Crossair overrun in Zurich?

[FFPax]

Was there a Crossair a/c overruning the runway in Zurich tonight? 86 pax... Which plane, any hurt?

Is it purely bad luck they have had for a while?

[Brenoch]

It was in Sarajevo, from Zurich though..
Avro of some sort. All passengers escaping injury..

[mvand003]

I think you already heard that a BAe146 overrun the runway here at Sarajevo. A look this morning showed that it is HB-IXH - as far as I have seen in the old CrossAir colours. It overrun the runway for about 200 m and came to rest about 20 m before the localizer and 30 m before the airport fence. During the time of the incident it was heavy snowfall. There can't be very much damage to the aircraft as on the east side of the runway are no landing lights. The aircraft 'just' stuck in the mud.

Hope this helps, merry christmas and happy landings you all.

[Hold at Saffa]

What IS your problem, exactly.
100 aircraft, 1000 pilots operating high density, European short-haul winter operations with nearly 600 flights per day!

No mention from you of facilities, ATC or infrastructure at Sarajevo, I notice, nor of the weather conditions facing the crew on arrival.

[quote]that there were (in my opinion) definite pointers to the fact that Crossair's second big incident was not far off. <hr></blockquote>

Rather than the constant chorus of "I told you so" of which you are so clearly fond, why not share your stunning insights with the rest of us?

I, for one, find it appalling that you see fit to attack an outstanding operator based on conjecture and unsubstantiated blustering. If you tried it without the protective veil of anonymity, the courts would have something to say about your "opinions".

Put up, or shut up.

[Rusty A300]

Hey SAFFA dude,

You weren't perhaps fired from BAe sometime ago were you? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Saab 2000 Driver]

According to the media the reported Braking Action was medium to good, but it turned out to be far less then that.

Why immediately blame the pilots or Crossair ?

BTW Bogey, what airline do YOU fly for ?

Happy New Year !

[Stagnation Point]

Saffa

The world average for fatal accidents runs at about 1 per 1 million flying hours. If Crossair have 100 acft each flying on average 2000hr per year = 200,000 hours. Haven't they just had two fatal accidents within the last 12 months.

It would tend to point to something amiss, whether thats a management problem or some other problem, but it needs to be looked at.

[Bonaero]

For months after the Crossair Saab crash, SF1 and SF2 (the local TV) were pumping out anti-foriegn-pilot stories. What happened this time?

[atr42]

Perhaps the pilot who overrun in Sarajevo made a private flight !! INCREDIBLE !!! However this is the only argument that Crossair's spokesman gave to the newspaper "le Temps" which asked about the incident of 1999 (the pilot who mistook Aosta and Sion). Notice : There was passengers on board who paid their ticket.

[quote] Le pilote du vol LX3597 qui s'est écrasé près de Kloten avait failli confondre en 1999 l'aéroport d'Aoste avec celui de Sion. Comment Crossair a-t-elle pu ignorer une telle erreur pendant deux ans ?
Il faisait un vol privé sur son temps libre, même s'il utilisait un avion et les infrastructures de la compagnie, et volait à vue dans un espace aérien non contrôlé. [...]
<hr></blockquote>

All people should know that some Crossair pilots worked for the BEAA (the swiss NTSB) until last year. Apparently it was not a problem for the Swiss authorities.....

I will take a Crossair flight to Berlin on Sunday and I hoped the weather will be CAVOK and that the crew will perform a standard ILS approach in Berlin.

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: atr42 ]</p>

[126.9]

Is that Saffa or Tossa?

[quote]Put up, or shut up.

<hr></blockquote> Given the reputation of airlines like China Airlines and Crossair; I believe it's already been put up!

[Ignition Override]

During the last several winters in the US, we have had planes either slide off the end of the runway or merely find out that after slowly getting on the brakes, a long section of the runway has NIL braking action.

Some airports either throw out sand and forget to use chemicals, or lie about it. One airport manager went to meet with a Captain, whose twin-engine jet stopped mostly with the help of reversers. The management "type" produced a stack of papers, which indicated that the runways had been properly treated. This might have made them look good in the eyes of the FAA: reality often counts for nothing, when compared against proper documents. The only reason that the plane stayed on the runway was that there was no crosswind. The Captain probably had 13,000+ flight hours. This was at a small airport in Michigan , not very long ago.

At Traverse City (TVC), MI, a different airport, the Captain's info indicated that braking was at least fair, and his jet slid off at the end, with no damage to the plane. It has a really short runway. Fortunately, no one criticized the Captain's decision, because he or the FO asked Traverse ATC the right questions, and received responses which were not at all accurate, as happened to the other guy in either Lansing (LAN) or Kalamazoo (AZO).

