Facebook - VS crew is not alone... BA groups have similar problem

[VAFFPAX]

According to The Register, the VA 13 were fired (as we already know from the VA Facebook thread), but there is a similar incident at BA, where BA staff were less than flattering post-T5 opening, including less-than-flattering comments about their customers.

The significant difference though is that BA didn't fire the 'perpetrators', but rather worked to resolve the problem by addressing the issue with the individuals internally. Or so it is claimed:

Virgin sacks the Facebook 13, BA customers stink ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/03/virgin_sackings_ba_rudeness/)

Thought I'd share. :-)

S.

[OzzieO]

This is getting out of hand.

Why not extend this to every industry?

Must be a really slow day for the media.

[Virginia]

Pathetic really. Staff moan about their passengers-many passengers are awful and staff verbally moan about them, no-one can stop them doing that, are people really so sensitive that they can't deal with the fact staff DO moan about them and there is nothing they can do about it? Get a bloody life.

So we have a global economic crisis and the Congo crisis and people are fussed over a few comments on Facebook. Sad really.

[OzzieO]

Oh Virginia you have made my day.

Fab posting. :D

[747-436]

This only seems to have been reported in the last few days, BA says it is talking to those concerned, might end up the same way as VS.

[flapsforty]

Virginia, you know what is "pathetic really" ?
People who sign a contract and a code of conduct, and then promptly forget what they signed.
People who are too dim to privatise a Facebook page where they endanger their jobs by going against the contract they have signed.
People who don't even respect their own jobs.
People who are too stupid to understand that they are committing professional suicide

Really pathetic is defending these utter morons on PPRuNe, a website meant for aviation professionals.

[jacquelinee]

Global economic crisis and Gongo crisis? Why complain about anything when you have those two crisis to worry about? That is not the issue!

Perhaps a bit of appreciation would be in order. Moaning about your customers. Bear in mind that these people are paying your salary. Being poorly treated and having to deal with passengers that are awful are part of the job. Still, it pays your salary. Take it or leave it. The decision isn't that difficult.

I can't believe their behaviour and that they actually did this openly with their identities revealed on a community. Face the facts and the outcome. The reality can be harsh!

[Virginia]

I think there are far bigger things to worry about than some badly paid ground staff who don't get any respect having a bit of a moan on Facebook.

I don't have a Facebook page and don't post anything under my real name on the Net.

So I don't agree with you and I guess that makes me pathetic. Frankly I have more pressing concerns than wondering what some faceless names on some random internet forum think of me and my thoughts. They are my thoughts and you calling me pathetic won't make me change what I think.

[c130jbloke]

Even though what you think is rubbish. As for the Facebook lot, what a bunch of fools :uhoh:

[Virginia]

I'm sure you moan about your job jacquelinee. Or is that ok because you don't moan about it in public? Or are you offended that people who serve you moan about you? How dare people have thoughts and feelings.

Yes they made an error in judgement but I doubt any passengers even saw it. I wouln't take offence if staff in Tesco had a Facebook page complaining about customers. Why would I?

You cannot stop people having a good moan. Most of us just don't do it in a public area. Blah blah the customers pay your wages. Yes they keep the airline going but so do lots of other things. Why should we have to put up with rude and abusive people? Some people are just horrible. I will continue my independant thoughts thank you.

[Virginia]

My opinion is my opinion and therefore by default cannot be wrong.

You cannot stop me thinking that just as I cannot stop you thinking your thoughts.

[c130jbloke]

My opinion is my opinion and therefore by default cannot be wrong.

You sure about that ?

Seems to me that you think the pax are surplus to needs and what's the problem with front line employees biting the hand that feeds them (and a lot of other people who did nothing wrong or stupid). :bored:

[OzzieO]

I actually cannot believe what I am reading. The whole world is going barking mad.

I'm with Virginia.

