24hr Bottle To Throttle Rule Inbound?

[Arty Fufkin]

A bloke in the pub recently told me that a change to the current regs regarding alcohol comsuption prior to flying are being closely looked at. Apparently the intention is to increase the period of abtsainance from 12 to 24 hrs. While I am a firm believer that booze and flying don't mix, does this strike anyone else as a little bit over the top? I can see several problems, not least:

8pm phone call at home, "Sorry mate, need you for a trip to ****** tommorow, departure time 1200Z,that OK?"

Arty replies " Soz mate, just had a glass of wine with my dinner, will have to slip departure to 1900Z for me to sober up!"

An end to late notice tasking? Perhaps this is a welfare move, or maybe we will (as at some american units) have a total alcohol ban unless on leave.

Blinding move I say, anyone got any thoughts?

[Pontius Navigator]

Apparently the intention is to increase the period of abtsainance from 12 to 24 hrs.

Arty replies " Soz mate, just had a glass of wine with my dinner, will have to slip departure to 1900Z for me to sober up!"

Actually nothing new then?

In the early 80's most of us were dry Sunday night to Friday. The sqn manning was so tight that you were either due to fly or on QRA or first reserve.

On a FJ sqn you might expect to be in the sim, or to fly. Maybe a pm flight would be OK but could you always predict you would not be on an early?

Where it would really kick in is the overseas RTB. Not for nothing did the V-force usually have a minimum 3-day away with the middle day as a rest day. Most crews obeyed the unwritten rule and didn't get wazzed on that last night.

[airborne_artist]

So you introduce a stand-by readiness state, with no alcohol for 24 hrs before going on stand-by. If not on stand-by, nor on a planned task, then you are free to drink. Which means permanent stand-by unless on leave in some units....;)

[Tiger16]

24 hours bottle-to-throttle does sound excessive but, IMHO, the current regs are inadequate. 10 hours isn't always enough for a full recovery from a good session, and we all know how often the guidance of "no more than 2.5 units in the preceding 24" is ignored!

The most troubling scenario I've typically encountered is when authorising crews from a distance, ie after an overnighter away from home base. It's 99.9% certain that the crew will have been out on the p*ss, however the Auth has no option but to take the crew's word that they're "fit-to-fly". Whilst my trust in crew's has never (to my knowledge!) been abused, this will catch someone out someday - guaranteed!

God, I sound like a doddery old killjoy...

[Pontius Navigator]

Actually I believe it has been more honoured than broken.

I remember one occasion where our skipper went beyond the point of discretion but the rest of the crew were more abstemious. Really OC Goose should have grounded us.

On another occasion, same crew, and I was plastered. A sqn cdr from a different group was most disproving but didn't make the sensibl ecommand decision to ground me. Fortunately the aircraft broke.

Many years later, on large crewed aircraft none of the pilots I flew with drank to any extent the night before. Mores do change.

But it must be recognised that to err is human and not to force someone to lie if they did drink too much.

[dallas]

Seems to me the only reason to legislate further is to provide a means to prosecute; those who break the existing limits will continue to do so, until they grow up or are killed, while those who are wiser will continue to operate sensibly.

I think the original poster's 'bloke in a pub' scenario is as far as any change has got - alcohol is out of the system by 12hrs, and an arbitrary figure of 24hrs has no basis to be any better than, say, 16hrs. That said, their airships are unemployed enough to bother themselves with more trifling matters, such as issuing diktats about blue uniform, so I won't head down the bookies just yet, to place my tenner on this being made-up.

[BEagle]

In the early 80's most of us were dry Sunday night to Friday. The sqn manning was so tight that you were either due to fly or on QRA or first reserve.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Speak for yourself, mate. That certainly wasn't the case where I was.

People are generally self-regulating far more sensibly these days than was ever the case in the late 70s, for example.

No point in fixing what ain't broke. But breathalysing half the air farce board every time they come up with daft 'Friday afternoon ideas' might prove revealing!

