How has the life of an airline pilot really changed??

[Desk-pilot]

I'm a reasonably recent entrant to the profession - only around 18 months but I'm curious how the hours flown nowadays compares with that flown in say the 1970's, 80's and nineties.

I work for a shorthaul operator in the UK and my roster is typically:

1600-1700 duty hours in 12 months
650 flying hours in 12 months
Usually 5 on 2 off
Usually around 4 days a week with 4 sectors with a duty length of 8-9 hrs per day
The other day per week is typically a standby and I get to keep about 70% of those.

I'm curious how this compares with the guys flying comparable routes in previous decades e.g. BA/BEA/Midland etc.

Interested in numbers to see how the job has really changed especially in terms of time at home.

Desk-pilot

[hunterboy]

BA....18 years ago on shorthaul......350 yrs a year
BA....12 years ago on 744.............800 yrs a year
BA.....now.............on 777.............850 yrs a year

I do work harder with less time at home. Times change and we realise that we have to be competitive. I'm not sure with whom though. It seems that our major competitors don't work as hard as we do, and still manage to make a lot of money.

[timbob]

Same drift towards 1,000 hours in the USA. Biggest change is amount of pilots who carry a third piece of luggage...suitcase and flight bag as always plus (past 10 years) a laptop/attache type bag, domestic or international...the third bag generally represents the second job/business/employment that the crewmember is pursuing to ensure financial security and the possibility of a real retirement...the goal for many is to minimize or leave the flying job altogether (where it relates to income)...choosing to perhaps fly airline trips for fun in later years, treating it more like an avocation, if the outside business is successful.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Source: My dad. 35 years at BA from 1969-2004 - 18000 hours, so an average of 514 hours a year. Equallyish split between VC-10, 737, 75/767 and 747.

Me in 2008 at a UK short haul low cost operator. 700 hours/year.

[lederhosen]

For the sake of a balanced debate there are a few plus points. Actual hours flown have reduced again recently, at least for some, since the new regulations were introduced.

The market for pilots has also expanded in such a way that a lot more people have the opportunity to fly for an airline and indeed BA than was the case back in the good old days. A lot of the jobs get you home every evening e.g. Ryanair and Easyjet.

Whilst we would all like to have enjoyed the kind of career CkocksAwayUK's dad had, the fact is that timing is everything in life. Those that joined at the right time had a great career.

Friends of mine at BA who started around ten years later ended up waiting over 20 years to get a short haul command and were not uniformly happy. They were the lucky ones, as there was almost no hiring after them for a very long time. Stories abound about being on nearly permanent standby and getting called morning after morning for the early Paris.

Everything is not perfect these days. But time to upgrade has improved. A huge number of jobs have been created and pay, at least for captains, is not bad. A lot of us are doing something we love.

Average pay and conditions have declined over the period discussed. But overall a lot more people are making a good living as a pilot (if not quite as good as the lucky few). It could also be argued that there is not a lot of leeway for things to get a lot worse. However job security remains a big issue.

[FANS]

The overall T&Cs have been fundamentally eroded.

Whilst there are more flightdeck positions, flying is now seen as akin to getting the bus by certain members of the general public and the respect awarded to pilots has also deteriorated to an extent.

It would be interesting to hear the views of pilots in the early 1980s compared to now and I would expect a thoroughly negative response - but I would also expect this in many industries, including my own.

[Man Flex]

I agree. Now it's 900 hours every year, lates to earlies, constant changes to rosters, positioning at the company's behest, poor crew meals (if any), no final salary pension, no PHI, poor moral, no team spirit, no authority, no respect.

If I knew then what I know now...

[timbob]

True. The good old days never seem to be the good old days while (whilst?) one is living them.

[Paolo]

Man Flex

900 hours? Not for me it isn't

Lates to Earlies? Love it, gives me a (sort of) day off in the middle

Constant change to rosters? It is an airline we work for, not a supermarket where I never got any "roster changes"

Positioning at companies behest? Again, if the Airline needs you at another base, whats the problem?

Poor crew meals: Never had a nice meal on an aircraft EVER

No final salary pension: No Final salary pension in any industry mate!