[Virginia]

c130jbloke-yes how can someone's OPINION be wrong when it's their OPINION. Personal viewpoint.

I don't vent in front of pax, I don't mention my companies name, I don't post on Facebook. So what's wrong with venting in private? Or are you so perfect you never whinge? YES they were unwise to post on a public forum but that shouldn't be a sackable offence. Comments removed, spoken to by management and told not to repeat it.

OzzieO-thank you. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

[c130jbloke]

Perfect ? No, only for the first 30 seconds of my life, then downhill all the way :E

Stupid ? No way. As for why I think you have lost the point, you have indirectly condoned their position by not condemning them. As for their "private opinion", totally agree but FB is not exactly private. If they use their employer's name in any situation then their "opinion" is what the company tells them. If they want to go free spirit, then great and good luck. But I am totally with the executive on this one and if they lost their jobs as a result of their stupidity then that's their problem.

Think about it, what other position could VS ( and I suspect BA too ) have adopted ? Passengers read FB too and the company position is that the average Mk 1 pax is right up there next to god. Treat the pax like crap and see where it goes....

Therefore, to protect the company ( your employer perhaps ? ) your position is that they were totally in the wrong and that to fire them was the logical and correct response.

See - easy really:ok:

[VAFFPAX]

Considering that I started this latest thread, I'd like to just point out that there's no problem with having private (i.e. invite only) groups on FB which are for staff only (similar to the airline-specific sounding boards on PPRuNe), but the big problem that faces the airlines is that newspapers like The Sun got access to these postings, and that yes, because it is posted at a third-party (like PPRuNe or FB), it raises issues about the image of the company concerned, or how management views the threat to the image of the company concerned.

The reason I posted this was to show that it is not only Virgin Atlantic who have this, but British Airways have a similar situation on their hands, which, by the looks of it, they are trying to handle internally without involving the likes of The Sun. Social networking sites like LinkedIn (a SN site for 'professionals') and FB have their place, but these sites blur the line between who you represent between 9 and 5 (figuratively speaking) and who you represent the rest of the time.

Security organisations like Sophos have indicated in the past that FB and others, when left at default settings, still leak more information than what people intend (just look at the fiasco involving Bono and two young girls who met him a while ago and whose photos can be misconstrued as him having affairs while away from home), so if you DO have a FB group or belong to one, be careful what you post. Assuming that everyone on a group is kosher is not good practice (as PPRuNe members have intimated in the past).

So yes, Virginia and others are correct in saying that there are more pressing matters to think about, but remember, The Register is an IT-focused media organisation and because VS and BA both got caught on FB with their pants down so to speak, it is something that does affect people on here and the industry that everyone here is part of.

Just thought I'd point out that this is not about a slow newsday, but an early warning that if you belong to the customer-facing side of the airline business and you have groups like these scattered all over, you had better make sure that they are secured in such a way that gutter rags like The Sun, News of the World etc do NOT get access to their content.

S.

[Virginia]

The sacked staff will most likely earn more on benefits than they did at the airline anyway.

[mr ripley]

The reason I started this thread is because:

I am stirring and trying to deflect attention from VS

Some alternative bogus reason

You choose

[VAFFPAX]

Sorry, I don't work for VS if that's what you're trying to imply. And there is no bogus other reason. I was clear as to why I posted about it. :-)

S.

[Tudor]

The axe I have to grind with this whole BA/VS Facebook affair is that if the people involved worked in another industry it would barely merit a mention anywhere. Let's say some Virgin Media staff had a Facebook page claiming that their set-top boxes (or whatever they flog) were likely to combust and that their satellite dishes enhanced the stone cladding on their customer's council houses. Or British Gas engineers made similar disparaging remarks about their customers and company's equipment, would they lose their jobs and/or provoke a media outcry? I don't think they would.

