RAF Lightning versus Mirage III DACT

[ARXW]

Hello all!

Had a discussion the other day with some know-all friend of mine and he insisted that the Mirage III was a pure dogfighter whereas the Lightning was an interceptor and that the Lightning up close and personal didn't stand much chance of winning a fight against the delta french jet blah blah... which is nonsense of course.

I know the Mirage weighted at about 10-11 tons against 18.2t for the F.6 Lightning and about 16.8t for the F.3. The Mirage's SNECMA Atar pumped out only 6.2 tons of thrust to the Lightning's (F.3/6 doesn't matter) 14.9tons of thrust. So thrust to weight was decidedly in the Lightning's favour as was acceleration at all altitudes/configurations initial states, the Lightning presumably played the vertical quite significantly better and probably would have had a sustained turn advantage. According to wing areas the lightning had 80-85psf wing loading versus the Mirage's 60psf (at best) wing loading). Armament was similar guns-wise, slightly in favor of the Lightning in terms of missiles (especially if RT were carried) and it had a slightly better radar (ie, it had a radar that could actually help at the earlier stages of the fight in particular, whereas the Mirage III's radar by many accounts was as useful as ballast).

Just wanted to hear from anyone in the know, hopefully, particularly if he ever did engage Mirage 3s (say French AF IIIC or IIIE or Ozzie IIIOs). Coming to think of it didn't the Binbrook Lightnings play with the RAF Harrier force that was to be sent to the Falklands in order to train the mud movers to beat an Argie Mirage III? IF I recall Gordon Moulds' book on the Lightning pilots I think the Lightning actually played the Argie Mirage simulator by flying without reheat, which I guess speaks volumes in turns of the relative energy states that were available to both aircraft at the start of fight.

[safetypee]

I participated in a ‘non normal’ flight-experience exchange involving the Lightning and Mirage. This provided ‘minimum supervision’ flights in the Mirage 3B in return for hosting similar flights in a Lightning T5.
After a flight involving single engine ops (low level PIs and ccts) I recall the French pilot asking why the Lightning needed two engines!

Both types were good interceptors, but both had limitations in tight maneuvering combat – Lightning high wing loading, Mirage high induced drag.
Any argument over the differences between a dog fight vs interceptor might come down to the range capabilities of the radar and missiles (rules of engagement); I suspect that the Lightning would win on range - interceptor, but concede to the Mirage in a gun fight.

The Mirage was subsequently developed as a multi-role aircraft; politics, and being prepared to accept a performance loss with a stores load. The UK had (or wished to develop) other types for the low level role, thus did not expand the Lightning’s capabilities until the Middle East market was opened up. Interestingly this was preceded by the Venezuelans who flew the T5 in comparison with the Mirage. Their pilot was impressed by the Lightning’s performance, but politically the requirement was for a multi-role aircraft.
For me, the Mirage was a fun aircraft to fly; the Lightning was a great aircraft to operate (which includes fun flying). The Lightning would have provided formidable defense in the classic cold war scenario, the Mirage more suited to the modern day ‘skirmishes’, thus it might be said that the Mirage had greater design (development) foresight than the Lightning, but that’s an issue for the air-staff … and politics, not the aircraft.

[XV277]

Only one type was completely buggered in the event of an engine failure!! ;)

[tiger19]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/RAAF_Mirage_III_1.JPEG/800px-

[Ali Barber]

We used to hold regular DACT night-stop exercises with the French Mirages, alternating between home and away games. The Mirage was good for the initial turn but bled energy quickly. It wasn't a good idea if you tried to stay and turn, so use of the vertical and keeping your energy up was the way to go. Remember one particular 2v2 against the Creil based Mirages, overhead Paris itself. Can't remember exactly what the base height was, but it was somewhere around FL250. I ended up in a spin and recall it being a bit surreal spinning over the capital of France!

[Jaysi]

Participated in Mirage DACT against III and F1 variants. Their missiles were generally better than ours in terms of range and aspect but I recall our radars were comparable (they had a very low cross section). They liked a high fight but underestimated our ability to match them at altitude.

The Lightning was in fact quite a good turning aircraft and in the right hands could straightforwardly better the likes of the Mirage, F4 and Tornado F3 in a guns environment. There were even techniques to "hold off" the next generation fighters, F16 etc by dragging them to the vertical and getting them on their Alpha limit (the lightning had no such limit and was controllable at stupidly slow speeds) but inevitably it didn't last long.

Another factor was that towards the end of the Lightning most of the pilots were very experienced (not me) and had learned many tricks along the way. An example comes to mind when very early on during a detachment to an F15 squadron at Soesterberg, in a 4 v 4 we shot all their aircraft down without loss on 2 splits having executed all sorts of exotic pre-merge manoeuvres to confuse their "picture". They were very embarrassed and one of their old sages took the squadron aside and explained the sorts of unconventional tactics we had used...we never got close to them again after that!

