CX LEPs.... it's time to join

[Night Watch]

First of all..... It is a real shame the there are not more LEPs in the AOA. I don't know the exact percentage, but I do know it's not high. Having said that now is the time to join!

The AOA has just negotiated with Management (through the Hong Kong Labour Department) that LEPs who are in receipt of bypass pay will now receive the HK$24,000 per month Special Allowance payable to locally employed Captains. This will be back dated to the 01/07/08..... This is something that LEPs should have been getting all along, but at least a AOA GC (with NO LEPs in the GC) has gone into battle for you... and had a win!

To all Non-AOA LEPs...... Please show that you care about the pilot group as a whole and join the AOA. Hopefully with a bit of Unity we can ALL have a win.

[controlledCHAOS]

They're too busy eating their wonton noodles mate! Maybe you should post this info at the Noodle shops in Kowloon.

Maybe you should offer perks like getting AOA 15% discounts for noodles. That'll get them to sign up.

[volarecantare]

Chaos, control yourself, your use of the word "Mate" indicates your " Down Under " Nationality and the LOW DOWN attitude which seems to (not always) but often accompany that passport , you ought to be ashamed of yourself! What is it with you guys...go home to your "mates" if you are so miserable here in Asia.

You have completely overshadowed a good effort by Nightwatch to encourage the LEPS to join up. Stop being so destructive.! I hope the locals don't judge all of us based on their experience with you....mate!

[controlledCHAOS]

Oh please lighten up! It is not race motivated! It's all in good fun..

Life sux! Laugh it up!!! Must we be politically correct all the time?

[Numero Crunchero]

chaos,
there is a fine line between satire and rudeness - if you turn around and look back about a mile you will see it!

[goathead]

chaos, your a D###HEAD , P###OFF

[C172Driver]

First of all, thank you and well done to the AOA,:D it's nice to finally see something done that directly benefits the LEP. This has got a lot of LEP's talking and we are extremely impressed and very happy to hear about it.

Regarding the wonton noodles...the reason why LEPs dont join is because they don't see any direct benefit LEPs (housing negotiation, basings, etc) but they need to see it's much more than that :ugh:, as a result there are low numbers in the AOA, and a lack of representation- its a viscous cycle really.

I signed up when I first joined, got quite a few others to join now. Seeing this recent progress is great news for the LEP and it will do more to drum up support to join.:ok:

[fire wall]

volarecantare, I hold the same passport.
Stupid people abound, regardless of the colour of the of the book they hand to immigration.
Careful you don't put yourself in the same xenophobic basket as our resident idiot.

[ACMS]

I talked about the AOA to a 23 yo LEP on a trip last week and do you know what reason he gave for not bothering to join up. "it doesn't effect me anyway, I'm only 23 it doesn't matter"

He deserves whatever screwing he gets, trouble is he weakens the rest of us too.

I suppose considering he's only a baby at 23 I shouldn't have been too surprised at his comment.

How many more children do we employ that don't care about their time to upgrade?

[volarecantare]

I agree firewall, thats why I said "NOT ALL" but its been my experience that the attitude shown by your brother/mate above is by no means rare. The Harden the ***** attitude is destroys and divides. Individually I find the Australian passport holders often fine but when they get into a pack..well its rarely healthy , whingin , bitchin. Again not all.

[controlledCHAOS]

I talked about the AOA to a 23 yo LEP on a trip last week and do you know what reason he gave for not bothering to join up. "it doesn't effect me anyway, I'm only 23 it doesn't matter"

He deserves whatever screwing he gets, trouble is he weakens the rest of us too.

I suppose considering he's only a baby at 23 I shouldn't have been too surprised at his comment.

How many more children do we employ that don't care about their time to upgrade?


Why are you so keen on getting people to join the Discovery Bay Yacht club? I mean, that's essentially what it is.....right?:=

[ACMS]

Mate if you're too damn dumb to ask why then god help us all.

You must be kidding me right?

Come on?

[geh065]

There are some LEPs I have spoken to who claim the AOA are taking credit for what the local pilot committee essentially negotiated and it wasn't until the deal was nearly done that the AOA stepped in completed the final touches.
Whether or not this is entirely true, it seems to be the feeling amongst the locals and it will take a lot more than this to get the locals to rejoin/join the AOA.

[FlexibleResponse]

There are some low life that seem to get cheap thrills out of splashing their boots around in **** puddles hoping that they might hit someone else apart from themselves. We all know who they are, and we should politely ignore their childish rantings.

Night Watch reported an significant improvement in the conditions of service for LEPs who are in receipt of bypass pay that was negotiated by the AOA with back-dating of that improvement.

This is something for all LEPs to celebrate and for them to consider joining the AOA to lend support to the ideal of improving the lot of all CX employed pilots.

[14MonthInterview]

After reading the AOA update this week regarding LEP command BPP. I am little confused by the way it was presented. Not trying to **** stir, but I would like to see how others interpret this because I read it slightly differently to 'backpaying' the BPP. I read it as all those in receipt of BPP before 1 July will ONLY be backdated to 1 July (to state the obvious we are currently in October, therefore a backdate to 1 July is still significant) and NOT backdated to the day BPP commenced for that individual. AND those in receipt of BPP since 1 July will be backdated from when they began receiving BPP (this bit is rather straight forward).

"All Officers in receipt of BPP on or since 01July will receive the allowance either from 01July (backdated) or from when they began receiving BPP. Incomplete months will be paid on a pro-rated basis."

As we read in previous updates, it is understood the sticking point may be the matter of backdating the pay where some individuals could be owed somewhere in the region of $1million. (25 Aug).

Thoughts?

[controlledCHAOS]

1 Airline, 3 "unions"? We are F***cking doomed!!! We can't even decide on which "union" to belong to?

AOA, CPU, and Local Pilot committee. WHAT A JOKE

[controlledCHAOS]

posted by ACMS:
Mate if your too damn dumb to ask why then god help us all.

You must be kidding me right?

Come on?


ACMS mate,

Your use of the word "your" in the above sentence is incorrect. Now, My guess is that you were trying to say You-Are..in which case, the correct spelling would be "you're"

Just want to help out another AOA brother.

Cheers

[Kurtis Chukle Willis]

Let me get this straight,

We are hiring DEC's, DEFO's & still extending Captains beyond 55, which is delaying upgrades across the board. Allot of guys who should be upgrading as we speak, are not because of the current debacle. The ONLY protection we have against this abuse of our contracts is bypass pay, and this is being paid to all those that were given a shot at upgrade and by one way or another did not get through. The union now "negotiates" a housing allowance for these guys getting paid to do a job that they are not doing.... OK:D... good one.

So now I guess the second best job in this company,number one being a failed command trainee who then takes up his base in seniority and goes onto bypass pay, is the above.

Why does this not surprise me, CX thinks this is great! it is a "no cost item" for them. Take one extender, give him\her a pay-cut to B-scale,and send the proceeds to next most senior FO(regardless).

Can anyone fix this mess? This is a shallow victory.:{

[iLuvPX]

The AOA wants all the LEP's to join, so they have another group to sell out in order to maintain A-scale salaries. They have done nothing for LEPs the entire time and are happy to have them on less conditions than the rest of the pilot group.

They will protect the LEPs just as they did the 49'ers. The AOA is no better than the maggots in the Star Chamber. Its shameful they didnt stand behind their members when they needed it the most.

Oh, and Chaos, give ACMS a break...its hard for him to see the big picture when he has the AOA's balls resting on his chin.

[ACMS]

I Love PX or I love myself. Whatever your name is

If you have a look at the AOA GC I think you'll find the majority are B scale now.

While in an perfect world ( where Beer is free and the women easy ) the LEP's would be getting the same conditions as the EXPATS, but we are not in an perfect world. They are LOCALS and as such I don't see why they should get the EXPAT allowances we get.

Our BASED Pilot's are LOCALS in their home country and don't get ANY EXPAT allowances either. ( not even a free carpark at the Airport like QF JQ and VB crew get )
The HKG LEP's get the SAME PAY, SAME HDP, SAME EFP, SAME HOTEL ALLOWANCES, SAME 13th MONTH etc etc. ( As they should ). It's the EXPAT allowances they don't get.

Stop twisting the truth.

[iLuvPX]

How ironic, it sounds more like YOU love yourself. Do the LEP's get 13th month? Housing allowance? Education allowance? Or is that saved for people just like you? How does it cost an expat more to live in HK than a LEP? They dont have kids to school, house payments, taxes??

They have the same costs as expats do, period. When did CX force you to move to HK and take this job? Why should you get extra pay? You do the same job as they do, therefore should get the same pay.

So get off your elitist high horse AMCS, and quit thinking you are better than them.

Wise up.

[ACMS]

oh man you are a old horse aren't you.

really 70 years old? You don't act it.

Let me spell it out for you bud. ( I know you're 70 and probably a bit sloooooww)

EXPATRIATE.

The LEP Pilot's are NOT EXPATS.

The EXPATS are EXPATS hence the name EXPATRIATE.

Following me so far?

Oh, and yes the LEP's DO get 13th month.

They just don't get the EXPAT allowances, why? good question old fella!!

Because......................wait for it............................

They are NOT EXPATS.

See, simple really.

Why do I get EXPAT allowances? because CX like a LOT of Asian Carriers cannot GROW their own Pilot's on coconut trees and need to ATTRACT experienced Pilot's like us EXPATS. Now to get us all to come thousands of miles from our home countries they need to make it attractive with a lifestyle we are accustomed to, hence EXPAT ALLOWANCES. I mean lets face it, if it wasn't for the money we wouldn't be here at all and CX management would have to fly the Aircraft themselves or ground the Airline.

Now it would be nice to pay the local this money too but they are LOCALS that were born here.

As I said before, but you've probably forgotten ( due to the old age thing )
Our own Cathay Pacific based Pilot's in their home country DO NOT GET EXPAT ALLOWANCES because.......................yep you got it............they are not EXPATS even though they do the same job.


It's not a hard concept to grasp is it buddy?

I imagine that you used to be part of the HK Aviation community once? I imagine you got EXPAT allowances over and above your local colleagues?

thought so.

[ACMS]

Stop paying EXPAT allowances and see what happens to the HK economy then...................................

Not just in the Aviation industry...........


And not just in HK, China, Singapore, Malaysia, etc etc etc.


They want our skills? They PAY THE DOSH.

Simple SUPPLY AND DEMAND

[whodunnit2]

ACMS, you are correct about expats BUT a large number of our newer LEP's are in reality expats.

They have access to a HKID card but have lived their entire lives (bar the first few months in most cases) in Australia or Canada.

Where do they fit into the picture then? If they take a base they get no allowances. If they stay in HKG they get no allowances. Hardly fair I would say.
Just because CX paid for their training shouldn't mean that they get no allowances for the next 40 years of their careers.

Oh, and by the way, I am not a local.

W2

[controlledCHAOS]

Just because CX paid for their training shouldn't mean that they get no allowances for the next 40 years of their careers.


CX doesn't always pay for their training. Know of 1 guy who is from Hong Kong, never lived anywhere else. Came to the U.S. to get his training, then got hired by CX. After a few months, he was called into the office and was told that he is in fact a "local" and not entitled to any allowances.

[ACMS]

I agree it is difficult for the guys in that position.

Hey, if it was up to me we'd all be on A scale AND expat allowances.

If there's a crack someone will fall into it.

If we had more guys willing to join the Union then these cracks would be smaller.

[controlledCHAOS]

Hey, if it was up to me we'd all be on A scale AND expat allowances.

Still not too late to join the management team. :sad: All it takes is to sack a few people and Cat D a few more and you're right in there with the big boys.

