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View Full Version : No show pax bag offload regs


rolandpull
10th Oct 2008, 16:06
Guys, I have been asked to find out where the `rule` is written that no show pax bags have to be offloaded. Any takers? Ta.

Schmoogle
10th Oct 2008, 18:13
Depends who you work for and how the rules are written within your own company manual. My company specifies that pax who no show at the gate at STD minus 10 minutes are denied travel, this also includes special assistance pax who have'nt been delivered to the A/C or gate in time.

no sig
10th Oct 2008, 18:54
Your airline should have it's own Aviation Security Programme in which will be defined your security principles and procedures. But, the basis of this is the UK's National Aviation Security Programme, usually know as NASP and also the Aviation Security Act 1982 and a few others. The airline's responsibilty to ensure the safety of its passengers are defined in these documents- and you will find the answer to your question in the above.

However, the reason bags MUST be off loaded for a no-show passenger is blindingly obvious given the security threats aviation faces; but with respect to the specific rules covering this- you'll also discover that there is a specifically defined procedure covering the carraige of unaccompanied baggage which would have to met before a bag can be loaded and travel without the passenger being on board. This requirement alone, would lead to an offload of the bags of a no-show. Usually, additional screening, x-ray and or hand searchs are required for an unaccompanied bag and they must be manifested as such.

The bottom line is that the bags of a no-show passenger must always be offloaded before departure- no exceptions- ever!

Leezyjet
10th Oct 2008, 19:51
The bottom line is that the bags of a no-show passenger must always be offloaded before departure- no exceptions- ever!

Unless you happen to be in the USofA where they will happily send your bags on without you being on the flight. You would think after Lockerbie, being one of their a/c that was the target they would have learned, but no, not even 11/09 changed that part either !!

:eek:

rolandpull
13th Oct 2008, 17:26
Thanks for the input chaps. I am somewhere non standard, with a security structure of sorts. Just after that snippet of info to tie up a few quality management issues. I know the rule, but need something to wave under peoples noses............:D

no sig
13th Oct 2008, 20:41
rollandpull

You might also dig into the ICAO standards and protocols on Aviation Security if you're not UK based and still need something to use. Do a search on ICAO AVSEC and you'll find a bunch of stuff that might be useful.

goth_babe4000
14th Oct 2008, 17:23
yeah we start offloading pax at -10, and pass bag tag numbers at -10, then its the captains decision to offload. however with servisair we have to offload bags for no show pax because bags cannot travel unnatebded unless they are rush bags and been proply screened. im sure this is the case for most airlines though aswell

mathers_wales_uk
14th Oct 2008, 19:43
Each airline has their own policies regarding the time you start looking for any no-show bags. For instance each airline has their own Gate Closure before departure time and it as that point they expect you to start looking for the bags.

It could be a -15 and usually it isn't practical to do so as you haven't received clearence in some lo-cost airlines.

If you are UK based then all you need is the information on "Triple A" and that is more than what you require on process of unnacompanied luggage traveling by Air.

It is not correct that the Captain has the final say as they sometimes decide to wait for passengers. It is the Appointed Person/Dispatcher role to ensure the Safety of Passengers and an on-time departure. As soon as luggage is located and brought off the aircraft then all paperwork should be finalized and passengers should be offloaded.

fivegreenlight
14th Oct 2008, 20:30
Mathers, I think you'll find the Capt does have the final say.:=
I can offload the bags if I feel I have good reason ie. no shows,
or I can wait, if I feel there is good reason to, ie. info that pax are stuck at security or waiting for special assistance.
An on time departure slips down the list of priority if there are other issues
over pax or technical , despite the dispatchers desire for an on time departure.

Departures Beckham
14th Oct 2008, 21:03
I think we're straying off at two different angles here. To summarise:

The decision as to whether pax are to be accepted and when they are to be offloaded varies by airline/handler. This is a commercial decision.

The decision as to whether hold baggage is accepted for travel will vary by country. In the UK this responsibility lies with the Appointed Person (most commonly the dispatcher). This is a requirement of the NASP.

5552N0426W
19th Oct 2008, 12:29
In UK if you adhere to the clauses of Triple A (AAA) as laid down by the Regulatory Authorities, it's very plain.

You're the "Appointed Person" responsible and your signature on the release.

Take care.

:ok:

Skipness One Echo
20th Oct 2008, 00:49
Possibly being thick but if there is any issue that a bag on board is a danger to flight safety why was it loaded in the first place? My understanding is that all hold baggage is screened to a DFT standard and the fact that the owner isn't on board is in itself not a safety risk.

The lesson learned in the USA as the chap above aludes to, is that the TSA screens all hold baggage and it is therefore safe to send it ahead of me if I miss my connection.

