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Alex Whittingham
10th Oct 2008, 13:52
Could someone tell me a standard-ish take-off brief and the PNF calls for a B757 take-off, please? It's for an instructional video demonstrating an engine fire before V1.

Thanks in anticipation.

bucket_and_spade
10th Oct 2008, 14:41
Hi Alex,

Relatively new to the type and commercial flying too.

Haven't got time to pen a takeoff brief that I'd use but the PNF calls during takeoff in my company are:-

PF: "Set 1.2" (the engine EPR setting).

PNF (advancing the thrust levers): "Stabilised" (when the engines have spooled up and are stable).

PF: "EPR" (while pressing the EPR button on the glareshield - this advances the thrust levers to takeoff setting).

PF/PNF both start stopwatches.

PNF (monitoring instruments and adjusting thrust levers if needed): "Thrust set".

PNF: "80 knots".

PF: "Check" (verifying their ASI is agreeing).

Then, for a normal takeoff...

PNF: "V1".

PNF: "Rotate".

PNF: "Positive climb".

PF: "Gear up".

In the case of an engine fire prior to V1...

PNF: "80 knots".

PF: "Check" (verifying their ASI is agreeing).

PNF (noticing the malfunction): "ENGINE FIRE".

In my company only the captain can usually call "STOP" or "CONTINUE". In this scenario, with the fire warning happening before V1, the call would be "STOP" and, if s/he wasn't already PF for the takeoff, s/he would announce "STOP" and conduct the stop by closing both thrust levers, disengaging the autothrottle, monitoring the autobrakes and applying maximum manual braking if the autobrakes aren't functioning/are not fitted/etc., deploying full speedbrake and full reverse thrust. PNF monitors these actions and calls out any omissions then calls "60 knots", "<Callsign> stopping." to ATC and reminds PF of the wind direction so they can position the burning engine downwind to limit the risk of fire being blown towards the fuselage. When stopped the PF sets the parking brake and gives the PA "Attention cabin crew, on station.", PNF verifies that the parking brake is set, everyone takes a breather then el capitano directs the actions to take from then on...

Hope this is some help!

B&S :ok:

Alex Whittingham
10th Oct 2008, 16:10
Thanks very much, that's exactly what I needed.

I'm only really interested in the section of the take-off brief that relates to emergencies on the runway. The brief I would use would be "I'll stop for anything up to 80kt, between 80kt and V1 I'll only stop for a fire, a config warning or an engine failure. After V1 I'll continue the take-off'" Would that do?

bucket_and_spade
10th Oct 2008, 16:33
Hello again,

For the emergencies part of the brief I would spout out (as an FO and PF) something like (again, this is the verbatim version, rarely used/appropriate for every single departure!)...

"As for problems along the way, if we have any significant malfunctions during push, start, taxi or on the runway up to 80 knots, you'll bring the aircraft to a halt and apply the park brake. I'll check the parking brake's set, speak to ATC and stand by with the QRH. For the takeoff itself, between 80 knots and V1, we'll only stop for an engine failure confirmed by two parameters, one of which should be on the EICAS screen, any fire warning, a predictive windshear warning (if fitted!), an obstructed runway or in the event that the aircraft is incapable of flight (the catch-all!). In the event of a STOP call, I'll monitor your stopping actions, call out any omissions, call 60 knots during the deceleration and put a stopping call in to ATC. I'll remind you of the wind direction if there's any indication of fire. Once stopped, I'll verify the parking brake is set, liaise with ATC and stand by with the QRH.

After V1, we'll continue the takeoff. You'll call "rotate", remind me that full go-around thrust is available if required and call "positive climb". I'll call "gear up" and then you'll cancel any alarms. There'll be no further actions until 400' AAL..."

After that I'd run through what my actions would be when airborne but it sounds like you don't plan on getting that far!

B&S

Alex Whittingham
10th Oct 2008, 16:57
That's all very useful, it answers my question completely, thanks.

900-7X
10th Oct 2008, 16:58
I'll stop for anything up to 80kt, between 80kt and V1 I'll only stop for a fire, a config warning or an engine failure. After V1 I'll continue the take-off'"

I guess this is SOP for large airline ops. In bizjets, we usually don't have the same problem with stopping so we often brief that we'll stop for anything prior to V1. Also in bizjets, generally either pilot can call for the abort and not take the time to announce the malfunction, since most bizjets accelerate much more rapidly than an airliner. Realize of course that in my compnay ops, we're talking about an airplane that only weighs 46,500 pounds, has a V1 speed of 115-117 and a takeoff distance of less than 6,000 feet.

dwshimoda
10th Oct 2008, 18:59
I guess this is SOP for large airline ops.

Yes! That's the thread title, and the question Alex posted - B757 not bizjets!

Interesting to see how you do it though!

ps - Alex - I used your CBT system for my ATPL's several years ago - abolutely top notch material - made life a little easier! Keep up the good work.

fullyspooled
10th Oct 2008, 20:02
I guess this is SOP for large airline ops. In bizjets, we usually don't have the same problem with stopping so we often brief that we'll stop for anything prior to V1.

I'm quite surprised to hear that your SOPS do not include the 70 or 80kt "stop for anything." In my experience it is used quite often in both airline and corporate operations, but obviously by not all.

