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Farmer 1
15th Oct 2008, 07:43
I understand the new Dambusters film will not be at all interested in historical accuracy.

Unless, of course, Guy Gibson's dog was actually called Nidge.

Loose rivets
15th Oct 2008, 07:50
Yes, tough one that. But I have the solution. All actors playing parts that require the dog's name to be spoken, should be black.


Sorted.

denis555
15th Oct 2008, 08:00
I understand the new Dambusters film will not be at all interested in historical accuracy.




Hey this is Hollywoodland not history.

I expect AVM Bomber Harris to be played by Morgan Freeman and Angelina Jolie playing Barnes Wallis.

"I've been bouncing my balls along the tank all night!"

McDoo
15th Oct 2008, 08:01
Ah, the famous Tuskegee Dambusters! Well if the Septics can re-shoot the Italian Job in LA........

Loose rivets
15th Oct 2008, 08:16
Morgan Freeman comes in stage left.

"And what do you intend to call these bouncing bombs, Barnes?"

Angelina turns from the diagram on the blackboard, thrusts her chest out and pouts.

"I thought Bazombas sounded descriptive enough. What do you think?"

corsair
15th Oct 2008, 08:20
It's relatively easy, script wise. If the dog features at all. He'll be be just 'the dog' or 'dog' or 'boy'.

I think the real problem is whether or not they are going to portray Gibson as the complex character he really was or as a rather bland 'jolly good fellow'. Time will tell.

Captain Stable
15th Oct 2008, 08:26
Not to mention "Life on Mars" in LA with Harvey Keitel as DCI Gene Hunt for Chrissakes... :rolleyes: :ugh: :*

"You're an overweight, over-the-hill, nicotine-stained, borderline alcoholic homophobe with a superiority complex and an unhealthy obsession with male bonding".
"You make that sound like a bad thing.")

Top Gene Hunt quotes:-

“You great… soft… sissy… girlie… nancy… French… bender… Man United supporting POOF!”
“I think she’s as fake as a tranny’s fanny.”
“Drugs, eh? What’s the point. They make you forget, make you talk funny, make you see things that aren’t there. My old grandma got all of that for free when she had a stroke.”
“What I call a dream involves Diana Dors and a bottle of chip oil!”
“He’s got fingers in more pies than a leper on a cookery course.”
“She’s as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.”
“Now. Yesterday’s shooting. The dealers are all so scared we’re more likely to get Helen Keller to talk. The Paki in a coma’s about as lively as Liberace’s dick when he’s looking at a naked woman, all in all this investigation’s going at the speed of a spastic in a magnet factory.”
“There will never be a woman prime minister as long as I have a hole in my arse.”
Sorry about the thread drift.

Back on theme - U571 had to beat everything for Hollywood lack of any authenticity, historical accuracy or anything but a fairy story. Fully expect Dambusters to be a total waste of time and money.

denis555
15th Oct 2008, 08:32
"I thought Bazombas sounded descriptive enough. What do you think?"
:) LR!

Seriously though I doubt this film will actually be made - or like the "Memphis Belle" be so rewritten (from RAF to USAAF)and cast ( to appeal to teenagers in the US ) as to be unrecognisable.

As to the complexities of Gibson's charecter - they will just cut his lines and give him a pipe to smoke to signify all of that...

ORAC
15th Oct 2008, 08:56
I just wish they'd make a wartime mvie with the majority of the cast the right age; mainly 18 and 19 year old aircrew with the odd "granddad" in his thirties. Hell, even Gibson as a Wing Commander was only in his mid-twenties.

Gibson is knocked for being a ruthless philandering barsteward; well a lot of guys in their mid-twenties are like that, especially when they know they could die tomorrow.

Memphis Belle is the only one to really get it right.

Wod
15th Oct 2008, 09:28
We're in danger of getting a bit precious here.

I thoroughly enjoyed "The Dambusters", Richard Todd was a fine, cinematic, Gibson.

But I do recognise that it had elements of propaganda mixed with hero puffing. It is cinema after all - entertainment always manipulates inconvenient or boring realities.

And I agree with ORAC about the ages of the participants.