Departures Beckham
20th Oct 2008, 16:02
Hold baggage screening is not 100% effective, therefore baggage must be offloaded if the owner is no-show at the gate as it has a perceived increased risk. The AAA code of practice was written some time ago, when suicide bombing wasn't as popular as it is today.

chrystall
20th Oct 2008, 18:48
dft regulations put in place post lockerbie is your answer!!:)

chrystall
20th Oct 2008, 18:51
captain does not have the final word re offloads!! dispatcher controls the flight until you "present the paperwork" - the responsibility is entirely with the ground crew and the capt has no input unless a delay is likely.....his aircraft "his office" our terminal!!! he might have a say on what goes on his aircraft but we have the control on who leaves our building lol!!!

super737
20th Oct 2008, 19:23
IMHO offloading bags is a must if pax dont show to the gate. Ive seen the wrong bags be offloaded and also aircraft return to ramp due to luggage. Regarding the expedite baggage a NOTOC must be issued to the PIC who as I understand can refuse to carry the bag in the hold for any reason but havent seen a skipper do it yet.

Capt Wannabe
20th Oct 2008, 20:56
NOTOC for expedite baggage :confused:

Surely this depends on the airline. Never issued one myself for an EXP :ok:

draughtsman99
20th Oct 2008, 23:35
If baggage must be offloaded for 'no shows' how does baggage left behind get transported. I only ask because my wife and I managed to get to Australia without our bags ( 7 days for for mine and 10 for hers!!). Then on the way back 3 and 4 days to get it home after us.
It had not been opened (seals in place) so how did they know it was OK?
Should add - this was good old BA weeks before T5 opened.

mathers_wales_uk
21st Oct 2008, 00:31
A notoc is not required for Expedite Baggage, all is required is an unaccompanied baggage manifest which has the signature of the Security Operative which has completed the extensive screening process to allow the luggage to travel.

There are 5 screening methods available for expedite baggage but some airports only have 3 methods.

In smaller airports such as Cardiff they screen the expedite baggage on 2 separate angles.

A copy of the unaccompanied baggage manifest has to remain on station for 7 days along with the Triple A, Bag Tag Manifest, Crew Bag Manifest and Unaccompanied Mail Manifest.

A separate copy must be handed to the flight deck and must be commented on the Loadsheet.

It is a simple rule that no bag can travel without its owner unless it has gone through extensive screening, it was brought in by DFT (UK) after lockerbie bombing. What you have to bear in mind is that a passenger may have not turned up to the gate and had a bag checked in with malicious intent. It is better to prevent than to take the risk.

Skipness One Echo
21st Oct 2008, 00:57
Yeah I get that I just don't get why screening it before it gets on the plane isn't more reliable. A jihadi is quite happy to die onboard so I am concerned to say the least that the bag isn't screened to a standard where it no longer causes concern. What's the big deal stealing all the water from us at security if the hold luggage isn't confidently screened? The US are security paranoid and they allow unaccompanied bags to travel. Lockerbie was 20 years ago, one assumes technology has moved on.

mathers_wales_uk
21st Oct 2008, 01:09
I am not sure how the screening proccess works for luggage sent down from check-in before it reaches baggage sortation but i'm it does get screened or at least theres an operative watching the x-ray images of all luggage and anything remotley suspicious then gets flagged up and thrown out where it undergoes a screening similar to the unnacompanied luggage.

If they still can't see what the item is then they will call the passenger down so that they take a look in their bag.

There are non common sense issues with security i agree such as Airside Personel may not carry liquids through security even though that person maybe in charge of ensuring the safety af the aircraft or maintaining the aircraft and know that if they wish to do something meliciouse the it's easy enough to do so with a tin of soup/yougart etc or not.

Why should staff have to pay inflated fees for beverages airside because DFT would not allow them to take a drink to work. I wonder if a case would be viable of a staff member taking the DFT to court over having skin cancer after repeated exposure the sun as he is unable to take his sun tan oceon through security. (i know thats a bit daft but there could be other examples too)

super737
21st Oct 2008, 23:46
In regards to replies regarding issuing a NOTOC for exp baggage, i feel it is better to issue the NOTOC due to the security risk. You know and I know and anyone with an understanding that to get to that point there is a paper trail regarding that bag, but at the same time I feel that not issuing a NOTOC is complacent.

It doesn't take two minutes to issue it and covers your back and gives the skipper something to do!!!

42psi
22nd Oct 2008, 19:09
Just to correct a couple of errors that have crept in from my recollection of those dim and distant days :\
Following Lockerbie the requirement for a baggage reconciliation check was introduced in the UK - baggage tagged for a flight on which the passenger failed to board was to be offloaded and not carried.

OK .. that was the intent.

This did not require any "screening/x-ray" process to be carried out on that baggage as a matter of course - at the time it was acceptable to forward it onwards either after ageing 24hrs or following the filing of a lost report. The equipment for screening did not exist/was not deployed at that time.