[CXChildLabour]

ACMS is the exact reason why a lot of the LEPs don't wanna join the AOA. Expats thinking they're far more superior and only wanna use the number game to improve their own conditions. I was singling out the DEFO's in my other posting and got blasted for doing so, I really don't see how other AOA members are backing a even bigger and longer serving CX pilot group here while ACMS is singling them out. I hope these guys ain't taking the "oh it doesn't affect me anyway cause I'm an expat" appraoch, cause that would justify all the reasons why the LEPs don't join the AOA, and really makes me wonder if I've made a bad decision to join in the first place.

Yes CX did pay for training for the LEP's but in terms of compensation, 1.2 million HKD training cost would only equal to an expat's allowance for his SO career. Sometimes it's quite interesting to see how one differentiate an expat and a local, ask around and you'll find a lot of the so-called "EXPATS" are actually more LOCAL than a lot of the LEP's. Born and raised in Hong Kong cause his parents worked here (and probably on expat terms as well), go home for couple years to get their license, then come back and sign on expat terms. While the LEP sitting beside him could've been living overseas for most of his life, unable to support his aviation training on his own and decided to fight his way through the cadet system, only to find out that he's on the s**t scale for the rest of his career, barely making a decent living for his own and family, and still having to listen to guys like ACMS brag about their new house, cars, boats, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-wife in flight. Now that's the perfect world for ya mate.

As far as guys not getting housing allowance when they go on base, now let's work out the logic here.... If one is considered an EXPAT in HKG (and came on their own terms) not get any EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they go back to their home country, it would only make sense for the AOA to fight for the LEPs so that they all get EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they take up a base. Since they were considered as LOCALS in HKG, and it'd only make sense that they become EXPATS when they go on a base (as well on their own terms).

I'm sure ACMS will the first one to propose this movement to NR since he's so keen on separating the EXPAT gorup and the LEP group, it makes no sense to mix these two into one when they go on a base, right? Now let's see how much of a chance these HKG EXPATS would get a base when everyone in the LEP join the fight for these spots.

[wowpeter]

They just don't get the EXPAT allowances, why? good question old fella!!

Because......................wait for it............................

They are NOT EXPATS.

See, simple really.

Why do I get EXPAT allowances? because CX like a LOT of Asian Carriers cannot GROW their own Pilot's on coconut trees and need to ATTRACT experienced Pilot's like us EXPATS. Now to get us all to come thousands of miles from our home countries they need to make it attractive with a lifestyle we are accustomed to, hence EXPAT ALLOWANCES. I mean lets face it, if it wasn't for the money we wouldn't be here at all and CX management would have to fly the Aircraft themselves or ground the Airline.

Now it would be nice to pay the local this money too but they are LOCALS that were born here.

As I said before, but you've probably forgotten ( due to the old age thing )
Our own Cathay Pacific based Pilot's in their home country DO NOT GET EXPAT ALLOWANCES because.......................yep you got it............they are not EXPATS even though they do the same job.



ACMS, I think you will only find your argument valid in CX... because most other industries in HK has moved on... and it is only CX that is still stuck in the stone aged...

To be honest, only in Cathay you will find that the Expat thinks they are that much more superior than those who are on local terms. This is just a bad situations that is created by the old school Cathay system where there is an Expat terms and a Local terms... If you look at most other industries in Hong Kong, like banking (commerical and investment), law firm, accounting firm, real estate, etc... Most of them all moved on from this system years ago... One quick look at most multinational and big listed corporations, you will realize that there is no such thing as Expat terms for new hires anymore... everyone get the same pay and benefits if you are on the same pay grade... However, most Expat at banks and law firm, etc, do enters those firm at a higher pay grade level than most locals, but if locals reaches the same pay grade, they will get the same benefit as their EXPAT colleagues at the same company. This should be the way it is, and hence, this is the reason why so many LEP are not happy for their local package.

Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world... Most, if it is not because of their love of aviation, will probably get a much better paying job back at their respective country of residents... I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well... Most LEP have lived overseas for most of their lives and actually hold oversea passport... and most need to relocate back to HK for their CX job... therefore most LEP don't see themselves being any different than their Expat counterpart. The only distinction that the company is holding against the LEP is the fact that all LEP has a permanent HK ID card (ie: born in HK) and that's why they are consider locals... this is just a bunch of bulls*it really... This is also exactly why most of LEP demand to be equal in terms of their treatment at CX.

Finally, for those who argues that CX pays for LEP training so that's why you get a reduce benefits... this argument is flawed because they are now offering the instructor program for everyone around the world (including locals) and they are offering them Expat package on arrive back to HK... so really, the whole Expat package is just another way for CX to divide and conquer their pilot group. It has nothing to do with being Expat or Locals or not.

In order to get more LEP to join AOA, AOA needs to agree to at least attempt fight to bring the local package on par or closed to the expat package... the only way I see this can happens is to have the AOA to negotiate a HKG package irrespective of local or expat (like the rest of the industries in HKG)... and this way, it will drop the whole local/expat stigma and strength the whole pilot group.

wowpeter

(Note: In case anyone wonders... I am an AOA member... So far, I think the current committee is doing a much better job than the previous one! I have confident that you will see more LEP support if they keep up the good work.)

[Dragon69]

LEPs are more than welcomed to apply to air carriers in the Middle East and receive expat benefits, but I am guessing none will, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

[controlledCHAOS]

LEPs are more than welcomed to apply to air carriers in the Middle East and receive expat benefits, but I am guessing none will, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Just like some of us who are based outside Hong Kong, but want a full 13th month's pay plus Expat allowances. We're all the same mate.

Also, The LEPs are bonded for 7 years. Although I have been told it's not enforcible in Hong Kong.

[Dragon69]

Just like some of us who are based outside Hong Kong, but want a full 13th month's pay plus Expat allowances.


Yeah and I would like to receive TT's salary....keep dreaming!

[controlledCHAOS]

Yeah and I would like to receive TT's salary....keep dreaming!

Inaction and that's exactly when we'll get it (in our dreams). Or we could join forces (Sick-out) and demand what we are worth.

[controlledCHAOS]

My favorite tactic is taxi with high thrust settings while riding the brakes. On a hot day in HKG, it will over-heat by the time you taxi to all the way down to 07R.

Delays will cause disruptions, disruptions will get us what we are worth.

[controlledCHAOS]

Diversions will probably piss them off too.

A few years back, a Delta Airlines Captain diverted and landed in Portland, Oregon on his flight from ATL-NRT. He was upset that the company had removed the crew rest facility and make room for more seats. 300 people stranded, the event made the news, Delta received bad press, Crew Rest re-installed.

Worked like magic.

[controlledCHAOS]

Flying Bangkok-Hong Kong?? drop into Siem Riep.

Doing Karachi-Bangkok? Say hello to Yangon..

B330 to Europe? Try breakfast in Chengdu

Linecheck to Rome? How about doing the de-brief in Kunming?

They'll get the point after a while.

[CXChildLabour]

LEPs are more than welcomed to apply to air carriers in the Middle East and receive expat benefits, but I am guessing none will, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Yeah, so can expats if they don't like the package offered by CX, take Mr. AA for example. I guess there ain't any point of having a union afterall if all it looks after is its mates up top while sacrificing ones at the bottom of the scale. Stop whining about people not joining and actually do something to convince them. The recent bypass allowance is a SMALL step towards getting more LEP's to join the AOA and a-holes like this is ruining the progress. The damage done by these guys is far greater than efforts for us LEP-AOA members to pitch at those non-members, don't blame us for not trying. Respect is earned, NOT GIVEN.

[ACMS]

wow some heated people in here. Please explain where I said I was "superior to the local Pilot's"???

All I said was that I was employed as an EXPAT and as such the company paid EXPAT allowances to attract my experience here to fly their Aircraft.
Otherwise I can absolutely guarantee you 100% NONE of the EXPATS would come here, why would we bother?

LEP's are welcome to get as much as they can as far as I'm concerned. I don't want them HELD back for one minute and I don't think that is what I said.

Trouble is that the fact of the matter is they are locals and that can't be changed.

What can change is the bargaining power of the AOA through a bigger membership base. Then the locals can push their case thru their representative ( yep the AOA )

While many of the LEP and expats do nothing but bitch on the side nothing will happen, for that is certain.

[ACMS]

As far as guys not getting housing allowance when they go on base, now let's work out the logic here.... If one is considered an EXPAT in HKG (and came on their own terms) not get any EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they go back to their home country, it would only make sense for the AOA to fight for the LEPs so that they all get EXPAT ALLOWANCE when they take up a base. Since they were considered as LOCALS in HKG, and it'd only make sense that they become EXPATS when they go on a base (as well on their own terms).

I'm not against that concept, I might be difficult to achieve. EXPAT allowances are to bring the persons standard of living up to what he is used to and I'm not sure that a 500 sq foot apartment in Melbourne costs that much.? Or a public school in Melbourne? because that's the life the Chinese expat in Melbourne would be used to coming from HK. ( 500 sq foot dog box and a public school )


You guys forget the whole premise of a EXPAT package. it's to offer the person the opportunity to have the same standard of Life he had in his own country before. Otherwise they WONT bother coming.

For the price you rent a decent Apartment in HK you could get a Penthouse in Australia. This is what CX have to do to get us to stay.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I can say for certain that if CX didn't have to offer these terms to get EXPATS they wouldn't.

[CXChildLabour]

ACMS

So if I read you correctly, what you meant is that people would only come to HKG because the EXPAT allowance is substantially more than the LEP package, and not because of what you get as an individual. Cause it does sound like it to me. Why does it have to be ONE EXPACT PACKAGE AND ONE LOCAL PACKAGE? Couldn't it just be ONE PACKAGE? Let it be A-, B-, C-, D-, ... Z-scale. People doing the same job on the same COS should get the same deal.

In no way am I saying that EXPAT allowance should be reduced, but more like the LEP pacakge should be increased to a level that would allow them to afford close to if not the same lifestyle the next guy doing the same job.

If you think living in a 500 sq ft apartment and sending kids to public school is the kind of lifestyle LEPs deserve then it really doesn't surprise me how naive you are at all. Why would you think local kids deserve to be educated in public schools instead of private schools? Is it because HKG's public school system is far better than, say Melbourne's, public school system? So kids coming from abroad requires private school in their home country and thus require the same in HKG? Now that oughta say something about the schooling in your home country mate. And please don't give me the language barrier bulls**t, a lot of the LEP household speak solely English as well so going to public school doesn't make sense for them just like yours.

To be honest, if you ask around, I guarantee you any LEP would prefer allowance for even a 500 sq ft apartment in Melbourne rather than absolutely nothing in HKG, and majority would probably bolt for the base in a flash. If he could be folking out 1/4 instead of 1/2 of his salary for housing and education bills, it'd still go a long way in the end.

[Old Fella]

ACMS, I accept that things have changed over time and that CX is not the same company with which I enjoyed my time in their employ. What I am not sure of is that the only thing which attracts pilots to join CX is the "Expat package". Many, if not all, the pilots whom I know and with whom I flew in CX initially came to CX because of the opportunity they saw to fly with an expanding company in good aircraft and be well paid, in comparison to where they had been. Most were relatively happy with their lot in the employ of CX. Some, surprisingly often from previously poorly paid backgrounds, came to expect to be treated like "kings". My feelings after reading a lot of the posts here is that life, for some, must be a very miserable existence in CX today. My question to those so unhappy is, and I think it is a fair one, why not pull up stumps and find an employer with whom life would be more fulfilling? Seems pretty simple to me, but there again I am just a silly old 68 year old who would not understand what it is like to do it tough, like bloody hell I don't.

[SMOC]

Here's a question, if having a HKID before you join CX makes you a local and eligible for the cadet program, why are the OASIS/KA guys hired FROM HKG with a HKID (some with permanent IDs) hired on expat terms???????? fair enough it's after their 3 year service on the freighter, but they still get EXPAT terms after 3 years, while a LOCAL Captain who's been here over 10 years never gets it? :ugh:

[XFR8]

For those of you still confused and as stated by Cathay Pacific Airways Management in previous correspondence, Cathay Pacific Airways Personnel policy is driven by market forces, repeat MARKET FORCES.

