Rome FCO

[Blackball]

Having just done a FCO flight, I was held at the holding point of R/W 25 for some 15 mins to allow 5 Italian registered aircraft to go in front of us. After the first incident I asked ATC what number we were. I was informed we were number 2, however it turned out we were number 5.
It is good to see nationalism is alive and well in Italy, maybe we should try the same here inthe UK?

[wheelie my boeing]

Happens frequently at FCO. Also at Paris CDG with Air France, although not to the same extent as the Italians...
Do it here in the UK? But Sir, we would be branded racists and crooks and everything else!

[BOAC]

....should know better at your age:p

[B737NG]

Is it not a free World? So everyone can do as he like it? Democracy has a price.... Buerocracy as well. What is the better one? Choose one out of three options: Tolerate it, ignore it, hate it. Make your day.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[BIK116_8]

only 5 allowed to go in front of you - I think your getting preferential treatment there!

[hetfield]

Same on approach. Kept us high and slow to let pass an ALITALIA which was 10 NM behind us.

[boardingpass]

Benvenuti in Italia! This is what it's like here. If you try and question it, you'll be faced with shrugged shoulders.

[captplaystation]

And even with all that "help" they still bleed money. Imagine the balance sheet without it :ooh:
And you wonder why F1 fans complain about the "cosy" relationship between Ferrari and the
F errari I nternational A ssist, thats how they do business folks, Oh and don't ask the French about the World Cup :D

[AltFlaps]

This type of unprofessionalism and cronyism is why Alitalia went bust in the first place ...

[Rotorhead1026]

If you try and question it, you'll be faced with shrugged shoulders.

That's if you're lucky. More than likely, though, you'll get into what you think is your crew transportation one evening - only to find that it's actually "Rocco" and "Vinnie" taking you for a "long ride". :uhoh:

[moist]

I have had it in FCO before,
They also line them up further back at an intersection.
I have been quite firm/aggressive with ATC and got my departure away!
Don't just sit there, be annoying, just like they are!!! :D

[captplaystation]

Even more annoying in FCO was when you called for start up and at the instant you released TX switch someone jumped in asking the same in Italian (or Italian accent merely on a good day). After a few doses of this, the solution found to be - speak loudly ,s l o w l y ,and for a long time in English, put callsign at beginning and end of TX and finish TX with an exortation to everyone else to listen before speaking and to speak English. It makes you horribly unpopular and results in a few comments I could only partially translate, but at least you get the start up sometime in the next 10min.
Only worst offenders, and in the air, are Air Nostrum if operating in Spanish airspace. Solution is the same, come straight back as soon as they release the TX but speak more slowly the 2nd time with callsign at beginning as well as end. Even the Spanish controllers usually saw the funny side of that one.
It is a common ploy in many countries, lets pretend we don't understand what the English speaking aircraft said and butt-in speaking the local lingo as we know the controller will take the easy option and get our request out the way first before having to "think English". Sometimes it works, but not if there is an awkward Brit ready to play just as dirty :=

[poitiers]

in fact, as an Air France pilot, i also experience regularly the same at LHR. We taxi to the holding point and there we can see a few BA aircraft being cleared to line up. This happens every time i go there. the same a FCO.
to be honest i don't see such things in Spain

[Ratita]

I regularly experience the same problems in FCO...
Who knows, maybe for their controllers giving a higher
priority to italian aircraft is the same as for others driving cars
with big tires :E

CDG is the same, with the exception that there the controllers
big picture about what's happening on the apron is just
as poor as the whole airport layout... no offence though :E:E

[captplaystation]

I operated from LHR from 87-2000 and always found them scrupulously fair, strangely enough, same for CDG except when Concorde was leaving.
Given it's fuel consumption and the fact I was gaining a ring-side seat for the noise and majesty of that great machine taking off I was always happy to make way for that Air France departure. :ok: Somehow an Allie MD80 doesn't command the same respect, even if it is nearly as noisy ;)

[hetfield]

Concerning LHR as well as other british, scandinavian and german airports my experience there is pretty fair ops.