Anyone around the LHR T1/T2/T3 baggage areas in those years will recall the heaps of "ageing" bags that sat around!!


Many airlines in the UK failed to implement any of this at the time and there were years of wrangling which followed with the DFT/DEFTR.

For those of you who like me worked through that period how many of you can recall any widebody a/c offloading ULD's to locate bags.

The safety of bagagge for carriage continued to be based on the presumption that if the passenger travelled (or intended/wished to) then the bag was deemed "safe".

Hold baggage was not being routinely screened at that time - the equipment was not developed/deployed.



Eventually the control authorities did get their act together and started to ensure a process was followed ... this started with trying to strictly enforce the previously patchy "no unacompanied baggage travels unless screened". This is when baggage manifests etc started to appear and actually be used, baggage counts became normal and rush/unaccompanied bag carriage became recorded and x-rayed.


At this point (well before 9/11) the USA did not apply any of these rules. I can recall discussing this at the time with folks from various US carriers & FAA only to be told ... it's not relevent ... no such attacks have been carried out on US a/c within US borders ... it's outside the US that the danger exists and these rules are needed.


Many's the traveller that ended up at regional UK airports having been re-routed ex the States and told their bags would follow the original route and meet them at the final UK destination ... of course they didn't .. the bags reached first point in the UK (typically LHR/LGW) and sat there until PIR taken and followed up.




For a lighter aside I can recall a meeting with various airport/airline folks at a regional UK airport. The meeting was called by a senior UK civil servant who's every other sentance was preceeded by "what the minister requires is ..." .. he even wore a natty spotted bow tie :}

His best pronouncement of the day came when he told the assembled incredulous humble airline/airport managers present that "the minister requires ....... that each bag is not physically loaded onto an aircraft until the passenger who checked it in has actually boarded the aircraft"


Following the stunned silence it was determined he'd never heard of ULD's or thought that punctuality (in terms of operating with an hour or so of a scheduled time) might be an issue.

:ugh:







I'll stop now ... as my memories flood back it just becomes more frightening...... :E

chrystall
22nd Oct 2008, 20:10
there is absolutely no need to issue a notoc for exp - you already have a paper trail with the screening certificate from your relevant security agency to file with the triple a paperwork!!:D

mathers_wales_uk
23rd Oct 2008, 11:57
not issuing a NOTOC for experdite baggage is not complacent and is not required as standard practice. All is required is a copy of the unacompanied baggae manifest which has been signed by the security operative to say it has been screened in accordance to rules and regulations of the DFT, it also has to be noted on your "Triple A"

If you think that bag is still a security risk it would be your responsability as an Appointed Person in my eyes to remove it off an aircraft as it should not travel.

twhite1
23rd Oct 2008, 19:51
Hi my name is Ian. I was just looking through this forum section as i currently work for Servisair (Easyjet) at Liverpool and noticed some people also work for Servisair at Liverpool here. I have met quite a few operations staff and dispatchers now so some might know me for those who dont, you proberly see me walking around with my mayfly timetable looking confused lol (OJ)

Anyway, the point of this post, to just introduce myself to all those who work at Liverpool and would be great if you could reply to this comment so i could get to know people.

Hope to speak soon

kenhughes
24th Oct 2008, 00:03
42psi's post reminded me of the time I was flying out of Gibraltar to MAN - some 12 to 18 months after Lockerbie.

As we walked airside, all the pax luggage was lined up on the ramp. We had to walk over to our own luggage, touch it, or them, and then the loaders carried them to the hold.

I wondered at the time whether it was special treatment because of some alert or other. But now, it seems, it may have been just because "the minister requires it".

AAA578
31st Oct 2008, 05:03
Having just finished learning about Triple A

I can tell you that pre the Lockerbie accident it was the PIC's decision weather a (fail to board) FTB passenger's bags were off loaded, a passenger failed to board the Pan Am 747 to JFK and 10 mins out of LHR the plane blew up.

After the Lockerbie accident the rule was overridden and as of now any passenger that FTB will have their bags removed from the aircraft, no if's buts or maybe's

Tripple A means that the number of bags in the aircraft must match the number of bags checked in, if there is more you have to find it and remove it, if there is less that doesnt matter the plane can still go, if there is a porblem, some one in baggage bay took off to many Bingo stickers, then the bags are off loaded onto the tarmac and every one is called down to identify their bag.

At perth INTL there are 4 levels of checked bag screening (CBS) if a bag fails the 1st screen it is moved onto the 2nd screen point. if a bag passes the 1st screen it is sent to the bag belt for loading onto the aircraft, if a bag does not pass the 4th test it is loaded into a bomb trailer and taken to a remote loacation of the airport to be further investigated.

mathers_wales_uk
2nd Nov 2008, 01:00
I believe there is a total of 5 screening methods for unnacompanied items available but not all airports have facilities to perform all 5 methods.