Those wanting a CAREER airline, look elsewhere.

[ACMS]

Old Fella..........CX has changed and I venture to suggest the main reason EXPATS come to CX is for the MONEY. Although that is getting eroded more and more every day. Not to mention the contract abuse by the Management.

Now Childlabour...............if you can negaotiate the same total package for the LEP's then good on ya.

The fact of HK local life is that probably 80% of the population live in 500 sq feet or even less. FACT I'm affraid to say. A bit different from the lifestyle most EXPATS have in their home country.

To live a fairly normal EXPAT life up here you need to spend maybe 60,000 HKD month or 12,000 AUD. In The Australian Gold Coast you could rent a 4 bedroom house on a canal in Hope Island with a pool, jetty, nice Garden and a 2 car garage for about $4500 AUD month.

Proof is the fact of soooo many HK Chinese living in Canada, Australia in HUGE houses and driving Mercs around. They escaped their HK size existance.
Not to forget the HK Govt want to expand the population to 10 million to compete with China and Taiwan. that outta make things even tighter.

I venture to suggest an EXPAT 10 y.o. kid wouldn't do too well in a HK local school, he wouldn't understand the language for a start.

I went to a Public school in Oz and my kids most likely will too. Australian Public schools are quite good if you get a good one.


I have never said I think the LEP's shouldn't get allowances, but it's a bit hard to argue they should.

If it ever came to a vote in the AOA ( not something we need to vote on ) I would vote for the LEP's getting all the allowances. As I would vote for all Pilot's to be employed on the SAME COS.

As XFR8 said...........market forces.

[Old Fella]

ACMS. I presume the HK $60000 is the going rate per month for an acceptable home, for an expat, these days. Your post implys you have to spend that amount. For clarity, what percentage of that amount does CX pay these days?

[Numero Crunchero]

According to CX figures, it costs an extra $700K HKD in training for a cadet versus a DESO.

So lets assume the guy/gal is 25 when joining and works to 55. Lets assume 12years to command(hey, I am a glass is half full kinda guy;-)

An expat SO would have spent about $768K of CX money in the first 2 years of renting (2 * 12 * $32K). Lets assume he/she rents for the RFZ for the next 10 years waiting for command. That would mean 12 * 10 * $65K = $7.8M. About 18 years as a Captain getting about $70K more than an LEP Captain ( $103K less $8K pilot contribution less $24K paid to LEP) >> 18 * 12 * (103-8-24 = 71) = $15.4M

Lets say the expat SO has two kids - 6 years of Primary education assistance, 6 years of Secondary - I don't have the exact numbers at hand but roughly $45K for primary and $75K for secondary. So education assistance equals 6 * 2(kids) *$45K + 6 *2 * 75K = $1.44M

Total extra expat costs - $768K, $7.8M, $15.4M, $1.44M


So the LEP who cost CX about $700K more to train than the expat SO saves CX around $25.4Million HKD. So who do you think the winner is, the LEP for getting trained for free, or CX?

[ACMS]

NC.............when you look at the numbers it's quite staggering!!

Like I've said if the GC wish to push harder for lep's to get more allowances then I'll support them.

Olds Fella..............I pay a LOT more than 60,000 HKD.
In the end CX pay round about 92% of it. These numbers are also staggering !!

[14MonthInterview]

There is an obvious issue with the disparities between Local pilots and their expat HK based colleagues. Especially when we look at the current figures of the expat housing allowance, its staggering compared to the basic salary of different ranks. To put things into perspective, a B scale local captain's package is about on par with an expat JFO, or SO on bypass pay (thats assuming that the JFO/SO has no kids in school!). On the issue of ex cadets having less experience, I think it is safe to say by the time they attain command, they can be considered experienced pilots when compared to their SO/JFO colleagues who joined as direct entry SOs, but the package does not reflect this.

Local pilots concept was conceived in the late 80's after CX started its cadet program, but things have changed alot in HK since then, but unfortunately the fundamentals of having pilots on local terms haven't. Not only has HK seen a social change, in what Wowpeter rightly suggested, that many other institutions have done away with expat terms altogether and brought their basic salaries up to cover the expat expenses so that locals were no longer discriminated. In CX itself the terms in which pilots join have drastically changed aswell (B scale & COS 08). This of course affected both expat and local new joiners, but what I am suggesting is that the concept of local pilots at that time was based on a market driven A scale salary, so that a local pilot may buy a property and pay it off with a higher than average salary. Today on B scale, the situation is very different, if not borderline dire! Not to mention that without a market driven payrise in so many years, whilst our expat colleagues are protected by an indexed housing scheme. Even compared to our peers at Dragonair, as local pilots our FO packages at CX are not even competitive. It is easy to see the difficulties for local pilots to lead a decent 'lifestyle' that is such a buzzword amongst CX pilots these days, but to be honest I would be more inclined to use the term 'livelihood' rather than 'lifestyle' in the topic we are discussing here.

As NC has crunched the numbers for us on what CX saves over a 30yr career here. Must a local pilot's inexperience when they joined and the fact that they hold a resident ID (new rules) be penalised through a 30yr career? SMOC poses a good question on this issue, why are all these KA/Oasis joiners on a freighter contract eligible for expat terms after their freighter commitment? Do they not hold a HKID card as residents when they joined? How are they different from the other local pilots?

[controlledCHAOS]

14MonthInterview,

Mate, it is pretty obvious (to everyone) that you local Chinese are being discriminated against. If I were you guys, I'll stage some kind of a "walk-off" to show my anger. Think about it, you're being discriminated against in your home country! Until Cathay is 100% run by HK Chinese, nothing will improve for you.

Until then....CANNOT-LA!!!!!!!

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

WOWPETER SAYS.........

"Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world. I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well."

Please don't bring education into this argument. If you have a nice phd grad, master grad or law school grad as you put it, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING FLYING AEROPLANES???

You are now a "Blue Collar Worker" in Hong Kong. ( Yep.... Ask the Banks when you go and fill out any sort of application form!!!)
FORGET ABOUT YOUR SUPERIOR EDUCATION!!!

[mrfox]

Trouble is that the fact of the matter is they are locals and that can't be changed.

...Reaching the outskirts, I was stopped by a soldier. "Are you a Jew?" he demanded. Without a word, I handed him my certificate. He looked at it and then spat out: "Yes, but you are still a Jew!" He seized a shovel and slammed it into my back, knocking me into a ditch. There I was ordered to join fellow Jews who were digging graves for dead...

Regards,
Just a Local

[iceman50]

Sorry mrfox but you should delete that post it is extremely bad taste. How dare you compare yourself to the millions slaughtered by the Nazi's!!:mad::mad:

[ACMS]

This has degenerated into a local V expat thing which IT MOST CERTAINLY ISN'T.

Cut the crap..............we are all on the same side.

[mrfox]

Sorry mrfox but you should delete that post it is extremely bad taste. How dare you compare yourself to the millions slaughtered by the Nazi's!!

I realize the Holocaust reference can raise some personal issues with readers, but please appreciate that the discriminatory tone raised by these postings are of a very personal nature to me also. I deeply respect the historical significance and pain of the Jewish experience of WWII, along with many other similar instances throughout history where bigotry triumphed over humanity, where certain groups of people are casted as inferior by race/creed/color/national origin/sex/political affiliation/beliefs. As a member of the outcaste group in the current situation, I feel that the analogy I've drawn is appropriate. You are welcome to report this to the moderators if you feel I have overstepped the boundaries of this forum.

This has degenerated into a local V expat thing which IT MOST CERTAINLY ISN'T.

Cut the crap..............we are all on the same side.
I’d like nothing better.
Perhaps you can start by referring to us as fellow Cathay pilots rather than as “they” or “the locals”.

[mephisto88]

If we were all on the same side, surely the percentage of LEP members would be similar to the percentage of expat members. Clearly it is not - someone is just along for the free ride - until the going gets tough.

Many of you will remember that in the lead up to the 49'ers, the union said it would pay something akin to subsistance allowance to any member who was terminated. There was a rush of many previous non members to join.
The percentage of LEPS who joined then only to leave, when 5% subs to support our fallen colleagues was asked for, was far greater than the % of expat pilots, who by the way also quit in droves. Both of which showed lack of moral fibre.

Nett feeling is that many LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them, or when the next threat comes from the company, both of which look unlikely in the near future.



Overall, the word "freeloaders" springs to mind

[wowpeter]

WOWPETER SAYS.........

"Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world. I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well."

Please don't bring education into this argument. If you have a nice phd grad, master grad or law school grad as you put it, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING FLYING AEROPLANES???

You are now a "Blue Collar Worker" in Hong Kong. ( Yep.... Ask the Banks when you go and fill out any sort of application form!!!)
FORGET ABOUT YOUR SUPERIOR EDUCATION!!!

Sleeves of Wizards... we come to join CX to fly airplane because we love aviation... if it is not because of that simple fact, I will not look twice to apply for CX... it is as simple as that... and I am sure it is the same for a lot of the other cadets as well... so the education part does matters... even now, I am looking into my career potential at CX vs elsewhere based on my education... and constantly comparing the package out there vs the CX package (especially when considering that the CX package will likely remain stagnated for the foreseeable future)... so if the latter turns out to be better (which are looking more and more like it), I will be gone... I am not trying to offense any pilot at CX with regards to my education comment... but to be honest, most pilots at CX have no choice BUT to be a pilot as their career (either for CX or other airlines) or they can start their own business but that's a different story... for others especially those who are from the cadet background or the younger generation of pilots, they do have many other alternatives careers that offer better pay and career potential (especially when taking the total compensation over your lifetime into consideration)... so for us, we do have to consider that when we look at our career for the next 30 years (taking into account age 65 and the delay in command, etc). Ones does not want to stuck at a dead end career without the proper compensation. Ones does not want to get stuck in a pilot career at CX when it is too late to switch your profession.

[mrfox]

Nett feeling is that many LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them

Let’s think about this statement carefully.
Are you saying then, that there’s actually NOTHING in it for a LEP for joining the AOA, and the LEPs should just join for the sake of solidarity?
That is exactly what we are afraid of.

The percentage of LEPS who joined then only to leave, when 5% subs to support our fallen colleagues was asked for, was far greater than the % of expat pilots, who by the way also quit in droves. Both of which showed lack of moral fibre.

I’m sure you realize that subs are calculated based on salary, and is exclusive of any allowances. The relative burden of subs is much more significant on local (and based) pilots than those with said allowances. The difference for a LEP may just be what is needed for mortgage or school fees instead.

[ZimmerFly]

A sound analysis mrfox :}

[mephisto88]

Mr Fox - I can not argue with your two points.

However, whilst I said "...LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them", it takes a lateral thinking person to see the bigger picture and ascertain that the gain may not be immediate or substantial in nature, and sometimes the gain may only be for the group as a whole and not the individual.

That many do not join is indicitive of the mentality that one frequently sees everyday in the streets, trains and shops of HK. I'm sure you know the one I mean, its the "lateral blinkers/me only/me first" type of attitude.

Secondly, having been paying in excess of $6000 per month, I was only too aware that it was based on salary. However, I would like to think that were I to have been one of the 49'ers, that my colleagues would not have deserted me in my moment of need, when the AOA asked us to go on 95% salary to help those unfortunate few whose income stream suddenly went to ZER0 % !!

For me personally, I never had an end date to stop payment, as it felt lucky that I was still in a position to help when it could so easily have been me and it was a moral obligation, the right thing to do, you know - old fashioned principles - the sort us old farts go on about from time to time.
What did dissapoint me was the large% exodus of LEP's, (and expats to a lesser degree) when they were asked to honour the other side of the bargain.

