Working time limitations for engineers?

[Alwaysairbus]

Found this article on the net....

Speaking at the 28-30 October International Aviation Safety Seminar (http://www.flightsafety.org/seminars.html#iass) in Honolulu, shared by the IFA with the Flight Safety Foundation (http://www.flightsafety.org/home.html) and the International Air Transport Association (http://www.iata.org/index.htm), Hosey said that all the data pertaining to pilots is faithfully recorded even when they played no part in the accident cause or outcome, whereas detail about the engineer's training, health, experience, background, working hours and other salient detail is almost always omitted in reports, even when maintenance error is involved.

Hosey quoted only one recent report he was aware of in which all the appropriate detail about the engineer and his task was provided.

He said it is remarkable that this difference in attention to the detail provided about two different professional groups in relation to accidents should exist, and it may be one of the reasons why managing the risk of error during maintenance receives less detailed attention than managing the risk of pilot error.

Recording engineer working hours and patterns, including shift times and rest periods is at least as important as for pilots, Hosey argued, because the pilot's task can, at high-risk periods, generate adrenaline that can help overcome the affects of fatigue. An engineer's task does not benefit from an adrenaline burst toward the end of a long night shift, Hosey said.

Disagree with the last statement... on the line it's normally a mad adrenaline rush from 5am onwards which normally accounts for NOT being able to get to sleep when you get home, setting up even more rest degradation.

Your thoughts and comments please....

[whiskeyflyer]

we are our own worst enemies sometimes (most pilots seem to clock their minutes work worse than a billing lawyer, while engineers will just have finished a shift but will turn around to go back to help out a situation that has arisen). Engineers hours are recorded, its call the pay role system/clocking system, (so any company that says they have no record of engineers hours worked is not really looking) maybe the proper question is why are the CAAs not looking at the engineers clocking, probably because it is not in the regs and they consider it an issue for the Labour department and labour law (FAA see it that way and labour law is a state issue). So which does an avaition company see more, the CAA inspector or the Labour department? But when you get to operators where even labour law enforcement is questionable.............. This is not an excuse however to stop off shoring work or implementation/greater union power (I have seen both distroy jobs) but making safety the primary aim using sensible modern analyitical studies.

ICAO has regulations and they being implemented here in South Africa, and so our regs will read, like ICAO
1) a period of at least 8 consecutive hours in the 24 hour period immediately before exercsing the authorisation and:
2) at least 4 periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each on the 30 days period immediately before exercising the authorisation.

The above regs not too bad I think, a balance between having space for doing some overtime and getting rest and not being abused. Pilot duty time seems to include everything from how long was spent in the toilet :E to how far they live from base, but thats another debate and we have all seen it abused

For more info on work fatigue, hours of work and things engineers do, google for these articles and reports


Fatigue Risk Assessment of Aircraft Maintenance Tasks
September 2003
Prepared for Transport Development Centre, Safety & Security Transport Canada

Transport: Rhythm and Blue
2000
Simon Folkard D.Sc, University of Wales

Advisory Circular 120-72
September 2000
FAA

Fatigue in Transport
University of Denver

Reduce Accidents and Incidents Caused by Human Fatigue
NTSB

Work Hours of Aircraft Maintenance Personnel
CAA Paper 2002/06
UK CAA

Evaluation of Aviation Maintenance Working Environments, Fatigue and Human Performance.
January 2001
William B Johnson, Galaxy Scientific Corporation
Steven Hall, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University
Jean Watson, FAA

Fatigue Offshore: A comparison of Offshore Oil Support Shipping and the Offshore Oil Industry
Centre for Occupational & Health Psychology, Cardiff University
Seafarers International Research Centre, Cardiff University

[itwilldoatrip]

Is that Phil Hosey ex QA manager Dan's.Kettle calling the pot !!!!!!!!

[Piper19]

I once worked 4 shifts after another. Began with a night shift, did a morning shift because I had an exam at 10 am, then continued a late shift because of a human factors refresher course (!), then continued with my regular night shifts again.
On road trips it can get as worse. Fly in the morning with crew to aog a/c, fix a/c whole evening and night, fly with same crew back to homebase next morning. Only guys that got sleep were crew.
but yeah, engineers do it to themselves, I did learn from that and will ask one day hotel stay in the future.

[pjvr99]

Working time limitations for engineers?

Simple: work or you're fired. We're not human, do not need rest, feeding or any
of the other things that company execs and pilots get. We do not mind working
double shifts in blinding snow, driving rain, or blistering heat. We do not have
families that wonder when we will ever be home again ..... no need for limitations .....