No PHI: Buy it yourself if you want it

Poor moral? Not on my flights mate! I like to muck in with the rest of them and make it a nice day at work

No Team spirit? see above

No respect? I still get called sir or captain...not that I need it to feed my ego!

If I knew then what I know now......I would not change a thing! Still glad I worked all those hours at Tesco on overtime to fund my ATPL get to where I am today

By the way Man flex, I work at the same company as you!!!!

[hunterboy]

Paolo...I don't want to sounds patronising....How long have you been doing the job? How do you think you'll feel in 10 or 20 years doing the same without any pension or let up as the accountants and managers turn the screw? I hope that you'll be just as content living on your non FSS and the state pension.

[RAFAT]

No final salary pension: No Final salary pension in any industry mate!

Not quite correct Paolo, a lot of UK rail operators still have final salary schemes, even for new joiners, thanks to excellent Union backing.

[HmmmgoodOJ]

Don't like it?

Quit, go work in an office or a shop or something.

You'll soon regret it.

[TAP]

There is an interesting difference between the guys who's first job was a Pilot and the guys who had to slog their way through the office to pay for their training.

The latter being the happier!

[hotelmodemetar]

If you want to get conditions and salary as great as it used to be many years ago in aviation, if you want to visit many cities in wonderful 5 star hotels, have much more than minimum rest, and fly less than 350 hours a year and have lots of free time at home, go and fly cargo :ok:
Pax is just :yuk: ( I have experience in both pax and cargo operations).

But some people here will never believe me, unless they follow my advice ;)

[Mister Geezer]

I think one major change in Europe is that night stopping crews is now viewed as an inconvenience rather than a necessity like it used to be. Airlines now like to get crews back to their home base at the end of the day and that has resulted in airlines operating with more bases. Even if terms and conditions have eroded, the fact that more people can live where they want to or close to where they want to is perhaps one if not the only redeeming factor.

In the US for example it is rare to have a crew member live anywhere near they are based. Commuting and night stopping still plays a integral part in the daily lives of our friends in the US.

I fly European short haul and whilst I do spend a fair amount of time away from home and away down route, I have had the chance to visit some places that I have throughly enjoyed seeing and those are places I would never have visited otherwise. I probably won't be able to go on like this for much longer since it does take its toll but I am glad I have done it! :ok:

[Paolo]

Hunterboy:

I have been flying for 10 years now....I understand what you're are saying it is just that I did not become an airline pilot because of a pension scheme!

RAFAT:

OK, I did not know that Rail companies still had FSS. For how much longer though?

HmmmgoodOJ:

Well said...It is what I think most of the time when people moan!!! Do people not do things for the love of it sometimes? I am still in love with flying (operating aircraft as I put it!) even more since I started in 1999! If I dreamt of being a dustbinman then that is what I would have set out to do. I set out to do this and achieving my ambition. I am sure I am not alone.

TAP:

'Nuff said!!!!!! Could not agree with you more!

If MEGA money etc is what people want, then work in the city! I would love to earn what a college chum of mine took home...83k basic is comparable to my salary but bonus of 33k!! Blinking hell, he is an accountant with a big company in the city but does he work for it...in for 8am does not leave until 645pm eats sandwiches at his desk...But does he get job satisfaction...NO!

He said if he won a billion quid, he would quit work!

I said I won a billion quid, I would carry on part time because I enjoy it!

There is the difference

[Mach E Avelli]

After 42 years and 24,000 hours in the game, I can honestly say that most times I still enjoy it once I am actually at work.
But how has it changed? Well, way back when, pilots were treated with plenty respect - first class deadhead travel, rosters published a month in advance etc. With pilot supply exceeding demand, it was hard to get a job, but once you got it, 500 stick hours a year was about the norm, with 10 days at home every month.
Now, even though there is a supposed shortage of pilots, all the 'respect' seems to have gone. Rosters are always subject to change on short notice, then they are run to maximum duty periods, minimum legal days at home. Deadhead always seems to be on the cheapest flight of the day, in the worst seat at the worst time. And of course the poxy, poxy security crap, which is enough to spoil anyone's day - if only because we all know it is nothing more than window dressing - it won't stop the real bad guys and isn't geared up to weed out suicidal pilots.
But, airline flying still beats driving a cab or working in a bank, so if you can deal with the above-described crap, go for it. Just don't admit to management that you actually like it, 'cos the buggers will take advantage somehow.