So I'll stick with my opinion of "Freeloaders", which also applies to the expat quitters too (just in case the LEPs think this a race thing - which it is not and never was)

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

Wowpeter...... Point taken.....But you do miss my point
I am merely saying that yes, as money is really the only important thing for locals,( in most cases, and yourself as you admit) to decide which career to take, why bother even flying if you know that you can get a better package doing the job you were originally trained for..... And spent yr parents hard earned money on the Degrees. It is the genuine love of flying that gets most people this job. If recruiting had any idea they would be screening those who may be a waste of training money in the long run, as they would eventually leave to work in another industry.
Times may be changing , but for me, this carrer is not one that you can just chop and change because it pays ****tte.

" stuck in a pilot career at CX"......... Like i said....... Pilot Career is what it is......

PS.... Due to my inadequate education, can someone tell me how to quote threads in the blue quote boxes ?? I'm too stoooopid.

[14MonthInterview]

Sleeve of wizard,

I think you're missing the point of what wowpeter is trying to say. If you read again, you'll see that he says many of the LEPs (I'm not suggesting all, there are always exceptions and 'job hunters' do slip through the recruitment net) had a genuine passion for flying when signing up for the cadet scheme. And if you look at most of us locals, you will find many of us had taken aviation very seriously at tertiary level already, with degrees in aeronautical engineering, aviation degree programs with ATPL's etc etc, many hold PPL's & CPL's prior to joining the cadet program. So for all those who like to tell cadets, "try paying for your own training", to justify their 'right' to an expat contract at CX (again I'm not suggesting anyone here makes such comments, but sadly I have certainly heard these said amongst recent/current DESOs...try convincing a LEP to join the AOA after hearing this sort of garbage, so that the AOA can negotiate a better housing deal for this expat?). I think many ex cadets may take offense to that when they had to complete such a course twice in some instances.

So, for some, upon realisation when you have embarked on this career choice that the future of your choosen career (aviation, to spell it out to you!) does not afford the lifestyle or meet the expectations that you had aspired to, then I think wowpeter has a prudent point that one must also assess the possibilities of a career change. If you take the average local SO who joins at the age of 22/23 after completing their degree, does a 65 retirement age (of course at the moment this is just hypothetical) only allow you to have 1 career and 1 company in 43 years?:=

[iceman50]

Just to stir the pot.

Were these conditions of employment not explained at interview? Were they not accepted? Perhaps some people need to look outside the world of Hong Kong and see what is going on in the real world.
There also needs to be sensible career aspirations, I'll have a command in ten years from joining as a cadet and if I don't then this is a bad career, get real!

If there were so many highly qualified pilots why did they not join other airlines?

[mrfox]

For me personally, I never had an end date to stop payment, as it felt lucky that I was still in a position to help when it could so easily have been me and it was a moral obligation, the right thing to do, you know - old fashioned principles - the sort us old farts go on about from time to time.

Yes, you are lucky. Consider those who cannot spare the extra income. I'm not saying whether it was the right thing to do to abandon your union obligations when times are tough. But if you had to choose between the union vs housing your family or schooling your kids, which would you choose? Yes, money can be THAT TIGHT without a housing or education allowance, which amounts to more than a doubling of income.

I was not around during the 49ers dispute. But some of us do hold "old fashioned principles" when a colleague falls upon hard times. It was an individual choice and we asked for nothing back in return.

it takes a lateral thinking person to see the bigger picture and ascertain that the gain may not be immediate or substantial in nature, and sometimes the gain may only be for the group as a whole and not the individual.

I agree that collective bargaining is the only defense against the adversarial management. As "Mr Wizard" had rightly pointed out, we are but blue collar workers who are interchangeably replaceable, and therefore our negotiating powers as individuals are weak. However, we are also concerned whether we can trust the AOA either. Are we really considered as part of the "group" you mentioned? It is very difficult to believe, when the prevailing attitudes, shown all too well by these forums, is that LEPs are lowly peasants who are lucky to be in this job. Tolerated, but will always be - "just a local".

The current policy, where subs are based on salary exclusive of allowances, and LEPs (and based pilots) effectively pay higher contributions as a percentage of total income, simply illustrates the fact that the AOA chooses to ignore the issue entirely.

"The issue of greatest concern to you is unimportant to us, as you are in the minority. However please come join and pay us your dues anyway, and we will fight together for marginal improvements while ignoring the 50% pay disparity."

[Dixi Normus]

controlledCHAOS said:
Mate, it is pretty obvious (to everyone) that you local Chinese are being discriminated against. If I were you guys, I'll stage some kind of a "walk-off" to show my anger.

So the LEP should do a "sick out" or something by themselves without the support of their fellow pilots? This illustrates the underlying sentiment of the AOA; locals should fight their own battles. However the LEPs are expected to join any industrial action in support of the expats COS. Sound like the "Bay of Pigs". The LEP will get more support from wearing a jock strap than from the AOA. Nuff said.

[Liam Gallagher]

You need to get your head around some basic facts and man-up;

1. Ex-pat allowances are not Salary... fact.. Some like to few them as income... good luck to them.... However, anyone taking that view is on a very slippery slope.

2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact. If ex-Pat allowances are not paid, HK would not get the talent it requires to be as successful as it is.... fact... However, this is changing as local talent comes through.... that's progress... all have to deal with it...

3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.

4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...

5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.

We all make choices; some are well researched, others are based on luck... either way deal with it... but don't come on here blubbing like a Princess..

[mrfox]

You need to get your head around some basic facts and man-up;

1. Ex-pat allowances are not Salary... fact.. Some like to few them as income... good luck to them.... However, anyone taking that view is on a very slippery slope.

Salary. Remuneration. Income. Money. Are you arguing semantics just for the sake of arguing?

2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact.

Hence the invention of Labor unions and collective bargaining.

3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.

OK so no one is to renegotiate a better COS after signing on?

4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...

You may be content with the AOA the way as it is. I am not.

5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.

Again, market forces vs barriers of entry vs collective bargaining. ECON 101.

We all make choices; some are well researched, others are based on luck... either way deal with it... but don't come on here blubbing like
a Princess..

If my replies sound terse, it is because your attacks are borderline personal and not appreciated.

[BusyB]

Mr Fox, Dixi Normus,

When the AOA represented the LEPs over bypass allowances not one affected person was prepared to put their name to it. That meant that the earliest backpay date possible was JULY. If one who was owed for longer than that had been prepared to put his name to it it would have gone back further.

I resent the implication that the AOA does nothing for you.:=

[mrfox]

I resent the implication that the AOA does nothing for you.

Over the past few years, the LPF has been consistently updating its members regarding its efforts for the LEP. I had not been aware of any direct AOA involvement until recently.
BusyB, perhaps you can post a timeline of the efforts of the AOA in securing the above agreements?

[Liam Gallagher]

Your replies don't sound terse... just shallow...

Learn to deal with things as they are; not as you want them to be... it will save you a lot of angst and enable you to focus on what is important.

"Salary. Remuneration. Income. Money. Are you arguing semantics just for the sake of arguing.."

Not semantics... far from it... Husbands and wives/ unmarried couples don't get fired/ jailed for each collecting a salary; but they do for both collecting housing. A-scalers are out favour due to their high salary, but pilots with 3 kids collecting Education and Rental are not prejudiced against. Not expressing any judgement on these examples; just stating facts.

A question for you (or anybody else)...

If a LEP pilot on by-pass gets a payment to compensate him for the Housing Allowance he is not receiving because of delayed Command; would you support the notion that by-passed based ex-pat pilots should also get a payment to compensate them for the Housing and Education allowance they are not getting because of their delayed Commands (assuming they are prepared to come to HK)?

[BusyB]

Mr fox,

I've told you what has recently been done for you.

Now you tell me what you have achieved for yourselves:confused:

[SMOC]

Now you tell me what you have achieved for yourselves

I believe the LPF got the 24K special allowance (It's not housing and not pegged to inflation) for Local Level D Captains.

[wowpeter]

Sleeve_of_Wizard... Flight crew recruitment do have a pretty good idea of what they are doing, and that's why most cadet succeed in their career at CX. And most LEP definitely did not join because of the money and money is not everything... If it is because of the money, I will have never quit my previous job to come work for CX... I have taken a paycut to do this job... and a lot of others as well... again, as I have said, it is because of our love for aviation, not unlike most expat pilot... However, that's where the similarity ends... a lot of LEP look at their career path differently than an expat pilot... Most expat pilot looks at their career as an airline pilot (Cathay, or any other major careers)... so once the expat pilot lands their CX job, they are more likely to stay as they have worked for the past 7 to 10 years to just get to the job at Cathay Pacific... Even if an expat is to leave, they will only do so if they can land another job at another major carriers. Locals is a little bit different, a lot of locals who job CX are relatively early in their career path... for most, this could be their first or second real job after graduations... hence, when locals look at their career, most of us will consider other alternatives as well... afterall, no one should make a decision to work for a company for 30 to 40 years without considering other alternatives that might allow you to have a better career in aviation or other fields.

BusyB... As for the other comments with regards to AOA trying to fight for the by-pass pay allowance package for LEP FO... have the AOA try to contact those FO who might or might not be on the AOA? I personally donno any LEP FO who are recieving by-pass pay... but I know if I am one of them, I will definitly put my hand up, but unfortunately, I am no where near that stage of my career yet... I have a feelings that the reason why no one put their hands up is because none of those LEP FO are part of the AOA and probably do not even know the AOA are trying to do something for them. So I don't think it is because local doesn't want to stand up and achieve something for themselves. I for one if the AOA is willing to fight for a few of the local issues, namely the instructor pilot program (and how these can get expat package, when they are sponsor by CX... [discriminating again local cadet pilot?]) and the LEP allowance, I will put my hands up right away and a lot of locals that I know will probably do the same as well... I think the local issue that AOA is fighting only involve a very small group of locals at the moment and a lot of them are not AOA members and hence none of them have any idea about this issue...

Liam Gallagher... your so call facts are very twisted...
1) Expat allowance... is part of your pay package... hence it is partly taxable income according to HK tax rule (not all of them taxable but most of them)... so it is part of your pay but it is not pay directly to you as cash... so it does matters...

2) 2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact. If ex-Pat allowances are not paid, HK would not get the talent it requires to be as successful as it is.... fact... However, this is changing as local talent comes through.... that's progress... all have to deal with it...
I keep hearing this over and over again... but to attract talent, it does not means you need to discriminate against a particular group of pilots... if the current pay structure is not sufficient enough to attract expat, then increase the base pay until it is enough... this is exactly what most banks and multi-national corporations have done over the years... CX is one of the few remaining companies (namely the swire ones) that still offer the so call ex-Pat package to divide and conquer their pilots... although having said that, the anti-discrimination law in HK is slowly moving towards the right direction, give it another 10 years, I am sure the whole expat package will be completely illegal...

3) 3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.
Hum... no one is trying to play the race card... I don't think anyone said expat should not get their allowance... all I am saying is the LEP should get it if they are living in HK... most of the time it is the expat that is playing the race card by saying that local does not deserve to get the allowance... does it hurts them that a group of pilot is trying to better their package? No... so why some expat find it so offensive that local are just trying to better their package, exactly like what the expat is trying to do... So why such a big fuss?

4)4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...
What's wrong with blubbing on a pilot rumors network? hum...

5) 5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.
So who is playing the race card now? Who thinks their training is more superior to others? Also if you want to talk about paying for your own training or a military career, I can write a huge essay about why that is irrelevant (especially when the company is sponsoring the instructor program with expat benefits on return to CX... also most cadets have pay for their previous flying training experience [PPL, CPL, etc... not unlike most expat]...)
Most of the time, LEP have no complains about expat pilots... we never judge their experience and their flying... because we know they are irrelevant... what is your background should not determine your package if you are doing the same job... A lot of the times, I think it is because of the expat mentality that is dividing the whole pilot group and dividing the AOA... especially when ones think they deserve better than others (DEFO, Oasis DEC... those pilots did nothing wrong, it is not their fault that the company hires them... it is the company fault that they bend the contract and it is our fault that we let CX do it...)... but because of this constant arguing over stuff like this, we can never get a consent and never achieve anything with the company... everyone should have the mentality that is... same job same pay/package... it shouldn't matter where are they coming from...