One problem with tail-mounted engines on a slippery runway and/or with a strong crosswind, is that with full reverse thrust, the rudder can lose most of its steering effectiveness, requiring both reversers to be stowed, then re-extended if braking is nil or almost nil!

Don't trust turboprop braking reports-many use props in "ground idle" and therefore require almost no brakes to stop. The runway turnoff is often forgotten by ground crews and can be very slippery!

[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Thanks for those words of wisdom Ignition Override ! Ofcourse the ARJ has a serious design flaw on slippery runways; 5 APU´s but no reverse. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

According to Swiss and German media the pilot wanted to divert to Split, but was convinced by ATC that BA was medium to good and therefore attempted the landing.

[quote] Perhaps the pilot who overrun in Sarajevo made a private flight !! INCREDIBLE !!! <hr></blockquote> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[quote]However this is the only argument that Crossair's spokesman gave to the newspaper "le Temps" which asked about the incident of 1999 (the pilot who mistook Aosta and Sion). <hr></blockquote> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

What ARE you on ATR driver ? Too much Champagne already ? It´s not even New Year´s eve yet !You´re confusing two entirely different things here ! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[quote] I will take a Crossair flight to Berlin on Sunday and I hoped the weather will be CAVOK and that the crew will perform a standard ILS approach in Berlin. <hr></blockquote> Then take another airline you HYPOCRITE ! It´s a free world. It says a lot about your character, critizising others, but not having the stomach to make any real descisions on your own. Coward ! <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0">

[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]</p>

[126.9]

It has to be noted that the Crossair pilots reaction to any form of criticism here on PPRuNe is usually less than civilised. The likes of your postings Saab 2000 Driver and Hold at Saffa doesn't say anything for the professionalism of the model Crossair pilot. You guys would be well served remembering: 1.No answer is also an answer, 2.Your colleagues are being judged here by your input, 3.Your company is in the spotlight worldwide at present and your shouting (and little red faces) is not bettering thier case, and finally, go back and read some of your past posts here on PPRuNe: I'm sure they'll disgust even yourselves.

Now grow up and get on with it! (he said with a smile) <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Robert Vesco]

[quote] The likes of your postings Saab 2000 Driver and Hold at Saffa doesn't say anything for the professionalism of the model Crossair pilot. <hr></blockquote> I´m glad that you (B747 Classic pilot according to profile) are sooooo professional that you can immediately jump to conclussions, simply to bash an airline. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Grow up yourself.

[Robert Vesco]

BTW, I did a little background check on yourself and it seems that you have a special intrest in Crossair/Swissair/Switzerland topics. Not carrying a grudge now, are you ? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Now, go upstairs to your room and play with your flight simulator ! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Safe landings in 2002 (and also thereafter ofcourse) to everybody !

[Stagnation Point]

Isn't their a CAA (UK) circular that advises pilots not to use contaminated runways. It is certainly an advantage of the Turbo Props over the jets, after 20 years flying Turbo Props I had to relearn how to use brakes again, and with no reversers on the Jungle Jet it makes for interesting landings on some runways. Despite having performance figures for contaminated runways I'm very sceptical as to their accuracy. I'm also told that it is nearly impossible to get an accurate BA from a wet or contaminated runway as the mu meters only work properly on dry surfaces.

DUB rwy is one to watch, since it is a concrete surface the rubber build up in the TD zones becomes very slippery when even slightly dampwhich makes the anti skid work overtime. FRA is the same but is a much longer rwy. There are some very good but expensive surfaces that can be applied to rwys and certainly those that are grooved present little problem even when wet.

I guess if the pilots had wanted to divert but were talked out of it by ATC there is lesson for us all.

[126.9]

Robert Vesco

You're in the wrong profession; you should be a private investigator! :) I'm an ex-Crossair pilot that left Crossair because learning from other's is not part of the corporate identity at Crossair. And I believe that the aviation authorities of the world should be investigating Crossair. There is no pre-judgment here: it is all post-judgment.

Perhaps an injection of experienced and open-minded Swissair pilots and flight ops personell into the upper ranks of Crossair would be the saviour...?

[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: 126.9 ]</p>

[Robert Vesco]

126.9 [quote]It has to be noted that the Crossair pilots reaction to any form of criticism here on PPRuNe is usually less than civilised. <hr></blockquote>Unlike most Swiss, I´m not saying that we should not try to learn from others, but it´s just too premature to use the Sarajevo overrun incident as an excuse to say that LX is not a safe airline. I agree that the company culture should be more open to changes, but once again, you could be a bit more civilised yourself...

[quote]Every time one of your aircraft gets airborne from that postage stamp sized country of yours, it flies over our heads. And as long as you're crashing them, we'll be trashing them! <hr></blockquote> Mmmmm let´s see, following that logic, maybe also bash/ban AA, Delta, US Air, because they all (at one time or another) crashed an aircraft. Didn´t an AA MD80 overrun in TN a few years ago during heavy rain ? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[efcop]

126.9

show me an open minded ex SR and I'll gladly listen

[Rusty A300]

[quote]show me an open minded ex SR and I'll gladly listen<hr></blockquote>

Sick comment!