[Edmund Spencer]

Some quite good YouTube footage (simulated) on Israeli Mirage III's versus Egyptian Mig 21's.

https://youtu.be/sFO-jQ1Iutk

ES

[ARXW]

It is a bit hard to get one's facts straight from freely available internet sources but from what I could figure out the Mirage could not possibly have a higher T/W ratio than 0.78 and that's with a 5.3tons empty weight. I think that weight is wrong though and the Mirage IIIE weight of 7tons+2.35t for fuel+weapons=9.5tons at least which gives the most numerous Mirage 3 version a T/W ratio of 0.65 compared to the absolute minimum 0.78 for an F6 Lightning at its max take off weight. I think that the F6 had nearer 0.82 t/w on take off with the F3 having approximately 0.88 (not bad considering the Mirage 2000 - two (or 1.5 rather) generations down from the Mirage 3 has a T/W of 0.88!). So the Lightning had a hands down energy advantage. But as the Lightning pilots have stated already it came down to tactics and individual skill as well as playing to one's advantages.

In terms of missiles the Mirage may have had an advantage after the end of the '70's with the introduction of the R550 Magic I...

OMG Mr Edmund Spencer is here! The one of "La muerta negra" fame?:ok:
You, sir, might appreciate the above comment on the Magic. It was Lt Martin Hale from 800 during the Falklands that got locked up by a Dagger head-on and had to break downwards in a deep dive to get away from it IIRC. Always found it a bit ironic that the people talked about the AIM-9L during the Falklands and lamented its all aspect capability when to my knowledge no Argie fighter got locked up head on (even though Steve Thomas tried on 1 May) with the only front aspect lockup and valid shot having come from the Argentinian side with the above mentioned shot!

Jaysi - 4v4 against F15s and shooting em all up? That's unheard of! Well done!:ok: Not even the SHAR boys would claim something like that (well I guess they may have). Btw you wouldn't have been a Fg Off towards the end of the Lightning era photographed by Ian Black in a blue greyish Lightning with your name on it would you? I think I have you on VHS on some Binbrook Lightning tape, going on record that you are delighted not to be going to the Tornado but rather to the Hawk at the TWU!:)

[Edmund Spencer]

And thereby hangs a tale!
Humblest apologies if this introduces thread creep but it probably needs to be told.
Tony Penfold and Martin Hale were vectored against what they thought were two Mirage III's armed with Magic and Matra. Turns out it was a single Mirage V (Dagger) flown by Lieutenant Jose Ardiles armed with only heat seeking Shafrirs.
As far as I am aware this missile did not have much of an all aspect capability so it is mysterious as to what tracked Martin head on to begin with. I most certainly do not want to question Martin's account but it would not be the first time that drop tanks have been mistaken as missiles.
According to the Argentinean pilots they had no radar in the Mirage V so they could not have given guidance to a semi-active Magic anyway.
ES

[Bushfiva]

YouTube footage

Unfortunately, that particular clip stops a few seconds too soon, presumably because the uploader is Egyptian. In the longer clip, the MiG continues to point vertically up, is out of energy, and provides an easy gun kill to the pilot who was narrating the clip.

[Edmund Spencer]

To the best of my knowledge it came from a series of documentaries called "Dog Fight - Desert Aces" or something similar from the History Channel.
(All rippingly good stuff!)
If you spend a few minutes searching you can find several fights involving Mirage III vs various Middle Eastern opponents. There is a particularly good one about a Mirage III against a Jordanian Hunter. This ends in a slow speed scissors which it looks like the Hunter should have won. According to the Israeli pilot the Hunter pilot bottled out a fraction early and ended up being splashed after an epic low level chase over the desert floor.
YouTube - Doghfights - Desert Aces (1 of 5) (http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2M7ceCD14&feature=related)
ES

[ARXW]

Since the Dogfights series came up try this:
2nd half of:
YouTube - Dogfights - MiG Killers of USS Midway (3 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQHabpfKySc&feature=related)
and 1st half of this:
YouTube - Dogfights - MiG Killers of USS Midway (4 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJuaaQBz_yk)
:eek:
double Mig kill by LtCdr Mugs McKeown (he went straight for the Topgun CO slot after this...)

Edmund,
Strange this, about the Magic IR missile front aspect lockup. I do remember reading somewhere (might actually have been Mr Mogwi:ok: whom I've annoyed in the past with such things !) that Martin Hale actually had an RWR indication hence the dive/release of chaff (which is odd if it was an IR missile that we are talking about). Unless of course he got 'painted' by the radar only without a lock and then observed a fuel tank jettisoning and thought he was being fired at, who knows! Moggy wrote that Hale had to dive several thousand feet to (apparently) break the lock?

