CX Local/Expat Scale, how does it work?

[BNEHKG9]

Hello
I'm in my last year of school and have been heavily contemplating a career in aviation. On a thread in the Fragrant Harbour forum, i read about what LEPs are feeling with regard to benefits/pay. I recently met a CX F/O of a local HK background, who joined CX as a DESO and was put onto a local payscale, with no housing or anything of the sort.

I still have a Hong Kong ID despite years of living down under. If I trained and did some grubby work to build up my hours and joined as a DESO or DEFO, would i be discriminated against aswell because of my HKID or.....was this instance I experienced a rare situation?

Any helpful/constructive replies answering or discussing this would be appreciated.

Chuz,
BNEHKG9

[SMOC]

If you can avoid the Cadet program do, don't let the excitement of shiny jets and the initial $$$ blind you, as once your in on local terms and realise that a 3rd year S/O can get paid more than you as a Local Captain (10 years down the track) due to the far superior expat package.

The other option is join the cadet program with the intention of leaving once you have 500 hours on the 777/A330 as a JF/O, that will probably be 4-5 years down the track.

Try and use those 4-5 years to get flying training and experience elsewhere then join as a direct entry F/O.

I promise you, you will kick yourself time and time again for not going down the expat route and will probably leave once you try to have a family on local terms.

Don't even mention the HKID bit, CX will try and shaft you a shove you on local terms if they can.

[BNEHKG9]

Thanks for the great reply SMOC, very much appreciated.

[404 Titan]

BNEHKG9

CX sponsors expats for their HK work permit. It will become very obvious very quickly that you have an existing HKID card if you try and hide it once they put in the paper work to the immigration department.

[Lowspirited]

i thought they have to put you on expat if you basically don't live in HK? what about people who have been overseas for 20 years and apply for CX? would almost make no sense to join CX if u end up on local terms just for having a HKID. i know some ppl doing their training overseas, but in that case they'll only have a HKID and not another passport, then of course they'd have to be considered a local

[SMOC]

To put it simply if you join the CX cadet program you will be on local terms, however CX has hired directly onto local terms, so if you have a HKID it's ok just don't use it as a potential ace up your sleeve to get the job, otherwise CX may use it as an ace up their sleeve to put you on local terms.

If you can get flying training without joining the cadet program do, the expat conditions are 100 times better :ok:

[TGIG]

HKID + other passport = local

[ROO-C26B]

Guys & Girls,

If you hold a HKID you can't hide it from CX as they will check through immigration. No matter how you argue the point that you should be on the expat terms they will put you on the local terms period. The difference in pay disparity is huge & you will regret it a few years down the track. It happened to me they offered the local terms and in an uncertain terms it implies that you either take it or leave it. In a polite way I told CX to stick it. Just because I hold a HKID and I don't live in HK why than I have to be disadventage and discriminate compared to someone from abroad. CX is a disgrace.:yuk::=

[Noskcid]

Lowspirited

Making sense of not if really a personal thing, for me some ppl may say its stupid, but my choice is CX, yes Im applying for the cadet program but even If I already have a licence I would still choose CX. I haven't applied for any other cadet schemes cause I simply dont want to fly for those carriers eg. SQ, QF etc.. I dont know how to explain it, even after hearing all the bad things about it I hasn't changed my mind. But if your for the $$ then yeah abviously choose who ever pays the best :).

[Lowspirited]

Noskcid

You really sound like a classmate of mine, may i ask if you're 18-20 years old? (i know for sure you're not my classmate due to a discrepency in english level) His justification sounds like yours, except in reality all it means is he and maybe you as well, does not want to take the long road from PPL->CPL->some form of regional/charter/instructing -> apply for airlines. So his justification is if he wants to be a pilot, CX is his only choice, so no matter how poor the terms are, its his only goal. Sure a cadet place is the easy way to join an airline, but the question is at what expense.

Of course being born in HK means if you have any patriotism in your blood, you'd prefer to fly for CX rather than SQ/QF/BA or whatever airline you can think of in the world. But just remember, a few years after you start flying for an airline and you get over the fact that you're just flying between 2 destinations and not a "top gun" doing overpasses at 50' you still have yourself to feed, and possibly a family. Sitting in a cockpit where a pilot junior to you could possibly be paid almost twice as much as you might start sinking in, when you wife wants a new house :E

Just out of curiosity, the FTA+cadet program explcitly stated upon joining CX after 4 years of instructing you'll be on expat scale, or is there yet another exception for holding a HKID?

[EPASZ]

I always wonder about this grey area...its good that some of yas actually discuss about this. Because im planning to come back to Hong Kong once i get the hours i need flying in the Mainland. Looks like i know what to expect now...might choose a different path then....some place where i wont get disadvantage and discriminate just because i have a HKID. It is really sad for people like us who are building their hours with sweat, just to find out they are going to be put on local terms when they apply CX or Dragon.

So does anyone actually know somebody who won an expat contract with HKID? Is there really no hope?

[N1 Vibes]

Most groundstaff employees taken on with CX who come from any where in the Asia region are offered local contracts. This is most definitely not HKID specific, but far more general. I'm guessing that the same discrimination exists in flt ops....comments anyone?

[EPASZ]

Hey check ur PM mate :)

[newty74]

who'z got CX's pay scales and benefits packages? or can direct me to them? e.g. Local/Expat/Foreign based...etc etc

[maserati6888]

Hi..this might sound a little too much to ask.. but better know then ignorance!
any difference if I'm holding a Hong Kong Permanent Identity Card or HKID,...
is it the same ?
Rgds.
Mike

[yamair]

Hi Guys,

Could we (HKID*** + foreign passport holders) declare / give up HKID / citizenship? Then we have no other nationality but whatever the foreign passport say. I'm willing to do this if it means I can get on expat pay!