FCO, CDG, MAD, BCN.....ooooops:ouch:

[RoyHudd]

Now be honest, there'd be something worrying if the Latin controllers and pilots started playing scrupulously fair....not in their character really. (And before I get jumped on, I love their countries and their way of life; vive la difference) Next thing, you'd be expecting them to field a test cricket team. Imagine!

[hetfield]

RoyHudd

I like Italy AND their way of living also very much.

But why not have super pastas as well as fair ATCOS?

[captplaystation]

What have the Romans done for us? " running water" Yeah all right then apart from that ? " less crime on the streets" Yeah yeah apart from running water less crime etc etc ( with due apologies to Michael Palin )
How times change, BTW nobody mentioned the orgies :cool:

[Avman]

:eek: That's odd, last time I was at LHR, I saw 4 British registered a/c go past our KLM aircraft!

Blackball, and all others who think like him/her, I think you're just totally paranoid. Go visit the tower at any busy airport and you will find that all sorts of considerations affect departure sequences. And, since the large local carriers generally dominate the majority of movements, the ratio will be naturally higher in their favour.

[Human Factor]

A good trick at FCO is to sit at the junction where the taxiway for the full length of 25 (Twy B?) splits in two and wait until there's a space at the front.:E

[hetfield]

@HF

That's a good one.

Next time I'll try it:ok:

[Human Factor]

It also has the advantage of blocking the taxiway from the right so Alitalia can't sneak passed that way.

You didn't hear it from me though.:oh:

[BelArgUSA]

Why does Benedict XVI kisses the ground after deplaning the flights...?
Surviving Alitalia flight... I would kiss the ground too...
:}
Holy contrails

[hetfield]

@belargusa

Today maybe WE are a little bit nasty.:O

Nevertheless, I always like your inputs here...:D

[threemiles]

Besides the CTOT there may still be restrictions on the departure flow of a specific SID. E.g. in Frankfurt NAT departures may have to wait for a 5 minutes interval, so it may make sense to pull one or two Northbound and otherwise unrestricted departures in between. Happens every day, looks unfair, but is not.

[His dudeness]

Do the math guys: plenty of AZ aircraft in FCO, likewise IB in MAD.
Hence chances are high to be behind one.
I sat behind at least 6 or 7 limey fruit airplane in LHR. And I had more than 2 BA landing up front in MAN. Shocking. However I hate LH in FRA the most. Wherever you look, that ugly yellow crow is around. Scary.

[Cough]

3m,

Yup that can happen, but at a 'fair' airport you wait some days and go to the front of the queue on others. When thats the case, I don't worry knowing that ATC are just trying to maintain traffic flow.

What Blackball describes happens daily at FCO and other airfields. I'm not going to say all Italian airfields because I have been 'helped' at many and I thank those ATC'ers. But at FCO its pretty similar on most visits!

Blackball! After all these years how come you are only just getting frustrated? Is the BB punctuality record suffering so that you only arrive on time rather than 20 mins early every time! Hope you are well....Live at the barbers....:D

[Ratita]

@his dudeness

it's actually not a crow, you might want to make a closer observation next time you're in FRA...:p

[parabellum]

I thought it was a Condor?:confused:

[awblain]

It's definitely supposed to be a crane, although it's lost most of the details in its various incarnations since 1918.

[B737NG]

General education of some Pilots is not that great..... Condor is a Bird as well but the subsidary Company of Lufthansa. Colourful Birds are now more common in Aluminium these days.

Fly safe and land happy (No Birdstrikes please)

NG

[parabellum]

To be honest I thought, (without having the pictures in front of me), that the bird logo on LH and Condor was the same but blue on yellow for LH and yellow on blue for Condor! Haven't seen either for ages, the memory fades, it has NOTHING to do with education Herr. B737NG;)

[halas]

I thought this was about FCO nepotism? Whats a Germanic logo got to do with it?