[parabellum]

What are the changes?

"I have been flying for 10 years now...." after I had been flying for ten years I had progressed through a whole bunch of light aircraft, including, eventually, Highland and Islands schedules, charter and Air Ambulance, (single crew, all weather, night and day), as well as air taxi around Europe before getting onto a light turbo prop with a major carrier, flying in support of the oil industry in the Middle East and, lucky me, got the biggest break of all after eleven years flying I got onto a jet in the RHS with no prospect of command for at least five and probably eight more years. I have never, ever, regretted a single minute of it.
I was never a 'specialist' as many of todays younger pilots have become, with little real flying experience but plenty of system management time.

As aircraft and their systems advance it remains to be seen just how relevant a broad based aviation background with single crew command experience in all weathers really is. Why would leaving Glasgow in the middle of a winter night to fly to Stornaway, in a BN2, (no wx radar), on your own, to pick up a very pregnant mum plus doctor and nurse and then fly them to Inverness and position back to GLA improve a young pilot? I like to think that kind of flying made me better able to handle situations like partial loss of tail plane control whilst descending into Shiraz in a BAC1-11, engine shut down mid Pacific and a few other attention getting scenarios because I had already been out there on a dark and stormy night and had to work my way through it.

Has the time come when aircraft are so automated that my kind of experience is now irrelevant?

[Shaka Zulu]

Are we talking ourselves out of a job and is it the 'pilot way' to let the other person come down to your own salary instead of self improving?

In a way we are our own worst enemy in the way we react to certain scenario's. We're meant to be rational thinkers but most of the time I see a group of whining children throwing toys out of the pram.

[oboema]

F/O @European legacy carrier(making profit)
@shorthaul fleet: the hardest working group within the company
max 750hrs/year(as per collective working agreement) actual~500-600hrs/year
being treated with respect (and treating the people around me accordingly)
min 12 days off per month (as per collective working agreement), actual 3-4 days home per week (winter)
Deadheading in business/first, good hotels, food, rest periods etc
good salary and benefits, excellent pension sceme (retirement at 56) and social security
strong union.

Did not hear any colleague complain when comparing current working environment with that of 20 yrs ago.

but for how long? especially when taking into account the current status of the world economy..


kind regards

[Mister Geezer]

In a way we are our own worst enemy in the way we react to certain scenario's. We're meant to be rational thinkers but most of the time I see a group of whining children throwing toys out of the pram.

Nah... as threads go on PPRuNe nowadays, this is a fairly mature and sensible discussion! :ok: There are a host of other issues that could drag this thread down to a schoolboy argument, however thankfully it is not at that stage yet!

[upsfr8rcaptain]

In the US for example it is rare to have a crew member live anywhere near they are based. Commuting and night stopping still plays a integral part in the daily lives of our friends in the US.


It isn't RARE to live at your domicile here in the US. Prior to 2001, there were plenty of empty cabin seats and jumpseats available for commuting to work. With US operators cutting back on excess capacity, the cockpit jumpseat availability is getting tighter, especially if you're trying to get an off-line jumpseat. Depending upon the domicile, I wouldn't be surprised if about 50% or more UPS pilots live within 100 miles of their domicile.

Now, I've been flying mostly international here at UPS:ok:, so obviously overnights are part of the game. When I go flying, it's unique compared to the US legacy carriers, because I leave SDF (Louisville, KY) and go to points beyond and don't return to my domicile for eight to 13 days. Of course that means only one or two reports per month, and that's exactly what I want. Most US legacy (passenger) carriers international pairing are usually there and back with a layover at the outstation, except for NWA (now Delta), when flying inter-Asia from the NRT hub.

UPS now has a pilot domicile in Anchorage. It's pretty junior for the MD11. Most of the trips are short, 3-4 days (example: ANC-PVG-ANC). Therefore you'd have several commutes per month, and it's a tough commute from the lower 48. Limited cabin seats, and with the FedEx domicile, lots of competition for the cockpit jumpseats. So many of our ANC pilots moved to that domicile.