[jetgirl]

JUST HOLD ON

Are we trying to throw more people out of work here or just throwing mud cause we've nothing else to do?? Yes Crossair may have some problems but what airline hasn't especially at the moment. Many of the incidents mentioned above (such as the RJ that went off the runway at ZRH due to the nosewheel not being centred on retraction by the airframe) have NOTHING whatsoever to do with Crossair or the pilots. Yes, there may have been a series of incidents which will no doubt be investigated but dont lets shout endless drivel about an airline before we know the truth. I dont notice anyone saying how unwise it would be to fly on AA now do I?????

And before the fur flies - no i dont work for Crossair and never have.

[Bonaero]

I think what is being said here is that this company is in great need of help! And that help may be at hand in the form of vastly experienced pilots and other staff from the "old" Swissair. It appears though, that the middle management types at Crossair are not aware of it.

A nosewheel not centering, obviously does not point at the pilots. It may however point at the maintainance procedures? Peoples opinions given here; especially when it appears that they may have worked there and have some inside knowledge, cannot be merely written off as "drivel" as you so eloquently put it Madam. You said it yourself: you have never worked there.

[FL310]

The nose-wheel centering problem has been addressed by BAe with a change in the checklists...last item on the landing check is now:

NWS.......centered

[max lenz]

efcop, try <a href="http://home.tiscalinet.ch/maxlenz" target="_blank">web page</a> (German only)

[Hooking Fell]

Now that's bl@@dy interesting reading, Max Lenz.

Puts an entirely new perspective on the perceived / projected quality of Swiss aviation training in general and SR's (obviously misplaced) pride in this respect in particular.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: Hooking Fell ]</p>

[Ignition Override]

R. Vesco: My wife (Sinter Klaus) got me the "Combat Flt. Sim 2: WW2 Pacific Theater", for Christmas. It is the most fun I've had on the computer! Except for reading Pprune.

Stagnation Point. Next to the old center runway (now 21R) in DTW, Michigan, we were de-icing about two winters ago. Although the runway is normally only for departures, in order to speed up the traffic flow, I asked tower about braking action there. They said "we don't know".

Does this operation happen at many airports, where the departing aircraft have no current news on braking action, because nobody has landed on a specific runway for a while? Good luck on a high-speed abort! It seemed that nobody else wanted to ask ATC about abort conditions.

[Aviatrix69]

Hi all,

I have joined Crossair early this year. I was highly impressed by the professionalism and the kind of discussions we can lead with our superiors. I have looked completely different at Crossair before, as I was an SR employee and living in my bubble thinking that there is nothing able to match SR and that we are beyond doubt.
Now I came here to pprune to be able to find valuable information how I can achieve my goal of being one of the most qualified pilots, of learning of the experiences of others, of finding great guys and gals to seriously discuss safety-items.
I am disappionted. Every airline has it's incidents, which are reported, so we can all learn something from it as professionals. Bashing certain airlines in public certainly does not help, and I somewhat miss the airmanship on these pages.

On the other hand thank's to those who also feel the need to visit these pages to help and make aviation safer. I gladly listen to you and cherish you inputs. YOu make the time spent here valuable.

You all, also those bashing and red-faceing :) , have a happy and safe New Year, take care

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: Aviatrix69 ]</p>

[MissChief]

LX crews might have more time to Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, if their check-lists were of a more manageable length. The amount of superfluous checks on the MD-80, as an example, is high. Just a suggestion, before any Xenophobes leap into the attack again..I like Switzerland, and Swissair.

[Hold at Saffa]

[quote]I'm an ex-Crossair pilot that left Crossair because learning from other's is not part of the corporate identity at Crossair <hr></blockquote>
Learning from others is central to the Crossair corporate identity. Evidence the vast array of nations that constitute the checking and training organisation across all aircraft types. World's best practice is the stated and clearly pursued objective.

Disappointingly for some, however, the practise of incorporating recommendations of the hysterical, the windbag, and the pedant is somewhat less common.

[737man]

I think this thread has, as usual, been hijacked to an airline bashing! The real issue is the 146 itself which has one of the highest runway over-run incident rate of any jet aircraft in the world. Perhaps the lack of reversers and autobrakes has something to do with it- plus of course virtually none of the earlier 146's even have auto ground spoilers! I flew the 146 for many years and one of the nicest things about a return to the 737 was the reduced necessity for fancy handwork in the roll-out!

[Few Cloudy]

MMMM. And it's supposed to be STOL isn't it?

[737man]

Only if the runway is dry with good braking action!