[Liam Gallagher]

I think you are missing some important issues.

Companies employ from 2 markets, ex-pat and local. The market norm (globally) is that for a company (Bank, Hospital, Education Authority, Factory... etc) to entice an employee out of his home country, the company pays a Housing Allowance, Education and probably an enhanced salary. This person is generally known as an "expat". Those employed from the local market (these can be indigenous people or foreigners) are known as "locally employed" and are not paid the allowances and may be paid a lesser salary. That is the way life is...FACT

The company pays this premium to attract the talent it requires; it doesn't do it out of some colonial racism or to divide a workforce. The day they don't need ex-pats or the day the premium is no longer required, is the day this all stops and their profits increase.... FACT

You say, why not just increase the Base pay until talent is attracted? Some companies do; but by doing so they, generally, only attract a certain type of person. This system is unattractive to people with school aged children, and would favour single people or people staying for a short time. Equally, it is inflexible to meet the changing needs of employees (arrival of kids.... <ahem> departure of wives etc)

CX have chosen their way to get talent and it suits them... that is their right. Both you and I had a Contract put in front of us that we both willingly signed... did you express all your views at time of signing... if not.. why not?

On the points you raised and using the same numbering;

1. If these allowances are pay... why can't husband and wives both claim them. I don't have kids, my friend has 3, how come he's "paid" more than me?
Why does the Mortagage Allowance only last 15 years; if it's pay, it should last all my career..

2. Who is being discriminated against. If it is you... why did you join? HK is changing and perhaps the day is coming when ex-pat allowances will no longer need to be paid, however in the present day do you believe CX could recruit and, more importantly, retain sufficient numbers of pilots without the allowances.

3. Mrfox put out some fairly emotive stuff and certainly played the race card. Unfortunately, remuneration is not about what is deserved... if it was Nurses and Teachers would be paid more than us:eek: If you wish to seek to improve your package, go ahead... but don't do it by saying the fact you don't get X Y or Z is because of your racial background.

4. Blubbing is never allowed... look between your legs and grow a pair.. (even if you are female)

5. How the heck is what I wrote racist? How the heck is what I wrote a comment on the quality of someone's training or background? Calm down and re-read it.

Finally, a question for you. You are a qualified pilot; your skills are globally in demand. What package would it take for you to go to Emirates?

PS I only chose Emirates because it is an airline that's comparable to CX.

[mrfox]

I've told you what has recently been done for you.

Now you tell me what you have achieved for yourselves


BusyB,

The reason I brought up the matter of AOA contribution is because of the following post, wayyy back from the first page of this thread:


There are some LEPs I have spoken to who claim the AOA are taking credit for what the local pilot committee essentially negotiated and it wasn't until the deal was nearly done that the AOA stepped in completed the final touches.
Whether or not this is entirely true, it seems to be the feeling amongst the locals and it will take a lot more than this to get the locals to rejoin/join the AOA.


Liam,

Not semantics... far from it... Husbands and wives/ unmarried couples don't get fired/ jailed for each collecting a salary; but they do for both collecting housing.

And thus, this should not be counted as part of one's income because...?

A-scalers are out favour due to their high salary, but pilots with 3 kids collecting Education and Rental are not prejudiced against. Not expressing any judgement on these examples; just stating facts.

Not facts, but merely your opinion. And not one we all share.
I hold no prejudice against anyone who is on a better package.
It appears though that many on the better packages holds prejudice to those on inferior packages.

Mrfox put out some fairly emotive stuff and certainly played the race card.

Racism and prejudice are two different things. Perhaps the following edit would clear up my intentions with the original analogy.

...Reaching the COCKPIT, I was stopped by AN EXPAT. "Are you A LOCAL?" he demanded. Without a word, I SHOWED him my FLYING ABILITIES/YEARS OF SERVICE. He looked at it and then spat out: "Yes, but you are still A LOCAL!"...

Who is being discriminated against. If it is you... why did you join?

Why did people join on the B-scale post 93, or on the freighter scale?

If a LEP pilot on by-pass gets a payment to compensate him for the Housing Allowance he is not receiving because of delayed Command; would you support the notion that by-passed based ex-pat pilots should also get a payment to compensate them for the Housing and Education allowance they are not getting because of their delayed Commands (assuming they are prepared to come to HK)?

To be honest, the way this housing/bypass issue is being put forth is muddling the interests of the different groups even futher... I'd rather wish they had attacked the manner in a different way.
But to answer your question - yes, I'll support motions that strive towards bringing the Cathay pilot groups on to a common remuneration package, bringing with it greater solidarity and collective bargaining power.


Finally, a question for you. You are a qualified pilot; your skills are globally in demand. What package would it take for you to go to Emirates?

For me it’s simple.

EK package + merits of living in Dubai > CX package + merits of living in HK + sunk cost of relocating family from HK + sunk cost of seniority in CX.

Now tell me... do the priorities of a "Local" really seem that different from that of an "Expat"?

[wowpeter]

Liam Gallagher...
This is an argument that is never going to end... you think I am missing the point... and I think you are missing my point as well...

As I have said before in all of my earlier post in this topic... Cathay (and Swire) is one of the few company in HK that still employs the whole expat package and local package... if you look at most other companies in other industries that employs a lot of expat, there is no such thing as expat package... expat and local get the same package... as long as expat and local are on the same level staff, they get the same benefits... simply as that... and this is exactly what the locals will want to see Cathay adopts...

Also another ticking point that piss off a lot of locals is how the company use expat and local package to distinguish expat and local staff but in fact, it is all smoke and mirrors... the whole expat and local are used to divide the pilot group (ie: so that LEP won't join the AOA), it has nothing to on being expat or not... Some good example is why are pilots hired to local terms (ie: ex-Oasis guys) are allow to convert back to expat package after 3 years? Why aren't the LEP locals on locals terms be allow to convert to expat package? What are so different between ex-Oasis and LEP besides the fact that one is a gweilo and one happens to born in HK? You even said it in your last post, if foreigner are hired from the local market, they are consider locally employed... So why are they getting special treatment? Is this not discrimination? Also, why are those who are on the instructor program, allow to be paid expat package? They aren't really the traditional expat per say... they are CX sponsored pilot... they are not qualified pilot before their sponsorship so they are no different than most locals... so why should they be on expat package? I thought the whole point of expat is that they brings valuable skills that is otherwise not available in HK... but this doesn't really apply to those who are hired for the instructor program, does it?... so why are they getting special treatment as well? Isn't this discrimination as well? (There's a lot of other issues related to the instructor program that sit on the grey area of the law that I will not mention until I consult with AOA and an employment law expert...) So for me, it is the bending of the rules by CX management, that pisses me off... the CX management themselves have blur the difference between an expat and locals... and since there is really no difference between local and expat (based on all the new initiative by CX management), they should therefore be on the same package... all the excuses that the management gives to LEP during the local pilot forum about why LEP are not eligible for expat allowance are no longer valid (CX management are the ones who invalidate all of their own arguments)... hence it gives those who are on local terms more reason to fight for equal pay.

A lot of the time, we LEP are not happy because the ex-cadet (all LEP) are always being put at the bottom of the food chain... even the new instructor program, DEFO at out port, and those ex-Oasis direct entry guys, are higher up on the food chain than we ex-cadet... this is what piss me off... and this is the kind of stuff that AOA need to look into if they want more LEP on AOA... I for one, will be writing to AOA shortly regarding a lot of these issues that I have mentioned... and hopefully stuff like the above issues, will one day be put onto the AOA agenda and thus encourages more LEP to join the AOA.

[Dragon69]

For me it’s simple.

EK package + merits of living in Dubai > CX package + merits of living in HK + sunk cost of relocating family from HK + sunk cost of seniority in CX.



So let me get this straight...you are not willing to make any sacrifices to better your career, you simply want to stay in your own comfort surroundings close to family and friends and receive the same package that is entitled to those who made the sacrifice to live abroad to better their career.

You think Hong Kong is an easy place to live for most expats...what Dubai is to you, Hong Kong is to me. I stay because of the package, take away the expat benefits and I'll be out of here faster than Adolf Chen can hand out Lai Sees.

[Dragon69]

Furthermore, following some of the above arguments, what about our based colleagues then, shouldn't they be entitled to what you already receive living in your home country (ie. 13 months and a special allowance for those who are captain). In fact you pay a much less tax rate in Hong Kong, compared to anywhere else, so why not adjust the based salaries to reflect the higher income tax. After all they are doing the same job as you, it's only fair, but I don't see you complaining about that!

[mephisto88]

Wowpeter,

Firstly, before you hook into the following thinking it is a race thing, please appreciate it is not, as my comments which follow with reference to cadets are applicable to the white fellas too, not just HK locals. Unfortunately, my bullsh:mad:t antenna started twitching after reading some of your views, likewise, these are just views, albeit mine.

Clearly HK has been unable to recruit from traditional feeder areas such as military and GA within HK, because to all intents and purposes, it didn't, nor is it likely, to exist. Therefore the company needed to recruit from elsewhere.

These elsewhere places had pilots with varying experience levels and quite diverse backgrounds. The company was, and still is to a degree, able to cherry pick those it wanted, but to entice, had to make the package attractive. So as said pilots were often in their home country living in what we would call a normal house, big back yard, maybe a swimming pool, nice schools etc, in order to provide a similar environment in HK, the allowances for a decent school and accomodation something better than a 760sq ft shoe box were, and still are provided.

Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan:ok:.

By comparison, many of the cadets had nothing to offer by way of a proven track record, and the cynic would say it was either a cheap way of putting bums on seats, or a political move with the cadet programme inception in the late 80's, as the 97 handover was coming soon, and Swires wished to stay in favour with the new masters up North. Either way, apart from a few exceptions, the new cadets generally bought very little to the party and effectively were there to make up the numbers. Thats not meant to be a put down, its just the way it was. If you think that your extra experience over the years is worth extra, what do you think has happend to the experience levels of the expats you've been sitting next to? Obviously that increases too, is it worth more? yes - ergo the salary increments. So sorry mate, that in itself a flawed argument to justify more moolah for the ex-cadets, and still doesnt justify the housing and schooling.

The commonly held view at the time was that local candidate would have been living with mum, dad, his sister and granny in the afore mentioned shoebox, and should be eternally grateful to CX for offering a job to someone who couldn't even fly. I admit in the early days, a few individuals had some experience, but this pool rapidly dried up.
However, lack of experience, marital staus for many and maturity, meant that cadets were happy to sign up for the package knowing they were 'local' and by default on local terms. Therefore, it seems a little late in the day to say we should all be treated equally when you knowingly agreed to the terms and conditions offered at the time. As pilots, we spend a lot of time thinking of 'wotifs" and looking ahead. If you couldn't look ahead and see that if you end up with your own wife (or someone elses:})and kid and THEN realise you were going to have to pay for your own accom and schooling (like most people in HK!!), then what does that say about your abilities/potential as a pilot/future captain - not a lot from where I'm sitting.

So suck it up or leave!

What it comes down to is the guys hired from overseas are compensated for the experience and skills they bring, whereas the guys who elect to go through the cadet programme offered nothing but potential, and were paid accordingly. In many ways, that your basic salary scale is on a par with experienced crew hired from elsewhere, could even be thought as generous on the part of the company. Anecdotally, at the inception of the programme, the precurser to B scales was discussed, such that after promotion to FO, the scale for ex cadet FOs was to be different(less!) than normal FOs. Clearly this penny pinching never came to fruition, but shows the esteem, or lack thereof, that some at the time held you in.

As always, if the company thought you were worth more, you would be paid more. That you are not paid more, will show effectively what you are now worth - the phrase 'market forces' spring to mind. Many local term guys from the cadet programme still seem to have tickets on themselves, and seriously think that from the outset they should have been on the same package as the guys who uprooted their wife and kids to move to HK. That attitude is a little ironic when many locals think the expats are up themselves.

