Some Questions...

[Beckenham_Boy]

Q1: My dad has been going on on about this for ages...

he says: "why don't aircraft have cameras or mirrors so that pilots can see the wing flaps, tail..." He says if they did, the spanair MD-82 at barajas that crashed wouldn't have taken off if the pilots could have seen that there was no flap...

Q2: Why is the cockpit door of a 747 closed before pax are boarded? i recently flew to Beijing with BA, and was hoping i could go up to see the cockpit and chat with crew before departure etc... but "cockpit door is closed before boarding" :confused:

[G SXTY]

(1) The question pre-judges the outcome of an active investigation - nobody yet knows what may or may not have prevented that crash. We don't have mirrors or cameras because we have devices that indicate the position of flaps and other systems, as well as take-off configuration warnings. These are very effective, and over the millions of flights that have operated since their introduction, you can count the number of crashes that have occured on the fingers of one hand.

(2) I don't work for BA but I very much doubt it is closed before boarding. Before engine start, yes, but there are people like cabin crew and dispatchers who need access to the flightdeck before an aircraft can depart. More likely the crew were busy and that was the first explanation that came to hand. Unless we're extremely busy, we're usually happy to have visitors to the flightdeck before or after the flight.

[wiggy]

Re Q2. Answer - We are very busy on the flight deck before departure - contrary to popular opinion we don't do what our passengers do i.e. just pitch up, settle into our seats and wait for things to start! Whilst your dad is settling in the pilots have a whole host of tasks to perform, e.g. checks/computer loading/paperwork checking and signing/ liasing with Air Traffic Control/Ground Crew/CabinCrew/briefings and on a 747 probably all to be done in 40 minutes or so as the clock ticking down towards the all important scheduled departure time. Whilst most of us will have the door ajar before start (so those that need to can come and go ) we rarely have time for visitors or a chat before departure.

Next time your dad could try asking in flight for a quick look after landing but again there is normally a need to get passengers off rapidly: for immigration reasons ( particularly into the US) , to get the turn round going for the next flight, and probably 'cos the crew want to get home/to their hotel. Sadly in these days of the locked flight deck door our contact with our passengers has reduced and, IMHO the job is all the worse for it...

Q1. - GSXTY has given you the answer.

[Contacttower]

he says: "why don't aircraft have cameras or mirrors so that pilots can see the wing flaps, tail..." He says if they did, the spanair MD-82 at barajas that crashed wouldn't have taken off if the pilots could have seen that there was no flap... Done to death here (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/342896-visual-monitoring-control-surfaces-flight.html)....

I was surprised at first that most of the pro pilots who answered on the thread rejected the use of cameras (although many aircraft have them anyway) but if they think they aren't much use then I guess they aren't much use....

[G SXTY]

Few crashes have a single cause. Most are caused by a complex chain of errors, any one of which - if spotted in time - could have averted disaster. I doubt the Madrid crash will turn out to be any different.

Why install cameras to confirm the position of flaps when they are already confirmed by the flap position indicator? Or put it another way, if someone can omit to check the flap position indicator, what is to say they would check a camera instead?

[Donkey497]

Another point about a camera looking along a wing is that unless you a re prepared to fit lots of cameras loking at specific things, together with an appropriate set of scales beside each thing being monitored, it is very difficult to tell if there is 5 degrees or 15 degrees of deflection & without then checking that against a big take off list, there's not a lot of point in fiting however many cameras you'd need. And to to do that would just increase cockpit workload, so I can see why the full time pilots were coming from when they said that it wouldn't benefit them much, if at all.

[SNS3Guppy]

Cockpit doors are generally closed for security reasons, though with the commotion of boarding, cockpit doors may also be closed for some privacy and to enable a quieter cockpit environment in which to prepare for the flight.

[Flight Detent]

Anyway BB...