In the past, having worked as cabin crew and overseas as a holiday rep, I have detected resentment bordering on jealousy on several occasions from customers. I think this is because the industry is perceived as being glamorous and this fuels some people's resentments. They resent that you live out in the sun AND get paid for it while they save up all year for a week's holiday. They resent the fact that the seat they paid £500 for, you can travel in it for a fraction of that price. They probably don't resent the bank cashier who gets a far superior deal on her mortgage than they do or the supermarket shelf stacker who gets 15% discount on their shopping whilst they pay full whack because these jobs are unlikely to incite envy. Cabin crew are like sitting ducks waiting to be shot at and almost everything you do on and off board is open to public scrutiny. Quite why this should be I don't know, perhaps you don't agree with me?

Do I think VS made the right decision? Frankly yes, I think the crew's foolish behaviour left their positions untenable. However the disparity between the travel industry and other industries is quite perplexing.

[TightSlot]

It's really not very complicated.

All of the staff involved, in both airlines have placed their employers in a position where they have no option but to take some sort of action: They assisted their employers by making their own identities publicly accessible.

This is sometimes known as Darwin in action.

As some others in the herd stand staring in dumb amazement at the bodies on the ground, there are two options available.

1: Learn from the experience.

2: Fail to learn from the experience.

Virginia - you're behaving like a drunk in a bar, stumbling around, bumping into people, looking for a way to start a fight. Go home please, and sleep it off. If you wake up and still find yourself believing that you are the Guardian Angel of Free Speech & Democracy, then you won't have sobered up yet.

[Matt101]

personally I find it all exceedingly boring unfortunately gutter rags like the mail and my employers don't find it quite so dull. Thankfully I only moan under a pseuydonym (though it is a rubbish one!) Facebook seems to be more a
Method of stalking people anyway.

[Tercarley]

As flaps 40 said, when you join Virgin you sign a contract to the effect that you will not bring the company into disrepute etc etc etc.

Also it takes a chav to recognise another one - if thats the case. !!!!!

Having had first hand experience of Virgin (professionally of course) cabin crews some of them leave a lot of them to be desired in their attitudes to each other!!!!!!

[MrWomble]

When you look at some of the things their owner does you wonder just what a member of Virgin's CC must do to bring the company into disrepute!

[Tercarley]

Thats as maybe but he owns VA and he didnt sign a contract!!!!!!!

[Tiger]

If your daft enough to have pics and your name on a site then write things which are possibly not accurate or half the picture then your kinda asking for it really. Unfortunately, it was probably some evening when you`d had a bad day knocked back a glass or too many wines.. (breezer for the chav`s) and then post something perhaps you wouldn`t normally do. Even on here you see it.

The amazing thing is then joe public read this in the press/newspaper website and then they get to have their tuppence worth or comments. Which of course runs negative views, including they know what happens coz their next door neighbours second cousin works there too and their hairdressers son`s friend knows their mothers sister who works at that airline and its all true!:)

Now to my title.. Dating sites. Also run some risk too. The varrious frequent flyer groups have been know to start a grumble about a flight they had with airline you work for.
I`ve even had guys (around 4 so far) hit on me from chat/dating sites who have said "hey I recognise you from my flight to..from.." etc..
mmm pleased I don`t put the butt naked pics on my profiles.. Just a thought and little something that may not cross your minds when putting those compromising photos of yourself. Yep I agree free time is your free time and do what you please, but I was a bit taken back by those guys, and matters worse, sometimes there pics are missing their head/face.

[c130jbloke]

That's because they are **** ugly :uhoh::uhoh:

(Just my opinion)

C130JB

PS: Still think the FB mob should burn in hell:}

[EI-CFC]

The axe I have to grind with this whole BA/VS Facebook affair is that if the people involved worked in another industry it would barely merit a mention anywhere. Let's say some Virgin Media staff had a Facebook page claiming that their set-top boxes (or whatever they flog) were likely to combust and that their satellite dishes enhanced the stone cladding on their customer's council houses. Or British Gas engineers made similar disparaging remarks about their customers and company's equipment, would they lose their jobs and/or provoke a media outcry? I don't think they would.