I assume you liked the job to start with which is why you signed up. I can appreciate that ones expectations and aspirations can change with marital changes, kids, maturity etc, and it is natural to always want more.
This company is unlikely to just give you more, so it leaves you with 2 options: either appreciate it for what it is, take the money offered and live with it, OR, take the skills and relatively limited experience you have gained over your time in CX and head off into the real world and get the job you think you deserve. If you did, you may face a harsh reality check that you really are not as valuable or experienced as you think you are.

However, I genuinely wish you the best of luck in your endeavours in the harsh wide world of aviation if you feel brave enough to compete with all the others on your own merits, on a perceived level playing field. You may find that too is sloped - no pun intended.

Brgds to all.

[Liam Gallagher]

I think this a worthy debate and I am trying to get my head around your argument.

I note you are in the AOA; if that works for you... well played you....

You say "the whole expat and local are used to divide the pilot group (ie: so that LEP won't join the AOA), it has nothing to on being expat or not.."

The primary, if not sole, reason for the expat package is to recruit and retain talent in HK. You claim Swire is one of the few Companies to pay an expat package; I must be mixing with the wrong group in HK. Major Banks, Law Firms, Insurance Companies, ESF, Universities all entice people to HK with a package (better than mine normally:rolleyes:). Typically, they seem to stay a year or 2 and some then go to another country, again on an ex-pat package.

Again the question to you are Mrfox, if the package was not paid, would CX recruit and retain enough pilots? It's a simple question... any chance of answer.

Whilst we all have issues with the way the ex-Oasis recruiting has been handled; my understanding is they were recruited essentially on COS08 and as such they do "three years" and then can come to HK (as whatever seniority will allow) and they will get the ex-pat package (whatever that will be in 3 years:eek:). I find this consistent with CX recruitment policy. It would be interesting if an ex-cx cadet left CX, joined Oasis and then rejoined Cx and was told he was back on local terms.... has that happened?

As for the Instructor program, are you saying that if you have a Chinese face you don't the expat package, and if you have another sort of face you do? Or is it the case that if you meet the requirements for DESO and then join the Instructor Program your "career" progress is preserved as if you had beome a DESO?

Bottom line; I hear accusations of racism, sexism, ageism all the time on the flightdeck.... we are all victims... Most of the time CX is just doing what is in the contract... did any of us raise this at time of signing; have any of us been up to NR's office... or do we just come on here blubbing....

Spare me Mrfox's cute (but shallow) answer... Again, you guys are all respected, highly qualified aviators: what would it take for you to go Emirates... Housing Yes or No... Education Yes or No, Bonus at the completion of Contract (3 years) Yes or No.... or are you saying... if a local UAE doesn't get the allowance; I don't want it either.....

Go on, surprise me and give a substantive answer...

[iLuvPX]

I dont get what all the debate is about. Its quite simple.

We are all the same in the company's. An LEP in the cockpit does the same job as a crusty ole brit. You cant be a better pilot than someone else in the airlines. A to B, thats it, thats all that counts. Not background, smoothness, detailed briefs, or long sleeves.

Therefore we should ALL get paid the same. If CX paided for an LEP's training, then they should pay that back, but not get paid less for doing the same job.

If you want to use the argument of "attracting qualified pilots" therefore have to pay expat rates...then CX should set pilot pay per a lottery. See who will take the least amount of pay to do the job. Im sure its easier to attract pilots now compared to 20 years ago, therefore all new joiners should get paid LESS. Simple economics. Same seat, Same pay...sound familar?

The AOA cant even help itself, let alone others. Why should LEPs join? To help expats get more pay???? :ugh:

[Dragon69]

Therefore we should ALL get paid the same.


But we do get paid the same! Expats however, rightly so, receive an additional expat package for being in HKG. This package however, rightly so, is not available to me should I be based in my home country.

It is simple isn't!:ugh:

[Liam Gallagher]

Same question to you then...

If CX moved to a same pay for all... ie no ex-pat allowances, would it recruit and retain enough pilots, Cabin Crew* and Engineers*? Yes or No....?

* Extended the question for them as well..... same team: same dream and all that cr@p....

[wowpeter]

Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan.

Another one of those who thinks expat are better... and that LEP does not deserve what they are pay for... for me, I have no problem with your expat pay and allowance... I have never questions ur abilities on the job... however, only you have questions ours but our abilities are no less than yours... I really don't understand some expat mentality really. Why do you think expat are the only one who protect Cathays safe reputation? Are you implying LEP are not safe pilot? This single comment tell me how arrogant you are.


Major Banks, Law Firms, Insurance Companies, ESF, Universities all entice people to HK with a package (better than mine normally).

They offer package to expat but they are the same package that will be offer to locals... For me, I do have a lot of families and friends who are in banking, law firms and especially insurance companies executives... everyone is on a different pay grade (kinda like CX office staff, where you have Grade A, B, C, D, E level staff)... but expat does not get better package than locals who are on the same grade level... most expat might join as a mid-level staff so their starting benefits will be better than most locals who joins at the bottom of the company... but once a local reaches the same level as the expat, they have the same benefits... so when banks (or others) are offering package to attract overseas people to work in HK, they are indeed offering the package that is good enough for someone to move to HK... but the same package can be obtain as well for locals who join at the same grade... and this is what I am talking about... so I think you are a bit confuse on what I am referring to.

As for the instructor program... I am saying why the inconsistency on offering expat package to this specific group of pilot? This particular group of pilot can be both locals or foreigners (majority foreigners though, with only a few with HKID)... but they are not the traditional expat because when they join this program, they are just like any cadet applicants with no previous flying experience. Even those who happens to have some flying experience will not be enough to apply for the DESO position at CX. So CX is willing to sponsor these applicants and offer them expat package and yet they are telling cadet who joins on the same qualification that they can only have local terms? As many of the expat who posted on this topic, the reason why expat are supposedly worth more is because they are bring their experience to HK where otherwise it will not be available here. But if they are not really bring those experience to HK, why pay them the premium? I am simply using your own argument here... I know life is not fair, but it doesn't hurt to try to get more if you can... also this simple actions by the company gave LEP a reason why we should ask for more from the company. As we can see from the company's action, they are willing to pay more but they will not do so unless they have do... which tells me there is room for negotiations for LEP...


Finally, for all those expat who reply to this post...
For those of you who thinks I am playing the race card... the same can be said about your strong objections on why LEP does not deserve to fight for a better package from the company... is it because of race or is it because you are just being defensive about your own status quo and you do not want anyone catching up to your package? What does this say about you? Does it hurt you that LEP want to fight for the same package? As I have said many many times again, I have no problem with expat getting what they are getting... in none of my argument has I ask for the expat allowance to be dropped... (I am simply saying we should have a single HK package for all pilots)... you guys spend most of your career trying to get into CX and good for you that you made it here and you deserve what you get pay... as for me being a LEP, I will continue to fight for a better package but at least I know I will never undermine my fellow colleagues (expat or local) for their fight to get a better package... and in fact, I will support the expat fight for a better package (example will be your housing allowance when it comes up for renegotiation) even if it does not have an immediate impact on my own package...


For those who continually believe that expat pilots are superior to local pilots... all I have to say is that, this is your personal opinions and I can never change that... there is certain standard at CX, I am sure if you does not meet those standard, it doesn't matter are you local or expat, you will be chop... so I am sure those who meet the standard are qualified pilots... as for who is better? Neither... I have flown with some awesome local pilots and I have flown with some awesome expat pilots... being good or not have nothing to do with your background or how many years you have been flying... so I guess everyone should just tone down on their superiority complex... We are pilot and we always thinks we are better than others... it must be our type A personality... but everyone is only doing the same job really...

Anyway, thanks for this discussion... laters

[Noskcid]

Okay I am not taking any sides here but just trying to justify the reasons on both sides. This will also be me first and last post here as I am not here for an argument (plus the fact I got no right to argue with you guys). Firstly as Wowpeter says most LEP are technically not locals being they reside out side HK for most their lives. I have an example for this.

A friend of mine held a CPL and ATPL, and also a civil engineers degree paying a lot more (the civil eng degree is not important in here, I just thought I’d mention it as he was getting paid over 100K AUD already which is how he paid for the CPL and ATPL) and went through the cadet course a few years ago and hired as a LEP. He has lived in Australia since grade one and used to the life style of big house, swimming pool, tennis courts, a few cars in the house hold etc. etc. but wait he holds a HKID. He loved aviation so hence changed jobs. So is he an Expat?????

Yes? – He is moving from hes country, Australia from the life style he is used to (big house, swimming pool, big backyard etc.)

No? – He doesn’t have the experience that Expats are paid for.

Im not even going to comment on that one it’s so…. on the grey line, but hes considered not because the mere fact he holds a HKID, even though hes in the same condition as all the other Expats (moving away from family and friends etc.)

Now the instructor course, what?? They are Expats?? How they also hold HKID oh wait they have the experience. So lets do some calculations, when they do become instructor for 5 yrs and lets say they do 2 flights a day 1.5 each. So that’s 1.5*2*7*52 = 1092*5 = 5460HRs with say ¾ of that in command = 4095hrs. Whereas if you come in as a cadet you will have had just what was done in training. I know some people that do the cadet course already hold an instructors rating so what difference does it make them to these instructors? So are they expats??

Yes? – They have over 5000hrs in total and over 4000 in command. This is also a underestimate although I did a calculation on 7 days they may have a day or two off, but from what I heard a lot of instructors fly 4-5 times a day, which will bring the hrs a lot higher than 5000hrs. But cadets only have what is provide in training.

No? – They hold a HKID.

Once again no comment.


I think all Wowpeter is trying to say is that yes it is fair that expats get paid more initially for you to settle down in HK and also for their experience, but once the cadet has had command for a certain time then they will also have the experience the expat/ instructor has had, so should then be put up to the same scale and allowances.

But after saying that I have to say yes initially experience does count (eg, cadet SO and a DESO with 4000hrs in their second flight, gets in a steamy situation, who would do a better job in that situation ?? I think we can all answer that, so hence they get paid more for the experience) and the one who started with more experience will always have more than the other, but the question is how much does this extra experience count?? When its 600hrs V.S say 6000hrs (cadet v.s DESO/DEFO) Yes that would matter, but when its Thousands of hours each with a difference of say 3000hrs ie. 20 000hrs V.S 23 000hrs, with the same two guys the original cadet and the DESO/DEFO, does it matter then on experience??? Shouldn’t they be put on the same (they both have 1000's of hrs of experience now??) I think this is the type of thing Wowpeter means.


FYI im just a wannabe also who just applied for the cadet program living overseas for my entire life holding a HKID and will be hired as an LEP if successful. Personally to me $$ is not the big factor to applying for this, it is what someone mentioned earlier (to want to fly and love for aviation) as I can tell you in my job which I just resigned from within the next few yrs I can achieve the pay scale of a captain. So I will accept that I will be hired as a LEP and I think it’s worth it to take a pay cut and to do something I want to do, not for the money but for the flying, and I understand all the sacrafices that must be made to acheive this 'theres no free lunch'. I have heard so many people telling me to not join and not even apply etc. etc. but none of that has affected me, so go ahead who ever wants to have a blast at me on what I said above do so, I just think that this is all very grey and what is the point of arguing on it when its not going to make a difference here regardless who wins the argument. Nothing in this world is fair, if you want to do something then accept what it gives you for doing the job and if you’re not happy with this then move on.

Just think thou, if I didn’t hold a HKID I would have had to get the license and then apply for the entry after gaining some experience on maybe some regional flights etc. people who don’t hold a HKID don’t even have the chance to be able to fly with a carrier with no previous experience (isn’t this already a bonus?? able to join at young age for some and not having to spend years building up the experience before being able to join). This is however unfair to the ones which are many who already hold a CPL or instructors license who went through the cadet scheme. But remember one thing, at the end of the day it was their choice and they knew what they where getting into before they signed that document.