While I agree that the corporate jets are likely to accelerate at a greater rate, they are (probably) more often used on runways of shorter length. This being the case, and especially in the wet, I would rather initiate a "stop" immediately upon first sight or sound of any warning, rather than investigate while continuing to V1. The only harm it can do at such a relatively low speed is cause a bit of extra brake wear, and time to replace the energy dissipation.

411A
10th Oct 2008, 22:56
Although I don't fly the B757, and further, as I do fly the Lockheed L1011, and further, so have all of my other crew members, a very simple and straight forward 'takeoff briefing'.
All of these folks have previously flown for a well known flag carrier in the middle east, so....

'Standard calls on departure' is fully understood, because we are certainly all on the same page of music.

Others, of course, might disagree, however, we have been at this job, on the specific airplane for well over twenty years...and IF you don't know the drill by now, you are....rejected at the HR department entry door.
Or before.

Full stop.:E

PS: You are not briefing for a moon takeoff/landing, so exercise the KISS principle.:}

SIDS, DP's are of course, are briefed as needed.

G-SPOTs Lost
10th Oct 2008, 23:37
Never really understood the "runway xx at xxxxxxx airport" I know you need to cross check the runway with the plate but if you/the other crewmember need reminding which airport you are at then you have a bigger problem that probably wont get fixed by a briefing.

Pedantic perhaps but i'm lucky to have excellent OEI perf at all weights and european temps so I'd rather focus on where we're going to go which is where the terrain isnt principle of KISS is most applicable for most departures at most airports

PS im bizjet and use an 80knt call dry or 70knts wet or short.

411A
11th Oct 2008, 04:52
but if you/the other crewmember need reminding which airport you are at then you have a bigger problem that probably wont get fixed by a briefing.


Precisely.
Some folks go on and on and on and on...to the complete detriment of the operation.
IE: if you don't know the standard drill by now, exit the FD and get behind a desk....at reservations.
Do I sound slightly...harsh?
You bet.
Either wake up and smell the coffee or find another job.

900-7X
11th Oct 2008, 05:17
I'm quite surprised to hear that your SOPS do not include the 70 or 80kt "stop for anything." In my experience it is used quite often in both airline and corporate operations, but obviously by not all.

While I agree that the corporate jets are likely to accelerate at a greater rate, they are (probably) more often used on runways of shorter length. This being the case, and especially in the wet, I would rather initiate a "stop" immediately upon first sight or sound of any warning, rather than investigate while continuing to V1. The only harm it can do at such a relatively low speed is cause a bit of extra brake wear, and time to replace the energy dissipation.

If the runway is wet or contaminated, yes the brief includes contingencies. We don't use runways shorter than 5,000 feet if they're wet. Unfortunately some corporate ops are not as standardized as airline ops...much to their detriment. The problem is that some ops don't use common sense. When I was instructing on the Falcon 2000, I gave a crew a significant electrical problem (the PF lost his panel) at 90 knots on an 11,000 foot runway. V1 was about 120-123. It was at night and 600 RVR. They took the damned airplane flying when the BFL was 3200 feet!!

You're so correct, it's about THINKING and once in a while, folks don't.

411A
11th Oct 2008, 21:08
...but im glad that im not in it with you!

So am I.
Lets face facts here.
A brief review is quite OK, but some of the diatribes I have heard from some Commanders while I was performing line checks, would make for a long Hollywood film.
A loooong one.

KISS.

Romeo India Xray
11th Oct 2008, 21:48
I can't really agree with you on the calling of the AD and RW. Fine if you are long haul flying with 6 sectors a month you will have everything chisseled into your brain, but if you are an RYR or EZY pilot you could be doing the same number of sectors in a single day (and not necessarily back to base after each sector). Now you are in an operation where you are carrying lots of plates with you, flying at an airport that has been pulled out of the hat of 40 or more destinations you could possibly fly to, there IS a propensity for error and the verbal check is an extra line of defence to ensure you are both singing/flying from the same sheet.

411, I agree with the KISS theory but only to a point - For you and your crews with decades on type perhaps it is fine, but in an outfit like FR you simply can't guarentee that the other guy is up to speed - Here in RIXland we have a revolving door of low hour FOs who benefit from the statement of the b**dy obvious, and snr Captains who have previously worked in other outfits with different SOPs (for some reason our SOPs are more than a little different to anything seen or heard of before). It is better to have a review of the obvious than have the RHS (or LHS for that matter) guy/gal sitting partially in the dark.

RIX

411A
12th Oct 2008, 01:46
...have a revolving door of low hour FOs who benefit from the statement of the b**dy obvious...

In this particular case, I would agree.
However, this is exactly what line training is for.
Perhaps these revolving door types are simply not paying attention....:}

G-SPOTs Lost
12th Oct 2008, 09:19
Rix

Fully respect your point of view, I appreciate your point. I did 5 sectors last weekend we'd planned for one maybe two and not once forgot where we were. We carry plates for the whole of Europe over our shoulders.

If its your "SOP" then you've just said the magic word, but to some it could seem a little superfluous. However the airlines you mention do employ low hours cadets (absolutley no problem with that.....) and if the training department thinks its a good idea then cest la vie.

Its frustrating to be told where you are though by somebody who although signed off to line struggles with memory items!!

Rgds