ the original entity, with a "Y" system to protect both groups of pilots. That way CX pilots (particularly S/O's and inexperienced F/O's) will be able to bid over to KA as F/Os for the flying experience and potentially KA pilots could bid over to CX to get away from the hell-hole that is routine flying into China. This is a tried and proven system that protects all involved.

It is so simple even those who post brainless items on PPRuNe could understand it.

[And Then]

Cathay pilots didn't take-over KA. :rolleyes:

What is cheap, efficient and keeps the entire pilot group splintered? That will be the way forward.

Still believe the KA pilots better off trying to stay separate.

[Very Tired]

Trevfly.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:rolleyes::rolleyes::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zz z:

Rhone, you are correct in that a Y system is by far the best system that protects the career opportunities of all involved. I would suggest that both committees are already well down the road of discussing this possibility.

[Jack57]

Gents - Please don't kid yourselves.

Very few guys would apprecate being transferred to KA and having to fly domestic China routes. That's not what they signed on for when they joined CX.

You may find a few SO's with low flying hours value some stick time above any kind of job satisfaction but it wouldn't be the norm.

I don't believe there is any merit in the joining of seniority lists and I don't believe the powers that be think any differently

Cheers

[hongkongfooey]

You may find a few SO's with low flying hours value some stick time above any kind of job satisfaction but it wouldn't be the norm

So, you reckon the average S/O would rather be making bunks and sandwiches for the next 2-3 years than actually flying an aircraft, even if it is in China :confused:
Not everyones idea of a great flying job is sitting in an aircraft for 12-15 hours at a time and doing 2 t/offs and landings a month.:rolleyes:

I don't believe there is any merit in the joining of seniority lists and I don't believe the powers that be think any differently


100% agree with you on this one

[RSPinhaler]

So, you reckon the average S/O would rather be making bunks and sandwiches for the next 2-3 years than actually flying an aircraft, even if it is in China http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

Yep, I would. I joined CX as an S/O to fly long haul and have the time off that goes with it. Not interested at all to fly for KA on the 320. A situation like the one described by A.LR would make me look for another job...again.

Btw, S/Os don't make sandwiches, they just eat them :E

[A. Le Rhone]

Jeez...why bother taking up a flying career then if you don't want to fly?
You may not want to but there are very many pilots who actually LIKE to fly and are frustrated at being stuck in the back watching others do it.

Nobody would force the CX S/O or lazy F/O (I can't believe there are that many in CX like lthe previous embarrassing RSP) to go to KA, they could bid for it if they wished to increase their skills and increase their chances of success when Command time comes around. It would certainly help improve the CX pass rate.

When succesful takeovers occur the carriers have usually opted for either a Y system or direct or a variation of simple Date of Joining.

[And Then]

The current KA Chief Pilot is on loan from CX. I am sure he could attest to the fact the learning curve in China is steep but achievable.

[Jack57]

Incorrect.

Many guys value lifestyle, time off, family etc well above poling an aircraft but still enjoy their job. I would not swap a long haul lifestyle for any amount of multi sector days bombing Chinese ports and I do believe many of my colleagues would feel the same way. There are always exceptions.

The reality is that many guys joined CX or KA for their own reasons. And I believe many guys would feel the way the previous poster described.

Please explain why RSP is "embarrassing" simply because he doesn't want your job????

[Kitsune]

This is a real example of the dichotomy within the aircrew world across the globe.... one side does the 'cloud strewn glory of the skies/Fate is the Banter' thing, and to the other side flying is just a well paid, not particularly difficult under normal circumstances, usually (hopefully!) boring job. I always subscribed to the latter view, and would always rather have more days off than more flying if available....... :cool:

[aumexican]

The current KA Chief Pilot is on loan from CX. I am sure he could attest to the fact the learning curve in China is steep but achievable.


Ummmm "and then":rolleyes:
I think you will find the KA chief pilot doesn't go into china, Japan only.
He only seems to do Fukuoka:}
and he chooses his own roster!

[Liam Gallagher]

You can polish the turd all you like.... very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very.... few CX pilots would welcome the opportunity to fly KA rosters and would therefore oppose any Integration.

If we wanted to fly KA aircraft we would have joined KA and besides, we like to wear hats:}

That said CX pilots have opposed ASL, A Scale Pay Cuts in 99, RP01, RP04, RP06, COS08, DEC's and they have all happened..... :ugh:

[A. Le Rhone]

Jack 57 - NOT incorrect.

You might want to sit at home and that's fair enough (so do I) but lots of young motivated FO's and SO's just want to fly. You don't speak for them.

What is very embarrassing about RSP is not that he doesn't want 'my' job but his attitude (don't want to work, just want to veg, complain heaps on PPRUNE and get paid lots). This is apparently seen so often in candidates who subsequently fail command training. They then bleat and moan about the rotten training department being a bunch of wankers but haven't had the intelligence/drive to get off their asses and work for their commands.

Liam says 'we' don't want to join KA, (and you never will have to). But you don't speak for the CX pilots as a whole - what you only have the right to say is you personally don't fancy it. You have no right to potentially deny some young guy, cadet or whatever, who wants to get off his ass, go over to KA and improve his skills by actually flying an aircraft rather than just watching.