With the hub/spoke system prevalent for most US pax and cargo carriers, it's routine for crews to overnight at the outstation to fly that first bank inbound to the hub (early morning for PAX, late evening for cargo). Here at UPS, we do have some line purity, so if you actually live in the outstation you could be home every day (and you're still on the clock!). That's a tough bet now since we change aircraft to cover lift requirements at the drop of a hat, but many guys do it.

Our UPS MD11s are now starting to fly SHORT domestic legs, overnighting at the outstation:
MEM-SDF-MEM Memphis-Louisville
STL-SDF-STL St. Louis
ORD-SDF-ORD Chicago

The FACT that this puts a cycle (with its maintenance requirements) on the MD isn't a concern, we need the lift. If we had to we'd put an A380 on the leg. I'm sticking with the long international leg to the hotel lifestyle.

PS. I moved to my domicile "temporarily" when I was a new hire over 18 years ago. Never moved!

[hunterboy]

One of the great things about the job is the ability to live far from your base. Long may it continue. There aren't many jobs that allow you to be based in the UK but live in Oz or NZ. (Or vice versa)

[Mach E Avelli]

Commuting within Oz or between Oz and NZ is now very difficult if you work for one of the local carriers. Here we have a 'standard industry exemption' to the CAO which governs flight and duty times, and surprise surprise, most operators have taken it on board.
All the rules require for time off is that you have a day with two consecutive 'local nights' free of duty in each week. A 'local night' is between 2300 and 0500 local. Bottom line is you are only guaranteed 36 hours free of duty each week, and it always seems that they manage to roster a late finish preceding the day off followed by an early start after the day off.
Some operators even require you to be in a position to report to more than one airport for duty - travelling at own expense. Examples would be Gold Coast or Brisbane in Qld, Avalon or Tullamarine in Vic. It really limits where it is practical to live. Fortunately it's a nice part of the world anyway. When on reserve, they expect you to be able to report within two hours of being called.
Recently I was approached by an airline recruiting agenct desperate for captains for a NZ base. As soon as I mentioned the c-word, I was told in no uncertain terms that it would not be allowed.

[vikena]

hunterboy

".... the ability to live far from your base"

??????

[hunterboy]

the ability to live far from your base

i.e A pilot may be based at Heathrow but live on the continent,or commute in from Scotland.I gather that we have some pilots and cc that commute from Oz to the UK to work.

[handflown]

Guys & gals,

It has been very interesting listening to the debates emerging. I personally feel that yes there were the "glory" days of flying T&C's but they were a very very long time ago. There are very few pilots left on that system. The truth is very few industries offer the same T&C's today as they did a few decades ago.

Times are changing. We are at a different age now where anyone, regardless of their profession can't reley on their company to look after them in their old age. You have to make your own arrangements to boost your company pension. I'm sure switched on chaps such as us can work that out.

Interestingly I work with allot of ex RAF guys whom expect an RAF pension, which isn't as lucrative as eg a BA pension however I do not here them winging as they have their own investments and fall backs that they have arranged privately.

Lets look at the facts to what the job is like today. Yes it isn't as well paid and easy going on hours as it was 30 years ago but it is now 2008!!!

I personally work for a shorthaul operator in the UK and I earn allot more than many of my piers from other professions. Also I have never worked a full week in my life. In a previous life I was used to long hours and hard work so this life is a doddle. In the winter I work 5 days a month!!! I earn a full salary for that (less flight pay granted) so I can not moan a bit.

I don't have a great pension like in the old days but I earn a good salary to boost other investments etc. I will retire happy and financially comfortable. In this day and age they will bever get rid of aircraft - are jobs long term are safe. The current troubles are not worse than in other industries, its just many pilots seem to not appreciate other area's of business.

Its is true if I one the lottery, I would still fly

[RAFAT]

It is true if I one the lottery, I would still fly

So would I, but only in my OWN aircraft, not as an employee!

If you want to get conditions and salary as great as it used to be many years ago in aviation, if you want to visit many cities in wonderful 5 star hotels, have much more than minimum rest, and fly less than 350 hours a year and have lots of free time at home, go and fly cargo.