These days it's only full of computer screens and semi-blank panels, and with no Flight Engineer and a tradional set of control panels, there's not really much to see.
Just look out for a B747-300....and THERE is a real flight deck!!

Duck...incoming...:ok:

[ITCZ]

Q1: My dad says: "why don't aircraft have cameras or mirrors so that pilots can see the wing flaps, tail...
Think about this - does your dad drive a car? It is not all that different.

My car has a few controls that affect other bits of the car.

Once started, I select the automatic transmission to "D" and drive off. If I am wondering if the car is in neutral or reverse, I can look at the indicator next to the auto transmission select lever and see if it is in "P", "R", "N" "D" or "3" "2" "1" if forcing it to drive in lower gear ratios. I do not have a camera (with attendant spotlight to illuminate) inside the gearbox to visually observe which gears are spinning on which other gears.

Likewise, my car has a handbrake. I can tell that it is on (if I didn't remember setting it) by looking at the position of the lever. Because it could cause a bigger problem, there is a little red warning lamp on the dash display that tells me if the handbrake is on. I don't have a camera under the car focussed on the brake assemblies.

Turn indicators - I can tell if I have selected a left turn indication by (a) the feel of the lever in the turn position (b) visual observation of the lever (c) hearing the "click-click" audible signal and (d) observe the corresponding flashing light on the dash display. There is no external camera to observe the actual indicator lamps flashing.

Just like a car, we have sensors, levers, warning/status lamps, etc. These include flap selector handles, flap/slat position indicators, gear handles, gear position indicators, etc...

Why is the cockpit door of a 747 closed before pax are boarded? i recently flew to Beijing with BA, and was hoping i could go up to see the cockpit and chat with crew before departure etc... but "cockpit door is closed before boarding"
I am afraid that it is because we are busy.

We are busy before we get to the aeroplane. Completing and checking the flight plan. Checking the weather. Checking the load information. Determining the fuel to be loaded.

We are busy when we arrive at the aeroplane. Checking that there is no maintenance due or no problems that will affect the intended flight. Checking that all the cockpit instrumentation and systems are working properly, and set for takeoff. Checking that the flight plan is loaded properly. Doing the performance calculations and selecting the speed and flap setting for takeoff. Getting an airways and departure clearance. Entering the clearance. Pilot flying briefing the other on how he/she will fly the departure and tracking/drills to be followed if there is an abnormal during the takeoff. Checking that all preflight actions have been completed and cockpit settings correct by calling for a checklist. Checking that that fuel ordered has been correctly loaded. Checking that the passenger and freight loaded is present and correct. Sign off and hand over necessary documentation and order the doors to be closed and get clearances from Tower and coordinate with pushback engineer to start engines.....

Busy! :)

Beckenham Boy, it is good to hear that there are still some passengers out there who approach a flight with anticipation and enthusiasm.... I would welcome you on my flight deck any day, only..... after I get all these things done!!! :ok:

[Scumbag O'Riley]

These days it's only full of computer screens and semi-blank panels, and with no Flight Engineer and a tradional set of control panels, there's not really much to see.I actually found that the most interesting part of going upto a highly automated flight deck back in the days when it was possible to do so in flight. A huge 747-400 being controlled by a couple of guys in a room not much bigger than a cupboard, quite a technological marvel, I thought.

[Beckenham_Boy]

Thanks, I love more than anything to fly. I got to sit in F/O seat in BA 757 at Barajas, Madrid in August, absolutely fantastic!:) Going to start my PPL in a few weeks, hoping i'll be there soon... PS what airline do you fly for? I usually fly LHR or LGW to GRX via MAD with BA or some budget airline...
Cheers, BB:ok:

[Saintsman]

As has already been mentioned, there are already indicators fitted to show positions of flight controls etc. that work really well.

Cameras are fine in theory though they are not fool proof. People will see what they want to see. Having a camera does not necesarily mean things will be safer. Of course if the 'public' demanded them, they would be fitted