IS this right!!!

[peterprobe]

Stopped in a mac dees today....... I know sad. But read a bit of paper in between munching crap food. The said that an air ambulance had to refuse to go get a patient as it was out of there county, at night I must add. Sadly the young girl died but on the avaition side of things....... not being a HEMS pilot how the **** does that happen. My thoughts were
1.Night flying is night flying no matter what.
2. Yes you get to know your area OK but still don't land until your happy.
3. Why is there a boundry when the job of a HEMS aircraft is to provide speed and professional help on scene.
4. A bloody county bountry is just that a county boundry not the bloody iron curtain.
5. I would wage money that the pilot and medics on board really wanted to go but some arse old policy or money or NHS type rule stopped them.
6. Either the people employed are trusted to make a good decision as to if it is safe or bin the lot of them as why have it if it has to be regulated to the " enth" degree.
7. Feel really sorry for the girls family and her if this was about powerplays or some charity power plays.

Nuff said your thoughts please those who know far more about HEMS stuff than I.:(

[AlanM]

Are HEMS allowed to operate at night in the UK??? :ugh:

[Hilico]

The title of your thread is 'is this right'. If you read it in a newspaper, the answer is invariably 'no'. If everyone realised this simple truth, there would be a lot less prejudice, a lot less fear and a lot more hope.

Basically the crew will have had excellent reasons for making their choice. It's a choice a little like asking if you would ride a motorcycle 50 miles along a clear road in half an hour to deliver an urgent package. 'Sure' you say.

Now imagine someone tells you 'and the last 25 miles will be in fog, but you still have to do it in half an hour'. Whatever you now choose to do, the package will definitely not get there. However, with one of the choices, you will definitely die.

The newspaper will have chosen to focus on the package however.

[timex]

HEMS in the UK cannot do Night Ops, Police ASU's tend to cover during the dark hours, however they are not dedicated HEM's aircraft.

[HVHmt]

Med evac is a different business.
I saw a flight cancelled (grounded by engineers) for a Rad Alt in the middle of the day (which happened to be CAVU), sustaining fatalities.
As well, a Captain not accepting "the mision" due to shallow freezing fog, although the visibility and ceiling were 1500ft and 6 sm, unsure of the patient's outcome.

[Senior Pilot]

Just to fill in a bit more detail, the Daily Mail had this article, (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1078415/Woman-left-die-roadside-ambulance-bosses-refuse-let-crew-cross-county-boundary.html) which is (I think) the one that peterprobe is referring to.

A couple of quotes from the article:

A student was left dying by the side of a road after an air ambulance 20 miles away was refused permission to cross a county boundary, it has been revealed.

Rebecca Wedd, 23, had to wait 42 minutes for medical help after she was hit by a car as she walked with a group of college friends to a summer ball.

Police arrived in seven minutes, but it was almost three quarters of an hour after the 999 call when paramedics finally appeared.

Rebecca Wedd, 23, died after an NHS trust took 42 minutes to dispatch an ambulance to her

The national target for answering such a call is eight minutes.

Miss Wedd was eventually flown to a nearby hospital but died of her injuries the following day.

It has emerged that an air ambulance crew three minutes away from the scene of the accident was initially refused permission to answer the call from the A433 in Gloucestershire, because it meant crossing a county boundary from Wiltshire.

The emergency controller contacted the Wiltshire Air Ambulance after the accident but was told the helicopter could not fly outside the county at night.

This was said to be part of a pre-existing arrangement between WAA and Wiltshire Police, which shared the helicopter.

The controller then contacted Wiltshire Police directly and persuaded them to bend the rule because of the emergency.

Permission was given and the aircraft was finally dispatched at 12.02pm, and arrived at the scene at 12.05am - 43 minutes after the initial 999 call.

The report also highlighted other failings by the Great Western Ambulance Service that night.

A nearby ambulance dealing with a less urgent call was not diverted to Rebecca's aid and no ambulances were available in nearby Cirencester because of staff sickness.

[Dan Reno]

Had this screw-up happened stateside, the lawsuit to follow would have been so huge that thereafter there would be doubt as to how/what/who would have been dispatched to save Rebecca's life. Perhaps that's what's needed here to awake the buerocrats!

[Droopy]

Permission was given and the aircraft was finally dispatched at 12.02pm, and arrived at the scene at 12.05am - 43 minutes after the initial 999 call.

Is this what they said..or meant?

[peterprobe]

Permission was given and the aircraft was finally dispatched at 12.02pm, and arrived at the scene at 12.05am - 43 minutes after the initial 999 call.


**** me thats a fast helimachopter or a very very small county!!!

[Matthew Parsons]

Before anyone judges the decisions, there is quite a bit of important information missing. Was the nature of the injuries communicated to the controller? Were there other emergencies at the same time? Would an immediate response have made a difference?

Just imagine if the crews jumped to every emergency outside their area of responsibility, conflicting with the people who were supposed to respond, whilst people die in their own area because they weren't where they were supposed to be. That would be a very decisive lawsuit.

It's not as simple as assuming every crew will be able to jump to the first accident they hear of. Procedures, including boundaries, are set up for these events. If they've discovered a flaw in the system here, then the procedures will have to be amended.

[donut king]

Basic HEMS mantra:

The decision to go/ no go must be based on sound aviation decision making/ judgement. The nature of the patient's medical condition must not influence a pilot's decision. In fact, the aircrew must not be advised of the patient's condition during their acceptance or declination of a flight.

Search and rescue is a whole other animal!

DK

[Bravo73]

Before anyone judges the decisions, there is quite a bit of important information missing. Was the nature of the injuries communicated to the controller? Were there other emergencies at the same time? Would an immediate response have made a difference?

Don't worry, Matthew. That's SOP for the Daily 'Hate' Mail. :oh:

[Matthew Parsons]

The decision to go/ no go must be based on sound aviation decision making/ judgement. The nature of the patient's medical condition must not influence a pilot's decision. In fact, the aircrew must not be advised of the patient's condition during their acceptance or declination of a flight.


DK, that's an excellent point. I think its a good mantra for SAR as well, at least to an extent. Long and interesting discussion, but a bit off topic. Maybe another time.

Matthew.