[primreamer]

Engineers working hours is an age old can of worms and unfortunately will only start to be addressed properly when an accident has occurred and engineer fatigue is proven to be a causal factor. Working hours are logged for reference by the recording of individuals on their rostered shift and then any extra hours by overtime returns. However there is no upper limit to the number of hours that can be worked within a set time and the lure of double time or extra days off can sometimes sway the most disciplined of people. We've all been there at the end of a shift, "Any chance you can stay on to get this finished?" or "We've an AOG in XYZ can you go on the next flight and deal with it?" Human factors training has raised awareness of how to identify and deal with fatigue and what might happen if you don't but it is still up to the individual to admit he or she is too tired and put the tools down. The limits on pilot working hours are a cornerstone of the way they operate, they are enforced, tightly regulated and exist through years of experience, negotiation and developing working practices. To have a similar set of rules for engineers would come at a huge cost for most organisations (shouldn't be an issue but usually is) and would entail meaningful dialogue with regulatory authorities that are actually prepared to enforce those rules.

[Litebulbs]

The law is clear (ish). The maximum hours you can do per week is 48. You have to make an average calculation on this, but the law is still there. The difficult bit is convincing engineers to stop doing overtime when this limit is exceeded. Who am I to stop someone earning money? As an employee, you can opt out of this law if you choose, but I do not know of anyone who has done this yet, but I know that both employees and employers are in breach of this law. That is because both parties benefit from the arrangement.

If every engineer was on a salary, I am sure that the 48 hour per week limit would not be breached!

[2close]

The 48 hour working week rule is actually averaged over a rolling 17 week period so it is quite easy to work well over the 48 hours in any given week.

In any case, the Working Time Regs 1998 provides an opt out clause for anyone who doesn't want to be restricted to 48 hours. There are several areas outside aviation which take advantage of this, the security industry for one.

Pilots involved in Commercial Air Transport are limited to 900 hours per annum block time and 2000 hours working time - no opt out permitted - under the Civil Aviation (Working Time) Regs 2004 but pilots involved in aerial work activities are covered under the Working Time (Amendment) Regs 2003 which, like the 98 Regs, provides an opt out.

It seems a bit crazy that engineers have no effective restrictions on their working patterns. As said above, when the wheel comes off and it is proved that fatigue from working back to back shifts was a major cause then maybe someone will sit up and take notice.........although this has already been cited as a causal factor in some instances........slamming stable door after horse has bolted springs to mind!!

[supertech]

Another thing to take into consideration is if you have a second job, the hours from the second job are also included into the 48 Hr per week rule. The "Opt Out Agreement" is something that either employer or employee can bring to the table but, the only person who has the authority to withdraw this agreement and without notice given is the employee.

A lot of employers get the hump when you bring the working time directive up, but its there to safe guard every one, and as every one knows aviation is about peoples safety first and foremost!!:ok:

[tech-line]

we as engineers are our own worst enemy!
We all act tough when we are together but then can't wait for an excuse to "SHINE" so that someone above can see that we are 'company men'.
It has been stated many times on this site many times that engineers should have a maximum duty time that we should abide to ie say a maximum of 12 hours, then time to go home and rest and be with family etc,
but no matter what is said there are people out there who say screw that I want/need the O/T because either my base pay is crap or they spend more than they earn.
when will we globally be as one like the pilots!
they know how to stick together just look at how long there agreements take most are protracted and go on for years...
Why because they stick together and they get what they want.
How many times can an engineering team say that?
I say bring on mandated ours maximum duty times and higher pays for our expertice!!
we should all help each other out and demand that we too are looked after just like the pilots and other management.

[Mr.Brown]

but no matter what is said there are people out there who say screw that I want/need the O/T because either my base pay is crap or they spend more than they earn.

tech-line you don't have to be one of those people. You restrict your hours and you will have nothing to worry about. There is nothing to say you have to work all these silly hours.



I do a little (Approx 6hrs a month over the year) to stay within the agreement of my contract of employment (which states a reasonable amount of O/T is expected). I for one agree that there should be a restriction on the hours you work; like you cannot certify after after a certain number of hours.
So I sort myself out and do the minimum overtime and maybe someday a legal resriction, that you cannot opt out of, comes into force.

[tech-line]

mr brown,

I too only do the minimum amount of o/t purely for the same purpose as yourself.
I was talking in a general sense.
I look forward to the day when the authorities say you can only work 'X' amount.
Are our services less critical than anyone else in this industry?

[flyingmig21]

the irony even the cabin crew protected from serving the pax with tea& coffee after x no hours:=