Same goes for some of those near catatonic people who've been stupid enough to have a 'gozome' session at some Malvinas drinking den before pouring themselves into the northbound TriShaw.....

[Wader2]

BEagle, was that manning wasn't tight but crews were?:)

[Wensleydale]

I remember a station call out during the evening back in the early 1980s....

My Flt Cdr wanted me to fly, an offer that I had to turn down having recently partaken in a couple of beers. (I had got a lift into work). Follow up was a hats on in front of the Sqn Boss next day for refusing to fly.

So much for rule books. :ouch:

[johnfairr]

I remember a TacEval/MinEval at Coningsby in the mid-70s that was called at about 0200 after a particularly heavy session in the OM. Lots of shuffling of feet when it came to generation of aircraft . . . . . :\:(:\

[CirrusF]

I remember in the eighties being sent off on an early morning solo aerobatics sortie on the Bulldog as punishment for being too hungover after a long session the night before. One of the QFIs followed along behind in another Bulldog to ensure that I did the requisite number of Cuban8s and slow-rolls etc.

[Truckkie]

Not really a problem these days.

Spend seven months of the year deployed OOA where alcohol is banned:mad:

Spend 2 months of the other 5 on standby duties:mad:

The days of the C130 fleet swanning around the world are long gone.

Not a bad idea to enforce a 24 hr rule if you ask me - most crews have been self-regulating for years now.

If any of my crew pitch up worse for wear they get a b:mad:ing! I also expect my crew to keep me in line!

[Wader2]

In the days pf lunchtime drinking I remember one captain practically begging for a sortie that afternoon as he needed to fly. He was told no way and that he would only be put on the flypro when the flt cdr was ready.

Duly p1ssed off he went and had a glass of sherbet. About 1330 the FC returned and told him he was now flying a 1600. When he pointed out he had been drinking he was threatened that he would be charged with being drunk on duty and refusing an order.

What to do?

On a Vulcan easy peasey. Every good AEO carried a bunch of U/S fuses in his pencil box or recognised as suspected TRU failure.

[Affirmatron]

Why stop at 24 hours? Why not 28? 36? 48?

Is the current 12 hours rule really a problem?

[Brain Potter]

Are the current regulations causing problems then?

Has anyone turned up for work having stayed within the current rules and still had >0.2 mg of alcohol in their blood? I seriously doubt it.

If any problem does exist, it would be amongst those who already break the current rules - more stringent rules would make no difference.

In fact, a 24-hour rule is likely to be broken far more often. For example, an evening call for an aeromed the following morning may induce a crew member and his/her exec to ignore that glass of wine consumed with dinner. Both parties know that it would be undetectable the following day and would consider it ridiculous to refuse a task in such circumstances. They wouldn't receive much support from on high for applying the regulations to the letter, and "lack-of-flexibility" would be cited by those affected.

The absence of sensible regulation would result in reliance on self-policing balanced against the importance of the task.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Many years ago at a secret SH base in Hampshire the station was having an open day and had laid on all the revelries and air show stuff that they could. That morning an Italian transport, (type long lost in the crevices of an aging mind), pitched up. Lunchtime came and, being the outstanding hosts we were back then they were invited to the Sgts. Mess for lunch which they gratefully accepted.

So, there we are, we have our lunch and I'm sat opposite one of the crew who is craning his neck looking, obviously for something, along the whole table. Again, being an outstanding host, I asked our guest what I could help him with. He responded "Wine?". It turns out that in their messes at home they have carafes of wine on the table at lunchtime.

Upon further questioning, (since it might be possible the rear-crew might enjoy a tipple I was sure the two winged gods at the pointed end wouldn't), it turns out that a glass or two of wine over lunch before an afternoon trip was de riguer for both front and rear crew. We pointed out that the bar was open and they could buy some if they wished. Off they toddled and came back with a nice big glass of wine each. It was later confirmed by our two winged gods that theirs had done the same.

An hour or two later they were giving their display...:eek:

[Mike Read]

When I flew for BEA it was always reported that Air Chance pilots had wine with their on board crew meals.

