Working for Free

[Stormynights]

This is a very emotive issue on here.

Meat bombing seems to the major one people have a problem with.

What about glider towing ?

I have known many a now jet pilot to have done this to build hours, myself included.

This is unpaid in Aus.

Is this also "wrong" ?

[bushy]

If the pilots are required to hold a cpl or atpl then no-one should do it for free, or less than the award.

[carro]

I believe glider towing without pay is alright as the fee for the tow basically covers the fuel and maintenance. There is no profit made. This keeps the costs down for the glider pilots. And the majority of the time the tug pilot is also a glider pilot.

On the other hand with meat bombing everyone makes money except the pilot. Which is BS!

[Stormynights]

Neither of these jobs require a cpl

but there still seems to be an issue

[waren9]

If you're part of the club scene, where everyones involved for the love of the sport, and as a favour to you they give you a tow rating then one could hardly expect payment.

I know I've had a lot of help into my career by others unpaid in various club scenes and I've returned the favour to the club(s) with quite a bit of my free time in return. Thats what clubs are about. I think most of them would fold if it was any other way.

If, on the other hand, you're towing for a professional outfit that engages for profit and you come along with a self funded qualification, then some sort of remuneration prolly isnt out of the question.

Up to you.

[psycho joe]

I believe glider towing without pay is alright as the fee for the tow basically covers the fuel and maintenance. There is no profit made. This keeps the costs down for the glider pilots. And the majority of the time the tug pilot is also a glider pilot.
By your reasoning,

I believe that flying For a LCC without pay is alright. As a passengers ticket basically covers fuel and airport taxes. There is little profit made. This keeps the costs down for CEO's. And the majority of the time the pilots have also flown as passengers. :ugh:

[overpitched]

Hardly the same thing!!

[Lasiorhinus]

Hardly the same thing!!

That may be so, but why is it not the same thing?

[apache]

and what about if the company you are working for makes a "loss" that year? do YOU pay them?

[Tankengine]

I get paid to fly commercially, I also fly towplanes for free for a non profit, voluntary organisation - they ARE two different things!:ugh:

[Dupre]

Ryanair is a company, which aims to make a profit. All the employees are paid - flight crew, managers, engineers etc. What is left over goes to the shareholders.

A gliding club does not aim to make a profit (at least none that I have ever dealt with!). None of the workers are paid - instructors, the man who drives the tractor and the wife who makes the tea all give their time for free. The tug pilot is a club member just like all the rest.

I would feel like a complete idiot if I joined the club and demanded to be paid for towing.

Skydiving is different as often they are companies aiming to make a profit. The tandem master is paid, the receptionist is paid and what's left goes to the owner. In this situation the pilot should be paid as well.

So look around you - if your colleagues are paid then you should be paid too. If they are all volunteers, then you should expect to be a volunteer.

Just follow one simple rule - if the boss has a business card, then you should be paid :ok:

[Brian Abraham]

Stormynights, It certainly is an emotive issue with some. All of those professing to have paid for every single hour, it would not satisfy me until I had seen their log books and receipts for every hour flown. All the pilots I know who didn't come up through a scholarship, military or cadetship have flown for free at some time to a greater or lesser extent. Personally I gained hours towards the CPL by flying a car insurance assessor on his monthly rounds, which came to a stop when he got his own licence, bugger. Also used to fly skydiving on a PPL, but then I was a foundation member of getting the skydiving club going. Unpaid was the nature of things in my day, our skydiving airstrip was graded in virgin scrub by donated grader and driver on donated land. We used to jump at air displays for free using donated aircraft. The pix is of a display at Blyth in SA and the pilot in the background is one of the Hazelton boys (forget which one). His demand for use of his 185 was a jump the following day, which he duly did. I was the original airport bum, along with ZEEBEE, and the two of us put in much labour as pre pubescent teenagers refuelling aircraft, washing aircraft and helping on 100 hourlys, all for free and learning a great deal in the doing. Reward was an occasional ride. We live in a competitive and capitalistic society and anyone who doesn't take advantage of the opportunities offered to him is a dill. A guy refusing to take up an opportunity to fly for free on a PPL (providing its legal) in order to climb the ladder is lacking in ambition and drive in my humble opinion. One pilot standing on his digs that he's not going to do it unpaid is not going to change anything in the greater scheme of things.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/Brian.jpg

[Stormynights]

I agree
and to be quite frank about it
even if it is someone working for nothing with a cpl in the right circumstances then who are we to criticise

We have all done things to get here

and i for one would do what ever it took to get the right job

[psycho joe]

and i for one would do what ever it took to get the right job

And at what point do you stop prostituting yourself?