"Nigger" is almost certainly an unnecessary distraction in this day and age. "Nidge" will do me.

What is being proposed is not a documentary.

denis555
15th Oct 2008, 09:29
Memphis Belle is the only one to really get it right.


I would agree that they emphasised the young age of the crew ( although was that a sop to mid-west teenagers? ) which was refreshing. the age of the cast was between 24 - 29 by my reckoning.

I'm sure that I read that Putnam origionally sketched the screenplay
to feature a young RAF Lancaster crew - but the US changed it to feature the Memphis Belle instead.

It seems that it was a flop - considered an old-fashioned throwback by 1990's filmgoers.

dakkg651
15th Oct 2008, 09:31
That's the only bit they did get right!

crisso
15th Oct 2008, 11:16
Will we now get told-off for colloquially referring to Black people as 'Nidgers'....?;)

Howard Hughes
15th Oct 2008, 11:24
Nidge? sounds like something from a Monty Python movie to me, nidge nidge nidge nidge...;)

wiggy
15th Oct 2008, 11:30
Rumour has it that the template for "Memphis Belle" was Len Deighton's "Bomber", about an RAF night raid, but for cine...cinemat...a *******, 'cos it's difficult to film in the dark the plot was switched to an American daylight raid with a smattering of the real Memphis Belle story thrown in.

As for the age issue the only film I can think of where you get some impression of them being 'kids' is some of the actors on the beach in "...Ryan". Then again looking at real WW2 pictures the young men and women look somewhat older than perhaps they should...probably not suprising.

denis555
15th Oct 2008, 12:42
Bomber would make a film that i would enjoy, not so sure that it would be a commercial success though ( not in the US at any rate ) so I suppose the americanisation was a better bet.

Bomber would have been a true epic with all the RAF, Luftwaffe and german civillian scenes - phew!

Track Coastal
15th Oct 2008, 12:53
We're in danger of getting a bit precious here.

I thoroughly enjoyed "The Dambusters", Richard Todd was a fine, cinematic, Gibson.

But I do recognise that it had elements of propaganda mixed with hero puffing. It is cinema after all - entertainment always manipulates inconvenient or boring realities.

And I agree with ORAC about the ages of the participants.

"Nigger" is almost certainly an unnecessary distraction in this day and age. "Nidge" will do me.

What is being proposed is not a documentary.


Have always held a WODs word in some esteem. From days of "yes sir. Whatever sir" to the big jump and "yes, I will get a new garrison cap, Mr xxxx thanks for the advice and the compliments".

Deighton's Bomber was a fine book. Read "Goodbye Mickey Mouse".

FlyingOfficerKite
15th Oct 2008, 13:06
I'm surprised, in this day and age, with computer graphics that they need to use real aeroplanes at all?!

The days of the obvious 'cardboard cutouts' that used to cross the screen in droves are long gone.

If we can be convinced that we can walk with dinosaursa and journey to the stars, I'm surprised we can't be convinced of flying with Gibson! Maybe it's the cost?

As for the dog - why have the dog in the film at all or mention its name at all? If it has to have a part why not just say 'here boy', 'anyone seen my dog?' or 'sorry your dog's been killed'. No need for historical inaccuracy nor offence.

FOK :)

sitigeltfel
15th Oct 2008, 13:28
They could always copy this idea from Blazing Saddles :mad:

YouTube - Blazing Saddles - The Sheriff Is A...(DONG) (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W2fRSQ4L-SI)

Der absolute Hammer
15th Oct 2008, 14:23
Until just now, these were known in Germany as Niger Kisses.
Perhaps I try to send Obama a box if he wins.
http://www.storck.com/inet_superglobal/images/logo.gif
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http://www.storck.com/en/headlines/40-80_index.php.jpg
Since 1985 Super Dickmann's has been the biggest among the chocolate foam kisses.

Who doesn't know the slogan "Man, they are Dickmann"? Under this motto Super Dickmann's from Storck quickly became Germany's most popular chocolate foam kiss.

Mini Dickmann's was then introduced in 1990. These products are also enjoyed by people in some neighboring European countries.