[Saintsman]

I suppose it was a few years ago, but often FJ crew would strap in wearing their masks with the oxygen set to 100%.

Heard another story about a squadron exchange in Germany where the Yanks didn't turn up on day two because all of them were still pissed from the evening before... Mind you, that was in the days where drinking and driving were the norm.:=

[Pontius Navigator]

Heard another story about a squadron exchange in Germany where the Yanks didn't turn up on day two because all of them were still pissed from the evening before...

Had that at Coningsby in '87 after the air show. USAFE had allocated us a C141 - we didn't want it as it was too big but it came anyway. Next morning the crew were to fly the jet to Mildenhall to collect a load and RTB. The crews were all reservists moonlighting from Pan Am and the like and not even out of bed at take-off time. Anyway they couldn't take-off until we had done a fod plod and cleared the ramp of all the stalls, barriers and aircraft.

Eventually they ramp was clear, about 1400. I found the captain still in bed. No problem, he said, we've gone tech, delay 24 hr to RTB direct.

Sure enough, full fuel load and off to the States, no pax, no freight and the worst that could happen would be a mild bollocking.

We live too much for now and in big scheme of things what does an extra day amount to?

[soddim]

Oh for the days when men were men and flying was a vocation rather than a job. No drinking on the ladder and no smoking in the cockpit seemed to work very well - never heard of a drink induced flying accident in my time but I met a lot of miserable sober people who couldn't fly but were good at making life miserable for those who did.

[Grabbers]

What about random breath tests around the F700/Auth sheets? If you've nothing to worry about...

[thunderbird7]

Damn! And there was me thinking GASOs said no drinking within 50' of the aircraft and no smoking within 8 hours.

[davejb]

I think it's unfair to expect people to stay teetotal just on the offchance they might get an unexpected trip.

You should be on the flypro, or on an official standby, or should be given a definite period that you are free for - eg 'you aren't on standby, the earliest you'll be airborne is 12 hrs from being called'. It's a career, not a job, but it isn't a calling.

Wartime it all goes to pot of course - but it's not fair to expect people to spend years sitting in flying kit next to the phone, being grabbed at no notice so they can go do a training sortie for practise just 'cos some airframe came 'S' unexpectedly.

(In wartime getting pi$$ed is part of the preflight, anyhow).

Harry Staish, early hours of yet another holiday ruined...I'd landed after another 8 or 9 hours of buoy loading

HS: - 'Are you coming or going?'

Me: - 'Wish I fecking knew, Sir'

(All that saved me was that I was in Int drinking coffee by the time he'd believed his ears. Mind you, promotion and myself were pretty much strangers over my career).

[spheroid]

Seems a bit like being at sea.... When embarked on an FF/DD you are the only crew so you are always at 45 minutes alert....therefore no drinking at sea....

[Art Field]

As a Tanker Captain you not only have to keep an eye on your own crew but sometimes your customers as well. Many moons ago, having diverted into a popular holiday centre accompanying a FJ that was leaking fuel faster than we could put it in, we were forced to spend a few days in a resort hotel awaiting spares. The FJ crew were without any change of kit or allowances so were provided with the wherewithal by our impress holder. This proved too much of a treat and on the first possible recovery day, on going down for breakfast, we were met by said pair coming into the hotel, just able to hold each other up, swearing they could hack it. Not behind my tanker you couldn't. Fortunately for them their aircraft did not come up for reasons I did not feel inclined to inquire about too deeply and a very contrite and sober pair flew out the next day.

[Occasional Aviator]

Hmm. Interesting to compare this thread with the argument that you should wear a flying suit even when not on the Flypro, as you could be asked to fly immediately. Presumably we wouldn't be seeing anyone in flying suits in the bar during the week then?

[goneeast]

Day after a dining in night "down south" I was woken unreasonably early to be told that we were flying, as both F3 were u/s and there was a QRA based alert on (C 130 launch on QRA?????????). It was a planned day off, and the powers knew that we were dining -in because they were equally plastered at 2 AM. I rolled into work and point blank refused to fly. OC ops wasnt to happy, but didnt push the issue. Only thing that worried me was the willingness of others to appease him while being considerably worse for wear than I was.