[CathayBrat]

Was born in HKG, had a HKID card untill i was 18, but because we had then been based in the UK, never got it renewed. Does this make me a local or an expat? Just wondering as am putting my papers in for cx soon and dont want to get shaf@*d by mgt due to being born there and not living there for the last 15 years.
Cheers

[Noskcid]

Firstly I dont know if you can give up a HKID, and also if you are apply for cadetship min req. is also you must hold a HK ID.

If you are born in HK and haven lived in HK for the last 40yrs ur still seem as a local, that is unless u have a few 1000 hrs n apply DESO,DEFO, then thats a diff story

[yamair]

Thanks Noskcid. Direct entry is what I'm referring to (not cadets). Does anyone know any cases for DE being forced to take a local contract (terms)? And what did they do (took it or left it)?

[ROO-C26B]

It doesn't matter whether you hold an HKID or not with your surname in Chinese and look like a CHinese/Asian you will be on the local terms. It happened to one of my mates who never hold a HKID was offered on the local terms. So whatever angle you're going to appraoach it with a Chinese surname you sure automatically on the local terms.

Cheers, Happy huntering. :ugh:

[yamair]

http://www.eoc.org.hk/EOC/OtherProject/rdo/COP_RDO_E.pdf

[EPASZ]

I doubt CX will offer expat terms even though i was born in Australia...simply because i also hold an HKID and are of asian race. CX could safe millions in ur entire career on local terms since we are the one looking to work for them...and they are in no short of expat pilot applications...But u could think that if u apply as a local DESO u could have a better chance of employment...

[Jambe]

to reiterate a question earlier, what is the payscale for a SO just come out of the Cadet scheme? and how long do yoou have to work for them to 'pay back' the trainings?

What other allowance do you get for a SO ??

[Voiceofreason]

Just to be very clear to the original poster:

There is absolutely NO difference in salary between a local and an expat. The difference kicks in when it comes to other benefits. Locals do not get any provision for education and a different scheme for housing. Local captains still get some housing allowance (not nearly as much, but some).

So, if you are to compare the entire package, admittedly, it is a sizeable difference, but purely salary, there is none.

[ColonialFlyer]

This one issue that CX must fix/ the union must challenge. It is surely very demoralising for the local aircrew.

In my humble opinion, HR can only TRY to force one to sign a local contract. One can always decline the offer and demand an expat's. Supposingly, if you are flying for an airline and go for a CX interview, you can always go back to your job.

Let's play bluff!

[cxhk]

Yamair:

The New Discrimination law won't come into play until late 2009. The law pretty much sums up the fact that expat terms will become illegal provided that both local and expat are performing the same job. However, if a company can not hired any qualified candidates locally, they can still offer expat package to overseas workers. In such cases, the said company will need to prove that such workers can not be hired locally. For the case of pilots at CX, CX can say they are unable to hire any qualified candidates because there is almost no pilot pool in HK. However, CX cadet are not CX employees during training, therefore they become suitable candidates after their training. So when they sign their contract with CX in HK (after their training), CX can not legally offer them local terms starting late 2009. At that point, I will assume CX will need to provide equal terms to all NEW HK based pilot (either expat or Cadet candidate). However, the law has a grandfather causes which offer protection to any company with existing contracts. Hence, exisiting local pilot at CX will not be protected by this new law. There is a grey area about this, for example, if an existing local pilot decided to sign onto COS08 after this new law comes into play, they are theoritically on a new contract (hence they can not be offered local terms). This however can be argue in court. Also CX can offer employment to cadet at the begining of their training (ie: offer them a senoirty number and offer the a proper salary starting at the begining of their training), this way, cadets will not be qualified pilot at the time of employment and therefore local terms can be offered. Again, there is more grey area, if CX really decided to offer cadets seniority at the begining of their training, cadet can aruge they are no different then CX instructor course candidates at the time of their hired. Hence, if CX offer those on the instructor course expat package, they will have to offer them to cadets as well. However, all solutions will run into complications with AOA with regards to seniority and also what pay scale will cadets recieve during their training, etc... All in all, it will be a fun times once this law comes into play. You will definitly see a lot of complain coming from exisiting local pilots as well. If AOA decided to get involve in this, I can see the AOA membership for local pilots on the raise starting late 2009. So a lot of trouble ahead at CX, that's for sure.

CXHK

[scooby79]

Does it matter that the cadets would not get a job at CX with the experience they had after the cadet course if they applied for a DESO job? I think it is still around the 3000 hour mark with turboprop or jet time to get in as an expat DESO. Most guys seem to have about 7 or so years flying experience. I can understand guys with a HKID card and the required experience for DESO having to go on expat terms.

[yamair]

Thanks CXHK for your comprehensive commentary. It will be interesting times for all concerned.

HAPPY 2009!!!

[bhkb]

Hello boys!

I'm new to the site. Great read so far on this issue. The new discrimination law looks similar to what Canada has at the moment.

I'm also going to apply for the cadet pilot programme real soon once I finish my PPL (10 more hours).

I think at this stage, I'm more concerned about getting an opportunity to fly for a big airline company and CX seems to fit that for me.

Does anyone know if there will be another screening date after Jan 09? I know there is one happening this month but seeing how there is a global crisis occuring, I'm worried there may not be another one until next year 2010.

Anyways, all the best for you and your family for 2009.

[forever_beachboy]

Well here is the truth, I have been given 2 options from CX which are the instructor short course and the local cadet program. CX confirmed they will give me expat terms if I join the short course even tho I hold HKID, so just go for whatever you think is good for you, just remind you that CX already stopped hiring direct entry only cadet is still going on.

[craigbell]

Hey Beachboy, check your messages please, thanks.