The same can be said of bizjet flying.

[hunterboy]

Handflown....Ask those non whinging RAF guys if they would complain if the pension that they were promised and expecting was cut by a third? I'm sure the whinge quotient would rise. However, they have a gold plated pension guaranteed by the UK taxpayer.

[Hollywood316]

And so they bl**dy well should!

[I'm Off!]

Some would say that having risked their lives for this country for at least 16-22+years that is the least they deserve from the taxpayer.

[hunterboy]

I guess it is a matter of opinion. Are they more worthy than the other hundreds of thousands on goldplated tax funded pensions? I'm sure the office wallahs could justify their importance until the cows come home too.
However, the original question stands. How many of them would start complaining if the gold plated pension they were promised was suddenly reduced by a third " due to market conditions" and changes in longevity?
I would bet my pension most of them.That is the point I was trying to make, not as to whether they earned it or not. We all earn our pensions. Let 's not forget that a pension is deferred pay.

[JennyB]

And a servicemans "deferred pay" a lot more deferred than most

[L337]

30 Years in aviation, 21 years in BA, with 10 years longhaul. 747-100/200 and now 747-400.

One of the biggest changes is communication. When we left London 20 years ago, we were largely on our own. Airborne it was HF communications with London, and that was variable at best. Now with Satellite communication, and ACARS. Live monitoring of all aspects of the operation mean you are never alone.. It gives you unrivalled access to technical advice and information. Have an engine problem? Engineering can suck the real time data out the CMC, and tell you what they see. On the downside, all that information just muddies the water.

Once on the ground the Internet, Skype, and Mobile Phones mean you are always in contact with home. In the "olden days" once you left London, the wife struggled to communicate with you, and you with her.

Talking to home on the HF via Portishead was not a rewarding experience.

All good and bad, but mostly good.

[Capt Turbo]

A LOT!
In 1968 your chances of getting a Hawker Hunter was 1: 200 and the cost of a CPL equalled the price of 2 Jag E types ( with a 1:70 chance of an airline job), but .....if you made it all the way to the national carrier you had the choice among unlimited CAs ( with free samples), lucrative stationings abroad (pick any house back home for the taxfree allowances) or fly short haul with earliest DEP 0800 and back before dinner - and the prospect of the equivalent to a 2 million Euro pension fund at retirement age 55.
But...unless you flew the latest hardware you had to negotiate the Pond with wierd LR nav systems and ADFs, your handflying skills could make the difference between success and disaster, and early jet engines (not to speak of pistons) had a boring tendency to flame out, stall, explode or what else... and you were there all alone with no back up (and no interference).

AND NOT A LOT
There were still crises in 69,73,80,89,2001 and every time the entire industry (maybe except LH) was taken by total surprise only surpassed a few years later when the next upswing came and no pilots were to be found (because we had been fired and some found a real job in the meantime). The pay has always been governed by supply-demand and in the early jet days the demand wastly exceeded the few military jet-jocks available, hence the Prime Minister salaries. And ever since we complained that the good, old days were over...(and forgot when we had to sell everything to survive in the business)

BUT WHAT HAS CHANGED?
You are never lost, you rarely fly with a dead engine, few do flight planning/W+B/loading from scratch and you do not have to memorise exotic emergency checklists . Operation is a breeze today..
But...security can be a pain, slottimes can ruin your day, pax are flying at ungodly hours for no fees and the airline will only pay you a fraction of this no fee.

SO...as LEDERHOSEN pointed out spot on: We are many more today who can enjoy this line of work. But like in the IT-industry; when everybody can punch the right buttons the magic is gone and with it the big salaries.

And the big difference: Today they do not ground you at 55 or 60, so even as an old fart you can still pester the lives of the next generation aviators by almost true stories about the good, old days - and you will guaranteed have more cockpit time to do with! :E

[Kiltie]

Off thread perhaps but........Parabellum I suspect your kind of experience is not seen as irrelevant, but rather ignored these days with such immediate access to medium jets as a first career type than it was over a decade ago. My career path at the end of my first ten years has been almost an exact replica of your own. Even down to the night Stornoways single crew. I am a whole lot more comfortable flying with First Officers who have broad single crew & differing type experience. Sadly they account for only about one in ten. In general, their prioritising of tasks tends to have a more ass-saving structure.