Secondly, I am sure a medic will fill in the gaps, but if I have 4 pints(for example), at lunchtime on Sunday, how much of that alchol is in my system at noon the next day.? If it is zero, then a 24 hour rule is unenforcable anyway.

[Ken Scott]

In the early 90s I was on the Duty Working Crew (at the secret Wiltshire airbase) one Friday. We were stood down so despatched with all speed for happy hour to start drinking, shortly followed by a tannoy for the DWC - I took the call, & Ops said they had a task for us, a fast taxy test for a nosewheel shimmy - I pointed out that we'd all been drinking, & the OpsO asked 'How many have you had?' !! It may not have been 'flying' exactly, but still 'drunk in charge of a vehicle'....

I was always led to believe that the In-flight meal boxes provided by the French Air Force contained a small bottle of wine.....

A friend who was on Nimrods in the 70s was stood down & in the bar when Staneval called him up, looking to do a check ride. When advised that he had been drinking, Staneval said, 'You've haven't had more than one pint have you?'!

[StopStart]

http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/issues/05_04/images/pilot.jpg

To quote the prophet: Man up, wet pants.

[BEagle]

I can only presume that there is an unwritten 'emergency only' rule privy to senior auths when a highly urgent scenario arises...

I was once enjoying a pre-prandial G&T when the phone rang - an urgent requirement for a 3rd Q tanker launch as the Sovs were getting playful (yes, we had enough serviceable jets back in those days and it was a very 'can do' squadron!). I told the auth that I'd had a few sips, to which he replied "I'm allowed to let you fly as long as you haven't had more than one". I hadn't, he was OK with that, we launched with the very able co-pilot as flying pilot and the Int boys got the first good photos of a Bear Golf as a result.

Agree with you, Stoppers! Man up, wet pants - and don't fix wot ain't broke!

[Old Fella]

These days I would be more concerned about what was being smoked or snorted pre-flight. Most booze is readily detected if it has been over-indulged in, not so easy to detect those on dope. :=

[Tigger_Too]

As a VERY rough rule of thumb, the body processes one unit of alcohol every hour. So take an average :\ Sunday session:

Curry lunch at the Mess, arrive at 12.00, 4 pints, feeling bit full, switch to wine, 4 glasses, back to my place, feeling better now, 4 more pints, call out for a pizza, 2 glasses of wine, one for the road? Alright, just a double Remy if you insist.

Total intake: 24 units. 12 units processed during the day, so you stagger of to bed at midnight with 12 units in your blood.

First wave? Met brief at 08.00? 4 units left, so that is the equivalent of 2 double vodkas for breakfast. Yum!

On the programme for a midday take-off? Blood alcohol effectively zero (unless you had 2 double vodkas for breakfast!)

Summary: It needs to be a BLOODY good session before the 12 hour rule is inappropriate. :}

[Runaway Gun]

Yeah okay Tigger, that's alright for you ladies, but what about for us guys? ;)

[Tigger_Too]

This is Sunday remember. We had a proper session on Saturday night! :\

[Airborne Aircrew]

never heard of a drink induced flying accident in my time but I met a lot of miserable sober people who couldn't fly but were good at making life miserable for those who did.

Ain't that the truth... There should be a certain "miserable quotient" past which all promotion stops... :D

[CirrusF]

Summary: It needs to be a BLOODY good session before the 12 hour rule is inappropriate. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Most people after drinking as heavily as that would have a very disturbed sleep, and would have plenty of residual by-products of alcohol breakdown still in the bloodstream. It is these by-products of alcohol and disturbed sleep that give you the hangover and and degraded performance the morning after, rather than the alcohol itself. So although you might not have any more alcohol in your blood, you would probably not be at full performance.