Try flying for a middle eastern carrier anywhere and see what delays you get. Even in the home base there is no favouritism. Cathay freighter carrying rubber dog-**** calls ready first, going the same direction, goes first, as opposed to what we are carrying.....hmmmm seemed to have shot myself down there:}

Had a slot out of FCO heading toward Rhodes. They would not let us go until the minute was up for the slot. Seemed unusual that the med was pretty quiet that evening, and no level change was denied. Our first sign of another aircraft on any similar route was in Damascus airspace.
Point being that eight Alitalia aircraft launched before us.

And with regard to the full length tactics on 25, it's the intersection departures that amaze me.... Only after the clearance/push-back radio fiasco that one has to endure.

halas

[FlyFree]

Hi there,

Apparently, Italian ATC get ID-tickets with with AZ, so there is a unwritten law...Don't bite the hand that feeds you.....

Been flying out of Italy for 3 years, and have heard this from diff. sources...

It's not just in FCO, but all over Italy, once, flying into CTA ( Catania ) we were vetored and cleared for the ILS before a AZ, the AZ said in Italian to the ATC that " He should know better ".....

Happy landings ( even if later, when in Rome )

[fabmic]

I think you should try to look for some different and deeper explanations than "nationalism", as Italians are on the contrary very "esterophile" people, with absolutely no form of nationalism as you can maybe expect in France.I guess that this case could be due to some expiring slot problem, and that the Italian Controller failed to explain the situation. That I would expect.Then, about the Rocco and Vinnie thing, nobody is named Vinnie in Italy, that is a name for Italian-American people, maybe you've seen too many gangster movies...I just believe that if you want to find failures in any people in this world, you will easily find for any population.Italians make no difference.This discussion appears to be, on the contrary, not really techinical but just a form of entertainment, since it gives you detail about how Ferrari wins in Formula 1 or Italy wins World Cups in football, but no real guess of why that happened.I actually expected something more serious.FabrizioRome ACC

[fabmic]

And no, Alitalia does not give ANYTHING to Italian ATC.Your information are outdated.FabrizioRome ACC

[Dutchdash8]

Last two years I have been flying regulary to FCO for Vueling. I have only occasionally seen some preference for Italian carriers but that could be for slot purposes.... Greetz WB,

[Blackball]

Hi BOAC, you maybe right but I recall the "Tale of the Ancient Mariner", I beleve his luck became cursed when he downed an Albatros, not seen many of them at FCO though.
Cough happy to say that despite being delayed we still made it back into EDI 5 mins early or before EDI ATC shut R/W 24 for its nightly face lift.
I wonder when Scotland gets its independance will we get preferential treatment here?
Just remember "No Pressure".

[BelArgUSA]

You youngsters complain about FCO...? You make me laugh...
Compare that to "airline wars" in the USA... To be first for takeoff.
xxx
Sometime in the late 1970s or early 1980s...
Los Angeles LAX Airport. Two 727 race for the active runway.
Both are proceeding from LAX to SFO.
Ground control tells them to contact tower for takeoff.
PSA 123 says "ROGER" - Continental 987 says "ROGER"...
xxx
Both call the tower, saying "READY FOR DEPARTURE"...
The tower asks "WHO IS FIRST...?" -
Continental pilot says "LAX, WILL LET CONTINENTAL GO FIRST - PSA 123"
PSA pilots are fuming... Continental faked to be PSA on the R/T...!
So, Continental is cleared for takeoff. PSA pilots are still fuming.
xxx
When at about 80-100 Knots, a LOUD FIRE BELL comes on the frequency.
Continental rejects the takeoff, and taxied off the active.
FIRE BELL, NO WARNING LIGHT... but these guys are well trained...
LAX called PSA.. "PSA 123, CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF"...
xxx
No need to tell you WHO keyed the microphone, and tested their fire bell/lights.
:eek:
Happy contrails

[BOAC]

Tale of the Ancient Mariner.....:):):)

[golfyankeesierra]