You don't have the right to say what the collective 'we' want, only what you think.

[RSPinhaler]

Le Rhone
Jack 57 is right. I don't want your job. Otherwise I would have applied to KA, not CX. And suppose I wanted to fly short haul ops on 320 or 737, I would have gone to a LoCo back in good old Europe, definetely not China.
But don't get me wrong, I do not say you guys are wrong. If it suits you, fine! Please accept that a lazy S/O lifestyle suits me. Besides I am over 35, with more than 5000 hrs mainly on medium jet, so believe me I have done my bits of T/Os and LDGs on crapy airfields, with all sorts of weather, and polished my skills as you say. But spending more time with my kids appears more important to me than tossing the stick. What's wrong with that?
As a matter of fact I am looking forward to flying one of our jet, but again the lifestyle is more important.

What is very embarrassing about RSP is not that he doesn't want 'my' job but his attitude (don't want to work, just want to veg, complain heaps on PPRUNE and get paid lots).

Before judging, you might find that this was my first post on Pprune and concerning the 1st year S/O salary....well should I say more?

I was told KA guys are more relax than their counterparts at CX. I hope you're the exception.

[A. Le Rhone]

You didn't read the previous - I didn't say YOU were interested in anything, but OTHERS might be, you don't have the right to answer for them.

Not judging but 5000hrs isn't that much and sitting about not flying and then possibly doing a command well into your 40's might be a bit of an uphill battle. Allowing some young guy to go over to KA is a great idea and don't complain if he then gets a command ahead of you because you're not up to scratch.

So there is a very great benefit in CX allowing guys to go over to KA namely faster commands for them and better standards all round as pilots aren't wasting away in the back seat. If you don't like that idea then so be it but don't assume to block the concept for others.

And yes, I'm a grumpy pr!ck!

[RSPinhaler]

I never said it wasn't a good idea and never pretended to speak for the whole CX S/O-F/O corps. I just replied to a simple question asked by hongkongfooey, and I only spoke for myself.
As of another S/O junior to me, having gone through KA and getting a command ahead of me... on the KA fleet ok, cause that's what he supposedely choosed and I turned it down. On a CX a/c, probably not. I still have faith in something called "seniority". But I am probably fooling myself on that one.

And yes, I'm a grumpy pr!ck!
At least, you seem to have a sense of humour!:)

[Liam Gallagher]

Firstly, I am having trouble understanding your concept of Integration. You seem to speak of an Integration where pilots will chose if they integrate or not and can therefore isolate themselves from any negative impacts. You will have to explain that one to me.

I understand that an integration would be good news for KA pilots, and I applaud your efforts in spinning the argument. However, the facts are an Integration would generally be good news for one group and bad news for the other. KA pilots (particularly those with seniority) would gain access to CX bases and lifestyle rosters; something that KA doesn't presently have. CX's pilots would gain access to shorthaul out of HKG; something already offered with the 777 and 330.

You can bang the drum all you like about the merits of shorthaul flying. The SO population is probably 300 pilots out of 2500. Of those 300, I am confident that the numbers who would welcome an Integration would be between 150 and 0 (probably closer to 0 actually). For the other 2200 CX pilots about 300 are senior Capts who are where they want to be and couldn't care less, leaving 1900 pilots who stand to lose a lot from an Integration for no apparent gain. It is this body of pilots, the overwhelming majority, who would not welcome an Integration.

You may think that people like me are dictating to others how it is going to be.... I am flattered... however that's a wishful but false perception. CX pilots long ago lost any power over their careers. The day the company thinks an Integration is a good idea, that's the day it will happen. I wager that the company sees the geography the way I do and do not want to upset the majority.......

[And Then]

LIam

I disagree. There would be little advantages to integrating with CX.

Slow promotion and a diluted DPA. Also more overt intrusions of CX cockpit culture into KA.

You are right. The KA guys pushing integration probably have a personal agenda. Not unlike the treachery of the Hong Kong report option ie: access to lifestyle basings.

[Liam Gallagher]

When dealing with decisions that effect a large group, you have to talk in generalizations and I am perfectly happy to accept that there will be genuine exceptions to the most common view of the group. For you the prospect of CX bases etc are not attractive enough to sacrifice things important to you; a fair and honest view. Equally, you must appreciate that many of your colleagues, and I suggest the majority of colleagues, do not share your view.

I have no problem with anyone holding either view (or something in between) and equally I have no problem with them being motivated by self-interest. However, they need to honest about it and not come on here promoting ideas that they know will be bad for me, and yet come up with BS arguments that somehow I will benefit from it..... we get enough of that shoite from our own senior pilots and don't need it from yours...

Have any of the CX guys heard this little beauty..."I and going back into Training on the 400 so I can help guys get their commands ..."

[broadband circuit]

I and going back into Training on the 400 so I can help guys get their commands ...


I'd much rather hear "I'm going back into training on the 400 so that I can chop some DECs"

[volarecantare]

Just a question on the hats things...was there any discussion with your DPA before removing the hats? If not a precedent has been set and it might be your trousers next.;)

[hongkongfooey]

Thats alright V, will make it easier to insert pineapples :}