Peace out everyone J and wish me luck J

[Night Watch]

HOLY CRAP!

I start a thread about some good news...... LEPs on BPP to receive their entitled 24K allowance back dated to July.... and it turns into a school yard Expat vs. LEP (I'm better then you) girlie fight!

It was supposed to be about UNITY and LEPs having a good reason to join the AOA so we can work TOGETHER in our fight against managements interpretation of our CoS.

Enough is enough...... Together we stand divided we fall! (regardless of race, colour, experience etc etc)

[Dixi Normus]

It is really hard to have unity when when you have one group looking down on another. The LEPs are NOT asking the company to get rid of expat allowance, they just want the same allowance. Why are the expats so against this? It doesn't take away anything they have. Are they so afraid to be seen as equals to local? Is this demeaning to them? The argument of "don't like it leave" can be apply to all those moaning about CX.

[Night Watch]

Dixi Normus

I think you will find that it's a very small percentage of expat pilots that think LEPs do not deserve the same benefits (perhaps after a few years of service).

As (I hope) there is a very small percentage of LEPs that believe expats are overpaid inferior Gwilo.

Just remember this is PPRuNe.... some people say stupid things here because they are hiding behind a vale a anonymity.

[TGIG]

Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation.
mephisto88,
does that mean you can make a better bunk than a local? :}

[controlledCHAOS]

Frankly, I don't think the LEPs Captains should even get the 24K. Explain that 1 to me...If they're not getting any allowances for the time in the right seat..why is it that they suddenly entitled to 24K housing allowance now that they are a Captain? If the company wants to give them some money as a added bonus for making it to the left seat..They should call it something else. Giving it as Housing Allowance makes no sense. If I was a Captain based in Australia. What allowances do I get?

They are from Hong Kong..No Housing Allowance. That should be the AOA's stance. We need to concentrate on other important business. Not this.:ok:

[Dragon69]

The LEPs are NOT asking the company to get rid of expat allowance, they just want the same allowance. Why are the expats so against this? It doesn't take away anything they have. Are they so afraid to be seen as equals to local?


Has nothing to do with being equal or not! There are fair and realistic demands, then there are unfair and unrealistic demands. Let's have every single based pilot on a housing and educational allowance then, I am all for that, wouldn't that be nice, but is that realistic?? No! Cathay doesn't pay the expat allowances in HKG to discriminate or because they are so generous, they do so purely to keep pilots.

When the day comes and there are no expats left at CX, will you then give up your quest for expat allowances?? Is this merely a jealous outburst of "he gets paid more than me :{:{ boohoo..." /??????

[Liam Gallagher]

and a shame a few feel the need to post and run.

CC.... Wowpeter and Mrfox may know more; but I understand that a CN is classified as a Class D employee and therefore gets basic housing... I understood this to be a CX/Swire thing.... I stand-by to be corrected on this one..

Wowpeter; thought provoking post of 5:16. Looking at it from CX's point of view, if they had some sympathy with your view.. same job:same package. Would they not have to extend that to locally employed Cabin Crew and Engineers and also Managerial Staff? Where would you draw the line...

Further, do you pay single employees who live in their girlfriends/ boyfriends flat the top-whack rental allowance and the cash equivalent of 3 kids in schooling so they have parity with a married guy with 3 kids?

Are you saying that the Instructor program are differentiating between those who get the ex-pat package and those that don't solely by race... ie Chinese face= LEP terms... non-Chinese face... ex-pat?

Noskcid... Hang in there and the best of luck...

[TGIG]

I'm surprised that a positive development such as 24K extra for bypass pay LEP can bring such negative feedback. Regardless whether you are expat or local, any improvements in either conditions can only be a step in the right direction for the pilot community as a whole.
LEP may be the minority but do you think that if one part of this community gets screw it won't come back and bite you in the ass later?

[controlledCHAOS]

Easy way to solve this problem:



get rid of LEPs...



JOKE JOKE JOKE!!!!

[ACMS]

interesting reading.

Funny how I was berated for what I said !! turns out what i said was extremely tame compared to other posts in here.

Is there no justice in this cruel world.:ok:


I maintain my initial stance.

I don't feel superior to a LEP but as it stands now I am a EXPAT and to get me here CX paid an allowance. I'm not better than a LEP, just that at the time of my employment I had experiece the company WANTED, to get me here they had to pay.

It's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE PEOPLE.

As was pointed out "MARKET FORCES"

Simple hey.

Doesn't mean that the AOA cannot try for allowances for the LEP's though.

So could you all stop the racist BULLS:mad: cr:mad:

We are all CX Pilot's and together we can make it better for ALL of us.

[mephisto88]

TGIG, made I larf that did

ref the bunks - you betcha!! I can do hospital corners, apple pie, dead end (they were a favourite for the long sleeve silk jimmie-jam brigade), and for some of the nice old time skippers, an extra blanket.

Cut my teeth on bunk making on the classic, when they mainly did ULH to NAmerica and Europe in the 80's. Was the most enjoyable bit of the flight, especially as that often consisted of 5 hours in 1 seat, a whole hour off to yourself, then 5 hours in the other seat, and the last 30 mins was your own.

And to think some young lads today have a bit of a sulk or a whine when you split the aussie flights 4/4:E.
Ah the youth of today, dunno they're born, but I digress.....


And so back to the thread, as for the expat allowances issue -
simply put so they can finally understand: "you are not, so you can't have" :ugh:

Chances of Mr Swire changing that - Buckley's.
Sorry about that ol' boy, brgds.

[iceman50]

Hey wouldn't A scale and all the various benefits be great, I joined on B scale and the reduced benefits. However, I signed up and joined on B scale so I cannot complain. Wow and Fox it ain't gonna happen you accepted the LEP package end of. Not racial not looking down on LEP's just the facts. If you banker friends etc are all better paid and that is what you want go for your career change. What you have to remember is that Swire / Cathay are HK companies and they are run the way many HK companies are operated. All they are interested in is PROFITS.

[SMOC]

It would be interesting if an ex-cx cadet left CX, joined Oasis and then rejoined Cx and was told he was back on local terms.... has that happened?

Yes CX & KA ex Cadets/LEPs that joined Oasis were offered jobs back on LOCAL terms. :confused:

So apparently experience has nothing to do with being classed as a local. :=

The Level D payment is NOT housing it is called Special Allowance appears on pay slip as just that, and is taxed at the normal rate with Income.

[TGIG]

Funny that. I wonder if PC got the same as TT?
Unfortunately I have to agree nothing is gonna change

[so_tired]

this thread brings up many good points. however, i think i might be able to summarise how i feel by saying.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:zzz:

[Dixi Normus]

AOA motto: All pilots are equal but some are more equal than other.

[CXChildLabour]

Couple days out of town and this turns out to be a racist issue, funny how things work in HKG.

As far as my understanding goes, unity is what the AOA is trying to achieve. Yet, it's so bloody apparent to see why the company's divide and conquer strategy works so well for many years. A:mad:holes only looking out for his own a:mad:s, worrying about others cutting into his pie and thus hanging them out to dry.

Mark my words! UNITY WILL NEVER BE ACHIEVED IN THIS COMPANY, FORGET IT AOA, NOT WITH THE CU:mad:S WE HAVE HERE! Long live the DPA for their support for EVERYONE in their pilot group! As an AOA member, I officially have given up on helping it recruit. In fact, it would be lucky if I ain't gonna try to persuade people not to follow my footsteps in joining.

Last note for you all who has absolutely no clue about the LEP committee. IT IS NOT A UNION, so stop the bulls:mad:t about them being one. There's no union dues or anything, just a group of volunteers who tries to get a fair deal because the OFFICIAL NEGOTIATING PARTY ISN'T STANDING UP FOR THEM. Easy way to get rid of this committee, F:mad:KING REPRESENT THEM PROPERLY!!!! But it's probably too difficult of a concept to understand with so many apartments, cars, boats, ex-wives to take care of at the same time, no worries, we ain't surprised. :rolleyes:

I'm done with this post, you can blast me all you want while writing checks to your ex-wives donation fund.

[Dragon69]

Couple days out of town and this turns out to be a racist issue, funny how things work in HKG.


What part of these posts were racist :confused::confused::confused:. Or are you employing the same strategy African Americans employ, disagree with their point of view and be quickly branded a racist. :oh:

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

As we can see from the company's action, they are willing to pay more but they will not do so unless they have do... which tells me there is room for negotiations for LEP...


Finally, for all those expat who reply to this post...
For those of you who thinks I am playing the race card... the same can be said about your strong objections on why LEP does not deserve to fight for a better package from the company... is it because of race or is it because you are just being defensive about your own status quo and you do not want anyone catching up to your package? What does this say about you? Does it hurt you that LEP want to fight for the same package? As I have said many many times again, I have no problem with expat getting what they are getting... in none of my argument has I ask for the expat allowance to be dropped... (I am simply saying we should have a single HK package for all pilots)... you guys spend most of your career trying to get into CX and good for you that you made it here and you deserve what you get pay... as for me being a LEP, I will continue to fight for a better package but at least I know I will never undermine my fellow colleagues (expat or local) for their fight to get a better package... and in fact, I will support the expat fight for a better package (example will be your housing allowance when it comes up for renegotiation) even if it does not have an immediate impact on my own package...



ah, i found the quote box...... Yr right St Peter............ Join the AOA and you might have at least a slim chance of getting your concerns heard. Certainly more than not doing anything about it, or relying on yr LEP group meetings.... PC ain't there anymore ...... Right????

Noskcid..... Dickson ........ If yr friend went and got an ATPL , it's his fault he didn't join as a DESO and get expat allowances. he knew what he was signing. Like I would have signed a contract to get all my flying paid for when i was learning.

Agree totally though with the cadets getting something if the 5yr course gets Expat allowances..... I don't even think we'll see many last the 5 yrs without going crazy. If yr heart isn't in Instructing, how can you do it for 5 yrs........................

_ eveels fo draziw

[mrfox]

as for the expat allowances issue -
simply put so they can finally understand: "you are not, so you can't have"

Wow and Fox it ain't gonna happen you accepted the LEP package end of. Not racial not looking down on LEP's just the facts.

Kids, you tried your best, and you failed miserably.
The lesson is - never try.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i215/tv387711/homer_simpson.jpg


Spare me Mrfox's cute (but shallow) answer... Again, you guys are all respected, highly qualified aviators: what would it take for you to go Emirates... Housing Yes or No... Education Yes or No, Bonus at the completion of Contract (3 years) Yes or No.... or are you saying... if a local UAE doesn't get the allowance; I don't want it either.....

Go on, surprise me and give a substantive answer...

The depth of the answer given was appropriate to the depth of the question asked.

So let me get this straight...you are not willing to make any sacrifices to better your career, you simply want to stay in your own comfort surroundings close to family and friends and receive the same package that is entitled to those who made the sacrifice to live abroad to better their career.

And what exactly, were the "sacrifices" you made? Did it have anything to do with, say, quality of life, monetary and emotional cost of uprooting family and self, and restarting at the bottom of the ladder due to loss of seniority and rank? Sounds familiar?

And was it because of the fact that the Cathay package can offset the above negatives that you decided to jump ship?

Please do tell if you came for more noble reasons, so we can all appreciate your "sacrifice".

You think Hong Kong is an easy place to live for most expats...what Dubai is to you, Hong Kong is to me.

Lemme tell ya, we have it great here. You have no idea!

Because as "Locals", we enjoy many advantages which makes Hong Kong just heaven on earth for us!

Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head:
-A unique biological preference for small living spaces. The smaller the better.
-Kids with 4 digit IQs, making education irrelevant.
-An in-built pollution filter, located between the esophagus and the lungs. Ask us to show you next time!
-And the fantastic ability to grow money on trees!