You might be surprised. Big company A is as good a news story as Big company B, and the news world (much as we may think otherwise) doesn't resolve solely around aviation.

As someone else mentioned, most contracts (including most I've ever had) have clauses about not bringing the company into disrepute, which is clearly what happened here.

I've very little sympathy for anyone of those involved in these two incidents to be honest.

[Biggles225]

As one who has been relegated to being old and fat and SLF, I'm finding out first hand just how objectionable some passengers can be, and frankly I'm apalled, but then that's people for you! However comma, as CC, dealing with them on your aircraft or airline is the job you took on, so like the rest of us, grin and bear it, and vent your spleen at the bar, or somewhere private and anonymous like the pprune dedicated areas amongst like thinking people, and not on a social site where you can be identified.
Added to which, it's not very nice for passengers to know that the CC think they are smelly objectionable objects, even if they are! On that basis alone it affects a passengers perception of the airline, and I can understand management taking a dim view of it. Im not sure sacking is an appropriate solution, to me it would seem like a knee jerk reaction to a bad press, but a spot of ' hats on, no tea and bikkies counselling' would be fitting.

Incidentally I DO resent anyone with however crappy a job getting a discount on anything, mainly because I don't get one and only have a free bus pass and pensioners discount at Focus on a Wednesday to look forward to. :}

Fly safe and keep smiling

[Evanelpus]

..........or was it a perfect excuse to lower the head count level?

[girtbar]

Its wrong for crew to have a good moan? How many of you are sat moaning right now? Its a basic human reaction to have a good moan about something.

How many of us are British and by virtue like to moan? Moaning is a British institution!

Unwise yes to post publicly with face pics and name visible, but how do we know that group didn't start out private and someone had an axe to grind and made it public?

We're all quick to point the finger condemn them to hell or what ever (grow up), but aren't we all safe in the fact we're perfect and would never do something silly.....ever?!

Really sacking them was a little bit OTT, crew have done much much worse than that!

Fecking chavy pax, dodgy plasticy flying airbus, call bell pressing cattle.....D'oh!

[c130jbloke]

Dirtbar:

We're all quick to point the finger condemn them to hell or what ever (grow up), but aren't we all safe in the fact we're perfect and would never do something silly.....ever?!

As I said to Virginia, perfect - far from it.

Done stupid stuff - hell yes, enough to fill my own thread (check out some of my previous posts if you want a laugh :eek:)

Been stupid enough to do something (really) stupid and then leave my card ? Eeeerrrrrrrr...............:E

As for the hell part, it seems that you too missed the point, their actions have a direct (and very negative ) impact on the reputation of their employer. They displayed a total lack of respect for their customers and for the company that pays their wages !!!!

So yup, toss 'em and burn 'em - because by doing so it demonstrates to the customer that their actions are totally unacceptable and will be punished to emphasise the value of the customer. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, this is more like taking both your bollocks off with a plastic spoon:ugh:

Or is it you are god squad and thought the hell reference was OTT ?

Enjoy !

C130JB

[StaceyF]

Even though what you think is rubbish. As for the Facebook lot, what a bunch of fools :uhoh:

Well I lost interest the moment Facebook was mentioned (aka a site for dysfunctionals who are unable to properly socially interact with other human beings).

But I'll add my 2 Euros........I find it ironic that today's generation are quite happy to have the current Government ride a horse and coaches through their civil liberties without so much as a whimper of protest (even today the Home Sec has proclaimed that people "can't wait" for ID cards :ugh::ugh:) and yet God-knows how many million have signed an online petition to force Facebook to rethink their site design :confused::confused::confused:

The comprehensive education system in the UK really does need a bomb put under it..........

[c130jbloke]

Well I lost interest the moment Facebook was mentioned (aka a site for dysfunctionals who are unable to properly socially interact with other human beings).