If you can accept having the single-crew-invincible attitude kicked out of you in your first two crew job (as I did), the grounding for the future is invaluable in keeping the rectal muscles taut in nervous situations.

[Jox]

I started flying in 1985 and secured my first job in 1988.

I remember those first few years with great fondness, I learned a huge amount from the ' old sweats ' that appeared to just know what to do, when to do it and how to achieve what they knew they could. The crews were such fun particularly down route with everybody out and about together. There was no better job in my opinion and I was living the dream.

Move forward twenty years!

I know sit on the left rather than the right, I impress safety and procedure and hope that I can communicate that I know what to do, when to do it and how to achieve what I know I can achieve for all on board.

I am treated as a dinosaur by the kids now running the cabin and sitting next to me. Down route you can have as much fun as you can without drinking (a major difference from 20 years ago).

I still have the best job but it has changed as I have. Remember the earliest days when you were first flying for the airlines, it was the best time as everything was new and you had arrived.

Everybody moans, rosters, crewing, time off, leave but for those who have just achieved their long term goal with huge debts, it is utopia.

I work for the same airline I started with which I know is rare, fly different airplanes from the beloved DC9 that I started out with but such is the ravage of time. I did not come from the joystick FBW generation but have experienced no issues converting to it. We fly nearer the annual limit than we did when I started but I still enjoy what I do, it has given my family a good living and I still like getting out of bed to go to work.

Has the life of an airline pilot really changed - we have computerised assistance making things easier, the systems are better developed, I believe the new guys are no better than I was when I started but much more computer savvy.

Oh and the main difference, I now drive an Audi A5 rather than a Vauxhall Chevette. Would I work in an office, no - NEVER. Let the sky embrace me and allow me to wonder at the last 20 years, thank you for my life, long may it continue.

:ok:

[wingbar]

Jox Thank you for your post.

I was very moved by it. I'm in the position you were in 20 years ago, (the new F/o.) I love my job very much and I wouldn't change anything about it. It's special. - We just have to ignore the idiots who are not special enough to deserve it. I have some excellent Captains who teach all of us so much. I dare say they are of your ilk.

Regards

WB

Bmir F/O

[B767PL]

Pay has deteriorated.

T&Cs have deteriorated.

Self sponsored type-ratings are the norm.

Too many pilots, too little jobs.

Regulations have increased, thus increasing your chances of screwing up and getting your certificate pulled.

Respect for your position, as well as for you as a professional has been reduced.

Aircraft are more automated, but this also now makes you the flight engineer.






For all the Euro guys, please do not let things deteriorate over there, to the point they have in the U.S... lower then rock bottom.

[Scouser1]

Portishead- I remember talking via HF from the Maternity unit to my better half en route somewhere distant just minutes after I'd given birth!! Wife of a longhaul pilot?Get used to spending time alone/giving birth alone etc etc..

[NOT ORANGE]

I think with an unfunded public sector pension liability of 1trillion pounds and the government borrowing from China, Japan etc who will pull the rug at some point,everyone in the UK will have an equally rosy retirement to look forward to!

[swish266]

(It was a fold-out from AW&ST) I saw a documentary about the life of an Airline Captain in America:
This guy was standing in front of a huge house on a lake, with a boat garage and about half a dozen cars (Merc included) parked in front. He also spoke of his other toy plane... After having put 3 kids through Uni...
15 years latter the highest earners in America (US Air) were taking home 180k on the average.
In 2008 I will earn altogether 110k EUR
I can kill when I go through security at LHR:}
I had a green hydr fail over the desert last week. Spoke via satphone to Engineering, got some chat via ACARS. Tough shivvv...
14000h
9000PIC (7000 on B767)
Currently Big Bus Driver.
Do your Maths...
:\:\:\

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

I'm surprised at how many people are flying around 900hrs a year.

I work for a UK operator and never fly more than 550 hours a year and have a final salary pension. I expect there are many thousands of other U.K. based pilots in the same situation or better as me.