Come on, tell us what YOU love about Hong Kong!

Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan.

By comparison, many of the cadets had nothing to offer by way of a proven track record

If you believe one's fair worth is measured from the hours in his logbook, then perhaps we should all be on a sliding payscale based on logged hours?

But of course, GA hours wouldn't be worth as much as airline hours, so we'll need to have a multiplier.

And of course hours from the military are worth most of all.

Then we need to seperate the trash haulers from the "tactical" aviators, which are the best of the best of the best, unless you were a test pilot.

1 billion bonus points for shuttle/X-15 time.

Seriously,

Is a ex-cadet's PC easier than a DE's?

Do we sell our seats cheaper because a flight is being operated by an ex-cadet?

Does the **** stink less when it hits the fan on an ex-cadet's flight?

Whether you like it or not, our "limited" experience is sufficient to get us out and back safely, effectively, and efficiently, day after day.

Regardless of background, we operate to the same standards.

That makes us equals.


Again the question to you are Mrfox, if the package was not paid, would CX recruit and retain enough pilots? It's a simple question... any chance of answer

I stay because of the package, take away the expat benefits and I'll be out of here faster than Adolf Chen can hand out Lai Sees.

As many have already mentioned, no one is arguing for the elimination of allowances.

I can't even imagine how anyone can come to such a conclusion. How does this serve the LEPs, or ANYONE'S interest?

How did you get the impression that the LEPs are doing this out of spite?


Furthermore, following some of the above arguments, what about our based colleagues then, shouldn't they be entitled to what you already receive living in your home country (ie. 13 months and a special allowance for those who are captain). In fact you pay a much less tax rate in Hong Kong, compared to anywhere else, so why not adjust the based salaries to reflect the higher income tax. After all they are doing the same job as you, it's only fair, but I don't see you complaining about that!

Please read my replies more carefully. Although the topic of this thread was about LEPs, I have always included our based colleagues in my arguments.

What I seek is JUST pay. And justice for one is justice for none.

Local, expat, freighter, A scale, B scale, C scale, O scale, base scales X 6!!! Not to mention the currency, bonus, allowance, and tax issues you have mentioned above which divides us further and further, splintering us into bickering, self-interested groups.

What we have, and I am sure its the one thing that almost everyone can agree to, is that this is a royal hell of a mess, brought about by years of narrow, short sighted thinking, taken at the expense of our long term interest of a UNIFIED pilot body and its collective bargaining power.



We are all CX Pilot's and together we can make it better for ALL of us.

[Dragon69]

And what exactly, were the "sacrifices" you made? Did it have anything to do with, say, quality of life, monetary and emotional cost of uprooting family and self, and restarting at the bottom of the ladder due to loss of seniority and rank? Sounds familiar?

And was it because of the fact that the Cathay package can offset the above negatives that you decided to jump ship?

Please do tell if you came for more noble reasons, so we can all appreciate your "sacrifice".



Noble reasons?? WTF??? Who said anything about making a decision based on noble reasons. It's all about money money money!!!! Having said that, you have no clue, absolutely none!

Because as "Locals", we enjoy many advantages which makes Hong Kong just heaven on earth for us!

Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head:
-A unique biological preference for small living spaces. The smaller the better.
-Kids with 4 digit IQs, making education irrelevant.
-An in-built pollution filter, located between the esophagus and the lungs. Ask us to show you next time!
-And the fantastic ability to grow money on trees!

Come on, tell us what YOU love about Hong Kong!


Exactly why CX has to pay expat allowances to keep pilots here :ugh::ugh:

If I were in your shoes I would use the experience you've gained and use it to your advantage, no one said CX is the only airline job on this planet. But if you knew anything about sacrifices you would now what I am talking about.


Please read my replies more carefully. Although the topic of this thread was about LEPs, I have always included our based colleagues in my arguments.

What I seek is JUST pay. And justice for one is justice for none.



Ok cut the B:mad:S:mad:! Now who is trying to sound 'o so noble! This is all about you face it!

Again, if there were no expats in HKG, what would have been your argument for wanting to receive an expat package as a "local". Just because we are being paid an expat package as expats it has your undies in a knot!

[mrfox]

if there were no expats in HKG, what would have been your argument for wanting to receive an expat package as a "local". Just because we are being paid an expat package as expats it has your undies in a knot!


You got me.
I'm angry because I'm losing my hair, and you have a full head of hair.
My secret plan is to taint the entire city's stock of shampoo and conditioner with Nair® hair removal cream.
If I can't have hair, no one will.

[Dixi Normus]

I think the term "expat allowance" is causing the problem here. The LEPs are not seeking the get the "expat allowance" per say, just equal renumeration. As long as the basic pay + "something" is equal among all pilot. You can call that something anything you want i.e. special allowance, the LEP captains are getting this already (although it is nothing close to the expat allowance). The reason it is call "special allowance" is because the LEP captains are being "specially" screwed. The renumeration package of the FO on his crew is more than what he is getting and he is being f:mad:ed for their mistakes!

Equal renumeration for equal jobs, are the AOA against this?

[iceman50]

Dixi

What planet are you on? It is an expat allowance and if you are not an expat you will not get it!! Mr Swire will make sure of that and if he could get away with not paying the expats it, he would!! The "salaries" paid are exactly the same be it A/ B/ C or D scale, it just depends upon when you joined.:mad::mad::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Hiro Nakimura]

Those that say the AOA had nothing to do with LEPs getting the $24K special allowance when receiving BPP are 100% right. Its just an amazing coincidence that the LPF have been arguing over this for years and didn't achieve anything but JF met with the Labour Department two months ago, with CX in attendance, and it was agreed to pay the allowance - just a coincidence!

[mrfox]

Those that say the AOA had nothing to do with LEPs getting the $24K special allowance when receiving BPP are 100% right. Its just an amazing coincidence that the LPF have been arguing over this for years and didn't achieve anything but JF met with the Labour Department two months ago, with CX in attendance, and it was agreed to pay the allowance - just a coincidence!

Any details of this meeting? Seriously - I am only asking for more information so as to get a fair picture from the AOA's point of view. Who initiated the campaign within the AOA? What was the process? When did these things happen?

Confirm all Sarcastic remarks are checked closed and off.

What planet are you on? It is an expat allowance and if you are not an expat you will not get it!! Mr Swire will make sure of that and if he could get away with not paying the expats it, he would!! The "salaries" paid are exactly the same be it A/ B/ C or D scale, it just depends upon when you joined.

My motivations for supporting equal conditions for ALL CX employed pilots are two fold:
A - I am currently on one of the inferior COS, so I would like to better my livelihood by realigning my COS with the majority. This is a near term benefit.
B - When the majority (or ALL) CX pilots are employed on the same COS, then we will create true solidarity within the pilot group due to common interest. This creates a stronger union and strengthens our collective bargaining power. This is a long term benefit.

To naysayers for a common contract:
What is your motivation for being so adamantly against LEPs/based pilots/freighter pilots in getting conditions of service that are equal to yours?

There's no need to answer if your last name is Swire. (Sarcasm is back on)

[fostersnuts]

I'm a local AOA member!
Come on guys! The AOA is good for the insurance, and IS not good for much else, as far as our local issues are concerned. Their administration at the top level don't believe in any of our specifically local conditions. Even the a certain PAST "Top Dog" can be quoted in saying to one of us, that we signed the contract when we joined, so we should live with it! He really justified the AOA's existence as some form of union by saying that, didn't he!
The simple reason being that CX LEPs are not creating any market forces by the way of guys or gals leaving, to convince the company to improve the local package. No matter whom is the "Goat head" at the helm for our negotiations, we will only get served dog meat unless CX is forced to give more, as was the case by the labor tribuneral in regards to the special allowance with BPP(It's for ALL CX level D staff, not just local captains).

No point in matching these immature tit for tat verbal dribbles!:yuk:

[Hiro Nakimura]

Do what I did - ring and ask and the AOA will confirm the meeting. Then ask them why it was only backdated to 1st July and they will tell you there was no one prepared to be a plaintiff. The case was a certainty and the result would have been backpayed housing allowance into the millions. Still all the non members can continue to believe it had nothing to do with the AOA.

[mrfox]

Good idea.

Dear AOA,

I am a Cathay pilot emailing you with concern for the recently negotiated bypass allowance for Cathay pilots on local contracts.

I would like to request some information regarding the AOA's involvement in the said negotiations.

Suspicions abound that the negotiations between the LEPs, Cathay, and the Labour tribunal had been on-going for some time, with negligible AOA contribution, and that the AOA merely swooped in at the last minute and took undue credit for the "kill".

I'd like to get the AOA's side of the story.

When did the AOA get involve in the issue? Through what process was the issue raised, and by whom? What specific actions did the AOA take in this matter. and when? Are there any dated records, documentation, communicates, meeting minutes, etc, regarding the AOA's involvement that can be made available to myself and the rest of the pilot body? It'd really help to shed some light on the issue.

Please substitute appropriate summaries if actual documentation cannot be made available.

Thank you for your help.

Sincerely,
CX Pilot

[SMOC]

mrfox,

Have you actually sent that letter or hoping an AOA member in the know will answer here?

Cheers SMOC

[Liam Gallagher]

We both know that the reason you don't want to answer my question is that to do so will de-base your whole argument.

I have no issue with you trying to improve your COS.... just spare me the moral crusade...

PS. In your crusade do you include the Cabin Crew, Engineers; or does their inclusion not suit your purposes...?

[TGIG]

The core issue has always been doing the same job with vastly different remuneration + allowances, or even with a senior rank offered the same pay as someone more junior.
The inclusion of cc and engineers does not dilute this issue, if anything it strengthen the fact that something should be done to increase workplace equality. Your argument can be extended to office workers, managers, cleaners or whatever. So lets just sit on our hands and pretend it's not happening because it's too big to deal with?
This issue is bigger than just pilots and more to do with the way Hong Kong allows itself to be treated.

[Jet-Rage]

What the LEPs are most disadvantaged by is the fact that their overall income is effectively less than half what an expat based in Hong Kong gets (for an FO)! All other benefits may be the same but it is the housing that is worth the most. In the case of F/O's the rent free zone alone is more than a standard post QL salary. It doesn't matter under what title you assign the allowance but income is income! The government taxes it so it is money into the paycheck. Were the housing allowance (and education allowance) not such a big sum it would not be reasonable for LEPs to feel hard done by. However, it is a considerable sum and over a career it is worth many millions of dollars.

Most of you know well or have flown with many LEPs and you will see that their reasonable expectations out of a career with CX is not so different to anyone elses. Many have returned from overseas and and not that local, especially the non-chinese LEPs. Why should they have to pay the cost of their training in Adelaide for their entire careers?

BA cadets are on a lower deal for the first 5 years of their career and then are deemed to have paid back the company's investment in their training. For GUlf Air, Qatar and Etihad cadets their penalty period is about 1-2 years before they get full housing and benefits etc. Why should CX cadets pay off this debt for a whole lifetime?

Based pilots don't get housing but at least they can return to HKG one day if they so choose to tap into the greater salary and allowances and even tap into the potentially lucrative property market. So many guys have maid a mint in HKG from property and thus their housing allowances. Locals get screwed both ends of the basing system whether based in HKG or elsewhere. Why don't they get expat housing then on a base since afterall they will then become expats? They are always locals wherever they go.

They should join the Union and support all the other important issues and efforts made by the AOA but the union itself needs to extend an olive branch to this growing group by committing itself to getting full benefits for the LEP boys at some stage of their career. When are they deemed to have paid back their training? Financially at about the 3 year mark i.e. JFO. Psychologically for the management maybe much later. However, on reaching the highest rank of Captain surely they must be deemed to have reached the point at which they have not only served the company well but also saved them enough money.

Maybe not allowances across the board for all LEPs but a point in time needs to be established at when they are considered to have done their time like all other pilots and deserve the standard Cathay deal for a Hong Kong base.