Just remember, there's ALWAYS an excuse for flying for free. Whether it be from the pilot who just wants hours, or the GA company that can't possibly pay you because the margins are too small; To the largest airlines who have to reduce your wages and conditions because of the latest "crisis" to hit aviation (And there's always a crisis when it comes time for EBA negotiations).

If any pilot can make a valid argument for flying for free then I'd suggest that their talents are wasted in the cockpit. You should join a HR department in an airline and make a great living making an argument for why other pilots should fly for free.

[scroogee]

Regarding Brians post, thats the basic difference: Flying on a PPL at a parachuting club with sport jumpers and students only.

The conflict occurs when parachuting BUSINESSES, who sell parachute jumps and training, charge members of the public and are willing to pay their packers, jumpmasters, photographers and make a profit from their BUSINESS.

But they don't pay their pilots because they are allowed to operate aircraft on private ops without commercial pilots. Frankly it makes business sense but is still a cop out and unfair.

If commercial parachuting was recognised as such and required an AOC then much of the problem would be solved (though not all- there's always a few about).

[TexanPilot]

Obviously this is a sore topic to some people. I have always believed that if you are a PPL holder and trying to get hours for a CPL you will at some stage do some flying for free. I obviously don't support the CPL pilots working for free as there is no benefit in it (except the operator gaining a bigger profit margin).

If you were a young pilot trying to gain the hours for a CPL you have 2 choices; pay for that flying or take up someones offer for free flying. If you way it up logically the cheapest a/c hire at the moment (and I'm just guessing here because I haven't done it in many years lol) would be a couple hundred an hour. So lets say as an argument that you were going to pay $200 for an hour in an aircraft and someone offered you an hour for free, then you are getting the hour and keeping that $200 in the bank. I think this is a fair deal.

That being said I think it is up to the individual to weigh up the options here as there are some undesirable operators out there that abuse this system.:=

[AnyGivenSunday99]

All the pilots I know who didn't come up through a scholarship, military or cadetship have flown for free at some time to a greater or lesser extent.

I have never flown for free, and never will.

This perhaps was the case 5 years ago, and even then it was possible to get paid meatbombing jobs. I do agree with the "club" pilots flying for free as part of their services to the club.

With the pilot shortage (and there is still a shortage) it is even possible to get a job on cattle stations with a PPL, and they will pay you for it.

Personally, I do nothing for free. I can however understand PPL guys flying for free to build hours, but i would suggest they at least TRY to get paid. As for CPL guys flying for free - wake up and smell the roses. There are lots of jobs out there that pay. Dont prostitute yourself and ruin what our predecessors flew and fought so hard for.

[Yusef Danet]

Technically my learned friend if you "prostituting yourself" you would be earning money for your services.

Without money changing hands you're just slutting.

To summarise:

If it's a club, it's not for profit, then it's a private operation.

If it's a business it's commercial and you're doing yourself no favours if someone is making money from your labours and you're not.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Scrooge,

In Oz, at present it is not a requirement for a parachuting company to hold an AOC, they join the APF and are self regulated.

Do not confuse working for free as anything to do with CASA, if an individual or company is making money from your skills, you should be paid period

If you do not homour that rule, it will bite you in the bum at a later stage.

[Swanrider]

If you do not honour that rule, it will bite you in the bum at a later stage.

It sure will, as it's a small industry and your reputation is everything.

[bushy]

As long as we have this obscene lottery situation where airlines will not commit to anything and desparate young pilots have to train themselves, then hang around and wait with hundreds of others hoping to "hit the jackpot" and get that mythical, prestigeous, highly paid skygod job, we will have pilots working for nothing and destroying GA.

How many major airlines have pilots working for nothing???? What would happen if they did???

What if one airline company insisted that it's pilots were required to organise an income stream to pay their own wages and expenses???? It happens in GA.

What if one airline was operating into an area where other people were required to have a permit to go??? And they were also able to influence the pax bookings that were made????

What if one company was able to buy expensive aircraft with government financial support and raise money from public donations then tender for government contracts against others who did not???

And lots of other things.

Does our Government favour all these things so they can get cheap flying???
Is any of this fair trading????

Are there any "not for profit" major airlines in Australia??

AOC's should not be issued to "not for profit" organisations. AOC's are for "commercial" operations and that means having a profit motive and standing on their own feet

And they should pay their pilots properly, if they want proper pilots. You do not get proper pilots unless
there is proper pay. In the commercial world pilots get paid what they are worth. Some work for nothing.

There is nothing wrong with club members working part time for nothing in a bona fide club on a genuine private operation for the common good. This does not mean providing services for paid passenger transport under an AOC.

However there must be clear definitions of operations of what is what. It is very vague, and being exploited at the moment.

If these things are fixed our very important GA industry may grow again.