Oh, I remember one time waiting with running engine for our gate at T4 to be cleared. It was occupied by a BA 744 which was obviously ready to be towed but according to GMC BA had no tug. While waiting though (for 45 minutes !), we could see several other BA aircraft towed away from their gates just in time for another Speedbird (which all had just touched down) to dock. :mad:

Still waiting for my chance to send a Speedbird in the G/A, just to make things even;)

[KC135777]

what's the rush Gents?
don't you guys get paid by the minute?
I sure do. and last few weeks, all 3 times taking off out of FCO-JFK, had to depart 16R(due to TW), no problem as we saunter on down--after waiting to cross 25, then further waiting at the end.
we say, "ka-ching" when that occurs, and smile! ;)

besides, we're in contract negotiations.
AA is using the DGS (docking guidance systems) in DFW, MIA & JFK to start and stop our pay, based on aircraft movement....NOT brakes released/set anymore. :*
what goes around, comes around......"1 minute at a time" ;)

KC135777

[FlyingRat]

TRN today. Low vis in force. Told we're numer three for start. Five and an hour later we're told that we are number three!! An Ally Md-80 managed to land get turned around and be out before we were allowed to start..

[suninmyeyes]

One of the previous posts inferred LHR gave priority to BA departures. Having operated frequently out of LHR I found the opposite. BA long haul planes used to have a short taxi from T4 to R/W 27L, had a lengthy safety video and were often slow with the radio loadsheet. Consequently they were sometimes not ready when reaching the hold point. Tower often said to BA planes "report ready". Only then were they put in the sequence. I'm sure any LHR tower controllers who read this forum will confirm it and that they do not give any other airlines the "report ready" instruction. So in my view LHR ATC not biased towards BA, if anything the opposite.

[maybepilot]

Many of us are paid by the mile that's why we are always in a hurry, being early or late doesn't affect our salary thus it's better to be early (more time home).

Hey to my knowledge you guys ain't paid by the mile nor by the minute but by the TAX PAYER!!!:=:=:=:=

Hey no bad feelings OK?;)

[B737NG]

The majority of us is not getting paid by the taxpayer, we pay tax and we pay the Government and all the other Officials who think they are the ones who giving us something.... vice versa I would say the Government is Taxpayers Employee, did you try it that way?

As we use less time to have our Engines running we do not pollute the Air and the Enviorement, needless to say everybody is benefitting from that fact. Earlier at home is the convenient part of it but as a matter fact we save alot more then time and money by that without having a direct (monetary) benefit. If I would taxi slower and fly a smaller MACH I would certainly get some overtime as our roster get´s us close to the benchmark....but the benefit of beeing earlier in your own bed: Priceless....

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[TheKabaka]

Oh, I remember one time waiting with running engine for our gate at T4 to be cleared. It was occupied by a BA 744 which was obviously ready to be towed but according to GMC BA had no tug. While waiting though (for 45 minutes !), we could see several other BA aircraft towed away from their gates just in time for another Speedbird (which all had just touched down) to dock.

Clearly not well versed tn the BA way. I bet the guys on the 74 were just as frustrated as you. There is no preference for anyone at LHR!

[maybepilot]

The majority of us is not getting paid by the taxpayer,

You talk about the majority, i was referring to the minority: Alitalia.
In their case not only the taxpayer is responsible for the agony of a bankrupt airline but also for the wellbeing of their furloughs!

[golfyankeesierra]

Oh, I remember one time waiting with running engine for our gate at T4 to be cleared. It was occupied by a BA 744 which was obviously ready to be towed but according to GMC BA had no tug. While waiting though (for 45 minutes !), we could see several other BA aircraft towed away from their gates just in time for another Speedbird (which all had just touched down) to dock.
Clearly not well versed tn the BA way. I bet the guys on the 74 were just as frustrated as you. There is no preference for anyone at LHR!
But on this 74 there were no guys; it was empty and waiting to be towed to a remote parking.
And sorry, I wasn't aiming at ATC (the best!), just got a little bit frustrated by BA:\