Like their customers (or employer ) ?

I rest my case :ok:

C130JB

[StaceyF]

Like their customers (or employer ) ?

I rest my case :ok:

C130JB

At my place of work, people sat six feet from each other would rather "poke" or "tickle" or "send a gift" or "write on a wall" or "play a game of Scrabulous" with each other than simply open their mouth and say "hey, fancy coming out on Friday night?"

I swear to sweet Jesus, in 10 years time we're going to be infested with an entire generation of brain dead idiots who have no concept of being able to actually *talk* to someone else.

God help every one of us :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Tudor]

I swear to sweet Jesus, in 10 years time we're going to be infested with an entire generation of brain dead idiots who have no concept of being able to actually *talk* to someone else.

I'd say it's already happening and what I find particularly alarming is it's not just 'youngsters' who are obsessed with Facebook and the like...I work with a load of women in their 40s who spend all day gossiping to each other on FB and then come into work and spend all evening regurgitating the nonsense they've been prattling on about all day. I feel like slitting my wrists some evenings.

Anyway, thread drift :O

[perceval]

ahahahahahahahahahahah .War of the websites has begun . Criticizing people networking, gossiping... on social sites while chatting on PPRUNE .Talk about straw in neighbour's eyes and the rest of it . Seriously ???

[Overdrive]

ahahahahahahahahahahah .War of the websites has begun . Criticizing people networking, gossiping... on social sites while chatting on PPRUNE .Talk about straw in neighbour's eyes and the rest of it . Seriously ???



But at least there is actually a theme to the talk/gossip here, even in Jet Blast (mostly).

[Magic Buff]

What are your views C130 about personal freedoms, you seem to go around slamming other people like Virginia for theirs, so were do you stand? I got your card son.

Now would you have it that we cant talk about our work down the pub, or in the church? come on man get a grip we are all people and people in this country have a right to express their opinions.

Or would you rather that we change the laws to suit your narrow minded and totally self centered view of the world? But, remember if we do this the wolves may come after you one day my friend when you put your great big foot in it, which we all do from time to time. People can have very very long memories, and those crew will bear a grudge for such an injustice for a very long time. Maybe one day it will be you that faces them over a desk for something you have said out of work.

If a group of people who happen to be Virgin or BA employees who want to have a chat about their job, what moral right do you or Virgin or or anybody else have to forbid them, worse still punish them for that?

It is you who are off mark my friend. Why are you attacking Virginia, on a personal level when all she has said is that she supports their right to talk about whatever they want without fear of persecution?

[c130jbloke]

You don't have my card - I never sent one, "son".:}

As for slamming, unless Virginia is a tequila I don't think so.

For freedom of speech, enjoy it mate as I do. And I suspect that I have done a lot more to protect that freedom then you ever have, so no thanks to your banal lecture. If you doubt my claim check my previous posts.

As for gobbing off in the bar / church / brothel / wherever, go right ahead. But are you really that stupid to not think that if you criticise a group ( eg fare paying passengers) perhaps there may be some comeback ? So use your freedoms and here are some examples:

Snow is white.

See, easy.

Try this one:

All Virgin pax (including myself as I used them to fly to JFK) are to§§ers !

Again no problem for me (secret clue: have never been involved with VS as anything but a customer).

Now try this one:

Put on a Virgin uniform, go to the front of T3 and shout "all Virgin pax are to§§ers !". Still got your free speech, but somehow I don't see it happening.

As for some bitter and twisted ex VS crew marking my card, whatever. Its been done before by experts and if nothing else it will keep them entertained whilst they are queuing down the job centre. If they also want to bare a grudge, then look in the mirror to find the cause. By all means "chat" but "condescend" ? Duh !!!!

So go ahead and whine that they have been hard done by.

If Virginia thinks she's been done in by me, then let her use her free speech to give it back and finally you are not my friend.:=