The nasty by products of alcohol can hang around degrading performance for a long time depending on various factors. In the days when I was a fairly serious rower (rowing with oars, not fists), after a bit of a drink it would sometimes take three days before my erg times were back to their peak.

[Airborne Aircrew]

When I was in flying training we were told that the 24 hour rule was due, specifically, to the fact that alcohol remains in the inner ear fluid for up to 24 hours making it more sensitive to motion and therefore raising the potential for disorientation/Coriolis Effect. Now, it might have been a wily old FS Loadie trying to justify the rule with "science", but that's what we were told...

[PPRuNeUser0139]

.. or at least a version of it.
Interesting to compare this thread with the argument that you should wear a flying suit even when not on the Flypro, as you could be asked to fly immediately. Presumably we wouldn't be seeing anyone in flying suits in the bar during the week then?
<whoosh!>
Think the Occasional Aviator's observation passed the majority here by as no-one picked up on it.
Always seemed to me that there were/are quite a few people out there who needed to bolster their insecure egos with the "security blanket" offered by a flying suit before knocking back the pints.. We Brits have an odd relationship with alcohol.. Glad to leave all of that behind.
sv

[Grabbers]

Why not just transpose the current UK drink driving limits to aviation and then install breathalysers on every sqn auth/ops desk, every engineer 'line office' and every ATC. Employ the less than useful scuffers to monitir/administer the system. 3 strikes and you're fizzed. 3 fizzers and you're surplus to service needs. Job done - I vote Grabbers for CAS:ok:

[Arty Fufkin]

As many people have pointed out, the 12hr rule is eminently sensible and self policed to great effect. True, some people may kick the ar*e out of it but those same people are even less likely to adhere to a more restrictive rule.

Standby crews? Fine if you have the people available.

No drinking on school nights? Unless I'm on leave, every night is a potential school night, weekends are strictly notional. 12 hrs bottle to throttle ties neatly in with my 12 hrs required crew rest before reporting.

No drinking as on det / at sea? When was the last time you spent 6 years on det / at sea?

The day when I get given a fixed roster with unchangeable working days, or a guarantee of not less than 24hrs callout, is the day I will see this as workable.

Anyway, its Friday night, I off to get hoovered!!!!

[BillHicksRules]

There is a depressingly large number of people in this thread who seem to be unable to do without alcohol.

Rather scary considering.

BHR

[goneeast]

Yes, I think we should all live in a "dry" environment to prevent the non-presbyterian oiks larging it in their down time. Like I do .. no pubs (but all you can drink brunch on Fridays..20 mins after the mosque chucks out.) :E

In other words BHR..its banter mate.

[spheroid]

never heard of a drink induced flying accident in my time I can think of a couple although they were before my time. There was the RN Seaking which crashed somewhere near Leucars... I think they ran out of fuel... and the there was the Gazelle which hit the wires in the Wye Valley. We both of those accidents attributed to alcohol ?

[EdSett100]

The existing rule is good enough IMHO. I am a little worried by some thoughts here that, at home in peace time, we shouldn't drink on "school nights". I will not be refrained from going out on the lash on any evening if, at the time I leave the house, I have not been scheduled to fly before the following midday. Potential for a call out or not, I work to live, not live to work.

[Zoom]

It doesn't have to be particularly alcoholic for me as I actually enjoy the taste of beer as much as its buzz - honest. I used to be partial to the odd pint of draught Tennents LA if I was driving and, even though it was only 1% alcohol, it tasted very much like the real thing. Unfortunately it is no more. But I found some bottled Cobra Zero% the other day and did a little trial to see if it fitted the bill. I chilled it nicely over a day or so, cracked a bottle open last night, had a long slurp and - guess what? It's as bad as Kaliber. End of test.

:(:yuk::{

[BillHicksRules]

Edsett,

And can you not "live" without "going out on the lash on any evening"?

Cheers

BHR

[Runaway Gun]

Maybe, but it certainly helps to put up with all the flack at work nowadays.

Anyway, must iron my blues now so that I can be mistaken for a bus conductor tomorrow...