In 1997 CocoCabana added a hint of Caribbean flair in Germany.

Since the launch of "sugarfree Dickmann's" in September 2006 you have been able to enjoy the light foam kisses with 30% less calories.

http://www.storck.com/imperia/md/images/inet_com_storck/teaser_dickmanns_content_en.jpg (http://www.dickmanns.de/)

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But if you Google Edersee on Earth, it may be intersting to see exactly how difficult the bombing run was. The land height between Jugendherberge and Landhotel Edersee, to north of lake is mucu higher than it looks. Thus I think the bombers had to come in from east and west and then down the ack ack gauntlet. A very amazing piece of flying.

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MagnusP
15th Oct 2008, 14:27
FlyingOfficerKite wrote:

The days of the obvious 'cardboard cutouts' that used to cross the screen in droves are long gone.

What?? Keira Knightley has retired? Nobody told me. :E

sitigeltfel
15th Oct 2008, 15:03
This advert caused a bit of controversy at the time and I'm sure no disrespect towards those who took part was intended...

YouTube - Classic Carling Black Label (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dWZVDiVvKsg)

Jetex Jim
15th Oct 2008, 15:07
Deighton's 'Bomber' is a wonderful book, and some scenes, the Luftwaffe nightfighter ops room, for example, would look excellent on the big screen. But the whole story is just too big for a movie. Better to do it as a TV mini series and give all participants proper coverage.

Dambusters. You can't just refer to the dog. In the original movie, Nigger is the code sent when the first dam is breached -- 'It's Nigger, its Nigger', cue smiles all round.

Der absolute Hammer
15th Oct 2008, 15:15
Very funny that was sitigeltfel. I send it to a few Prussians I know!
Maybe strange to say, they will love it.

TURIN
15th Oct 2008, 15:17
As has been stated on another thread, Stephen Fry has written a screenplay for this film. I can't imagine he would ruin it as he expressed a great love of the original film and holds in high regard the young men, women (& animals) who sacrificed themselves in the name of king, country and freedom. Let's give it a chance eh? :ok:

Farmer 1
15th Oct 2008, 15:17
As for the dog - why have the dog in the film at all or mention its name at all? If it has to have a part why not just say 'here boy', 'anyone seen my dog?' or 'sorry your dog's been killed'. No need for historical inaccuracy nor offence.

"Nigger" was the codeword for the breaching of the Moehne dam. Using a different word would not be historically accurate. I know this is Hollywood, but it is a film about a real event and real people. I suppose it's a case of why let the facts spoil a good film - or a rubbish one?

Captain Stable
15th Oct 2008, 15:26
it is a film about a real event and real peopleVery true - many of them still alive and able to be offended at liberties being taken with the risks they took.

A good acquaintance of mine is a former Lanc pilot - not 617, but married to a woman who used to be Gibson's driver. He was aghast when I told him Hollywood was remaking the film.

The original was a film for its time - not accurate in the least, but true to the spirit of what the dams raid was attempting. I would like its successor to be more accurate to what actually went on - what Gibson was really like (arrogant, instantly dislikeable), the effect the dams raid had on German steel production (negligible), the effect it had on civilian residents of the Ruhr (devastating) and the workers from the slave camps who had to clean it up.

That said, the dams raid was spectacular, very daring, a rare feat of airmanship and courage and the result of a lot of hard work by a genius of an engineer and inventor.

larssnowpharter
15th Oct 2008, 15:30
The Dambusters Raid was one of the great feats of the RAF in WW2. It is a truly great story of personal heroism and sacrifice. The first film was a 'must watch'; I have a copy on DVD and it comes out occasionally.

One suspects that - inevitably - this new version will be compared with the old. Many will decide that it will not have met their expectations as they will expect an accurate - historical - representation of the facts. Sorry. Films are not that way. They have to tell a story in a couple of hours that evolved over many months. That's the nature of the medium.

Personally, I wish the director and cast well and hope that they come up with a decent product that will tell the story.

As regards Gibson, wouldn't a 'biopic' of him make a great film?