The salaries certainly haven't 'kept up' since the 70s or 80s. I think pay wise UK pilots in the '80s used to compare their salaries to GPs or even consultants.

I expect the general technology available to us makes a big difference. I can video chat to my kids when abroad or use skype etc. That must make things better than in the '70s.

The kit we operate must be easier to get along with. Tracking airways with just VORs and a basic autopilot must be much harder than todays LNAV VNAV flying.

[Mr. Hat]

I fly with a guy that had the good ol' days. When I ask hin about them first he laughs shaking his head then looking out the window. He tells me in intricate detail of the service - the meals and the respect. By the end of the conversation he's eyes are a bit glassy.

Stange though respect is free.

Lets face it its better than working 5 days a week but the gap is closing and there will come a time where it just won't be worth it anymore.

[JJflyer]

A lot.

My Father had a 33 year carreer with a single good airline up in the north. Good service onboard, ID tickets, good salary, good conditions and has a nice pention. He retired in 1987 at age 53, a year and a half before he had to. 23000 hours total including military and other flying for 37 years average if 621h a year.

Long haul for the last years I've just recently gone to short haul with a different company. 900h a year every year to the minute since 2002 with maximun duty times as well. I get paid peanuts and bananas. They treat me like a mushroom (Keep me in dark and feed me with s.hit). I can buy water and coffee onboard our flights and pay for tickets home from base and accomodation there. Companies offer no pention, no retirement. My salary has been in a constant decline since I started flying. I make less as a TRI/Captain today than I made as an S/O in the 90's.

Still when the door closes I like the flying part. I like to see the sunrise over the Atlantic going Eastbound as the flight is coming to and end and bed is closer. I like the many cities around the world with my favourite hangouts and places to go and things to do. I hate the beancounter management types and the b.astards that ruined the industry with pay for training, paying for uniforms and water and flying for food. I dislike not getting paid a full salary during training, living in garbage hotels and having 24h travel times to bases with trains, planes and automobiles all combined so that the company can save a few bob. The MOL's, Wolfes etc that have destroyed a good job and made it akin to driving a dumpster truck with salaries not all that far to follow.

I am happy that I saw the golden days with my father and I am equally happy that he has his memories from those times. Indeed he is surprised when I tell some of the stories to him on how things are today.

[FAStoat]