[BentStick]

Reminds me of a drinking session with two ex Mirage drivers where they described one of their more frightening 1v1s. The defender entered a rolling vertical scissors with an energy disadvantage and ended up stalling, called knock it off only to find that his attacker (with the energy advantage) having seen his opponents aspect change pulled too hard and lost control as well. Result – defender spinning down, attacker spinning up – in the same piece of sky. :ooh:

[Edmund Spencer]

ARXW.
Concur.
I have sent off a few questions to my Argentinean sources regarding this one. Perhaps someone over there can remember the radio conversations at the time and what Ardiles may have said before he got splashed by Tony Penfold.
From memory, Tony initially thought there were two (possibly four) bogies out there to begin with and communicated this to Martin. 'Intelligence suggested' at the time we were up against the Mirage III's armed with Magic and Matra so it was a very reasonable assumption for Martin to make.
There is no doubt, however, that Ardiles was on his own in a Mirage V with no radar guided missiles (or radar).
Using a monumental amount of conjecture I suppose it is possible Martin saw the tank release from Ardiles and thought it was a missile release. He turns his climb into a vertical dive and thereby presents Ardiles with a rear hemisphere shot. Ardiles manouevres for the shot and fires and in doing so gets shot by Tony.
Sounds like the picture was pretty confused. (As usual) The conspiracy theorists could have a field day, could they not? Tony had the only other air to air radar in the area that could have locked Martin.
ES

[ARXW]

Edmund,
Since this has diverged from the original theme of the topic so I've created this thread to continue on:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/349120-shar-adventures.html

Was tempted to call it 'The incredible adventures of Edmund Spencer' but on reflection I thought I'd generalise it a little bit!

[gundam123dx]

Jaysi;

In the Mirage DACT which kind of missiles did your Lightnings use, Firestreak or Red Top? You said that "their missiles were generally better than ours in terms of range and aspect". But according to the National Archives documents I found about Red Top, its IR seeker once locked onto a reheated F-4K at a distance of 13 miles and a relatively closer Buccaneer. Both were locked from the front. And Mirages' R550 Magic do not have all-aspect capability. So I wondered if your Lightnings used Firestreak at that time? Or the Mirage alreadly used Magic II instead of R550 Magic? When was the Mirage DACT?
Thanks in advance.[/left]

[geo10]

^ Haven't got a clue mate, but you probably get the thread resurrection award of the month :)

[newt]

So much bull! It’s not just the aircraft and it’s radar and weapons......it’s the guy in the cockpit who wins or looses the day! DACT is exciting and rewarding flying! In the Lightning force we had some of the best! Retired to the bunker with a glass of vino!��

[jindabyne]

Then I take it you must've lost most of the time :eek:

[ex-fast-jets]

I think most Lightning pilots did!

[jindabyne]

We'll be flamed Bomber! But he'll probably still be juiced ;)

[newt]

“CHECK SIX”........both of you!!

[jindabyne]

Tails clear Bomber - another Lightning kill :p

[newt]

So his tail is clear in the hover after his fifteen minute sortie..... could not write the book!

[Dark Thunder]

Are you guys real? This is supposed to be a serious discussion! All this Service banter is hardly appropriate!! The Lightning was a wonderful aircraft! My father flew it!

[Petrolhead]

I remember that first day at Soesterberg against the F15 very well Jaysi. I remember standing outside the crewroom while waiting for permission to enter as no one was ready for us even though it was a planned exchange, and hearing someone say " what are the cousins here for?" and the reply was " they are here to see how we do it!". Then they all died.

We had planned for weeks what we were going to do ( day one of a war is always a surprise) and we knew their capabilities whereas they did nor realize we could out climb them - and we cheated a bit ;) My tactic was not to turn back in for the merge but to continue outbound and do a 180 knot climb and loop to way over the top then come down from the vertical as they flew through. They were very good though, in that they always came out of re-heat at 10,000 feet but I kept forgetting to look at the altimeter :) I remember the night trip into Amsterdam as well ;)

Back to the thread: I did 7 (35 minute) DACT trips in the F6 against the F1 at Reims in August 87 and agree that the Lightning should have been able to deal with the Mirage in any situation, but like the Hawk it's small frontal area meant it could get in close before you saw it even if you got a 15 mile pick up on radar. I don't have much written in my logbook about kills, etc, but I still remember one hard fight where I just got him before I had to Joker out. We went back together and shut down at the same time. I clambered down, sweating like a pig in the heat and from the 3kw of heating from the electrics in the Lightning cockpit ( I seem to remember being in an immersion-suit but not sure why in August). The aircraft did the same - it radiated heat, it smelt, it leaked fuel all over the pan, the engines clattered, it had a heat-haze all around it and if it would have panted it could have.