Firestorm
15th Oct 2008, 15:36
I don't know why we really need a new version of it. The original is a fabulous film, as someone has already said, and if you get so offended by them changing the name of a dog, don't go and see it. We all know that the dog was called Nigger, and you can't change that anymore than you can change the fact that Nigger was a black labrador. It beats me as to why so many people get so up tight. I shall stick to watching the old Nige and Honk version of the film!

denis555
15th Oct 2008, 15:43
Len Deighton's Bomber was made into a BBC Radio play in *I think* eight parts. The BBC has it on CD - play time is 3hrs 40mins

BladePilot
15th Oct 2008, 16:40
Billy Connolly famous for crying "Get tae Fu' ya Basa'" would probably just call the dog 'igger:)

henry crun
15th Oct 2008, 22:32
Peter Jackson, the director, is an aviation enthusiast, and, as has been mentioned, Stephen Fry is writing the script.

I suggest that all you who are so scathingly referring to a Hollywood remake wait and see the the new film is like.

Ogre
16th Oct 2008, 03:20
While I agree with the concensus of "lets see how the film turns out", I can forsee one problem straight away.

How will Hollywood deal with the fact that for years every actor with a British accent has been portrayed as the villian? Or rather every nasty piece of work has a British accent? (and before anyone starts, it's not always BBC english, Christopher Ecclestone in "gone in 60 seconds" was at his Northern best)

Oh and how many more female parts will be in the remake, I can't remember there being many characters of the female persuasion in the original other than BW's wife and the WAAF handing out the cocoa.

con-pilot
16th Oct 2008, 03:28
If you folks are so unhappy with Hollywood movies, make your own.

Oh, I forgot..............

kluge
16th Oct 2008, 04:05
And what could possibly be wrong with a Bollywood version of the Dambusters ?

The theme tune could lend itself nicely to coordinated dancing troops of scantily clad nubile WAAFs.

Track Coastal
16th Oct 2008, 04:28
Oh, I forgot..............
What did you forget?

The brits make damn good movies.

If ignorance be bliss, you'd be a orgiastically happy fellow.

West Coast
16th Oct 2008, 05:22
MADE good movies

cars

airplanes

major mil ships

etc

denis555
16th Oct 2008, 08:17
If you folks are so unhappy with Hollywood movies, make your own.


For "Hollywood" please read "the film industry"

But the inference is ,


Movies cost money
Movies have to make money
It would be nice to keep movies as historically accurate as possible.Therefore it's a battle between point 2 and point 3 - with point 2 being by far the stronger motive naturally.

George Clooney as Guy Gibson anyone?:uhoh:

Blacksheep
16th Oct 2008, 08:27
The Ops room. Midnight approaches. Strained faces, nobody talks. The clock ticks. Barnes Wallis paces nervously chewing his fingernails. Suddenly the wall mounted speaker crackles into life and a voice (here you must imagine Peter Sellers / Eccles) breaks through the static.

"Nidge!"

Captain Stable
16th Oct 2008, 08:28
Little Jim: "He's fallen in the water......." ;)

<Sound of huge explosion>

Bloodnok: "Ohhhhhhh - it's the curry, you know."

denis555
16th Oct 2008, 09:22
Apparently Gibson did call his dog 'Nidge' for short... according to Sir David Frost who, rather oddly, owns the film rights now.

Gainesy
16th Oct 2008, 09:50
And I've seen it described as: "A large black mutt, mainly Labrador, with a white chest. It liked deflating bicycle tyres with one bite".

Farmer 1
16th Oct 2008, 10:15
A large black mutt

I'm sure you're not allowed to say the "b" word, either.

As for "large", no doubt a lot of people who are not that would probably find the term offensive.

And "mutt" - well, that should be banned outright.


Just trying to keep in with the spirit of the film, chaps.

Lancelot37
16th Oct 2008, 10:22
Typical of the P.C world bastardising the English language once again. I call the person who Chairs a meeting the Chairman whether male or female. I’ll call a homo a puff, queer, shirt lifter or whatever I want as that is what they have been know for generations.
As for changing the name of a dog from its original to something different, well, it beats me.