Apart from the salaries ,FTLs,No longer final salary pensions,no crew meals,poor quality hotels,what else that has been discussed that I have missed????THE FLYING PART.I have thought of nothing but flying since I could read and write!My parents set up a farm in Kenya after the War,so I was brought up by my mothers Brothers Family.My Uncle Bert,was left out on a limb by my family,as he had "shirked the War".Yet he had an enormous amount of flying anecdotes and took me in a Proctor for my first flight in 1949 at White Waltham!!So what on eath was my family telling me about him.They all were dreadfully envious of him,as it happened.They had run an established family engineering business since 1910,and were adjudged to be "Reserved Occupation".My Uncle was not carrying the main family name,so was sidelined in the Company.In 1942,he joined the Empire Flying Training course in Canada and the US ,having enlisted in the RN,Air Branch.So he shirked the War,by not staying with the rest of them at home,but had gone to away and left the family to do his own thing and FLY for his country.He ended up in the Pacific,and instead of coming back home in 45,he was stuck repatriating POWs from India and Australasia until 47.When he did come back there were no jobs,certainly no flying jobs,so he was told he could only get a job working again for the family company,but in a reduced position!!His family ended up looking after my sister and myself,although we were all sent to boarding school at an early age.He took me to Farnborough every year until his untimely death,and introduced me to the Fairey Test Pilots Office and staff at White Waltham,because he knew them all,and was having an affair with peter Twiss's Secretary!!.Thus was started my lust for flying.I ended up with over 42 years of it,but having strugglled to get a Civilian licence in the late 70s with an Avigation Course on ERT-My wife telling me "I thought you were a Pilot,so wheres the job?"I only got the Licence by going to Oxford..To get a job,I had to go to Nigeria,and that was pot luck,as I knew the Deputy Chief Test Pilot from DeHavilland,and he got me a course and an intro into Exec Flying.As I had been a reaonable "Handling "Pilot,I thoroughly enjoyed the flying.I got an early command and in the 80s Airlines were recruiting,so I joined a superb Airline as Captain on a Turboprop.No Autopilt,Prop Synch,Cold cockpits,ADFs that had pencil marks to get the strongest frequency reception,and Training Captains that encouraged you to make the most money you could for the Company!There was an actual buzz to recover delays left over from previous crews.As Captain of your Aeroplane,Like a Ships Captain,you made the decisions,and could tell the Ground Handling and Refuellers exactly what the score was if they were causing totally uneccessary delays.Very little PC in those days,and the flying was superb!A typical approach into Guernsey,was to report IMC the North West tip of the Island,on Radar, descending to 1500 ft and request left base join to the ILS 5 Miles at 220 kts.We could land and disembark our 52 pax,before the BM or BA had made the marker from their 20 mile finals approach.When we got the Jets,this continued,until suddenly things changed,and new young bloods from the Big Airlines,arrived to get commands when they were still ten years away where they had come from.The ideas from the big Airlines arrived and PROFILES were to be the norm.The standard of our Crews was excellent,and anyone on line could fly to the standard set down by the bosses-All pilots themselves!The standard then was dropped to be able to cope with abinitio Airline Pilots with frozen ATPLs.These guys,not their fault,could not be expected to fly outside the tramlines,as laid down,as they could and would get into trouble without the experience to get themselves out of it-Their Captains were now the young bloods,but lacking years of experience.Going into Amsterdam for example,our Airline had "Bullet Crews"There used to be layers of Aircraft stacked at "Sugal",and as we were doingshuttle flights,the delays would snowball.Crews were encouraged to think on their feet.If the main runway was 19,we did an ILS to 27 and broke left on short final visual to land on 24,which had no aids.The Alpha and Bravo stands were dead ahead,so we more than made up times,and ATC actual asked if you could accept a " Bullet crew approach",meaning the break off for 24.Things began to change rapidly,and as we got more Jets,then more and more came from the main Airline as direct entry Captains with the same ideas-Standardisation on Profiles-"so help you GOD"!!No longer were the flights the same,and new first officers were actually asking why some of us were departing from the Profile to get the job done,when all we had to do was to claim the delay was an ATC problem.After trying to explain the delay snowball effecting to subsequent crews,the matter did not stop there,but went to the new Fleet Manager-A young blood.There is nothing wrong in standardisation,if the Beancounters,who are now running the Airline as the Pilot Management has retired or removed,are aware that now some delay problems can not be resolved and future delays to schedules are unavoidable.The old guys got pissed off,as the first excuse for a delay was taken with both hands by crews,and further delays would be inevitable,so why bother to be concerned about it??No one now seemed to think that PROFITS had to be made to keep you flying??Beancounters do though,and they continue to try by reducing the things that make flying tolerable under modern conditions-the Perks have been eroded to nothing!!You cant take the fuel you wanted!You have to go by the route given you,even if the have the Cockpit shattered by Hail and the leading edge drilled by a machine gun of hail stones.Things have really changed,but that is called progress.A very smart computer games kid will do a much better job than I could , flying his computer driven office from A-B without ever getting out of his locked in working environment.He will not be able to release his stresses as we could,and his socalled Flying Skills will have to be left to a little private aeroplane than he can hardly afford,to do proper flying.I am glad I am out of it,I am afraid, and I reckon I was 5 years too late in joining the Commercial Flying World.Those before me,enjoyed almost all their time,when Glamour was Glamour,and to be a Pilot was a respected profession.

[bfisk]

Don't know how things were in the past, but I got my first commercial job a couple of months back.

I already have the complete roster for all of 2009 (will have christmas off!), with 143 days schedule (that's a lot of time off!). PCs and medical not included on this but that will only add up to max another few days...

TR paid by company, pay during training, expecting to gross about €50-60k next year.

Good work environment, nice colleagues, expecting to fly about 300-400 hours pr year, or so.


At 22 and on dead bottom of the seniority list, I'm not complaining :--)

[powerstall]

...... putting it in 2 words.... getting worse. :(

[FAStoat]

I wish every success to those now thinking of embarking on an Aviation career.