Alongside me the canopy of the F1 opened and out stepped an immaculately smart, cool pilot from his air conditioned cockpit, not a hair out of place. He came over to me after I had struggled down past the re-fueling probe and shook my (sweaty) hand. Then the expression on his face changed and his jaw dropped open as his head tilted up taking in the wall of angry aircraft behind me that towered over his F1. In a hushed voice he said "C'est l'avion pour l'homme n'est pas?"

[57mm]

:ok: Petrolhead

[jindabyne]

D Thunder
With just one post under your belt - you will learn!!
Aah, but I've just seen your 'bio' - a winder-upper!
Your father probably knows newt well, and quite possibly myself and Bomber - and no doubt will have a serious discussion with you.

[Dark Thunder]

Yes Jindabyne he knew Newt well! Not sure about you two but he flew single seaters all his career! Now can we get back to the thread? Oh and my Dad will be speaking to Newt today!

[newt]

Thanks for your support Dark Thunder! It should not be forgotten that the F2 and F2a retained two Aden cannons so was very capable of close dog fighting especially at low level. The F6 was retro fitted with canon but I did not operate it in that fit but understand it too had improved capability!

[Jaysi]

It is a bit hard to get one's facts straight from freely available internet sources but from what I could figure out the Mirage could not possibly have a higher T/W ratio than 0.78 and that's with a 5.3tons empty weight. I think that weight is wrong though and the Mirage IIIE weight of 7tons+2.35t for fuel+weapons=9.5tons at least which gives the most numerous Mirage 3 version a T/W ratio of 0.65 compared to the absolute minimum 0.78 for an F6 Lightning at its max take off weight. I think that the F6 had nearer 0.82 t/w on take off with the F3 having approximately 0.88 (not bad considering the Mirage 2000 - two (or 1.5 rather) generations down from the Mirage 3 has a T/W of 0.88!). So the Lightning had a hands down energy advantage. But as the Lightning pilots have stated already it came down to tactics and individual skill as well as playing to one's advantages.

In terms of missiles the Mirage may have had an advantage after the end of the '70's with the introduction of the R550 Magic I...

OMG Mr Edmund Spencer is here! The one of "La muerta negra" fame?:ok:
You, sir, might appreciate the above comment on the Magic. It was Lt Martin Hale from 800 during the Falklands that got locked up by a Dagger head-on and had to break downwards in a deep dive to get away from it IIRC. Always found it a bit ironic that the people talked about the AIM-9L during the Falklands and lamented its all aspect capability when to my knowledge no Argie fighter got locked up head on (even though Steve Thomas tried on 1 May) with the only front aspect lockup and valid shot having come from the Argentinian side with the above mentioned shot!

Jaysi - 4v4 against F15s and shooting em all up? That's unheard of! Well done!:ok: Not even the SHAR boys would claim something like that (well I guess they may have). Btw you wouldn't have been a Fg Off towards the end of the Lightning era photographed by Ian Black in a blue greyish Lightning with your name on it would you? I think I have you on VHS on some Binbrook Lightning tape, going on record that you are delighted not to be going to the Tornado but rather to the Hawk at the TWU!:)

I did go to the TWU at Brawdy and loved it. Later on did a tour on the F3 as a Flight Commander...never a jet I much admired...

[Jaysi]

Hmm...so many questions from the deep and distant past. I don't recall what load the Mirages were carrying just that their missiles were shinier and undoubtedly more reliable in practice than ours. Both my live-fire Redtops performed some sort of exotic air display off the rail then unceremoniously plummeted into Cardigan Bay. As for the Redtop's head on capability, when you mention a 13-mile "acquisition" by the seeker head I very much doubt it but I'll wait to be reprimanded by an IWI. As I recall our head on Redtop attack profiles were about us going very supersonic against a high-flying target which was also going very fast and creating enough heat to enable the Redtop to fuse and detonate in time as it inevitably passed by whistling a tune. Whilst the uncomplicated Firestreak was more straighforward...see target heat source (at its rear), go to heat source, go bang! Never in all my DACT sorties was any kind of head-on engagement planned...always sneak up behind them...almost everyone else had a legitimate head-on capability whilst we didn't. It's why in the final years the two Lightning Squadrons became a glorified close-in dog fight training resource, no more.

[Petrolhead]

Yes it was "dial a mig" in the last few years, anything passing Binbrook wanted to be bounced and we felt we had to oblige :-)

I remember getting a visual on a Buccaneer coming down the North Sea at 600+ at 15 miles because he was making a wake. Gunning him with the guns pointing slightly up was fun!