ExSp33db1rd
16th Oct 2008, 10:28
Wuff ! Wuff !

capewrath
16th Oct 2008, 10:36
I recall seeing a pic in a book of a memorial stone in RAF Scampton with Nigger's name on it and maybe also 617 sdn crest.
Does that still exist?

capewrath
16th Oct 2008, 10:43
Just found this:-

RAF Scampton - Museum Gallery (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafscampton/aboutus/museumgallery.cfm?viewmedia=2)

Widger
16th Oct 2008, 10:51
The most discraceful example of Hollywood inaccuracy was in Master and Commander, when the crew of Surprise were chasing a French ship. In the book, it was not French but American, that is why when the sailor brings the Captain a model he say's "She's Yankee built".....I mean....Bloomin liberty!

Der absolute Hammer
16th Oct 2008, 11:04
It is three months since I was at the Edersee, walking on dam wall.
If a new film is made then the producers must make more attention of the approaches to the dam.
Whatever one thinks of how useless it was, how many Lancasters destroyed and how many innocent people smashed up, it was extraordinary excercise in flying ability. The distance from the high ground to the north is very close to the dam so the Lancasters have to come down the branches of the river.
The credits goes to Barnes Wallis and the Fliegers and, of course, to Carling.
Maybe a small mention to the good shooting of the horrible Hun. Eight out of the nineteen Lancasters of 617Sqd was not bad - with respects of course.

Gainesy
16th Oct 2008, 11:45
Seven, I think. Didn't one hit power lines in Holland?

Lancelot37
16th Oct 2008, 13:01
Are you serious?

>>"Nigger" is almost certainly an unnecessary distraction in this day and age. "Nidge" will do me.<<

It doesn't take much to distract you. And you flew aircraft?

Captain Stable
17th Oct 2008, 10:19
capewrath - take a look at http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/202088-guy-gibsons-dog-2.html#post2263426 from XXTSGR. A couple of details escaped him, such as the fact that it wasn't the Officer's Mess but #2 Hangar and the peri track rather than the A1, but I suspect it gives the truth otherwise about Nigger's grave.

Zoom
17th Oct 2008, 11:20
If you folks are so unhappy with Hollywood movies, make your own.

A reasonable point, but aren't there about 10 billion other notable historical events - even some American ones - that Hollywood can make a pig's ear of instead?

Jetex Jim
17th Oct 2008, 11:46
MADE good movies

cars

airplanes

major mil ships

etc


All things must pass, even the once proud American commitment to a free market financial sector.

simon brown
17th Oct 2008, 13:52
I can see it now, stock footage of B52s flying low over the Hoover Dam whilst Tom Cruise asks for another booster cushion to sit on

er340790
17th Oct 2008, 14:00
Was working in Dortmund in '94 and made a trip out to see the Moehnesee Dam. Very evocative and a powerful reminder of just how skilled and brave those guys were. Zero mention of the raid on all the local info / signage etc, despite the still-evident rebuilding of the entire dam centre section.

I know it's very un-PC, but with the raid now almost out of human memory, the image of just one low-pass over the Dam by the BoB Lancaster for history's sake would be quite something.

Re the film, either do it right or don't do it at all. If necessary stick a notice on the trailer that the N-Word was commonly used in different contexts at that time. Just watched one movie where 90% of the cast were calling each other 'nigga' throughout for christsakes.

Wader2
17th Oct 2008, 14:22
Barnes Wallis paces nervously chewing his fingernails.

I hope we don't get a Michael Redgrave lookalike.

Michael Kitchen perhaps? They need someone about 5ft 6, good head of hair and probably grey even then.

deltahotel
17th Oct 2008, 16:38
Enjoyed watching the original in Cologne hotel couple of years ago - dubbed into German. And guess what the dog was called .........

Der absolute Hammer
17th Oct 2008, 16:45
............Blondie?

denis555
17th Oct 2008, 16:46
Enjoyed watching the original in Cologne hotel couple of years ago - dubbed into German. And guess what the dog was called .........


dunno ... Neger?:ooh:

fitliker
17th Oct 2008, 17:51
The world changed when they took the gollywog off the jam jars:E

er340790
17th Oct 2008, 19:39
AchtungSchwartzkopfHund! ???